This strange Illusion that one day in a new MMO, one will spend hours of gaming together with a big guild consisting of old friends from the good old EQ1-days. And they will rule their server in PvE and PvP, they will have better gear than everybody else and they deserve it and they will own all other weak casuals - rightfully so.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
Diffucult - Devs not fearing to have people fail.. and learn.. and become better (this is what builds characters and stories).
Consequence - Mistakes or poor decisions matters, playing well is rewarded (keeps long term players interested, makes newbies have something to stride for).
Rewarding - Putting time and efford into the game will make You signifcantly better than those who put less efford (and that is ok).
Advanced - Multiple solutions to everything from combat to builds to roles to playstyle (or call it Diversity).
A state of mind that can be achieved or induced and must be maintained for motivation. So the devs have to rig the entire game or they quit. I don't want to play in a façade anymore.
I will play a game where the hardcore slaughter me the entire time I play, but I wont play any game where the makers invite everyone to play then pick sides. Or consider a game that is designed to keep a group elevated. Been there.
Ill watch tv instead if this is how pc games work now.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Hardcore means the part of the game catering to the top 5% of the population. If you make the whole game hardcore you cut out 95% of your potential customers. The right way (maximize profit potential) would be to make most of the game for your base, and then add enough hardcore to satisfy the hardcore crowd.
Hardcore Game: A game that requires skill to play and has harsh penalties for playing like a moron. EVE is a good example of this.
Hardcore Gamer: Someone who thinks they are some kind of special snowflake and calls anybody who disagrees with them casual. They generally have the least to show in game except a large number after typing in a command similar to /played.
"Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.
The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.
It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."
The proponents of this game style derive a lot of self-satisfaction from their ability to withstand pain and suffering and are openly contemptuous of any players that don't share their masochistic preference.
Yeah, the first mmorpgs were a pain to play, no minimap, almost no quests so you had to grind, extremely slow leveling, etc
But the the computers were slow and the developers had few resources.
With the technology today we can have more realistic setbacks instead of making you run to your corpse for 10 minutes.
Everquest Next you can spend two months building a city, and then watch it be taken apart by a Orc invasion.
Now that is hardcore.
And fun!
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Zeppelin4 Now a days most would say its hardcore if they die as they level. :P
Sad, but true.
Originally posted by Rorrin
01) xp loss on death
02) average 12 months to reach max level
03) no mini-map
04) no map period
05) advancement only via group reliance
06) spawn camping for rarest items
07) no quest markers or quest log
08) 40+ person raids
09) open world conflict, either through pvp or mob tagging, kill stealing
10) requires 8+ hour gaming sessions to progress
11) requires min-maxing to shine and really stand out above your peers
12) possibility of losing corpse on death, corpse dragging
13) dungeons you can get lost in
14) no sparkly trail showing you where to run to next
15) guild membership mandatory to succeed
16) class and role reliance to succeed
17) minimal, and meaningful, fast travel - fast travel is a privilege, not a right mentality
18) non-instanced dungeons
19) willing to gear up others before yourself to progress
20) mobs that can 2-shot you are in every zone
This basically nails it. Especially class and role reliance, grouping and keeping everything completely open (non-instanced) and contested.
edit- oops didn't see number 5.
Also, don't know about the whole "8 hours sessions" to progress. In EQ1, you could progress at a lot of things in but a few hours. Every moment felt meaningful to me, even when I could only play for a few hours. Just having 30 minutes to travel from one city to another was time well spent.
I don't see why a game can't satisfy both the hardcore audience and casual audience at the same time.
Let me explain this in one simple example. The old Knight Online - never claimed to be hardcore, but it kinda is for todays low standards. Every death caused a loss of 3% experience for current level. Not much, huh? Well, for a level 5 it is not much, but for level 60 it was around 2 hours of farming in good party. High level monsters could 1 hit KO you, if you weren't careful. If you played for 6 hours straight, you got anything from 6% to -60% some people deleveled. Imagine a casual in that environment. Imagine someone playing two hours a day. Imagine he dies two times and now he needs another two days to get back to were he was
So I say again, what does hardcore mean to you
- death penalty
- one hit KO for high level monsters
- monsters have debuffs
- progressing needs to be slow
- level cap is not for everyone
Note:
It is not the time, that casuals lack, it is patience. If something takes a lot of time to be done, it doesn't matter if you have 1 hour a day or 6, you will get there eventually if you keep going. But it requires effort, something that scares people away now.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by simmihi Originally posted by Iselin"Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."[mod edit]
Awesome answer. Post of the day for me.
If I want fun, I'll watch cartoons. I play games to engage and challenge my brain; and there can be no challenge without risk.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
MMOs have never been challenging or engaging - they have been tedious and boring, that is the reason why they had to be changed.
