I played EQ when there was non instancing and enjoyed the guild V guild aspect for end game content and I also had some memorable group instanced encounters that wouldn't have been possible in non instanced dungeons. So I would vote for instanced dungeons EXCEPT for the high end stuff for the latest expansion. This would give the high end guilds competition which is healthy. Then when a new expansion comes out , the non instanced dungeons from the previous expansion become instanced.
Anyone can enter a dungeon or even a mission area of another player or group of players.
Some dungeons drop really good and very rare loot as well. However crafting in eve online is still extremely imported mostly because of cost. The amount of work it takes to get good loot from a dungeon will translate in high market prices for this loot. Crafted items are cheaper and therefor a lot more useful for people who tent to get their ships destroyed.
Incursions are a new type of dungeon, not only can they be entered by another player like the other dungeons, these dungeons are advertised on the overview window and on the map. These dungeons don't drop loot and only award money (except for the mothership incursion site which will drop loot). The size of the group must match closely the intended group size of the incursion site, too many or too few and the award reduces in value.
If multiple groups enter a site, only the one group who has done the most damage will be awarded. This fosters competition and can be quite fun. Due too scarcity of 20 man incursions and the competition for them, people will band together to do the 40 and 60 man incursions.
Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools!
Infinite dungeons make rare/epic gear the Norm...meaning nothing is epic or rare: When you sloooow down the amount of available gear in the game everything instantly becomes more valuable and *Gasp* memorable!
So youre opposed because ...."Guild A will just camp and Kill the Skeleton King 24/7 so I'll never get to see it"
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now"
What's wrong with that is the fact that I want a chance to play the entire game if i'm paying a subscription and having raid targets always dead and unavailable to me doesn't sound fun at all.
Also consider once the "next tier" of dungeons come out, the older dungeons will clear out which will allow YOU to start farmiing those dungeons while the top tier guilds farm the new stuff. Isnt this CONSIDERBLY a better option than welfare tokens?
Why should I have to be behind othersall the time? Is it because I have a Job and Family?Instancing helps people with lives outside of games enjoy games too and not have to feel like some second class citizen to "top teir guilds" who are only top tier because they can play games all day long.
Not to mention if you kill Infinite dungeons you can kill the whole Bind on Equip feature which will allow those top guilds to sell off their old gear. This would help guilds earn money for their guild raids instead of the absoutely terrible guild feature of "spawning an extra 10% gold from nowhere" perk.
You're suggesting that the people who only get to enjoy end game content when it's old and left for them should spend all their game money to fund the "top tier guilds" that locked them out so that they can buy the gear they never had a chance to earn for themselves. Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.
Also, top tier guilds can often handle several expansions at a time, so content if all open world is locked for a very long time. Not very fun for everyone else.
I'm really curious to hear your feedback. Is being able to "Run a dungeon" worth killing so many other aspects of the MMO?
I agree that dungeons should mostly be open but end game targets (raids) should be instanced with a lock out timer on success or failure to stop them being farmed.
It bringd somthing extra to the game and makes feel like a living world kind of thing.
If someone else is there and you really want the spot then try and take it off them.. and if the game have open pvp its even better..
We all like different things tho for me its open world, full loot pvp games.. for others its fully instanced games with 0 pvp..
And how do you suggest we do that in a PVE game? talk to them? beg them? as if that is gonna work.
I come across jack asses so many times in EQ2 non instanced dungeons who camp quest spawns just to piss people off.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
It's such a double edged sword. When I played Dark Age of Camelot it was so much fun to be working your way through a dungeon and have someone ask you to stop and help them or have someone stop and help you. It felt more like a community and I talked to more people in that game than I have in any other game since.
Of course the dark side of it where the campers and griefers who you'd set up camp in a spot your group had been in for hours, or pull a train of mobs through just to kill your group just to be jerks.
Having everything instance makes the world feel closed off and less of a community to me.
The days of non-instanced dungeons might have had some issues but it had one thing that doesn't exist today - it allowed you to meet, help and in-general have an adventure where you didn't have to worry about standing around hoping the game designers made a good LFG feature.
I miss those days where you made a friend not from leet speak but from battling it out to save your toons life and their toons only to find out - that was a load of fun and we should venture more often.
Dropped, epic Gear is what kills Crafting...end of story.
So? It is not like crafting is important to combat centric MMOs anyway.
This is debatable. It all depends how Combat centric you want your game to be and how much Depth you want in it.
