Originally posted by Badaboom Has this subject been talked about yet? If you die, is the death punishing in terms of harsh death penalties or corpse retrieval? I'm interested in this game but fear that the devs will candy coat the death system like every other current MMO to date.
THE $%^& I CARE. Is that really important to you at this stage?
Originally posted by Badaboom Has this subject been talked about yet? If you die, is the death punishing in terms of harsh death penalties or corpse retrieval? I'm interested in this game but fear that the devs will candy coat the death system like every other current MMO to date.
Of course there won't be a harsh death penalty. You think the same people that obliterated class roles and other players distinctions, as well as end game raiding, is really going to include a harsh death penalty. It runs completely contrary to their next gen WoWified paradigm.
This game literally is nothing like WoW! You couldn't make two games from the same genre anymore different if you tried!
{ Mod Edit }
I did not say wow clone, I said wowified paradigm. I realize paradigm is probably beyond your vocabulary, but it describes the underlying philosophy that dictates how their game works. The choices they make regarding whether the game will be easy or hard, require class balance, the level players will have to work with others, and the amount of strategy and interpersonal relations and socializing the game requires.
SOE in an effort to cater to the lowest common denominators have simply done away with the systems that WoW spent the last decade making so easy. Its the same line of thinking, but different mechanics.
{ Mod Edit }
Yes, I know what that means, but I question if you do. Paradigm is a framework containing the basic assumptions, ways of thinking, and methodology that are commonly accepted. The problem is you are only listing one element of WoW that you have an issue with, the difficulty. That is not the correct usage in this case.
Also, to say that it easy difficulty is synonymous with WoW is disingenuous at best.
The difficulty factor is the symptom, the problem is their way of thinking and how it affects the way games work as a whole.
Simply put, this line of thinking when creating MMOs today is how to make them accessible to as many players as possible, no matter what the cost.
If it means making 50 man raids 25 man raids, so be it. If it means making 25 man raids 10 man raids, so be it. If it means a system where you can queue up into a pick up raid at any time, so be it. If it means making the raids easy enough to accommodate a random group of 10 players where half of them are incompetent, no problem. Always accommodate the lowest common denominator. This is the mantra of the gaming industry in 2013.
Its the same line of thinking that causes them to remove levels, remove end game, remove required roles, remove static classes and remove any other mechanisms that may stand in the way of independent success.
So people actually wonder if there be harsh death penalties? As long as they maintain this philosophy, of course there wont be!
The sandbox community is very small! It is a niche market within a niche MMO market. That is the exact opposite of what you would do if you were making an MMO to be widely accessible.
I bet you 100$ that there will be no worse punishment then perhaps a corpse run.
Death as a time sink is pretty much.. well dead.
Now this is a funny statement. Corpse run as it was in WoW, yes that was a joke. Corpse run as it was in EQ and early EQ2, now that was harsh!
I remember many time, dying way down in a dungeon and not being able to get back to my corpse, or having to call guild mates to help me. It's a harsh penalty when they strip you of your gear, and You have to fight down 4 layers of dungeon, to find your corpse.
The good part was people worked together and planned out ever encounter like a team, because no one wanted to die.
The bad part was, it often ended a gaming session with friends because the time need for the corpse run was more then one or two members had to play.
For the original poster, the days of harsh death penalties are gone for main stream MMOs. You will never again see players forced to plan encounters in PUGS due to fear of dying. THE ZERG RULES apply now!
If you like planned encounters best to join a guild or play with friends.
My biggest fear is, will there be any need to plan? GW2 has eliminated the need to plan. Rift, I soloed the whole game in about 3 weeks of casual playing. TSW was the best out of the bunch, but still was not a lot of planning, was more gear dependant.
I bet you 100$ that there will be no worse punishment then perhaps a corpse run.
Death as a time sink is pretty much.. well dead.
Now this is a funny statement. Corpse run as it was in WoW, yes that was a joke. Corpse run as it was in EQ and early EQ2, now that was harsh!
