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Why have new-age MMO's crippled the old, hardcore sandbox's of old?
DrCokePepsi
Member UncommonPosts: 177
A directly copy-n-pasted version of a reply i wrote in Wildstar: Revenues Revealed about subscription fees and the "kiddie" excuse, here it is...
'Kids/kiddies' in MMO gaming means underage children signing onto these games. The under-age kids have swarmed into the genre mostly through runescape which is an okay game, but i digress, and the sudden booming popularity of the mmo genre. These kids more often then not have a lack of patience in these games and when it comes to arguing P2P or F2P, they cry F2P because they don't have a job, no income, and they're parents won't allow it, see the effect?
So to them $15 bucks a month is some insane stack of cash that they have to drop every couple weeks. To any other adult gamer, $15 is simply an hour's worth of work for an entire month of solid, almost never-ending gameplay complete with a massive world, a civilization of other people, and constant upgrades and events in-game that would never be supplied in some single-purchase game/mmo. Not to say that I'm against kids as a whole playing these games, but the impatient ones who can't get $15 a month shouldnt whine about it everywhere, the other one's who mow lawns or something for income/who's parents can pay and if they understand all the adult concepts of mmo's that's up to the parents to decide, I have nothing against that. But the booming outcry against P2P models and the sandbox games which require you to grind, are more often than not the children who play these games.
I have NOTHING against themepark mmo players, or supporters of all the AAA titles coming out who's developers just grab at their players for money, I'm just against the swarming number of kids who have come into this genre, underaged, and cry at the developers to create a next to perfect replica of a console game and call it an mmo. I'm also against the people who cry out AGAINST sandbox games, their community, and P2P models because god-forbid to make a more expensive, involved mmo than a B2P, or F2P themepark, should these developers actually get paid for their efforts.
To me, P2P games means that the game-creator actually cares for their audience of gamers, Blizzard aside, most P2P games actually don't make that much money, they spend it mostly on updates, SERVER MAINTENANCE which is extremely expensive, hosting thousands-millions of people on a plethora of servers is no cheap task, and they spend it on the company itself to maintain. A lot goes into a P2P game mostly for the community. I'm in college right now for game design, the whole writing process, art, the coding, all of these core structures of a game, so I can completely understand how to develop a game, and manage a team of developers in my own company. In that company I will someday develop an mmo. That has been my dream, and the payment method i will use? P2P. I have no interest whatsoever in earning some confounded amount of money. I want to use every bit of it to create, and maintain an amazing mmorpg. When/if I have surplus quantities of cash after paying my team they're share? I either expand the team, advertise more, add larger updates etc. In any other model of gaming the developer is not nearly as ambitious as that and will not create a game nearly as fun and enjoyable as a P2P model game.
Also, think of it this way, you pay $60 bucks for the newest console game, for about 60-100 hours MOST of gameplay. In an mmo within that first one or two months, you've spent about 30 bucks on the base product normally, complete with a 30-day sub, then another $15 for the next, within those two months not only is the experience guaranteed to be far more amazing than some console game, but you've also normally already spent enough hours in that mmo to have used up what you would have gotten out of that console game. At this point you've only spent $45, over a two month period. The next two months from that point on will only be $30 per every two months.
In reality, if you have a job, the mmo fee is next to nothing. to complain about that fee is childish because statistically, unless you dont enjoy mmo's, you are being given soo much more value with that mmo than any console games. That is a fact. If you continue to continue you're mmo experience, well, it's worth it isn't it?
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Comments
WOW=$$$$$
Copy WOW, get $$$$$
That is how they think.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
It is not about affordability. I will drop a few hundred for a good michelin star restaurant meal with my wife, but i won't pay a cent for a MMO.
Why? Because there is competition who offer the same amount of fun for free. If i can find a free alternative that is as much fun for me, why would i even play a cent?
Do you have a link to this?
I tried to do my own google-fu to find Blizzard stating something to this effect, but no luck. Halp please.
Are you a freshman in college, because from the things you're saying, you sound really young. You completely understand how to develop a game and manage your team? That's only something someone with no experience says.