If a game is combat centric, by DEFINITION, combat is the core gameplay. There are plenty of games like that. Marvel Heroes, WoW, STO, NWO ......
And in those games, crafting is just not that important. In fact, Marvel Heroes has the best casual crafting system. Useful at all levels and end-game, but demand very little attention and time.
- remember in Lord of the Rings, when the fellowship is trapped in Moria and they have to escape hordes of goblins alive, and then that other fellowship came in and killed the Balrog and took the wizard epic piece, and then Gandalf had to stay there because the Balrog was on a 24 hour spawn timer? ......a.k.a. sometimes you've earned the right to face that boss you've worked so hard to get to.
Playing devil's advocate here more than anything; but just remember; there were reasons games switched to instancing - it wasn't just cruelty to their paying customers which motivated the switch.
Either way has it draw backs. Just as instanced MMORPG's make it not an MMORPG since it isn't an open world, etc.
But again...since what made MMORPG's different from console games was just that...they were living breathing worlds where the player had to maintain a reputation to get in groups, guilds, and get anywhere.
Holy fcking shit, when do people learn that "Single Player games" is not equivalent to "Console games"? FFXI, hello?
It bringd somthing extra to the game and makes feel like a living world kind of thing.
If someone else is there and you really want the spot then try and take it off them.. and if the game have open pvp its even better..
We all like different things tho for me its open world, full loot pvp games.. for others its fully instanced games with 0 pvp..
And how do you suggest we do that in a PVE game? talk to them? beg them? as if that is gonna work.
I come across jack asses so many times in EQ2 non instanced dungeons who camp quest spawns just to piss people off.
Pretty simple fix to this really, don't make the dungeon a static event that stays in one spot with enemies that stay in one spot. It sounds like the plan anyway.
It bringd somthing extra to the game and makes feel like a living world kind of thing.
If someone else is there and you really want the spot then try and take it off them.. and if the game have open pvp its even better..
We all like different things tho for me its open world, full loot pvp games.. for others its fully instanced games with 0 pvp..
are there fully instanced games with 0 pvp?
Personally, I'm not against open world non-instanced dungeons. I enjoy camping, griefing, ganking, gangbanging, ambushing, stealing, making others qq and log off... until it happens to me lol
Some day the forum world may learn that more than two states exist for most questions.
That "Opposition" word is one. "Support" might be another. In between...wow, there is a whole lot of grey-area wiggle room between.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now"
What's wrong with that is the fact that I want a chance to play the entire game if i'm paying a subscription and having raid targets always dead and unavailable to me doesn't sound fun at all.
I'm sensing exaggeration here. I'm one of the slowest and least competitive MMO gamers you'll ever meet. Even I would win claim on contested mobs/bosses, either by myself, or with a group.
But that's because, instead of saying "oh well, all the people with no lives, families or jobs are gonna dominate all that content anyway, so there's no point", I actuallygot out there and made the effort. And, even with my meager efforts at it, it paid off.
The only way raid targets are "always dead and unavailable to you" is if you're not really serious about going after them.
Also consider once the "next tier" of dungeons come out, the older dungeons will clear out which will allow YOU to start farmiing those dungeons while the top tier guilds farm the new stuff. Isnt this CONSIDERBLY a better option than welfare tokens?
Why should I have to be behind othersall the time? Is it because I have a Job and Family?Instancing helps people with lives outside of games enjoy games too and not have to feel like some second class citizen to "top teir guilds" who are only top tier because they can play games all day long.
You should always be behind the others who are putting in the time and effort necessary to achieve what they want... because they're putting in the time and effort to get what they want, and you aren't.
You also have to qualify what having a Job and Family have to do with your ability to get what you want in a MMO.
I'm sure you're scoffing right now. So I'll explain.
You're using the "job and family" bit as a convenient excuse, as do many others. However, that's all it is - an excuse. I've been in guilds/clans/etc. where the leaders themselves were business owners with wives/husbands and families. Their play time was quite limited.
The difference is, when they decided they wanted something in the game, they didn't whine on forums about "how unfair the conditions are". They focused on what they needed to and went after it.
A Clan-Mate of mine in L2 was a full-time student, and had a job... and he still managed to accomplish quite a bit, and acquired a nice collection of gear - legitimately.
A RL friend of mine had a full-time job, a wife and child to tend to. He still managed to accomplish a lot more in FFXI than I ever did... and I was single, with nothing more than a cat to take care of.
