Thank you for the replies and for the links. They are both insightful and discuss age old problems. You are indeed correct, I did come from a p&p AD&D model, along with many other TSR games. But notice I did not limit progression in an MMO to simply character progression. Perhaps that is central in my mind, or a big piece of it, but I also mentioned the other things that SWG was good at and could have been great at....guild progression, guild city progression, GCW progression, etc. ZOMG the possibilities if SOE would have actually ever progressed the timeline with the player GCW actually impacting that progression...
But yes, I would also agree that many pure themepark MMOs, impoverished ones, as you say, have distilled progression down to the lowest common denominator of level and skills. It is a pity, and is why games like TOR, pure on the rails theme parks, that completely squander the potential of their underlying IP in the virtual space, are such abject failures. It is also not a coincidence that these failed games have little to no ability for players to contribute content...they are rigid and static, and thoroughly disappointing for anyone looking for a robust virtual experience.
As far as power mad leveling game design...lol...well, I think you might agree that SWG would have been much better off if all character progression didn't point to and end with a jedi grind.
Many many players did it or started it simply because it was the only progression available. And, as I mentioned, since the game gutted the classes and ended up with a handful of classes anyway, keeping the old skill point system and having it flow into several high end classes, instead of just one, would have been very workable, IMO. Also, please, remember the IP. Jedi were matchable. Google "Beilert Valance" for instance. He went toe to toe with Vader. The coolness factor of adding the ability to become a dark trooper for imperial players, or a Rebel Fleet Commando, or several other ideas the player base threw out, would all have been very well received, and would have made tremendous sense, progression and IP wise.
As far as power mad leveling game design...lol...well, I think you might agree that SWG would have been much better off if all character progression didn't point to and end with a jedi grind.
Many many players did it or started it simply because it was the only progression available. And, as I mentioned, since the game gutted the classes and ended up with a handful of classes anyway, keeping the old skill point system and having it flow into several high end classes, instead of just one, would have been very workable, IMO.
Also, please, remember the IP. Jedi were matchable. Google "Beilert Valance" for instance. He went toe to toe with Vader. The coolness factor of adding the ability to become a dark trooper for imperial players, or a Rebel Fleet Commando, or several other ideas the player base threw out, would all have been very well received, and would have made tremendous sense, progression and IP wise.
great interview. I betaed both UP and SWG. Loved UO but I was one of the SWG quitters when the holocron grind was revealed. Totaly killed the game for me. Enjoyed the beta though and I wonder if Raph remembers the arguments about the initial healing system and ranged healing ? Still between SOE's failure to ever give the bio engs any love and the cluster farce of a Jedi grind I just could not take it anymore. By then the urban sprawl had set in and planets started looking like Detroit. I tried to go back after SOE totally screwed it up just to see the space combat but lasted about a day before I gave up in disgust.
Anyway blast from the past and all that but that was then and this is now. I guess I changed with the times . I now want my MMO's fast and furious like GW2, the old days of having friends over in UO to see my new aquarium I built were fun for the time.
Anyway Raph if you read this , thanks for the good times
As far as power mad leveling game design...lol...well, I think you might agree that SWG would have been much better off if all character progression didn't point to and end with a jedi grind.
It wasn't supposed to. But such the the lure of Jedi, this great power fantasy that sucks people in. Those who had been perfectly happy as cantina dancers, suddenly craved being Jedi. How could they not?
But even the crippled system we implemented didn't "point to and end" with Jedi; it was a hidden system.
Also, please, remember the IP. Jedi were matchable. Google "Beilert Valance" for instance. He went toe to toe with Vader.
He lost. Also, it involved being a cyborg. Also, he was barely canon, because at that point we were privy to all Stormtroopers being clones, which was not yet known to fans.
Really, though, it's pretty hard to justify having any significant fraction of the game's population being able to go toe to toe with Vader, isn't it?
