Let's see. To those who actually addressed the points, thank you.
I will go ahead and concede that SOE may have things thought out well in advance. That is certainly a possibility. History has shown, however, that gamers have found ways to push, pull and prod content that even the most diligent developer never thought possible. The systems included in EQN simply make it easier for jerks to be jerks in new and unique ways that don't have a history of other games worth of solutions in them to fall back on.
SOE is trying to push the envelope in terms of game mechanics, they also have to be prepared to push the envelope in policing the way those mechanics are handled, particularly in light of their target audience (which, to my amazement, people seem to be insisting is no more poorly behaved than, say, the old school EQ crowd).
I see this as a potential problem that has mostly gone overlooked amidst all the chest thumping over the graphics (which are fine as far as I'm concerned). It may be more or less of a problem than I anticipate, but for all the people ignoring obvious facts and common sense and falling back on the 'bigot' labels and ad hominem attacks by trying to pretend that a McDonalds employee is just as intelligent, useful and beneficial to society as a doctor (to keep with the analogy) based on some misguided kumbaya moral high ground... well, classes and divisions in society and in MMOs exist for a reason. Hint: it's not because of my opinion.
Wow, pretentiousness at it's finest.
So people working at McDonald's are not as intelligent as a Doctor... I know a Doctor who prided himself on the fact that he was a McDonald's employee for 6 years through high school and part of college. And the fact that if it was not for that job and the scholarship they gave him on top of other scholarships, he would have never have had the chance to become one of the best spinal surgeons in North America.
Hell, he still volunteers at the Ronald McDonald house in Lebanon, NH often playing the part of Ronald himself for the kids visiting CHaD. Seriously, if he ever heard you or anyone like you speak about a McDonald's employee and their lack of intelligence, I would not want to be anywhere near you...
Something tells me someone never really had to work to reach their station in life. If they did, they wouldn't be singing this tune.
Also, becoming a lawyer is not hard. Becoming a good one is. The only difference between a lawyer and a con man is one has passed the Bar.
Now, as to the rest of your points;
EQN is trying something different with their game, so yes, there will most likely be a lot of learning on the fly on how to deal with exploiters and 'jerks'. If they wanted to go the tried and true way, using the pre-established formula of MMO where years of making the same game over and over has allowed developers to learn from others mistakes, they wouldn't have scrapped versions 1 and 2, and we would be getting EQ3. Then everyone whining now would have been whining about "Same ole' same ole" and "Been there, done that".
Traveling the path of least resistance is fine and dandy, but it is also very boring. Boring is what people are complaining about everyday on these very forums. Making the same game over and over is not really taking a chance - it's taking the path of least resistance. Give me something different and I will be glad to suffer through the growing pains if I enjoy the game. If not, I will happily move along. Just cannot understand why other arm chair developers cannot do the same...
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Although I don't feel quite as certain yet since it is so early in the reveal, my instincts are to share the OP's gloom.
As for FTP, it is basic human nature at work here. Imagine two otherwise-identical high school seniors. One of them has worked and saved and managed to buy a new car. The other has had it given to them by their parents without charge and with the promise it will be replaced for free if he wrecks it. Which car is likely to be better cared for and maintained? The one which was purchased by the owner's resources and time? Or the one handed away to him for free and with a promise to replace without cost? I am not against FTP per se. But I wonder if it limits the level of immersion and community that can be built in any game. FTP works for shooters like PS2, where no one does anything but pull the trigger. But if you want a virtual world, you need people committed to that world.
As far as griefing, MMOs have been out long enough for us to know the answer. Original UO launched as one of the most opened ended MMOs. Griefing led to creation of Trammel. No amount of fancy footwork or player justice could compensate. Since then, the descent of MMOs into Theme-Parkery is directly tied to company decisions that they simply cannot afford the expense of trying to police griefing. The cheapest thing is to take away player freedom, which they have done. And which, to succeed, EQN will have to do if it persists in its current vision.
FF XIV A Realm Reborn has it right. Charge a monthly subscription if you plan on your game having a deep and immersive environment and development of a real and sustained community. Yes, you will still have griefing and associated problems to some extent - they can never be eliminated. However they will be of an order of magnitude less.
I get what your saying with your analogy but it's not quite the way it would apply to F2P. To use your analogy more accurately the subscriber would be the one who buys his car outright with cash and bam there it is. The F2P player however would be the one who took the longer route of gathering all the materials needed himself to build it himself. F2P players are only given the basics for free and if they want to actually advance their characters they have to work harder at it than those who pay for the perks to make it easier. Either way there will be people among both groups who are both good and bad people in general. My only beef with the OP was that he simply declared EVERYONE who does not pay to be bad people and that simply is not true at all.
Not sure what you mean. The classic subscriber/FTP division limits functionality and content for the FTP player. In other words, it doesn't matter how hard you work, you will hit a ceiling. The subscriber, meanwhile, has the same hill to climb in the early/middle game as the FTP person. They just have an opportunity to climb the next hill once they've conquered the basic one available to all. Yes, a company can throw in perks and cash shop items to widen the gap between the two types of customers, but not all do. And cash shops are another discussion anyway.