I could list many more examples.
The whole "I have a job and family!" is not a valid complaint. It's a cop-out used by those who lack the motivation or initiative to do it themselves. Blaming the content design is nothing more than using the developers as a scape-goat. It's an entitlement-play by people who want all the best stuff others get, without having to put in the same time or effort.
There are examples upon examples upon examples of people with lives, careers, families, school, etc. achieving things at the highest levels of a MMO out there. They go back as far as Ultima Online, EQ, etc.
If those people can do it, so can you, and so can anyone else. There's nothing "elite" about them. There's no "magic formula" they're using. The only differentiating factor is that while some are spending their time complaining on forums, demanding the bar be lowered so they can reach from the comfort of their entitled playstyle, others are in-game taking the initiative, working toward their goals, and getting things done.
Not to mention if you kill Infinite dungeons you can kill the whole Bind on Equip feature which will allow those top guilds to sell off their old gear. This would help guilds earn money for their guild raids instead of the absoutely terrible guild feature of "spawning an extra 10% gold from nowhere" perk.
You're suggesting that the people who only get to enjoy end game content when it's old and left for them should spend all their game money to fund the "top tier guilds" that locked them out so that they can buy the gear they never had a chance to earn for themselves. Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.
Also, top tier guilds can often handle several expansions at a time, so content if all open world is locked for a very long time. Not very fun for everyone else.
Again, if they can achieve all they have... then so can you. So can pretty much anyone. Just stop looking for excuses for why you "can't", and put that effort into making it happen.
Your wife, family, job, whatever are not stopping you. You are.
Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Crafting kills itself because it is basically gear that is obtained simply by farming and thus a wave of Chinese farmers will farm the mats all day, craft and sell the gear at ridiculously cheap prices. Not only can they directly sell the gear or mats, but these farmers are also the same people selling in-game currency and anyone who buys that in-game currency can simply just make themselves the most powerful character on the server by just buying gold and buying all the best gear without actually having to do anything like a dungeon.
Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools!
Infinite dungeons make rare/epic gear the Norm...meaning nothing is epic or rare: When you sloooow down the amount of available gear in the game everything instantly becomes more valauble and *Gasp* memorable!
I assume you are talking mostly about WoW in which case the gear you get in LFG isn't the best gear available, and there is lockouts so you can't just keep running raids over and over again in one weekend and get all the best gear. LFG is made for people who just want to experience content that they couldn't experience otherwise because of a lack of time. These players make up the majority of an MMO's subscription-base and keep a game alive. The hard-cores are a small minority and can hardly keep a game's servers running because they are a dying breed. Even so, the best gear is still obtained by running Heroic modes and Challenge modes that casuals still cannot do.
The best PvP gear is still obtained by having a high rating because of the rating requirements on some pieces and therefore casuals once again cannot actually have the best gear.
Your definition of "epic" is out-dated. People don't care about whether something is purple anymore because every new patch that gear isn't actually good anymore. The best gear is looked at through "iLevel" you seem to think that epic gear is easy to obtain and you are correct there is a lot of "epic" gear that is easy to obtain but nobody cares because it's not the best gear out there. It all comes down to that shiny iLevel number.
So youre opposed because ...."Guild A will just camp and Kill the Skeleton King 24/7 so I'll never get to see it"
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now"
There is nothing immersive about a bunch of fat nerds with no lives sitting in an area 24/7 and camping the boss. The first thought that crosses my mind is "wow these guys need a life and why isn't there anywhere else for me and my friends to go hunt bosses" because if you wanna talk realistic the world of this MMO would need to be MASSIVE in order to actually justify open-world dungeons and bosses and in reality the world would be so huge that people wouldn't ever notice camping because there is so many bosses and dungeons for everyone to conquer. So if you want open world shit you are gonna need a game that is actually huge, then we can talk immersion.
Also consider once the "next tier" of dungeons come out, the older dungeons will clear out which will allow YOU to start farmiing those dungeons while the top tier guilds farm the new stuff. Isnt this CONSIDERBLY a better option than welfare tokens?
Once again I assume you are talking about WoW, in which case LFG raids are released in parts while the actual normal raid is fully released. So if you wanna play the new content with LFG you won't be able to because you'll have to wait for the next section of the raid to be unlocked. The best gear once again is only rewarded by completing a raid on Heroic difficulty not LFG. Whatever welfare tokens you are talking about cannot be traded in for Heroic Raid gear.