The coolness factor of adding the ability to become a dark trooper for imperial players, or a Rebel Fleet Commando, or several other ideas the player base threw out, would all have been very well received, and would have made tremendous sense, progression and IP wise.
Dark Trooper was out for the clone reason. Did you know players actually threatened to march on our office if they couldn't play Stormtroopers? We couldn't tell them why it wasn't allowed until the movie came out.
I'm not saying we were opposed to offering more advancement, mind you. But I would have pursued advancement in other ways. For example, unveiling new hybrid classes that unlocked only through particular combos of skills was something that I wanted to try.
"I wish that the genre had kept building on what we did with UO and SWG instead."
You and me both, Raph.
You know, what's it say for the industry when the games have taken the turn that they have? I mean, they aren't even games, they are hand-outs. You pay something, you are given by design a constant stream of wins. This is little kid, blue ribbon stuff for all ages. It's really a sad thing, in my mind.
What I find particularly frustrating with the current batch of MMOs is all the emphasis is being placed on combat and making combat faster. Crafting is relegated to clicking a button and watching a progress bar. Non-combat professions aren't even a consideration. The further along we go the fewer features/systems are included and what is included lacks depth. It's hard to get immersed when a new game already feels old, like something I've played before. I feel like I get less for my money with each new MMO than I was getting 10 years ago. Ironically, single player open-world games are the ones now that seem more innovative and provide more value relative to their cost.
Man you nailed it imo. Combat needs something to give it contrast. Combat all the time is bland because it's the only thing to do, and thus there is nothing exciting about it. Making combat only games with simple interfaces compounds the problem. They are one step away from reverting the whole damn genre to the Gauntlet Arcade game.
"I wish that the genre had kept building on what we did with UO and SWG instead."
You and me both, Raph.
You know, what's it say for the industry when the games have taken the turn that they have? I mean, they aren't even games, they are hand-outs. You pay something, you are given by design a constant stream of wins. This is little kid, blue ribbon stuff for all ages. It's really a sad thing, in my mind.
What I find particularly frustrating with the current batch of MMOs is all the emphasis is being placed on combat and making combat faster. Crafting is relegated to clicking a button and watching a progress bar. Non-combat professions aren't even a consideration. The further along we go the fewer features/systems are included and what is included lacks depth. It's hard to get immersed when a new game already feels old, like something I've played before. I feel like I get less for my money with each new MMO than I was getting 10 years ago. Ironically, single player open-world games are the ones now that seem more innovative and provide more value relative to their cost.
Man you nailed it imo. Combat needs something to give it contrast. Combat all the time is bland because it's the only thing to do, and thus there is nothing exciting about it. Making combat only games with simple interfaces compounds the problem. They are one step away from reverting the whole damn genre to the Gauntlet Arcade game.
Edit to delete. I always get excited in this sort of thread, then realize later that everyone else is talking about something other than I. Think I'll take a break and just watch.
Thumbs up to paying homage to someone that should be FORGOTTEN about.
Koster is partly responsible for the genre being in the massive rut it is in today. The man hasn't gotten any backing in 7 years for a REASON. He ruins games. He claims he left UO before its downturn yet if you look at the time he left and the release of the all destructive expansion that ruined the game you can see HE was still head designer well into the development of the expansion. HE was the one that chose the random generated world design of SWG and the complete lack of 3D x/y axis that hampered the game in a massive way as well as the horrible database design that required a daily downtime to fix. HE was in charge of the making of EQ2 that caused it to BOMB at the start and his decisions with it was so damn bad it took 2 expansions to fix, not before Sony finally exiled him to making console games.
Rose colored glasses, take them off...he wasn't even responsible for the success of UO, he was THIRD in line behind Lord British, he didn't take over until after the first expansion. The man got a rep off of others.
Thumbs up to paying homage to someone that should be FORGOTTEN about.