I remember many time, dying way down in a dungeon and not being able to get back to my corpse, or having to call guild mates to help me. It's a harsh penalty when they strip you of your gear, and You have to fight down 4 layers of dungeon, to find your corpse.
The good part was people worked together and planned out ever encounter like a team, because no one wanted to die.
The bad part was, it often ended a gaming session with friends because the time need for the corpse run was more then one or two members had to play.
For the original poster, the days of harsh death penalties are gone for main stream MMOs. You will never again see players forced to plan encounters in PUGS due to fear of dying. THE ZERG RULES apply now!
If you like planned encounters best to join a guild or play with friends.
My biggest fear is, will there be any need to plan? GW2 has eliminated the need to plan. Rift, I soloed the whole game in about 3 weeks of casual playing. TSW was the best out of the bunch, but still was not a lot of planning, was more gear dependant.
The only thing good about that tedious trash mechanic is that it is long since outdated.
Originally posted by Badaboom Has this subject been talked about yet? If you die, is the death punishing in terms of harsh death penalties or corpse retrieval? I'm interested in this game but fear that the devs will candy coat the death system like every other current MMO to date.
Of course there won't be a harsh death penalty. You think the same people that obliterated class roles and other players distinctions, as well as end game raiding, is really going to include a harsh death penalty. It runs completely contrary to their next gen WoWified paradigm.
This game literally is nothing like WoW! You couldn't make two games from the same genre anymore different if you tried!
{ Mod Edit }
I did not say wow clone, I said wowified paradigm. I realize paradigm is probably beyond your vocabulary, but it describes the underlying philosophy that dictates how their game works. The choices they make regarding whether the game will be easy or hard, require class balance, the level players will have to work with others, and the amount of strategy and interpersonal relations and socializing the game requires.
SOE in an effort to cater to the lowest common denominators have simply done away with the systems that WoW spent the last decade making so easy. Its the same line of thinking, but different mechanics.
{ Mod Edit }
Yes, I know what that means, but I question if you do. Paradigm is a framework containing the basic assumptions, ways of thinking, and methodology that are commonly accepted. The problem is you are only listing one element of WoW that you have an issue with, the difficulty. That is not the correct usage in this case.
Also, to say that it easy difficulty is synonymous with WoW is disingenuous at best.
The difficulty factor is the symptom, the problem is their way of thinking and how it affects the way games work as a whole.
Simply put, this line of thinking when creating MMOs today is how to make them accessible to as many players as possible, no matter what the cost.
If it means making 50 man raids 25 man raids, so be it. If it means making 25 man raids 10 man raids, so be it. If it means a system where you can queue up into a pick up raid at any time, so be it. If it means making the raids easy enough to accommodate a random group of 10 players where half of them are incompetent, no problem. Always accommodate the lowest common denominator. This is the mantra of the gaming industry in 2013.
Its the same line of thinking that causes them to remove levels, remove end game, remove required roles, remove static classes and remove any other mechanisms that may stand in the way of independent success.
So people actually wonder if there be harsh death penalties? As long as they maintain this philosophy, of course there wont be!
The sandbox community is very small! It is a niche market within a niche MMO market. That is the exact opposite of what you would do if you were making an MMO to be widely accessible.
Everquest Next is nothing like any other sandbox game ever created. Thats a straw dummy argument. Everquest is being created for mass appeal in every way possible. If you think anything about EQ Next is going to be niche, well then theres just no point in this conversation going any further.
Originally posted by Badaboom Has this subject been talked about yet? If you die, is the death punishing in terms of harsh death penalties or corpse retrieval? I'm interested in this game but fear that the devs will candy coat the death system like every other current MMO to date.
Of course there won't be a harsh death penalty. You think the same people that obliterated class roles and other players distinctions, as well as end game raiding, is really going to include a harsh death penalty. It runs completely contrary to their next gen WoWified paradigm.
This game literally is nothing like WoW! You couldn't make two games from the same genre anymore different if you tried!