Not to mention if you kill Infinite dungeons you can kill the whole Bind on Equip feature which will allow those top guilds to sell off their old gear. This would help guilds earn money for their guild raids instead of the absoutely terrible guild feature of "spawning an extra 10% gold from nowhere" perk.
Not sure what game you are playing at this point because you essentially want 5% of the players to be elitist guilds enjoying all the brand new content while the other 95% paying and supporting the game enjoy your hand-me-downs. Sorry, doesn't work that way in a video game. In the real world it makes sense that 5% are the wealthiest and the rest are not nearly as wealthy because it's the real world it's not a video game. In the real world some of us are born into rich families and some of us are born into poverty. Life isn't fair. But in a video game where every single person is basically just some cartoon character born in the same starting noob zone running around killing stuff while paying $15 a month you are always going to be equal to everyone else who is paying $15 a month.
I know what kind of person you are and it's pretty obvious to everyone else as well. You come of across an elitist prick who couldn't become what he wanted to be in real life and now wants his 2nd chance at being a hotshot in a video game. It is so obvious that you want to be an elite member of something. You probably wish you finished college and got a really good job that allowed you to be a part of the wealthy elite minority but somewhere along the line you failed. You have a decent or shitty job now, but you aren't living life to the fullest. You do however believe that if a video game came out that had as many people as WoW 7.7 million people playing the same game and if you could be part of a 5% in that game where you have the best gear, you sell your used gear to noobs, you control the server's bosses and thus your guild has all the best drops which they use to conquer even stronger bosses, in a never-ending chain of you being a big bad king of your server with all the bitches and hoes.
Too bad, it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Stop crying for that "hard-core" game with all these "hard-core" elitist perks. It's simply never going to happen and even if it does happen the game will have less than 500 people playing it and you probably won't feel satisfied being the king of only 500 elitists much like yourself. It will be one giant circle jerk for you guys.
Get a life man. Seriously go get an education, and do something with your life. Buy a ferarri and join a yacht clumb and you will feel rich and powerful. You can start a business and be the ruler of all the minimum wage illegals you want. You will feel powerful.
But sitting here everyday crying for an MMO that will help you feel like a king is pathetic and embarrassing.
tl;dr A video game is not real life. Stop trying to apply the notion that "time and effort = success" to video games. This can be true to an extent, but to the extreme that you losers want isn't going to ever happen because this isn't real life. I suggest you put in a lot of time and effort in your real life and you can enjoy all the finer things in real life. Because let's fact it most of the people wanting these elite games are sitting in their mom's basement or living a lonely unfulfilled life. I seriously recommend you guys try studying books and you will be rewarded with As and high GPAs. With these high GPAs you can get into a fancy college and earn a ding ding FANCY degree! With that fancy degree you can earn a fancy job with fancy perks and fancy money. You will feel like a super star if you do all this. Hell, you guys make it sound so easy right?
I've read the previous posts with people saying things like "well too bad if you have kids and bla bla bla because people putting in more time should be rewarded more than you in this game" I suggest these same people try to use this logic in real life. Apply yourselves you 40 year old losers go back to college.
Games will always be casual.
There is a few games that can be considered eSports and that's different because they are sports.
But MMOs are literally made for casuals. There is nothing hard about an MMO, period. I have been playing MMOs for over 10 years now and I gotta say that I've never once felt anything challenging about an MMO. It's just a giant farm fest that is mentally relaxing because you get rewarded for doing stupid shit like getting 40 people together to beat on a stupid boss with stupid mechanics that easy to learn and execute.
Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Crafting kills itself because it is basically gear that is obtained simply by farming and thus a wave of Chinese farmers will farm the mats all day, craft and sell the gear at ridiculously cheap prices. Not only can they directly sell the gear or mats, but these farmers are also the same people selling in-game currency and anyone who buys that in-game currency can simply just make themselves the most powerful character on the server by just buying gold and buying all the best gear without actually having to do anything like a dungeon.
Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools!
Infinite dungeons make rare/epic gear the Norm...meaning nothing is epic or rare: When you sloooow down the amount of available gear in the game everything instantly becomes more valauble and *Gasp* memorable!
I assume you are talking mostly about WoW in which case the gear you get in LFG isn't the best gear available, and there is lockouts so you can't just keep running raids over and over again in one weekend and get all the best gear. LFG is made for people who just want to experience content that they couldn't experience otherwise because of a lack of time. These players make up the majority of an MMO's subscription-base and keep a game alive. The hard-cores are a small minority and can hardly keep a game's servers running because they are a dying breed. Even so, the best gear is still obtained by running Heroic modes and Challenge modes that casuals still cannot do.