Koster is partly responsible for the genre being in the massive rut it is in today. The man hasn't gotten any backing in 7 years for a REASON. He ruins games. He claims he left UO before its downturn yet if you look at the time he left and the release of the all destructive expansion that ruined the game you can see HE was still head designer well into the development of the expansion. HE was the one that chose the random generated world design of SWG and the complete lack of 3D x/y axis that hampered the game in a massive way as well as the horrible database design that required a daily downtime to fix. HE was in charge of the making of EQ2 that caused it to BOMB at the start and his decisions with it was so damn bad it took 2 expansions to fix, not before Sony finally exiled him to making console games.
Rose colored glasses, take them off...he wasn't even responsible for the success of UO, he was THIRD in line behind Lord British, he didn't take over until after the first expansion. The man got a rep off of others.
I followed UO during it's development, and he was the lead designer during those months before release.
The UO expansions you're talking about, I assume you mean Trammel. Those were EA's orders, he didn't have a choice. Rampant PKing was driving players away and EA acted. I do fault Raph and the team for not getting it right before that happened. They were so close, so very close, in my opinion.
I didn't know he had anything to do at all with EQ2. But as he already pointed out in the OP article, there were conflicting opinions at SOE. Blaming him seems like a real stretch.
His rep is much stronger within the industry than with us gamers. I don't think that would be the case if what you are claiming were true.
Jason, just about every single thing in your post is incorrect.
After leaving SOE I ran a venture-backed studio. Then I sold it.
When I left UO can be checked by just checking game credits. I was lead designer on Second Age, and Anthony Castoro was the lead on Renaissance. I was on Live for a period in-between there, but in pratice, I moved off to work on multiple titles that never shipped.
I did choose to use procedural terrain for SWG. Not random -- big difference. The tech had a tool which artists could use to sculpt, and which you can find written up in the old letters from the team -- still available on the Wayback Machine archives. Lots of artists did have trouble with it. The tech went on to have a patent filed, and to win a graphics award. It also made ten gigabytes worth of map fit onto the shippable CDs. Otherwise, you wouldn't have been able to have all the planets and space.
No, i didn't choose the lack of a vertical axis. I hated it, but I had to defend it publicly, as the spokesperson. Feel free to disbelieve that one. It was a tech limitation the programmers handed me.
I definitely didn't do database design (!). You can check the game credits. I DID set the requirement that every item had to store unique stats. Without that, the crafting system would have worked like all the others -- every crafted item would have been the same, stamped form a mold.
I was never in charge of EQ2. Again, check the credits. I was CCO at the time, which meant I mostly worked as a troubleshooter for challenged projects (many of which never saw the light of day, they were TOO troubled), I ran R&D projects, and did milestone reviews and biz dev type stuff.
Never got "exiled" to making console games either. The above explains the credits on the PSP/PS3 games.
As has been told a zillion times by now, Richard really wasn't involved day to day on UO. If you don't believe me, you can check the video he sent in when UO was given that Hall of Fame Award at GDCOnline a couple of years ago. I was "creative lead" on the original, and "lead designer" on Second Age.
Feel free to dislike me, but c'mon, most all the above is public record.
Originally posted by Amaranthar The UO expansions you're talking about, I assume you mean Trammel. Those were EA's orders, he didn't have a choice. Rampant PKing was driving players away and EA acted. I do fault Raph and the team for not getting it right before that happened. They were so close, so very close, in my opinion.
I don't even know whether Trammel came from EA or just from Gordon Walton (OSI_Tyrant) who was producer at that point. I suspect the METHOD of Trammel was Anthony Castoro aka Sunsword. Like I said, I wasn't on it anymore! I did briefly consult on a way to reduce macroing in that time period -- my solution didn't work that well, as it was what led to 8x8 macroing.... an improvement, I suppose, but nowhere near enough of one.
I agree we were getting close with the rep stuff, but didn't get there. On SWG, I proposed Outcasting as the punishment that we never arrived at in UO.
way I see it is if enough people really wanted socialization games like 2nd life and A tale in the desert would have tens of millions of players. Only a small percentage are socializers. Remember Bartles ? Pure socializers and pure killers are only a small yet vocal part of the community. Myself I am a explorer which explains why I love GW2. SWG offered some of that but for the most part the majority of the worlds were pretty uninteresting.