I never said this had to do with people being good or bad. It simply is how human nature works in terms of the weight or importance we accord to someone or something. Who is your most treasured friend? The one who you grew up with and interacted with since you were kids? Or the person you have never seen who "friends" your Facebook page? Both can be good or bad or anything in between. But the effort you put into a relationship means you treat it differently.
Thats very true and I shoulda mentioned not all F2P models fit the analogy as there are various f2p models different companies use. All of the good ones I have seen however do not limit content at all and just give those who pay added benefits that make progressing easier as well as the obvious vanity stuff and other such perks. Under those good f2p mdoels all of the same things are available to those who do not pay as well they just have to actually worker longer at it or farm for it or whatnot to be able to achieve it. Kinda like GW2 and one who buys gems with cash vs one who farms the gold to exchange for gems. Either way I agree that neither one makes a person good or bad, cash has nothing to do with what determines that at all, as the OPs statements would have us think.
I also never meant to call you out or say you said anything bad, it was just the OP and a few others throughout the thread making the bigoted statements about all who don't pay in general being horrible people.
if SOE making the game the way they did keeps people like you away, OP, then all the more power to them. read what you wrote and then ask yourself why you play online games with other people. seriously consider it and then reflect on your attitude.
Thank you for eschewing the point of my post to engage in a personal attack which offers nothing to the discussion. This discussion is about the potential of SOE's pillars to be exploited and griefed by their target player base. Next time you feel the need to derail my thread, please ask yourself why you post on online message boards. Seriously consider it and then reflect on your attitude.
I will go ahead and point out that I played FFXI for almost five years. FFXI is arguably the most group and community focused AAA MMORPG ever made. If I was incapable of playing well with others, I'd have never managed the success I had in that game. If you value the 'virtual world' aspect of an MMORPG at all, whatsoever, you should be well aware of the ways in which it can be thwarted and undermined by griefers.
Procuring a moral soapbox, firing off an ad hominem and engaging in Ostrich Mode will not make the obvious issue go away.
Does this surprise you? Have you been following the posts of EQN fanboys the past few weeks?
SOE should just change the name of the game to Douchebaggery Online now and save themselves the trouble of having to do it later.
Thanks for the reply Ehliya . I never thought about the Hannibal Lecter outcome before. And I never had roleplayed (tried and fail horribly at it) during PVP. Usually even on non RP servers, my words are spoken with my sword. To some extent my mentality is "I have a weapon + I see you = I MUST kill you! " accurate for me. Its more about the challenge for me though. Like hey is this person going to kill me? Can I kill him? And especially with EQN 40 classes/weapons combo would love to test people and their abilities vs my own combinations. I agree that proportion or balance is really needed. But I don't want it to hinder my game play experience. I want to be immersed in the world. If you get the jump on me and blow a hole under my feet, well that happened and I will have to figure out the situation. And from what I have seen the world is going to be (forgot the word, but) randomly generated from time to time. The cave that was once there won't be there next week. So that will help with setting traps I suppose. Could you clarify more for me how you want the world balanced? And agree with your last statement. If when someone kills me and they jump around my corpse I can tell they are having fun. And that fires me up to have more fun with them :P.
Originally posted by Burdoc101 Could you clarify more for me how you want the world balanced?
Any solution is going to be imperfect and involve compromise, since people like different things. However, my own personal preference for EQN PVP would be (and I realize this now wanders from the OP issues into something else):
- make the world large enough and travel meaningful enough for people to know and understand the risks they are taking
- likewise, scale the looting rules so that people will tend to risk more the farther afield they wander. For example, in safe areas there is no PVP loot drop. In less safe areas, you won't lose bound items. In the completely wild, high risk areas, full looting
- the PVP system should not overly emphasize gear, so as to moderate the risk and ensure people won't fear any PVP at all through fear of losing their gear; you might even want to have very valuable and rare items have a chance not to be lost at all, but merely "disappear" back into the world and not looted by anyone - sort of like Excalibur they would be available to be dropped in some other PVE boss encounter so they would continue to recycle instead of sitting in someone's vault.
- finally, the areas that implement full PVP/full loot should do so as part of a guild warfare/kingdoms system involving territorial conquest, building castles and towns, and sieging. That would give PVP meaning - I think the tendency to grief and player boredom are closely related. Give people meaningful PVP and most will gravitate towards that instead of wandering around trying to irritate others for their amusement
My two cents. I will jump for joy and won't care if the avatars look like Belle and Mufasa if they institute full player sieges, warfare and kingdoms as part of their PVP. I want PVP that: a) doesn't infringe on those who don't want to participate; b) is meaningful and affects the world.
I think the game will be a huge failure in the long run for true MMO players .
But short term it should be quite a ride and new experience hopefully.
This game will however be a step towards the MMORPG we have been dreaming about for the last 15 years .
pttttf , how do you know what a "true" mmo player is?
i was playing roleplaying games most likely before you were born, have played mmorpgs over 20 years now, have beta tested over 15 games, contributed 3d artwork to games, was part of some of the most kickass guilds ever created, and , although wiki says different, i swear me and a few friends invented the term asshat , way back in UO as an insult to the dead, by taking our pants off and sitting on their head repeatedly.
does that make me a "true" mmo player?
god i hope not, i am actually looking forward to a change
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam This might be my favorite thread ever on MMORPG.com
It's certainly in my top 10.