The best PvP gear is still obtained by having a high rating because of the rating requirements on some pieces and therefore casuals once again cannot actually have the best gear.
Your definition of "epic" is out-dated. People don't care about whether something is purple anymore because every new patch that gear isn't actually good anymore. The best gear is looked at through "iLevel" you seem to think that epic gear is easy to obtain and you are correct there is a lot of "epic" gear that is easy to obtain but nobody cares because it's not the best gear out there. It all comes down to that shiny iLevel number.
So youre opposed because ...."Guild A will just camp and Kill the Skeleton King 24/7 so I'll never get to see it"
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now"
There is nothing immersive about a bunch of fat nerds with no lives sitting in an area 24/7 and camping the boss. The first thought that crosses my mind is "wow these guys need a life and why isn't there anywhere else for me and my friends to go hunt bosses" because if you wanna talk realistic the world of this MMO would need to be MASSIVE in order to actually justify open-world dungeons and bosses and in reality the world would be so huge that people wouldn't ever notice camping because there is so many bosses and dungeons for everyone to conquer. So if you want open world shit you are gonna need a game that is actually huge, then we can talk immersion.
Also consider once the "next tier" of dungeons come out, the older dungeons will clear out which will allow YOU to start farmiing those dungeons while the top tier guilds farm the new stuff. Isnt this CONSIDERBLY a better option than welfare tokens?
Once again I assume you are talking about WoW, in which case LFG raids are released in parts while the actual normal raid is fully released. So if you wanna play the new content with LFG you won't be able to because you'll have to wait for the next section of the raid to be unlocked. The best gear once again is only rewarded by completing a raid on Heroic difficulty not LFG. Whatever welfare tokens you are talking about cannot be traded in for Heroic Raid gear.
Not to mention if you kill Infinite dungeons you can kill the whole Bind on Equip feature which will allow those top guilds to sell off their old gear. This would help guilds earn money for their guild raids instead of the absoutely terrible guild feature of "spawning an extra 10% gold from nowhere" perk.
Not sure what game you are playing at this point because you essentially want 5% of the players to be elitist guilds enjoying all the brand new content while the other 95% paying and supporting the game enjoy your hand-me-downs. Sorry, doesn't work that way in a video game. In the real world it makes sense that 5% are the wealthiest and the rest are not nearly as wealthy because it's the real world it's not a video game. In the real world some of us are born into rich families and some of us are born into poverty. Life isn't fair. But in a video game where every single person is basically just some cartoon character born in the same starting noob zone running around killing stuff while paying $15 a month you are always going to be equal to everyone else who is paying $15 a month.
I know what kind of person you are and it's pretty obvious to everyone else as well. You come of across an elitist prick who couldn't become what he wanted to be in real life and now wants his 2nd chance at being a hotshot in a video game. It is so obvious that you want to be an elite member of something. You probably wish you finished college and got a really good job that allowed you to be a part of the wealthy elite minority but somewhere along the line you failed. You have a decent or shitty job now, but you aren't living life to the fullest. You do however believe that if a video game came out that had as many people as WoW 7.7 million people playing the same game and if you could be part of a 5% in that game where you have the best gear, you sell your used gear to noobs, you control the server's bosses and thus your guild has all the best drops which they use to conquer even stronger bosses, in a never-ending chain of you being a big bad king of your server with all the bitches and hoes.
Too bad, it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Stop crying for that "hard-core" game with all these "hard-core" elitist perks. It's simply never going to happen and even if it does happen the game will have less than 500 people playing it and you probably won't feel satisfied being the king of only 500 elitists much like yourself. It will be one giant circle jerk for you guys.
Get a life man. Seriously go get an education, and do something with your life. Buy a ferarri and join a yacht clumb and you will feel rich and powerful. You can start a business and be the ruler of all the minimum wage illegals you want. You will feel powerful.
But sitting here everyday crying for an MMO that will help you feel like a king is pathetic and embarrassing.
So....that's a "no" for you on the Open World Dungeon thing...
So....that's a "no" for you on the Open World Dungeon thing...
Actually, somewhere inside that shit I typed up I did mention that if the World is big enough I'd say yes to Open World Dungeon/Bosses.