{ Mod Edit }
I did not say wow clone, I said wowified paradigm. I realize paradigm is probably beyond your vocabulary, but it describes the underlying philosophy that dictates how their game works. The choices they make regarding whether the game will be easy or hard, require class balance, the level players will have to work with others, and the amount of strategy and interpersonal relations and socializing the game requires.
SOE in an effort to cater to the lowest common denominators have simply done away with the systems that WoW spent the last decade making so easy. Its the same line of thinking, but different mechanics.
{ Mod Edit }
Yes, I know what that means, but I question if you do. Paradigm is a framework containing the basic assumptions, ways of thinking, and methodology that are commonly accepted. The problem is you are only listing one element of WoW that you have an issue with, the difficulty. That is not the correct usage in this case.
Also, to say that it easy difficulty is synonymous with WoW is disingenuous at best.
The difficulty factor is the symptom, the problem is their way of thinking and how it affects the way games work as a whole.
Simply put, this line of thinking when creating MMOs today is how to make them accessible to as many players as possible, no matter what the cost.
If it means making 50 man raids 25 man raids, so be it. If it means making 25 man raids 10 man raids, so be it. If it means a system where you can queue up into a pick up raid at any time, so be it. If it means making the raids easy enough to accommodate a random group of 10 players where half of them are incompetent, no problem. Always accommodate the lowest common denominator. This is the mantra of the gaming industry in 2013.
Its the same line of thinking that causes them to remove levels, remove end game, remove required roles, remove static classes and remove any other mechanisms that may stand in the way of independent success.
So people actually wonder if there be harsh death penalties? As long as they maintain this philosophy, of course there wont be!
The sandbox community is very small! It is a niche market within a niche MMO market. That is the exact opposite of what you would do if you were making an MMO to be widely accessible.
Everquest Next is nothing like any other sandbox game ever created. Thats a straw dummy argument. Everquest is being created for mass appeal in every way possible. If you think anything about EQ Next is going to be niche, well then theres just no point in this conversation going any further.
My 2 cents says.. I'm for a compromise between the old days, and current.. Losing XP was never an issue to me, it made me work all that much harder to avoid death.. It stung.. Then I see gaming friends struggle to avoid death because they just aren't twitch enough to stay out of the ground damage, or whatever excuse, and I would hate to see them get hammered by a XP penalty, but there needs to be some form.. In the end I think a good choice that is workable and stings would be monetary.. I like WoW way of ghost traveling or just rezing in the graveyard, but the "bling" penalty needs to be harder.. Maybe just double the cost of repairs..?
Problem with "paying" for death is that once you hit zero and your gear is fubar... Your average gamer stop playing. Potentially for ever (not to mention the most ass-backwards time sink ever... The loss of progression, XP or skill points or what ever. Now that is a good way to drive players away from the game.) So my bet is some form of rez sickness as this seems to be the most common one.
Now i know Eve have managed to keep in the race with some of the most brutal death penalties in the genre, but they are a small game with a very specific market... SoE can not limit them self in that way.
Problem with "paying" for death is that once you hit zero and your gear is fubar... Your average gamer stop playing. Potentially for ever (not to mention the most ass-backwards time sink ever... The loss of progression, XP or skill points or what ever. Now that is a good way to drive players away from the game.) So my bet is some form of rez sickness as this seems to be the most common one.
Now i know Eve have managed to keep in the race with some of the most brutal death penalties in the genre, but they are a small game with a very specific market... SoE can not limit them self in that way.
Ya, anything but making death meaningful and risking gameplay thats rewarding.
I agree though, EQ Next will be nothing like the niche games of the past that risked alienating some players to appeal to a particular crowd. I personally think those games are dead and gone. They only exist in the memories of players and the dreams of underfunded indie projects destined to fail.
Problem with "paying" for death is that once you hit zero and your gear is fubar... Your average gamer stop playing. Potentially for ever (not to mention the most ass-backwards time sink ever... The loss of progression, XP or skill points or what ever. Now that is a good way to drive players away from the game.) So my bet is some form of rez sickness as this seems to be the most common one.