In my opinion UO and SWG were social top heavy and neglected the achievers. UO was successful at it's release because it was the only game in town and the MUD/MUSH/MOO people were thrilled to have a MUD with graphics
WoW was and is successful for the most part because it caters to the acheivers with its gear grind raid end game. The fact that kids could run it on Mom's hand me down Dell because of the simplistic graphics did not hurt either.
Just my opinion. I was a long time MUME player before UO for whatever that is worth. Want a hard game ? MUME is still up and running I believe. All of you hard core gamers need to try and survive a single night in that game if you want a challenge
As far as power mad leveling game design...lol...well, I think you might agree that SWG would have been much better off if all character progression didn't point to and end with a jedi grind.
It wasn't supposed to. But such the the lure of Jedi, this great power fantasy that sucks people in. Those who had been perfectly happy as cantina dancers, suddenly craved being Jedi. How could they not?
But even the crippled system we implemented didn't "point to and end" with Jedi; it was a hidden system.
Also, please, remember the IP. Jedi were matchable. Google "Beilert Valance" for instance. He went toe to toe with Vader.
He lost. Also, it involved being a cyborg. Also, he was barely canon, because at that point we were privy to all Stormtroopers being clones, which was not yet known to fans.
Really, though, it's pretty hard to justify having any significant fraction of the game's population being able to go toe to toe with Vader, isn't it?
The coolness factor of adding the ability to become a dark trooper for imperial players, or a Rebel Fleet Commando, or several other ideas the player base threw out, would all have been very well received, and would have made tremendous sense, progression and IP wise.
Dark Trooper was out for the clone reason. Did you know players actually threatened to march on our office if they couldn't play Stormtroopers? We couldn't tell them why it wasn't allowed until the movie came out.
I'm not saying we were opposed to offering more advancement, mind you. But I would have pursued advancement in other ways. For example, unveiling new hybrid classes that unlocked only through particular combos of skills was something that I wanted to try.
Seems like we are having problems communicating. Simple misunderstandings.
It is simple to me. The game had basic classes, then elite classes, then one alpha class. There was absolutely no reason to have only ONE class at the level of jedi, with progression content. That is my point. There should and could have been several. One of the options I mentioned was Bounty Hunter-Killer (HK) or Bounty Hunter Cyborg. BHs were incredibly popular, and a more powerful version, one that had to complete progression quests to gain cybernetics, which would give him the edge to take out a jedi, or other powerful prey, is a perfect example of what could have been. Valance is a canon example of such a Cyborg BH that wiped the floor with Luke Skywalker (which was at the level that any jedi in SWG should have been, tbh...a barely trained novice force sensitive), and later, managed to bring Vader to his KNEES. Yes, he eventually lost. Of course, he had to...Just as any player would have. He was an example of a prototype for a class that easily could have made it into the game, not some statement about what a player might be able to do to Vader....lol.
Again, as just an example, a BH Cyborg would have been a great customer for DE's for parts, and for Advanced WS's and AS's for weapons and Armor. As I mentioned, "alpha" class equivalents for all classes to progress into could have happened, and they would have needed each other, easily, which would have continued the social structure and interdependent nature of the game.
If Darktrooper was out, although I'm not sure it needed to be, then Imperial Guard, or Emperor's Hand Trainee, or whatever. If a darktroopers organic parts were cloned, then perhaps his cybernetic parts could have offered the uniqueness...many of them were experimental anyway. Regardless, I could spit out multiple possibilities in seconds, Im sure you guys could have come up with a host of lore rooted candidates for other high end classes that would have rocked...
Much later in the game, DE was able to make cyborg parts that players could use. So cyborgs very much became a part of SWG.
way I see it is if enough people really wanted socialization games like 2nd life and A tale in the desert would have tens of millions of players. Only a small percentage are socializers. Remember Bartles ? Pure socializers and pure killers are only a small yet vocal part of the community.