Chess is a really challenging and engaging game. However, there is no grind and no elitisism, no epic gear and no stupid hardcore vs casual discussion.
My advise: Learn to play an Instrument, this is one of the most challenging and engaging things, but you get more fun than in any video game ever made.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
hardcore game includes things like exp loss upon death,
8-12 months to get to max level,
grouping to get important quests done,
mobs that can one shot you in most zones just to name a few.
hardcore gamer is one that can devote time to the game; those that think about what they are going to do in game while they are at work. they plan their day around the game and are willing to lose sleep to wait for that group doing the run for that rare piece of armor.
Originally posted by Iselin"Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."[mod edit]
Awesome answer. Post of the day for me.
If I want fun, I'll watch cartoons. I play games to engage and challenge my brain; and there can be no challenge without risk.
So engaging and challenging your brain isn't fun for you? Why do you do it then?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Warning: This is a very generalized paintbrush, and applied quite broadly. If you consider yourself 'hardcore' you may want to skip reading the following, rather than reaching for your report button. It is only personal opinon. Thank you.
"Hardcore: Willing to self-appoint myself to the position, and eager to tell everyone who might listen how badass I am at every possible opportunity."
Sure, that's not very flattering. But I've been watching the forum antics for about three decades now. To me; "hardcore" is a synonym for "poseur". Self-aggrandizement addicts. Hubris huggers. MMOsochists.
The longer this thread goes the more I'm leaning toward your answer being the best one
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Master a game like DARK SOULS and not happy about the score reached, restart it again but now using the weakest charachter available and finish it again and after that in his mind he thinks: Ok now I'm ready to participate at the annual Championship in Las Vegas!!!
in my experience as a CASUALplayer HardCore players are elitist jerks, who think they are miles above players who don't master a heroic dungeon or raid in 1 run, who don't aknowledge the fact that other players have a life outside the MMORPG. This is MY experience with HC-players, in PUG's and with guild-members... They never have time to help you learning the boss mechanics of bosses in Dungeons and/or raids.
First of all let me say that reading these responses perfectly illustrates why game developers hate to use terms like "hardcore" and "casual."
Having said that, my definition of hardcore and casual has almost everything to do with the amount of time the person can spend playing the game.
To me someone is 'hardcore' when they devote 25 or more hours a week to a game. The 'casual' players are those who spend significantly less time playing.
I hate that many try to equate 'casual' with being bad at a game. Many casual gamers still want to do well and research and theorycraft so as to be the best they can be, it's just that they can't log on for 3+ hours a day playing.
Of course generally there is some correlation between time played and committment and ability. Of course if you play the game more often it would tend to reason that you will likely become better at it then someone who plays half as much as you. This is of course not a blanket statement, but rather a generalization.
Hardcore: I think Icewhite came up with what is probably the best answer. But, much less eloquently...
Hardcore is the state of gaming where you want to be recognized for doing things the 'hard' way, all while living inside a bubble that protects you from things that are actually meaningful. For example, the 'hardcore' wants full world pvp! But...no friendly fire, that would take actual skill. Forced grouping! But...only so long as they have friends. A huge guild! But...make sure to selectively enforce who can join a guild. 8 hours to advance! But...only so long as -they- have 8 hours to spend. Corpse runs! But...only when things can't arbitrarily kill you outside of group dynamics (which, because of forced grouping, are always there). Insane camping! But...only so long as big guilds are required, so they don't have to camp 24/7 by themselves. It's all cyclical, and comes back to making sure there are others around to carry you when you -don't- want to be 'hardcore'. You'll notice they very seldom, if ever, ask for insanely difficult solo content. That's not an accident.
Or, more directly and in short, "Hardcore is the state where you want risk to be meaningful and punishing, but are afraid to have an actual channel mod".
hardcore/casuals are approachecs to a certain game hardcore the time you spent in game you are seeking to put effort in and be as efficient as you can casual you just are there for fun not overly concerned with your results
people tend to identify hardcore/casual with time but its not always true one can be hardcore and play alot or a little one can be casual and play alot or a little its more about the effort/motivation involved
no you just are misunderstanding diablo hardcore is hardcore because you have to spend extra effort to avoid consequences its actualy a good example it doesnt matter how much time you put in but the time you do put in you better be hardcore or you will be more likely to slip up and die
The definition of "hardcore" depends on context. It basically comes down to three different broad concepts. Ill explain how each of those concepts relate to gaming:
Intensity, severity, relentless ect. Related to gaming difficulty or risk.
Dedicated, Confirmed, Die-Hard ect. Referencing playtime or hours put in more than anything else
Fundamental, Pure, "to the core." This is probably the least common usage in gaming. Something like "Hardcore EQ fan" makes the most sense.