As to the OP, there are always going to be people who are jerks/trolls/griefers online because of the anonymity provided by the internet. This issue is definitely something EQ:N developers, and all online game developers in general, need to consider a little more heavily then they have done so in the past.
I have to agree with the OP. These are all legitimate concerns that really need to be thought about.
All the people here disagreeing or calling the OP names, needs to really grow up. I also see a lot of people are taking his points way out of context. If you read the entire thread, you know he pointed out that not many people who are considered higher up would keep the job working at fast food. Meaning the McDs workers he is talking about are the ones who never move on from it. The ones who do not have a proper education or aptitude to do something else.
Also, people need to realize that saying someone is not as intelligent as another is in no way a personal attack. If Albert Einstein was still alive and told me I was not as intelligent as him, I would totally agree with him, because compared to him I am stupid. It's in now way a personal attack, for him it's just an undeniable truth. For me, it's also a undeniable truth. It doesn't matter if you hate it. It doesn't change facts.
Your average McDs worker will not be as intelligent as your average lawyer or doctor. It's just extremely unlikely. Keep in mind, we are not talking about the teenager that is in college. We are talking about grown adults.
Anyway, besides all of that, even the fans of this game really should be concerned with these issues. While it maybe to an extent speculative, it's still a legitimate concern that really should be thought about. I mean, acting like these issues will not be a problem is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't make the issues disappear.
I personally am looking forward to this game a lot. That doesn't mean, I am not allowed to have concerns. Actually, having concerns is better then ignoring them. Those who ignore concerns are the ones who will be complaining in the end.
if SOE making the game the way they did keeps people like you away, OP, then all the more power to them. read what you wrote and then ask yourself why you play online games with other people. seriously consider it and then reflect on your attitude.
Thank you for eschewing the point of my post to engage in a personal attack which offers nothing to the discussion. This discussion is about the potential of SOE's pillars to be exploited and griefed by their target player base. Next time you feel the need to derail my thread, please ask yourself why you post on online message boards. Seriously consider it and then reflect on your attitude.
I will go ahead and point out that I played FFXI for almost five years. FFXI is arguably the most group and community focused AAA MMORPG ever made. If I was incapable of playing well with others, I'd have never managed the success I had in that game. If you value the 'virtual world' aspect of an MMORPG at all, whatsoever, you should be well aware of the ways in which it can be thwarted and undermined by griefers.
Procuring a moral soapbox, firing off an ad hominem and engaging in Ostrich Mode will not make the obvious issue go away.
Wait what? A guy calling others bottom feeders and the lowest of the low (based on preference) is complaining about personal attacks?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have to agree with the OP. These are all legitimate concerns that really need to be thought about.
All the people here disagreeing or calling the OP names, needs to really grow up. I also see a lot of people are taking his points way out of context. If you read the entire thread, you know he pointed out that not many people who are considered higher up would keep the job working at fast food. Meaning the McDs workers he is talking about are the ones who never move on from it. The ones who do not have a proper education or aptitude to do something else.
Also, people need to realize that saying someone is not as intelligent as another is in no way a personal attack. If Albert Einstein was still alive and told me I was not as intelligent as him, I would totally agree with him, because compared to him I am stupid. It's in now way a personal attack, for him it's just an undeniable truth. For me, it's also a undeniable truth. It doesn't matter if you hate it. It doesn't change facts.
Your average McDs worker will not be as intelligent as your average lawyer or doctor. It's just extremely unlikely. Keep in mind, we are not talking about the teenager that is in college. We are talking about grown adults.
Anyway, besides all of that, even the fans of this game really should be concerned with these issues. While it maybe to an extent speculative, it's still a legitimate concern that really should be thought about. I mean, acting like these issues will not be a problem is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't make the issues disappear.
I personally am looking forward to this game a lot. That doesn't mean, I am not allowed to have concerns. Actually, having concerns is better then ignoring them. Those who ignore concerns are the ones who will be complaining in the end.
Having concerns is one thing, creating an enemy out of other demographics is something else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have to agree with the OP. These are all legitimate concerns that really need to be thought about.
All the people here disagreeing or calling the OP names, needs to really grow up. I also see a lot of people are taking his points way out of context. If you read the entire thread, you know he pointed out that not many people who are considered higher up would keep the job working at fast food. Meaning the McDs workers he is talking about are the ones who never move on from it. The ones who do not have a proper education or aptitude to do something else.
Also, people need to realize that saying someone is not as intelligent as another is in no way a personal attack. If Albert Einstein was still alive and told me I was not as intelligent as him, I would totally agree with him, because compared to him I am stupid. It's in now way a personal attack, for him it's just an undeniable truth. For me, it's also a undeniable truth. It doesn't matter if you hate it. It doesn't change facts.
Your average McDs worker will not be as intelligent as your average lawyer or doctor. It's just extremely unlikely. Keep in mind, we are not talking about the teenager that is in college. We are talking about grown adults.
Anyway, besides all of that, even the fans of this game really should be concerned with these issues. While it maybe to an extent speculative, it's still a legitimate concern that really should be thought about. I mean, acting like these issues will not be a problem is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't make the issues disappear.