Now i know Eve have managed to keep in the race with some of the most brutal death penalties in the genre, but they are a small game with a very specific market... SoE can not limit them self in that way.
I like the idea of a rez sickness too.. I forgot about that.. I would have the sickness tho be reduces by certain classes.. So if a healer rezes you.. your sickness is reduced by 90% or eliminated all together..
Originally posted by Telondariel ...It could be a hardcore server, or maybe at character creation you have a choice of options to set your own difficulty, or..whatever they decide to throw at us.
No offense Telondriel, but self-imposed limitations would never work. If a hardcore server launches, I've no doubt many will flock to it. If, instead, players can opt whether or not to handicap their character at creation, you can be sure that no one will.
Functionally, of course, those two amount to exactly the same thing.
not so.
It could be possible to make it so a "hardcore" server also allows for different freedoms/choices.
They would have to be different or else what you say would be true and there wouldn't be a point.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Talinthis ah the good old days.. when you know all hope is lost and you do a /loc so you can locate yourself where you died..
LOL I miss that too. Most gamers today have no idea what fear is.
Originally posted by GrayKodiak Originally posted by DullahanOriginally posted by BadaboomHas this subject been talked about yet? If you die, is the death punishing in terms of harsh death penalties or corpse retrieval? I'm interested in this game but fear that the devs will candy coat the death system like every other current MMO to date.
Of course there won't be a harsh death penalty. You think the same people that obliterated class roles and other players distinctions, as well as end game raiding, is really going to include a harsh death penalty. It runs completely contrary to their next gen WoWified paradigm.Did you just accuse them of removing WoW like mechanics and call the program WoWified at the same time?
Well done.
Let me rephrase since you missed it. He said that EQN will almost certainly have wow-like mechanics (no death penalty) because, based on releases, SOE changed to a wow mindset many years ago.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Very interesting points of view from everyone. I'm curious though as to why some of you people think that challenge & risk cannot be in a mainstream game? I will simply state this; more people will quit a game because they are bored (ie, not challenged) than they will quit a game because it is too hard.
I really doubt it will have any penalty at all...Even if it does they will have some out so that it wont be like it used t obe in old EQ1 where you lost 10% XP and even levels.....Death penalties could be an area though where they make you use the cash shop or else.
Originally posted by Theocritus I really doubt it will have any penalty at all...Even if it does they will have some out so that it wont be like it used t obe in old EQ1 where you lost 10% XP and even levels.....Death penalties could be an area though where they make you use the cash shop or else.
Looks like no one knows yet, but I would like to see 5% experience penalty and a "naked" corpse/armor retrieval but your corpse respawns (along with some armor decay) at the bind point after an hour.
It seems to me that Mr. Georgeson just wants to say "Yes!" to everything. Can I do A, B, &C? "YES!". And all these "YES's" seem to be for the sole purpose of appealing to as many people as possible. Yet, something as simple as the death penalty can hold sway over SO much.
Since I currently play EVE online, I'm going to use this as an example of a game achieving an acceptable death penalty. Ofc I have played EQ, EQ2 also so I'm very familiar with death penalties.
When your ship is blown up in EVE, it's gone. Poof. If you are flying a ship that took you 3 days or 3 weeks worth of playing to earn. Tough. Poof. If your pod ejects and your head is full of expensive implants that cost more than the ship you were flying and you fail to warp away safely....Poof. It's actually a double tiered death penalty. It can be bad, and it can be worse. I've lost a LOT of ships and it has cost me billions of ISK (that's EVE money just in case you aren't familiar).
BUT, you can also get directly into another ship and fly out immediately and join the battle again if you are close enough to a station you can reship at. You don't really lose any play time.
And to boot the ENTIRE ECONOMY is fueled by this death penalty. You lose stuff, you gotta buy more. People gotta manufacture it, loot it, steal it, blow up other ships and take theirs, whatever.