Its all kind of subjective. I find that playtime is the most controversial. Some people consider "hardcore" to be 12+ hours a day (84 hours a week), and some consider it to be anything past 20 hours a week. In my mind, "hardcore" = part time job (or no job), with the rest of the persons day to day life spent on games.
The definition of "hardcore" depends on context. It basically comes down to three different broad concepts. Ill explain how each of those concepts relate to gaming:
Intensity, severity, relentless ect. Related to gaming difficulty or risk.
Dedicated, Confirmed, Die-Hard ect. Referencing playtime or hours put in more than anything else
Fundamental, Pure, "to the core." This is probably the least common usage in gaming. Something like "Hardcore EQ fan" makes the most sense.
Its all kind of subjective. I find that playtime is the most controversial. Some people consider "hardcore" to be 12+ hours a day (84 hours a week), and some consider it to be anything past 20 hours a week. In my mind, "hardcore" = part time job (or no job), with the rest of the persons day to day life spent on games.
Saying someone is hardcore because they spend a ton of time in a game is simply false.
But the correct use of hardcore in terms of time would be "Soandso spends 20 hours playing a game, that's hardcore!" Soandso does not have to be a hardcore gamer but the time he devotes to a game is hardcore he could be a casual player and devote 20 hours a day to a game.
Hardcore/Casual is more about the attitude one takes to a game at large not just one aspect like time spent you have to identify time spent specifically for it to mean time spent but when you talk about a Hardcore/Casual player themselves when not refering to their playtime specifically it is about the attitude, effort, dedication and efficency of the player.
Basically it is possible to be a hardcore player on a casual time schedule, as well as a Casual player on a Hardcore time schedule.
It means a person who plays the game more than others and is on the cutting edge of content and often can mean is very skilled relative to the demands of the game.
In the context of:
"It's a hardcore game"
It could mean that the game has a very real and tangible difficulty in achieving one, multiple or all of the games major objectives: whether that means mob per mob - battles are tougher, or access to content is difficult to obtain, or losing has harsh penalties, or some combination of that and several others.
In the context of:
"Some planets have a hard core"
It means that the center of the planet is not liquid.
Comments
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
Diffucult - Devs not fearing to have people fail.. and learn.. and become better (this is what builds characters and stories).
Consequence - Mistakes or poor decisions matters, playing well is rewarded (keeps long term players interested, makes newbies have something to stride for).
Rewarding - Putting time and efford into the game will make You signifcantly better than those who put less efford (and that is ok).
Advanced - Multiple solutions to everything from combat to builds to roles to playstyle (or call it Diversity).
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
A state of mind that can be achieved or induced and must be maintained for motivation. So the devs have to rig the entire game or they quit. I don't want to play in a façade anymore.
I will play a game where the hardcore slaughter me the entire time I play, but I wont play any game where the makers invite everyone to play then pick sides. Or consider a game that is designed to keep a group elevated. Been there.
Ill watch tv instead if this is how pc games work now.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Hardcore Game: A game that requires skill to play and has harsh penalties for playing like a moron. EVE is a good example of this.
Hardcore Gamer: Someone who thinks they are some kind of special snowflake and calls anybody who disagrees with them casual. They generally have the least to show in game except a large number after typing in a command similar to /played.
And fun!
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Sad, but true.
This basically nails it. Especially class and role reliance, grouping and keeping everything completely open (non-instanced) and contested.
edit- oops didn't see number 5.
Also, don't know about the whole "8 hours sessions" to progress. In EQ1, you could progress at a lot of things in but a few hours. Every moment felt meaningful to me, even when I could only play for a few hours. Just having 30 minutes to travel from one city to another was time well spent.
Let me explain this in one simple example. The old Knight Online - never claimed to be hardcore, but it kinda is for todays low standards. Every death caused a loss of 3% experience for current level. Not much, huh? Well, for a level 5 it is not much, but for level 60 it was around 2 hours of farming in good party. High level monsters could 1 hit KO you, if you weren't careful. If you played for 6 hours straight, you got anything from 6% to -60% some people deleveled. Imagine a casual in that environment. Imagine someone playing two hours a day. Imagine he dies two times and now he needs another two days to get back to were he was
- death penalty
- one hit KO for high level monsters
- monsters have debuffs
- progressing needs to be slow
- level cap is not for everyone
Note:
It is not the time, that casuals lack, it is patience. If something takes a lot of time to be done, it doesn't matter if you have 1 hour a day or 6, you will get there eventually if you keep going. But it requires effort, something that scares people away now.
Hard core: noun
1 : anyone who plays MMORPG's more than I do
2 : anyone who is richer, has better gear, belongs to a larger guild, etc than me
3: anyone who plays and enjoys the same "hardcore" MMORPG's that I do instead of WOW and it's many clones
See also: Leet gamers, Diehards, Old-schoolers and BitterVets
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If I want fun, I'll watch cartoons. I play games to engage and challenge my brain; and there can be no challenge without risk.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
MMOs have never been challenging or engaging - they have been tedious and boring, that is the reason why they had to be changed.