I personally am looking forward to this game a lot. That doesn't mean, I am not allowed to have concerns. Actually, having concerns is better then ignoring them. Those who ignore concerns are the ones who will be complaining in the end.
Very few people have disagreed with his concerns. The only disagreement most people are making with him is that he is making a lot of assumptions. The problem most everyone has with him is the pretentious nature in which he makes posts, besides the fact that the McDonald's analogy he is trying to make doesn't apply at all to games. I won't even go into the stupidity and illogical manner of the analogy.
He's being a negative nancy, because he can, not because he should. It is just as easy to get a point across without lacing it with negativity and what it turning into be stupidity on his part. The nature in which he is trying to convey his message is construded and wrong.
whats funny is most of he people who complain are more then likely wow players....the game hasnt even come out yet..and folks bash it...hmmm...not every game that comes out will meet everyone's standards...that why people complain...if you want a game tom meet your standard's and want it to be the way you want it..then make one ....but eqnext looks like its going to be fun..something not world of warcrap.....
Your entire post is based on a fraction of information about the game, given at a high level, detail-free, reveal.
From some of the things you have written, I can tell you either didn't listen to all of the panel talks, or you failed to comprehend some of what was said.
You also seem to assume that the developers and project managers at one of the largest, most successful game development companies, are happless monkeys that could not possibly foresee the problems you have seen in your brilliant mind.... hahah. This isn't to say SOE is perfect; we all know better. But the issues you raise, some of which are only issues for someone who prefers a certain style of MMO, aren't rocket science. I'm sure SOE will make changes and adjustments as needed. The game is in pre-alpha or alpha state as it is. There is plenty of development and testing to be done before release.
The more intelligent people around here will sit back and wait for additional information, while the rest of you make epic posts full of presumptions manufactured in your own bored minds. We'll talk again in six months when we have a bit more information about the game.
I'm personally much more interested in The Repopulation and Star Citizen, but I will be following this game with great interest. I just can't wait until the rest of you get bored of repeating yourselves about EQN so the conversation can move on.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The graphics are the least of this game's problems. I've done my best to avoid the great World War EQNext debate, but it seems rather absurd to me that some of the core problems that the design philosophy behind EQN will create tend to go completely unnoticed.
You're combining four things, F2P, action/twitch combat, console gameplay and destructible environments. Think about that for a second. You're going to take the console crowd, toss them in with the F2P crowd, throw in the FPS/Twitch gaming crowd, and then place them in an environment where things can be destroyed? This is like taking a prison camp on a field trip to a Columbian drug cartel, or a group of sex offenders to a whorehouse.
...
I got this far. Please OP, get some popcorn, put a pillow in ye 'ol chair and sit through the videos from Live if you are actually interested in EQN. Destructible? Yes. To an abusive state? No. They explain it in the videos.
Your stereotyping of groups of people, while your purgative, isn't worth reading or commenting on.
You are right in that SoE's goal seems to be bringing many fanbases together, to a ridiculous level and I think they can actually pull it off. What you may see as an inherent weakness I see as brilliant. Will it be? We'll see but neither of us have jobs or reputations on the line, they do. I'll trust they know what they are doing.
Teh, several of my friends have said the exact same to me as you, OP. It may be so. Still, I hope that is not the case, and somehow SOE finds mechanics to solve this issue.
Personally I rather have a monthly fee = flatrate gaming, than the so called "free" to play. That would solve a lot of issues, IMO.
True, WoW is not known for having immature, lower denominator, kids playing it since it has a fee...heck EQ never had one single idiot ranting in chat or training mobs over people. Thank you monthly fees!
Irony is such a bad substitute for arguments.
No single factor is all decisive, neither F2P or whatevs. But it certainly contributes to the lack of loyal communities. But I guess it is much easier to appeal to the laughing audience than to go into the nuances of multiple cause and effect connections. I understand that must be tiresome.
Oops.
I do agree with you. Just so tired of all the hating on whatever game, genre, play style, etc. So many posts make huge assumptions about a game we know very little about and generalizations about players just to get the fire going. Hard to have intelligent conversations when most of the comments are missing logic and objectivity. F2P is needed to keep games going now, I'll sub if it is worth it, but I wouldn't want them to attempt to keep profitable without it. Annoying F2P griefers < game staying above water.
I do agree with you. Just so tired of all the hating on whatever game, genre, play style, etc. So many posts make huge assumptions about a game we know very little about and generalizations about players just to get the fire going. Hard to have intelligent conversations when most of the comments are missing logic and objectivity. F2P is needed to keep games going now, I'll sub if it is worth it, but I wouldn't want them to attempt to keep profitable without it. Annoying F2P griefers < game staying above water.
I don't buy this at all. For a game with a solid community, a virtual world aspect, and group-focused gameplay which does not pander to those looking for instant gratification, I would pay a $30 sub. I would pay a $50 sub. I may even consider paying a $100 sub, because at the end of the day, $3.33 a day for unlimited entertainment is dirt cheap and it would guarantee that the people who hop games, troll everything, bring the community down and then move on to the next big thing would be kept far away from this.
I guarantee that I'm not alone.
F2P uses marketing gimmicks, artificial roadblocks and shady business practices involving human psychology of reward and gratification to draw more money from gullible people who will then turn around and adamantly defend the business model for... reasons that escape me.