Actually, Nick Yee has much better numbers on populations now. Socializers are, of course, the groups that power Twitter and Facebook.
In my opinion UO and SWG were social top heavy and neglected the achievers. UO was successful at it's release because it was the only game in town and the MUD/MUSH/MOO people were thrilled to have a MUD with graphics
WoW was and is successful for the most part because it caters to the acheivers with its gear grind raid end game. The fact that kids could run it on Mom's hand me down Dell because of the simplistic graphics did not hurt either.
Yeah, neither did the fact that it had more people in beta thanks to the power of the brand, than most any MMO manages at peak subscribers. I think that the power of that brand can't be overstated, it was a huge difference in WoW's success and brought them the majority of their players. They became the biggest game on day one through pre-orders, before people had played the game.
They also outspent the dev cost of every prior MMO by like a factor of 5, of course. Doesn't hurt!
Mind you, I think that both UO and SWG also benefited hugely from brand. EQ benefited a lot from the tie to the rise of 3d graphics hardware, though at the time it seemed like a huge risk.
That said, I agree with you that for the core gamer market, achiever is the most important target.
Jedi should have never been in SWG as a playable Profession. End of story.
It doesnt fit the Time that the game was set in. Perpetually stuck between ANH and ESB.
There was only 1 Jedi. Yoda. Vader and the Empire killed the rest. Luke was a Padawan.
Maybe there could have been a "profession" that used some type of Force Sensitive abilities, but not Jedi.
Where would they get the training?
Now had SWGs story advanced through the movies and beyond (into the EU), then maybe Jedi could have been introduced into the game as by that time Luke was a full Jedi and was rebuilding the Order.
But then LA would lose all those Iconic and Star Warsy characters that had died.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
All I can say is thanks Raph! I'm glad I got to play SWG and UO and was part of such a great era of MMO's. The only issue I have is you made everything that came after it feel like fast food compared to a thick new york steak.
I believe this to be false, but a very understandable assumption.
MMOs are encumbered by a one dimensional concept of progression. It could mean so much more than the number of digital blobs eliminated per hour. It just that we're stuck in "might makes right v1.0 and can't seem to shake that.
It's not that I think we should eliminate combat from a virtual world, but that progression should mean more than combat and commerce.
I think it should be central to mmos if it were about moving your personal living story forward. It's all about creating our own adventure in another realm right? When I think of all the books I've read, the ones that have grabbed me the most have been about people progressing through this adventurous series of events, often out of control with a life of their own. That's what progression should be about.
If you have a musical troupe, a band, that travels around the virtual world, there should be some way to represent, in a tangible manner, their improvement through game experience. Some of that will be real as the player learns their craft and becomes adept at the underlying mechanics. Some of that should be through abilities that avatar gains and hones as they ply that trade in the virtual world.
So, to me, that is progression and most central to MMOs. But I would caveat that with not every MMO needs to be an RPG and tied to that RPG sense of progression. There can be many takes on the MMO. As you say, the social peeople are driving social online platforms. I play mmo in my favorite IRC channels and talk with people all over the world.
I'd like to see social get into the gameplay instead of outside it in chat formats. It's not an all or nothing thing, of course. But there is far too little social interaction inside of game play. And I don't mean chatting, I mean interaction as game play.
I think Black Desert has something that will help. A knowledge system where a player can pass along specific knowledge like it's a tangible thing (I saw it as a PC to NPC, but hope it's also PC to PC). If used right between players, cheat sites no longer matter when this is involved, and players seeking out other players inside the game starts to work. The social part starts to work as they haggle over the value, or consider "factions" or competitive status.
And Raph, think about this in relationship to Outcasting too.
MMOs are encumbered by a one dimensional concept of progression. It could mean so much more than the number of digital blobs eliminated per hour. It just that we're stuck in "might makes right v1.0 and can't seem to shake that.