But I bet the OP wouldn't like that. Because the main reason anyone wants open world is to be an elitist prick. I for one would love open world stuff but it needs to be done correctly so you don't have a bunch of fatasses camping places or worse chinese farmers.
So....that's a "no" for you on the Open World Dungeon thing...
Actually, somewhere inside that shit I typed up I did mention that if the World is big enough I'd say yes to Open World Dungeon/Bosses.
But I bet the OP wouldn't like that. Because the main reason anyone wants open world is to be an elitist prick. I for one would love open world stuff but it needs to be done correctly so you don't have a bunch of fatasses camping places or worse chinese farmers.
Much easier to just have instances. That is why most MMOs have lots of instances. You can control interactions between players and reduce the undesirable ones to a minimal.
I fully support open world non-instanced dungeons above all because I like competition and don't want things handed to me. Everything shouldn't be a walk in the park, if I only have 2 hours a night to play I shouldn't have the best gear in the game, nor expect to.
It's like getting upset at someone because they caught more big fish than you, even though they have been there since 5AM and you show up at noon. Is it their fault they have more time to do what they love?
I fully support open world non-instanced dungeons above all because I like competition and don't want things handed to me. Everything shouldn't be a walk in the park, if I only have 2 hours a night to play I shouldn't have the best gear in the game, nor expect to.
You are confused between challenge and competition. You don't need one for the other. I bet you are not good enough to beat Sunwell back in WOW BC .... and while it is challenging, there is zero competition.
I fully support open world non-instanced dungeons above all because I like competition and don't want things handed to me. Everything shouldn't be a walk in the park, if I only have 2 hours a night to play I shouldn't have the best gear in the game, nor expect to.
You are confused between challenge and competition. You don't need one for the other. I bet you are not good enough to beat Sunwell back in WOW BC .... and while it is challenging, there is zero competition.
No I meant competition. For me, challenging content is expected in games. My first and favorite MMO was FFXI which had very challenging content.
The one thing I have always despised about MMO's is the mob respawn. I kill something and 5 min later is right back in the same spot. HOw can a game ever be immersive with that happening?
Instances provide some measure of immersion. Things in the instance stay dead till you are done, usually. I can really appreciate the need having some instancing.
Comments
EVE Online has open world non-instanced dungeons.
Anyone can enter a dungeon or even a mission area of another player or group of players.
Some dungeons drop really good and very rare loot as well. However crafting in eve online is still extremely imported mostly because of cost. The amount of work it takes to get good loot from a dungeon will translate in high market prices for this loot. Crafted items are cheaper and therefor a lot more useful for people who tent to get their ships destroyed.
Incursions are a new type of dungeon, not only can they be entered by another player like the other dungeons, these dungeons are advertised on the overview window and on the map. These dungeons don't drop loot and only award money (except for the mothership incursion site which will drop loot). The size of the group must match closely the intended group size of the incursion site, too many or too few and the award reduces in value.
If multiple groups enter a site, only the one group who has done the most damage will be awarded. This fosters competition and can be quite fun. Due too scarcity of 20 man incursions and the competition for them, people will band together to do the 40 and 60 man incursions.
non-instanced for me...
It bringd somthing extra to the game and makes feel like a living world kind of thing.
If someone else is there and you really want the spot then try and take it off them.. and if the game have open pvp its even better..
We all like different things tho for me its open world, full loot pvp games.. for others its fully instanced games with 0 pvp..
And how do you suggest we do that in a PVE game? talk to them? beg them? as if that is gonna work.
I come across jack asses so many times in EQ2 non instanced dungeons who camp quest spawns just to piss people off.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
It's such a double edged sword. When I played Dark Age of Camelot it was so much fun to be working your way through a dungeon and have someone ask you to stop and help them or have someone stop and help you. It felt more like a community and I talked to more people in that game than I have in any other game since.
Of course the dark side of it where the campers and griefers who you'd set up camp in a spot your group had been in for hours, or pull a train of mobs through just to kill your group just to be jerks.
Having everything instance makes the world feel closed off and less of a community to me.
The days of non-instanced dungeons might have had some issues but it had one thing that doesn't exist today - it allowed you to meet, help and in-general have an adventure where you didn't have to worry about standing around hoping the game designers made a good LFG feature.
I miss those days where you made a friend not from leet speak but from battling it out to save your toons life and their toons only to find out - that was a load of fun and we should venture more often.
If a game is combat centric, by DEFINITION, combat is the core gameplay. There are plenty of games like that. Marvel Heroes, WoW, STO, NWO ......