The problem with making the argument that it's all down to personal preference is simply this: the people whose personal preference is virtual worlds with group content and a subscription fee are no longer having games made for us AT ALL, EVER. Every. Single. Game. is being released to cater to the instant gratification, console/twitch crowd and is being monetized to take advantage of the psychology of gamers in a really greedy, backwards way that is made all the more so because most people don't even realize the tactics being used to make them open their wallet and overpay for things that used to be available in subscription games for free.
Of course businesses are going to use the F2P model. They will do so because people are, unfortunately, stupid enough to fall for it and for every hundred players who pay nothing, you will get one crazed lunatic who will pay $20,000.00 for a F2P game if the developer gives the option to do so. F2P games are not built for the free player. They're built specifically to entice players to spend as much as possible with no ceiling, to create disparity, peer pressure and tension among the playerbase. To create conflict by broadcasting cash shop items globally to shame others into seeing things they can't have without spending x * $5 per random gambling box.
So yes, in a sense, the idea of a cooperative or competitive virtual world is, at its very core, impossible under the F2P business model, and it can not be possible without an investment and attachment by the players.
EQ: Next will be a successful game, it will make SOE a lot of money. Sadly, that is all that matters anymore. There is no pride in the quality of the product, no passion in game development, no interest in creating something that is long lasting and valuable. This game, and these types of games are a success in only one respect, money, and they are running the genre into the ground and corrupting it to attain their goals.
You will see complaints from EQ (and other games like it) vets, the extremely vocal and passionate minority, because there is nothing new for us to play. There is nothing being made that caters to the playstyles we enjoy. There are no options. There are no outlets. We are reduced to playing decades old games (which have been changed in most respects to suit the same instant gratification demographic), and/or begging and pleading developers for the most minute and insignificant content types that remind us of what used to be, of the roots of the genre newer players take for granted, and the stories, friendships and adventures we built in them.
This is not an argument about the financial success of a game, or the viability of a business model. It's a condemnation and acknowledgement of the terrible side effects this paradigm shift in the MMO industry is bringing upon us.
I went off topic a bit there, but suffice it to say, most of us who share my opinion are well aware that we can do absolutely nothing but watch the genre devolve and hope for a miracle at some point. Naturally we're frustrated, and naturally we communicate in the only way we are able to show our frustration.
I do agree with you. Just so tired of all the hating on whatever game, genre, play style, etc. So many posts make huge assumptions about a game we know very little about and generalizations about players just to get the fire going. Hard to have intelligent conversations when most of the comments are missing logic and objectivity. F2P is needed to keep games going now, I'll sub if it is worth it, but I wouldn't want them to attempt to keep profitable without it. Annoying F2P griefers < game staying above water.
I don't buy this at all. For a game with a solid community, a virtual world aspect, and group-focused gameplay which does not pander to those looking for instant gratification, I would pay a $30 sub. I would pay a $50 sub. I may even consider paying a $100 sub, because at the end of the day, $3.33 a day for unlimited entertainment is dirt cheap and it would guarantee that the people who hop games, troll everything, bring the community down and then move on to the next big thing would be kept far away from this.
Yes, it would guarantee it, but it would also guarantee a much smaller population in said world. One of the goals in MMORPGs, especially one like EQ Next is to try to simulate a virtual world with as many people co-existing as possible.
I guarantee that I'm not alone.
F2P uses marketing gimmicks, artificial roadblocks and shady business practices involving human psychology of reward and gratification to draw more money from gullible people who will then turn around and adamantly defend the business model for... reasons that escape me.
I contend that F2P is necessary at this point in time, especially if you're game isn't something completely unique like Eve. There are of course, right ways and wrong ways to do F2P. Some of these ways can be described as shady, but on the other hand, I would consider most of the P2P MMOs in the last decade to be shady to require a purchase and subscription. After playing them, I immediately realized they fucked me over and now im out $50-100 bucks for something I played only a few weeks.
The problem with making the argument that it's all down to personal preference is simply this: the people whose personal preference is virtual worlds with group content and a subscription fee are no longer having games made for us AT ALL, EVER. Every. Single. Game. is being released to cater to the instant gratification, console/twitch crowd and is being monetized to take advantage of the psychology of gamers in a really greedy, backwards way that is made all the more so because most people don't even realize the tactics being used to make them open their wallet and overpay for things that used to be available in subscription games for free.
So much truth in there, except the part about F2P.
Of course businesses are going to use the F2P model. They will do so because people are, unfortunately, stupid enough to fall for it and for every hundred players who pay nothing, you will get one crazed lunatic who will pay $20,000.00 for a F2P game if the developer gives the option to do so. F2P games are not built for the free player. They're built specifically to entice players to spend as much as possible with no ceiling, to create disparity, peer pressure and tension among the playerbase. To create conflict by broadcasting cash shop items globally to shame others into seeing things they can't have without spending x * $5 per random gambling box.
I disagree here, because as I said above, it is ultimately at the player's discretion whether he buys into a F2P game. You must be a paralegal for a defense attorney, because you're certainly biased against "the big corporations." You can't overlook the fact that games that offer F2P are providing players with enjoyment, and people are responsible for how they spend their money. I, for instance, have played Planetside 2 since launch and have spent maybe $50 bucks for 100s of hours of enjoyment over the last 9 months.