With things like kickstarter out there these days, I have no doubt you could find funding to create a MMO in your vision - but running a business isn't an easy task (which I'm sure you'll discover). Best of luck in your future endeavors.
It only happened in west, not in Asia at all. There is no western MMO now besides WoW that makes more money than Lineage 1.
And there is no western MMORPG besides WoW-GW2 now that makes more money than Lineage 2.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
I didn't read through the OP, but I voted the reduced price. Once I compared what I can get for just a box price in single player games, or with indie games, it just doesn't seem possible that a gaming company can give me $15 a month worth of game, month after month.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I guess that explains why you think kung fu panda inspired WoW. WC3:TFT came out in 2003, and that would have made you 10 years old at the time so while you may have played it, you might have forgotten that pandaren were neutral heroes in WC3 and were highly popular.
http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutral/pandarenbrewmaster.shtml
Pandaren weren't added to WoW to appease kiddies, many of us old WC3 players had been asking for them for years - if I remember, we were clamoring for their addition with the burning crusade expansion, but instead got spacegoats.
I agree with this. heck I got over 50 hours of entertainment out of Binding of Isaac for 3 bucks, over 350 hours for $15 in Warframe, and I can keep playing whenever I want without paying more.
I have always been a fan of lowering bars of entry. I'd actually like to see a dev try (and I said this in another thread) get rid of the box price, just go straight sub, $15 a month at launch. I'd be less hesitant to give the game a try at $15 than at $60. If we MUST pay $60, then include like 3-4 months of game time to let the game grow a bit.
Heh, I remember those days, but yes, pandaren have been asked for, pretty much since WoW's been around. Also werent they retconned spacegoats too?
To support the genre if you enjoy it and want to see it actually progress and remain..and because the game is worth paying for (most of the games with any real depth and content are paid for). But I forgot..it's all about you. Gamers like you are the problem with gaming in general. Offer nothing to the genre, but expect everything given to you for nothing.
If you can find such a game more power to you. But the reality is that usually F2P cannot provide the necessary amount of features and content in comparison to a properly managed P2P game.
Personally, I'm much more keen on deeply itemized F2P player to player RMT with the devs taking a cut of the proceeds. It's my opinion such a model could earn more than P2P. And contrary to popular mmo gamer opinion, I think it could get a huge playerbase; again assuming the game is well designed, feature rich, and tons of fun to play.
No model exists in a vacuum. You have to have a great game or it just doesn't matter what model you choose. Take SWTOR for example. They threw all that money away on vids and voice-overs that could have been spent developing so many more quality mmo features. P2P, F2P, both suck for that game because it ultimately falls short of what a mmo should offer (it's a sub-par wow clone) despite the fact it's so fun to play.
It's just a formula now. They either market it successfully or not.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Because the link doesnt exist. MoP wasnt designed to appeal to a younger audience, that's just some people's ignorance speaking because they think Pandas = Kung Fu Panda. Mature people can actually see that the Pandaren, already being part of Warcraft, fit the theme of secluded, serene land for the horde and alliance to come ruin.
Now, WoW has always been designed for broad appeal, and MoP is no different. But its certainly not geared towards children.
What old, hardcore sandbox games are you referring to?
EQ?? Not a sandbox. Not even close.
DAoC? Not very hardcore. It killed itself with poor decisions.
UO? Never played. Can't comment. But from what I've heard it fits your description.
AC? OK, I'll give you it had one hardcore server that had about 600 concurrent users TOPS. Yes, the rest of the game was sandbox, and no idea why the sequel was not more like the original.
I'm at a loss as to what games you are referring to? Besides a very underplayed UO.
I'd also like to point you were 5ish when these game game out, and you were 9ish when these games were past their prime. Many only had themselves to blame for their demise. EQ and DAoC both didn't stay true to their core concepts. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, and I doubt half the people who claimed to have played those games did.