And in those games, crafting is just not that important. In fact, Marvel Heroes has the best casual crafting system. Useful at all levels and end-game, but demand very little attention and time.
Holy fcking shit, when do people learn that "Single Player games" is not equivalent to "Console games"? FFXI, hello?
Pretty simple fix to this really, don't make the dungeon a static event that stays in one spot with enemies that stay in one spot. It sounds like the plan anyway.
are there fully instanced games with 0 pvp?
Personally, I'm not against open world non-instanced dungeons. I enjoy camping, griefing, ganking, gangbanging, ambushing, stealing, making others qq and log off... until it happens to me lol
Some day the forum world may learn that more than two states exist for most questions.
That "Opposition" word is one. "Support" might be another. In between...wow, there is a whole lot of grey-area wiggle room between.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yes. Warframe.
You are right. I chose to not devote my life to playing games. Wife, family and jobs are more important (to me) than merely games.
So my i would prefer a game i have zero commitment to, and can stop whenever my wife yells, "dinner".
Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Crafting kills itself because it is basically gear that is obtained simply by farming and thus a wave of Chinese farmers will farm the mats all day, craft and sell the gear at ridiculously cheap prices. Not only can they directly sell the gear or mats, but these farmers are also the same people selling in-game currency and anyone who buys that in-game currency can simply just make themselves the most powerful character on the server by just buying gold and buying all the best gear without actually having to do anything like a dungeon.
Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools!
Infinite dungeons make rare/epic gear the Norm...meaning nothing is epic or rare: When you sloooow down the amount of available gear in the game everything instantly becomes more valauble and *Gasp* memorable!
I assume you are talking mostly about WoW in which case the gear you get in LFG isn't the best gear available, and there is lockouts so you can't just keep running raids over and over again in one weekend and get all the best gear. LFG is made for people who just want to experience content that they couldn't experience otherwise because of a lack of time. These players make up the majority of an MMO's subscription-base and keep a game alive. The hard-cores are a small minority and can hardly keep a game's servers running because they are a dying breed. Even so, the best gear is still obtained by running Heroic modes and Challenge modes that casuals still cannot do.
The best PvP gear is still obtained by having a high rating because of the rating requirements on some pieces and therefore casuals once again cannot actually have the best gear.
Your definition of "epic" is out-dated. People don't care about whether something is purple anymore because every new patch that gear isn't actually good anymore. The best gear is looked at through "iLevel" you seem to think that epic gear is easy to obtain and you are correct there is a lot of "epic" gear that is easy to obtain but nobody cares because it's not the best gear out there. It all comes down to that shiny iLevel number.
So youre opposed because ...."Guild A will just camp and Kill the Skeleton King 24/7 so I'll never get to see it"
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now"
There is nothing immersive about a bunch of fat nerds with no lives sitting in an area 24/7 and camping the boss. The first thought that crosses my mind is "wow these guys need a life and why isn't there anywhere else for me and my friends to go hunt bosses" because if you wanna talk realistic the world of this MMO would need to be MASSIVE in order to actually justify open-world dungeons and bosses and in reality the world would be so huge that people wouldn't ever notice camping because there is so many bosses and dungeons for everyone to conquer. So if you want open world shit you are gonna need a game that is actually huge, then we can talk immersion.
Also consider once the "next tier" of dungeons come out, the older dungeons will clear out which will allow YOU to start farmiing those dungeons while the top tier guilds farm the new stuff. Isnt this CONSIDERBLY a better option than welfare tokens?
Once again I assume you are talking about WoW, in which case LFG raids are released in parts while the actual normal raid is fully released. So if you wanna play the new content with LFG you won't be able to because you'll have to wait for the next section of the raid to be unlocked. The best gear once again is only rewarded by completing a raid on Heroic difficulty not LFG. Whatever welfare tokens you are talking about cannot be traded in for Heroic Raid gear.
Not to mention if you kill Infinite dungeons you can kill the whole Bind on Equip feature which will allow those top guilds to sell off their old gear. This would help guilds earn money for their guild raids instead of the absoutely terrible guild feature of "spawning an extra 10% gold from nowhere" perk.