So yes, in a sense, the idea of a cooperative or competitive virtual world is, at its very core, impossible under the F2P business model, and it can not be possible without an investment and attachment by the players.
EQ: Next will be a successful game, it will make SOE a lot of money. Sadly, that is all that matters anymore. There is no pride in the quality of the product, no passion in game development, no interest in creating something that is long lasting and valuable. This game, and these types of games are a success in only one respect, money, and they are running the genre into the ground and corrupting it to attain their goals.
You will see complaints from EQ (and other games like it) vets, the extremely vocal and passionate minority, because there is nothing new for us to play. There is nothing being made that caters to the playstyles we enjoy. There are no options. There are no outlets. We are reduced to playing decades old games (which have been changed in most respects to suit the same instant gratification demographic), and/or begging and pleading developers for the most minute and insignificant content types that remind us of what used to be, of the roots of the genre newer players take for granted, and the stories, friendships and adventures we built in them.
This is not an argument about the financial success of a game, or the viability of a business model. It's a condemnation and acknowledgement of the terrible side effects this paradigm shift in the MMO industry is bringing upon us.
I went off topic a bit there, but suffice it to say, most of us who share my opinion are well aware that we can do absolutely nothing but watch the genre devolve and hope for a miracle at some point. Naturally we're frustrated, and naturally we communicate in the only way we are able to show our frustration.
A lot of good points, but I have to disagree with your assessment of F2P in general.
I'm a F2P advocate, just like SOE is, even though I often sub or go premium. They know that success of a game is all about the long term, and F2P increases longevity of an MMO over P2P. The hardcore players or those completely devoted to a game, ie. players who sub, need the f2p players to keep their game alive. The additional money they earn from the F2P crowd pays for future development that the sub crowd needs as well as providing players to interact with, trade with, group with or to simply kill depending on the type of game it is.
A very apparent symbiotic relationship exists between the p2p players and the f2p, and thankfully SOE has learned this. Others will continue to follow suit as they see competitive alternatives to their games appear in the industry.
Now, I believe much of what SOE has presented with EQN has been short-sighted, and will probably be drastically changed before launch. I think the way destruction works will likely be one of those things changed, though we don't truly know how it even works now, so this is speculation.
I do agree though, EQ Next being both a console and F2P definitely is a recipe for disaster if the proper precautions aren't taken, moreso than any F2P game ever.
Comments
Wow, pretentiousness at it's finest.
So people working at McDonald's are not as intelligent as a Doctor... I know a Doctor who prided himself on the fact that he was a McDonald's employee for 6 years through high school and part of college. And the fact that if it was not for that job and the scholarship they gave him on top of other scholarships, he would have never have had the chance to become one of the best spinal surgeons in North America.
Hell, he still volunteers at the Ronald McDonald house in Lebanon, NH often playing the part of Ronald himself for the kids visiting CHaD. Seriously, if he ever heard you or anyone like you speak about a McDonald's employee and their lack of intelligence, I would not want to be anywhere near you...
Something tells me someone never really had to work to reach their station in life. If they did, they wouldn't be singing this tune.
Also, becoming a lawyer is not hard. Becoming a good one is. The only difference between a lawyer and a con man is one has passed the Bar.
Now, as to the rest of your points;
EQN is trying something different with their game, so yes, there will most likely be a lot of learning on the fly on how to deal with exploiters and 'jerks'. If they wanted to go the tried and true way, using the pre-established formula of MMO where years of making the same game over and over has allowed developers to learn from others mistakes, they wouldn't have scrapped versions 1 and 2, and we would be getting EQ3. Then everyone whining now would have been whining about "Same ole' same ole" and "Been there, done that".
Traveling the path of least resistance is fine and dandy, but it is also very boring. Boring is what people are complaining about everyday on these very forums. Making the same game over and over is not really taking a chance - it's taking the path of least resistance. Give me something different and I will be glad to suffer through the growing pains if I enjoy the game. If not, I will happily move along. Just cannot understand why other arm chair developers cannot do the same...
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Yeah it boils down to making acting like a douche too expensive and unrewarding. If that is achieved by whatever means, then it will be ok.
Adversity and challenge can be good things. Few people play games just to be trolled though.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Thats very true and I shoulda mentioned not all F2P models fit the analogy as there are various f2p models different companies use. All of the good ones I have seen however do not limit content at all and just give those who pay added benefits that make progressing easier as well as the obvious vanity stuff and other such perks. Under those good f2p mdoels all of the same things are available to those who do not pay as well they just have to actually worker longer at it or farm for it or whatnot to be able to achieve it. Kinda like GW2 and one who buys gems with cash vs one who farms the gold to exchange for gems. Either way I agree that neither one makes a person good or bad, cash has nothing to do with what determines that at all, as the OPs statements would have us think.
I also never meant to call you out or say you said anything bad, it was just the OP and a few others throughout the thread making the bigoted statements about all who don't pay in general being horrible people.
Does this surprise you? Have you been following the posts of EQN fanboys the past few weeks?
SOE should just change the name of the game to Douchebaggery Online now and save themselves the trouble of having to do it later.
hallo ~_~
I think the game will be a huge failure in the long run for true MMO players .