So death sucks, but that's part of the game, you accept it...but there are greater rewards if you don't die. Basically, the less you die, the less time you have to spend earning ISK and the more you get to PVP (if that's your thing, and it is mine). But even the earning ISK part can be fun.
But, alas, it's not a game for everyone. You gotta cross over the learning curve hump, and 9 out of 10 people never do. They do continue to grow and new players join all the time. AND it's a 10 year old game.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
I hope they include an option to check so that you'll have to corpse run and retrieve your gear. Another option could be perma-death for that character. So on and so forth. Then in three months I hope they show percentage that choose one or more of those options.
Well, the lead producer has already indicated that the game is not hard core (and being in the industry and a hobbyist for as long as he has been he knows what hard core is) so I sincerely doubt we will see a harsh death penalty much less any form of corpse running. Do you really want those kinds of time sinks and set backs in a game for casual players with limited time where the goal is to give people some hack and slash fun for a couple of hours while they chug a beer before going to bed every other day? Considering I am actually thankful they are valuing crafting and resource gathering so heavily with landmark. Obviously as an MMORPG they are looking to include a breadth of activities but the level of depth from them all is a thing I will question up to release based on what they are saying. It is what it is.
With every super duper edition box set the player will receive One (1) patented simulated death throes attachment. The player will have the freedom to attach the clamps to any part of his or her body, and only then will be able to log on to the Super Hard Core server. The duration and amperage of the electric shock will depend on damage dealt and type of damage.
I would not be surprised if it is more like Aion, where there is a cash and xp penalty (yeah, I know there are no levels) for dying. I don't know if corpse runs will appeal to many players, but they seemed to insinuate there would be a penalty.
Comments
THE $%^& I CARE. Is that really important to you at this stage?
The sandbox community is very small! It is a niche market within a niche MMO market. That is the exact opposite of what you would do if you were making an MMO to be widely accessible.
Now this is a funny statement. Corpse run as it was in WoW, yes that was a joke. Corpse run as it was in EQ and early EQ2, now that was harsh!
I remember many time, dying way down in a dungeon and not being able to get back to my corpse, or having to call guild mates to help me. It's a harsh penalty when they strip you of your gear, and You have to fight down 4 layers of dungeon, to find your corpse.
The good part was people worked together and planned out ever encounter like a team, because no one wanted to die.
The bad part was, it often ended a gaming session with friends because the time need for the corpse run was more then one or two members had to play.
For the original poster, the days of harsh death penalties are gone for main stream MMOs. You will never again see players forced to plan encounters in PUGS due to fear of dying. THE ZERG RULES apply now!
If you like planned encounters best to join a guild or play with friends.
My biggest fear is, will there be any need to plan? GW2 has eliminated the need to plan. Rift, I soloed the whole game in about 3 weeks of casual playing. TSW was the best out of the bunch, but still was not a lot of planning, was more gear dependant.
The only thing good about that tedious trash mechanic is that it is long since outdated.
Everquest Next is nothing like any other sandbox game ever created. Thats a straw dummy argument. Everquest is being created for mass appeal in every way possible. If you think anything about EQ Next is going to be niche, well then theres just no point in this conversation going any further.
EQNext isn't a sandbox... WHAT!?
Problem with "paying" for death is that once you hit zero and your gear is fubar... Your average gamer stop playing. Potentially for ever (not to mention the most ass-backwards time sink ever... The loss of progression, XP or skill points or what ever. Now that is a good way to drive players away from the game.) So my bet is some form of rez sickness as this seems to be the most common one.
Now i know Eve have managed to keep in the race with some of the most brutal death penalties in the genre, but they are a small game with a very specific market... SoE can not limit them self in that way.
This have been a good conversation
Ya, anything but making death meaningful and risking gameplay thats rewarding.
I agree though, EQ Next will be nothing like the niche games of the past that risked alienating some players to appeal to a particular crowd. I personally think those games are dead and gone. They only exist in the memories of players and the dreams of underfunded indie projects destined to fail.