Not sure what game you are playing at this point because you essentially want 5% of the players to be elitist guilds enjoying all the brand new content while the other 95% paying and supporting the game enjoy your hand-me-downs. Sorry, doesn't work that way in a video game. In the real world it makes sense that 5% are the wealthiest and the rest are not nearly as wealthy because it's the real world it's not a video game. In the real world some of us are born into rich families and some of us are born into poverty. Life isn't fair. But in a video game where every single person is basically just some cartoon character born in the same starting noob zone running around killing stuff while paying $15 a month you are always going to be equal to everyone else who is paying $15 a month.
I know what kind of person you are and it's pretty obvious to everyone else as well. You come of across an elitist prick who couldn't become what he wanted to be in real life and now wants his 2nd chance at being a hotshot in a video game. It is so obvious that you want to be an elite member of something. You probably wish you finished college and got a really good job that allowed you to be a part of the wealthy elite minority but somewhere along the line you failed. You have a decent or shitty job now, but you aren't living life to the fullest. You do however believe that if a video game came out that had as many people as WoW 7.7 million people playing the same game and if you could be part of a 5% in that game where you have the best gear, you sell your used gear to noobs, you control the server's bosses and thus your guild has all the best drops which they use to conquer even stronger bosses, in a never-ending chain of you being a big bad king of your server with all the bitches and hoes.
Too bad, it's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Stop crying for that "hard-core" game with all these "hard-core" elitist perks. It's simply never going to happen and even if it does happen the game will have less than 500 people playing it and you probably won't feel satisfied being the king of only 500 elitists much like yourself. It will be one giant circle jerk for you guys.
Get a life man. Seriously go get an education, and do something with your life. Buy a ferarri and join a yacht clumb and you will feel rich and powerful. You can start a business and be the ruler of all the minimum wage illegals you want. You will feel powerful.
But sitting here everyday crying for an MMO that will help you feel like a king is pathetic and embarrassing.
tl;dr A video game is not real life. Stop trying to apply the notion that "time and effort = success" to video games. This can be true to an extent, but to the extreme that you losers want isn't going to ever happen because this isn't real life. I suggest you put in a lot of time and effort in your real life and you can enjoy all the finer things in real life. Because let's fact it most of the people wanting these elite games are sitting in their mom's basement or living a lonely unfulfilled life. I seriously recommend you guys try studying books and you will be rewarded with As and high GPAs. With these high GPAs you can get into a fancy college and earn a ding ding FANCY degree! With that fancy degree you can earn a fancy job with fancy perks and fancy money. You will feel like a super star if you do all this. Hell, you guys make it sound so easy right?
I've read the previous posts with people saying things like "well too bad if you have kids and bla bla bla because people putting in more time should be rewarded more than you in this game" I suggest these same people try to use this logic in real life. Apply yourselves you 40 year old losers go back to college.
Games will always be casual.
There is a few games that can be considered eSports and that's different because they are sports.
But MMOs are literally made for casuals. There is nothing hard about an MMO, period. I have been playing MMOs for over 10 years now and I gotta say that I've never once felt anything challenging about an MMO. It's just a giant farm fest that is mentally relaxing because you get rewarded for doing stupid shit like getting 40 people together to beat on a stupid boss with stupid mechanics that easy to learn and execute.
So....that's a "no" for you on the Open World Dungeon thing...
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Actually, somewhere inside that shit I typed up I did mention that if the World is big enough I'd say yes to Open World Dungeon/Bosses.
But I bet the OP wouldn't like that. Because the main reason anyone wants open world is to be an elitist prick. I for one would love open world stuff but it needs to be done correctly so you don't have a bunch of fatasses camping places or worse chinese farmers.
Much easier to just have instances. That is why most MMOs have lots of instances. You can control interactions between players and reduce the undesirable ones to a minimal.
I fully support open world non-instanced dungeons above all because I like competition and don't want things handed to me. Everything shouldn't be a walk in the park, if I only have 2 hours a night to play I shouldn't have the best gear in the game, nor expect to.
It's like getting upset at someone because they caught more big fish than you, even though they have been there since 5AM and you show up at noon. Is it their fault they have more time to do what they love?
You are confused between challenge and competition. You don't need one for the other. I bet you are not good enough to beat Sunwell back in WOW BC .... and while it is challenging, there is zero competition.
No I meant competition. For me, challenging content is expected in games. My first and favorite MMO was FFXI which had very challenging content.
The one thing I have always despised about MMO's is the mob respawn. I kill something and 5 min later is right back in the same spot. HOw can a game ever be immersive with that happening?
Instances provide some measure of immersion. Things in the instance stay dead till you are done, usually. I can really appreciate the need having some instancing.