But short term it should be quite a ride and new experience hopefully.
This game will however be a step towards the MMORPG we have been dreaming about for the last 15 years .
Any solution is going to be imperfect and involve compromise, since people like different things. However, my own personal preference for EQN PVP would be (and I realize this now wanders from the OP issues into something else):
- make the world large enough and travel meaningful enough for people to know and understand the risks they are taking
- likewise, scale the looting rules so that people will tend to risk more the farther afield they wander. For example, in safe areas there is no PVP loot drop. In less safe areas, you won't lose bound items. In the completely wild, high risk areas, full looting
- the PVP system should not overly emphasize gear, so as to moderate the risk and ensure people won't fear any PVP at all through fear of losing their gear; you might even want to have very valuable and rare items have a chance not to be lost at all, but merely "disappear" back into the world and not looted by anyone - sort of like Excalibur they would be available to be dropped in some other PVE boss encounter so they would continue to recycle instead of sitting in someone's vault.
- finally, the areas that implement full PVP/full loot should do so as part of a guild warfare/kingdoms system involving territorial conquest, building castles and towns, and sieging. That would give PVP meaning - I think the tendency to grief and player boredom are closely related. Give people meaningful PVP and most will gravitate towards that instead of wandering around trying to irritate others for their amusement
My two cents. I will jump for joy and won't care if the avatars look like Belle and Mufasa if they institute full player sieges, warfare and kingdoms as part of their PVP. I want PVP that: a) doesn't infringe on those who don't want to participate; b) is meaningful and affects the world.
Who?
pttttf , how do you know what a "true" mmo player is?
i was playing roleplaying games most likely before you were born, have played mmorpgs over 20 years now, have beta tested over 15 games, contributed 3d artwork to games, was part of some of the most kickass guilds ever created, and , although wiki says different, i swear me and a few friends invented the term asshat , way back in UO as an insult to the dead, by taking our pants off and sitting on their head repeatedly.
does that make me a "true" mmo player?
god i hope not, i am actually looking forward to a change
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
People who believe that RPG's are role playing games not arcade games in mine crafts clothing.
___________________________
Have flask; will travel.
It's certainly in my top 10.
As to the OP, there are always going to be people who are jerks/trolls/griefers online because of the anonymity provided by the internet. This issue is definitely something EQ:N developers, and all online game developers in general, need to consider a little more heavily then they have done so in the past.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
I have to agree with the OP. These are all legitimate concerns that really need to be thought about.
All the people here disagreeing or calling the OP names, needs to really grow up. I also see a lot of people are taking his points way out of context. If you read the entire thread, you know he pointed out that not many people who are considered higher up would keep the job working at fast food. Meaning the McDs workers he is talking about are the ones who never move on from it. The ones who do not have a proper education or aptitude to do something else.
Also, people need to realize that saying someone is not as intelligent as another is in no way a personal attack. If Albert Einstein was still alive and told me I was not as intelligent as him, I would totally agree with him, because compared to him I am stupid. It's in now way a personal attack, for him it's just an undeniable truth. For me, it's also a undeniable truth. It doesn't matter if you hate it. It doesn't change facts.
Your average McDs worker will not be as intelligent as your average lawyer or doctor. It's just extremely unlikely. Keep in mind, we are not talking about the teenager that is in college. We are talking about grown adults.
Anyway, besides all of that, even the fans of this game really should be concerned with these issues. While it maybe to an extent speculative, it's still a legitimate concern that really should be thought about. I mean, acting like these issues will not be a problem is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't make the issues disappear.
I personally am looking forward to this game a lot. That doesn't mean, I am not allowed to have concerns. Actually, having concerns is better then ignoring them. Those who ignore concerns are the ones who will be complaining in the end.
Wait what? A guy calling others bottom feeders and the lowest of the low (based on preference) is complaining about personal attacks?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Having concerns is one thing, creating an enemy out of other demographics is something else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Very few people have disagreed with his concerns. The only disagreement most people are making with him is that he is making a lot of assumptions. The problem most everyone has with him is the pretentious nature in which he makes posts, besides the fact that the McDonald's analogy he is trying to make doesn't apply at all to games. I won't even go into the stupidity and illogical manner of the analogy.
He's being a negative nancy, because he can, not because he should. It is just as easy to get a point across without lacing it with negativity and what it turning into be stupidity on his part. The nature in which he is trying to convey his message is construded and wrong.
OP: Here's your problem.
Your entire post is based on a fraction of information about the game, given at a high level, detail-free, reveal.
From some of the things you have written, I can tell you either didn't listen to all of the panel talks, or you failed to comprehend some of what was said.
You also seem to assume that the developers and project managers at one of the largest, most successful game development companies, are happless monkeys that could not possibly foresee the problems you have seen in your brilliant mind.... hahah. This isn't to say SOE is perfect; we all know better. But the issues you raise, some of which are only issues for someone who prefers a certain style of MMO, aren't rocket science. I'm sure SOE will make changes and adjustments as needed. The game is in pre-alpha or alpha state as it is. There is plenty of development and testing to be done before release.
The more intelligent people around here will sit back and wait for additional information, while the rest of you make epic posts full of presumptions manufactured in your own bored minds. We'll talk again in six months when we have a bit more information about the game.