I like the idea of a rez sickness too.. I forgot about that.. I would have the sickness tho be reduces by certain classes.. So if a healer rezes you.. your sickness is reduced by 90% or eliminated all together..
not so.
It could be possible to make it so a "hardcore" server also allows for different freedoms/choices.
They would have to be different or else what you say would be true and there wouldn't be a point.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
LOL I miss that too. Most gamers today have no idea what fear is.
Of course there won't be a harsh death penalty. You think the same people that obliterated class roles and other players distinctions, as well as end game raiding, is really going to include a harsh death penalty. It runs completely contrary to their next gen WoWified paradigm.Did you just accuse them of removing WoW like mechanics and call the program WoWified at the same time?
Well done.
Let me rephrase since you missed it. He said that EQN will almost certainly have wow-like mechanics (no death penalty) because, based on releases, SOE changed to a wow mindset many years ago.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Harsh death penalties are just another way for Group centric players to push their Grouping over Solo agenda.
"You want to solo...fine...but if you die, there will be a harsh death penalty! Strength in numbers my friend...group up and live!!"
That would be great.
10 resurrection stones - $10
It seems to me that Mr. Georgeson just wants to say "Yes!" to everything. Can I do A, B, &C? "YES!". And all these "YES's" seem to be for the sole purpose of appealing to as many people as possible. Yet, something as simple as the death penalty can hold sway over SO much.
Since I currently play EVE online, I'm going to use this as an example of a game achieving an acceptable death penalty. Ofc I have played EQ, EQ2 also so I'm very familiar with death penalties.
When your ship is blown up in EVE, it's gone. Poof. If you are flying a ship that took you 3 days or 3 weeks worth of playing to earn. Tough. Poof. If your pod ejects and your head is full of expensive implants that cost more than the ship you were flying and you fail to warp away safely....Poof. It's actually a double tiered death penalty. It can be bad, and it can be worse. I've lost a LOT of ships and it has cost me billions of ISK (that's EVE money just in case you aren't familiar).
BUT, you can also get directly into another ship and fly out immediately and join the battle again if you are close enough to a station you can reship at. You don't really lose any play time.
And to boot the ENTIRE ECONOMY is fueled by this death penalty. You lose stuff, you gotta buy more. People gotta manufacture it, loot it, steal it, blow up other ships and take theirs, whatever.
So death sucks, but that's part of the game, you accept it...but there are greater rewards if you don't die. Basically, the less you die, the less time you have to spend earning ISK and the more you get to PVP (if that's your thing, and it is mine). But even the earning ISK part can be fun.
But, alas, it's not a game for everyone. You gotta cross over the learning curve hump, and 9 out of 10 people never do. They do continue to grow and new players join all the time. AND it's a 10 year old game.
Playing EVE online currently. Started MMO's with EQ Velious, played EQ2, DAoC, CoH, AO, SWG (pre NGE), Planetside, DCUO. Played briefly cause I didn't like: WAR, WoW, VG, etc. etc.
Well, the lead producer has already indicated that the game is not hard core (and being in the industry and a hobbyist for as long as he has been he knows what hard core is) so I sincerely doubt we will see a harsh death penalty much less any form of corpse running. Do you really want those kinds of time sinks and set backs in a game for casual players with limited time where the goal is to give people some hack and slash fun for a couple of hours while they chug a beer before going to bed every other day? Considering I am actually thankful they are valuing crafting and resource gathering so heavily with landmark. Obviously as an MMORPG they are looking to include a breadth of activities but the level of depth from them all is a thing I will question up to release based on what they are saying. It is what it is.
Hello
This is what I expect
With every super duper edition box set the player will receive One (1) patented simulated death throes attachment. The player will have the freedom to attach the clamps to any part of his or her body, and only then will be able to log on to the Super Hard Core server. The duration and amperage of the electric shock will depend on damage dealt and type of damage.
Welcome Home
Rev.
Players will receive no item, cash, or exp penalty.
They will however, receive a stern talking to.