Chess is a really challenging and engaging game. However, there is no grind and no elitisism, no epic gear and no stupid hardcore vs casual discussion.
My advise: Learn to play an Instrument, this is one of the most challenging and engaging things, but you get more fun than in any video game ever made.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
hardcore game includes things like exp loss upon death,
8-12 months to get to max level,
grouping to get important quests done,
mobs that can one shot you in most zones just to name a few.
hardcore gamer is one that can devote time to the game; those that think about what they are going to do in game while they are at work. they plan their day around the game and are willing to lose sleep to wait for that group doing the run for that rare piece of armor.
So engaging and challenging your brain isn't fun for you? Why do you do it then?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The longer this thread goes the more I'm leaning toward your answer being the best one
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Master a game like DARK SOULS and not happy about the score reached, restart it again but now using the weakest charachter available and finish it again and after that in his mind he thinks: Ok now I'm ready to participate at the annual Championship in Las Vegas!!!
Signed,
THE HARDCORE GAMER
First of all let me say that reading these responses perfectly illustrates why game developers hate to use terms like "hardcore" and "casual."
Having said that, my definition of hardcore and casual has almost everything to do with the amount of time the person can spend playing the game.
To me someone is 'hardcore' when they devote 25 or more hours a week to a game. The 'casual' players are those who spend significantly less time playing.
I hate that many try to equate 'casual' with being bad at a game. Many casual gamers still want to do well and research and theorycraft so as to be the best they can be, it's just that they can't log on for 3+ hours a day playing.
Of course generally there is some correlation between time played and committment and ability. Of course if you play the game more often it would tend to reason that you will likely become better at it then someone who plays half as much as you. This is of course not a blanket statement, but rather a generalization.
Hardcore: I think Icewhite came up with what is probably the best answer. But, much less eloquently...
Hardcore is the state of gaming where you want to be recognized for doing things the 'hard' way, all while living inside a bubble that protects you from things that are actually meaningful. For example, the 'hardcore' wants full world pvp! But...no friendly fire, that would take actual skill. Forced grouping! But...only so long as they have friends. A huge guild! But...make sure to selectively enforce who can join a guild. 8 hours to advance! But...only so long as -they- have 8 hours to spend. Corpse runs! But...only when things can't arbitrarily kill you outside of group dynamics (which, because of forced grouping, are always there). Insane camping! But...only so long as big guilds are required, so they don't have to camp 24/7 by themselves. It's all cyclical, and comes back to making sure there are others around to carry you when you -don't- want to be 'hardcore'. You'll notice they very seldom, if ever, ask for insanely difficult solo content. That's not an accident.
Or, more directly and in short, "Hardcore is the state where you want risk to be meaningful and punishing, but are afraid to have an actual channel mod".
hardcore/casuals are approachecs to a certain game hardcore the time you spent in game you are seeking to put effort in and be as efficient as you can casual you just are there for fun not overly concerned with your results
people tend to identify hardcore/casual with time but its not always true one can be hardcore and play alot or a little one can be casual and play alot or a little its more about the effort/motivation involved
I got tired of answering this question over and over, so i made this helpful chart of what "casual" and "hardcore" mean to me:
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
The definition of "hardcore" depends on context. It basically comes down to three different broad concepts. Ill explain how each of those concepts relate to gaming:
Saying someone is hardcore because they spend a ton of time in a game is simply false.
But the correct use of hardcore in terms of time would be "Soandso spends 20 hours playing a game, that's hardcore!" Soandso does not have to be a hardcore gamer but the time he devotes to a game is hardcore he could be a casual player and devote 20 hours a day to a game.
Hardcore/Casual is more about the attitude one takes to a game at large not just one aspect like time spent you have to identify time spent specifically for it to mean time spent but when you talk about a Hardcore/Casual player themselves when not refering to their playtime specifically it is about the attitude, effort, dedication and efficency of the player.
Basically it is possible to be a hardcore player on a casual time schedule, as well as a Casual player on a Hardcore time schedule.
In the context of:
"he's a hardcore player"
It means a person who plays the game more than others and is on the cutting edge of content and often can mean is very skilled relative to the demands of the game.
In the context of:
"It's a hardcore game"
It could mean that the game has a very real and tangible difficulty in achieving one, multiple or all of the games major objectives: whether that means mob per mob - battles are tougher, or access to content is difficult to obtain, or losing has harsh penalties, or some combination of that and several others.
In the context of:
"Some planets have a hard core"
It means that the center of the planet is not liquid.