I still play Asheron's Call the original, nostalgia is not the issue here, the issue is that I still play the game simply because there are no other good sandbox options besides this one. The issue is that the only options now are themeparks. Not that there are a level quantity of sandboxes and themeparks of a P2P model, but that there are ONLY F2P and B2P themparks as of right now. OBVIOUSLY there are a few sanboxes to choose from but their premise is either uninteresting or they're just too underdeveloped. Another game to mention is Star Wars Galaxies, wholly sandbox, this game was by far my absolute favorite mmo of all time. And it died after it's several faithful years of awesome content, it decided to take the WoW route. And I don't just mean sandboxes either but some themeparks could be good given it had a P2P model, and end-game content. Any other model would feature a pay-to-win bullshit advantage, or a buy to play for as much content as a console game would give you. Everquest was a good themepark, WoW used to be a good thempark. It's just not on the same level of quality as MMORPG games used to be. TESO looks like a promising, ambitious themepark, given it's strong lore background and they're level of ambition. It seems like it will offer a P2P model. ArcheAge is sandbox coming out that looks really fun, the future looks like it has a chance, but the outcry for F2P themeparks as of right now is just painful.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Ho Ho!!
DrCokePepsi
I agree with you on many things you have said. The feeling is quite mutual.
And I am in College (again) for the same reasons as you as well.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
nice
!
Cheers to you as well!
Thats the way to go haha, i've been saying the same thing on these forums for too long, and not many have so happily agreed lol
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
As a friend told me today.
MMOs are dying.
MOBARPGnime are the future. Games will soon be one-button cartoons with ultimate ability to drop safes on peoples heads and punt enemies to the moon. Cue the action lines and street fighter animations.
Will the last person who remembers a hotbar please hit the lights on your way out.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Thank you.
Who needs the same amount of content when i can play more than one game? And, i am not talking hypothetical.
I am currently enjoying Marvel Heroes, and STO. I fully expect the fun will diminish in a few weeks (now seriously STO is fun on and off, and i don't play it seriously ... so it will last longer), but then there are NEW fun alternatives.
I voted for reducing the monthly fee, but in fact I wanted to state that there are very good free 2 play games nowadays. Only a few companies can afford to keep the old model. If you are going to charge a monthly fee for your new game, better be sure it will be a blockbuster, otherwise you will have to change your mind or disappear.
And maybe, there are better ideas than only making the player pay each month. EVE Online for instance allows you pay with game money (as long as others are willing to pay more than the usual price for a ton of ISK)
There are.
For example, let most people play the game for free, and let a few self-selected whales to pay for everyone. This one seems to work out well. Devs make more money. Whales got their epleen or whatever they are paying for. Many players get free games to play. I will call that win-win-win.
You sir please take my last brownie it is yours. Made from the tears he will shed when he is freshly out of college.
I think that it doesn't matter if it's a car a house a pet or a video game... the things you pay for in life are the things you appreciate and treat well.
I've noticed a huge lapse in the average gamer in regard to passion for the game and respect for the community and other gamers.
If people want to just play a fast paced first person shooter type game where action and advancement are the most important thing then they should hop on a multiplayer in STEAM and have it up. XBOX live or console gaming is a great place to act like you were only raised in the gutter by your peers, not PC social environments global chat.
I like P2P games better because I truly feel that even if you're 15 with a paper route, if you have to cough up something every month in order to be part of a community, you treat it better. F2P games attract people who don't care about the community, don't care if they get banned for behavior or exploits... they just game jump or create new accounts. In North America, in my opinion, it just degrades the entire experience to the lowest common denominator player. To the guy that doesn't know how to act or gets a thrill from breaking the game for other players.
That plus the fact that the devs have a constant stream of income coming through the door along with cash shop credits or PLEX or CREDD etc... just makes it easier for them to keep the lights on, avoid layoffs and keep a great game great.
I am all for barrier to entry and P2P games, I think they enhance every reason we love MMO's.
No bitchers.
I appreciate plenty of free games.
And I appreciate my wife, and treat her very well. I have not paid a cent to "have" her. Nor my kids.
Man, there is a joke to be made here but it will probably result in a ban
Tip to OP: If you want to make a very long post like you did, it helps to not have your first sentence make rational people /facepalm.