I'm personally much more interested in The Repopulation and Star Citizen, but I will be following this game with great interest. I just can't wait until the rest of you get bored of repeating yourselves about EQN so the conversation can move on.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I got this far. Please OP, get some popcorn, put a pillow in ye 'ol chair and sit through the videos from Live if you are actually interested in EQN. Destructible? Yes. To an abusive state? No. They explain it in the videos.
Your stereotyping of groups of people, while your purgative, isn't worth reading or commenting on.
You are right in that SoE's goal seems to be bringing many fanbases together, to a ridiculous level and I think they can actually pull it off. What you may see as an inherent weakness I see as brilliant. Will it be? We'll see but neither of us have jobs or reputations on the line, they do. I'll trust they know what they are doing.
I do agree with you. Just so tired of all the hating on whatever game, genre, play style, etc. So many posts make huge assumptions about a game we know very little about and generalizations about players just to get the fire going. Hard to have intelligent conversations when most of the comments are missing logic and objectivity. F2P is needed to keep games going now, I'll sub if it is worth it, but I wouldn't want them to attempt to keep profitable without it. Annoying F2P griefers < game staying above water.
I don't buy this at all. For a game with a solid community, a virtual world aspect, and group-focused gameplay which does not pander to those looking for instant gratification, I would pay a $30 sub. I would pay a $50 sub. I may even consider paying a $100 sub, because at the end of the day, $3.33 a day for unlimited entertainment is dirt cheap and it would guarantee that the people who hop games, troll everything, bring the community down and then move on to the next big thing would be kept far away from this.
I guarantee that I'm not alone.
F2P uses marketing gimmicks, artificial roadblocks and shady business practices involving human psychology of reward and gratification to draw more money from gullible people who will then turn around and adamantly defend the business model for... reasons that escape me.
The problem with making the argument that it's all down to personal preference is simply this: the people whose personal preference is virtual worlds with group content and a subscription fee are no longer having games made for us AT ALL, EVER. Every. Single. Game. is being released to cater to the instant gratification, console/twitch crowd and is being monetized to take advantage of the psychology of gamers in a really greedy, backwards way that is made all the more so because most people don't even realize the tactics being used to make them open their wallet and overpay for things that used to be available in subscription games for free.
Of course businesses are going to use the F2P model. They will do so because people are, unfortunately, stupid enough to fall for it and for every hundred players who pay nothing, you will get one crazed lunatic who will pay $20,000.00 for a F2P game if the developer gives the option to do so. F2P games are not built for the free player. They're built specifically to entice players to spend as much as possible with no ceiling, to create disparity, peer pressure and tension among the playerbase. To create conflict by broadcasting cash shop items globally to shame others into seeing things they can't have without spending x * $5 per random gambling box.
So yes, in a sense, the idea of a cooperative or competitive virtual world is, at its very core, impossible under the F2P business model, and it can not be possible without an investment and attachment by the players.
EQ: Next will be a successful game, it will make SOE a lot of money. Sadly, that is all that matters anymore. There is no pride in the quality of the product, no passion in game development, no interest in creating something that is long lasting and valuable. This game, and these types of games are a success in only one respect, money, and they are running the genre into the ground and corrupting it to attain their goals.
You will see complaints from EQ (and other games like it) vets, the extremely vocal and passionate minority, because there is nothing new for us to play. There is nothing being made that caters to the playstyles we enjoy. There are no options. There are no outlets. We are reduced to playing decades old games (which have been changed in most respects to suit the same instant gratification demographic), and/or begging and pleading developers for the most minute and insignificant content types that remind us of what used to be, of the roots of the genre newer players take for granted, and the stories, friendships and adventures we built in them.
This is not an argument about the financial success of a game, or the viability of a business model. It's a condemnation and acknowledgement of the terrible side effects this paradigm shift in the MMO industry is bringing upon us.
I went off topic a bit there, but suffice it to say, most of us who share my opinion are well aware that we can do absolutely nothing but watch the genre devolve and hope for a miracle at some point. Naturally we're frustrated, and naturally we communicate in the only way we are able to show our frustration.
My blog:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Strayfe/
Fake sandbox mmorpg definition #1890582
Sandbox has never been contingent upon destructibility.
A lot of good points, but I have to disagree with your assessment of F2P in general.
I'm a F2P advocate, just like SOE is, even though I often sub or go premium. They know that success of a game is all about the long term, and F2P increases longevity of an MMO over P2P. The hardcore players or those completely devoted to a game, ie. players who sub, need the f2p players to keep their game alive. The additional money they earn from the F2P crowd pays for future development that the sub crowd needs as well as providing players to interact with, trade with, group with or to simply kill depending on the type of game it is.
A very apparent symbiotic relationship exists between the p2p players and the f2p, and thankfully SOE has learned this. Others will continue to follow suit as they see competitive alternatives to their games appear in the industry.
Now, I believe much of what SOE has presented with EQN has been short-sighted, and will probably be drastically changed before launch. I think the way destruction works will likely be one of those things changed, though we don't truly know how it even works now, so this is speculation.
I do agree though, EQ Next being both a console and F2P definitely is a recipe for disaster if the proper precautions aren't taken, moreso than any F2P game ever.