Sort of offtopic but I don't agree. I think you are simply using the mainstream MMOs as your reference and they cater to the largest audience . That is just good business, mainstream MMO's focus on achievement because the majority of MMO'ers primarily play for the achievement. Look outside the mainstream and you can find niche MMo's that cater to almost every taste.
Each time I go over to the games list here I am amazed at the number of MMO's that I have never heard of or played. All different flavors. None of them will ever have millions of players of course but the people who do play them are pretty passionate abut them. Seek and thou shall find
Just my opinion again but people tend to put themselves in a box and then complain, some can't see the the forest for the trees
Once again using GW2 as a example there is no raid centric gear grind in it. I just spent 2 hours going around and tagging waypoints with one of my level 80's. Only rewards were personal satisfaction and a skill point or 2 of which I already have dozens on that toon. While I was sightseeing and tagging WP's I was chatting on Vent with a old friend who was playing a different game and we were discussing politics, news and TV shows
I loved the database used in SWG for items. The fact that every item was a 3d object that you could put down in your house or the world made even "junk" into something. Every item had a serial number, so even a manufactured power handler had it's own identity in a way.
In the early days if you crafted a carbine and put a scope in the recipe, it actually appeared on the weapon. Same for stocks and barrels. I remember shopping for an EE3 that was stripped down just because I liked the look of it.
The lack of the vertical axis was always a bummer, but the world itself was well made, and had the size and actual landmarks to make exploration something worthwhile. With day/night and weather, there was a sense of being in those places at times, and the game was very immersive.
Finally, the ability to put houses in the landscape was a good feature, and even though there was a downside in the clutter, I would rather have the freedom to place objects in the world rather than have it be the static play place of the devs alone. If decay on houses would have led to automatic pack-up the system would have been perfect, but as it was, I will take the housing tracts that have interesting décor and vendors over the same static area any day.
At the risk of this being nostalgic player tribute #432Ac1, I just want to say that to me, you were right, and you are still right to this day.
Originally posted by falc0n Wonderful interview. It was great hearing some of the behind the scenes conflicts with SWG. This man is a pioneer. Hopefully mmos can get back tothe way they were 10 years ago.
Thats all nice and good. But the problem is, that it is not true.
Look. As Raph said themself, and as i personally see it. They (Raph and other) tried a lot of new stuff with UO, but also skipped a lot of stuff because of time constraints, because that the game become bigger(more people playing simultanly) as they thought in the beginning and all that things.
It was a very good starting point for virtual worlds, for world simulations, where player can live, where player can shape the world.. but it was just a starting point and withit very limited(although far ahead of its time and everything that followed). But always if you do things like that you get into problems you did not expect, like houses all over the place, like pking running rampart, and a lot more stuff.
More or less at the same time or a little bit later Everquest appeared with the more restricted DikuMUD as foundation, and even more restricting.. it was a lot more game, it was a lot less world... and it was in 3D, and maybe because of all or maybe just because of the 3D and the more game combat Everquest was more successful(not a lot, but more successful) and almot everything after the early days based their MMO from EQ, with little tweaks here and there. WoW finally completed that design or let say made it even more mainstream, more game and almost everyone and especially the industry really forgot UO.
On the other side Raph himself and SWG did just partly build up on UO, but instead tried more to fix some of the problems, and had to fight with the restricting IP, with the higher budget and of course with expectations. Some things were improved, some fixes worked.. other not so good, and other were just limiting and withit just a cheap hot fix, and some problems were introduced newly.
Two other games at that time also tried to build upon UO.. that was on the one side EvE, which introduced regional markets, different security zones. On the other side shadowbane, which in introduced territorial warfare and tried terraforming somewhat(although the idea is a lot older.. i would say back to populous).
And those 3 games all released 2003.. the so called 2nd sandbox generation after UO. And after that time more or less nothing.. or just a few indy attempts, but just with more or less resemble those old ideas and concepts without bringing anything new to the table. Maybe it is time to just resemble all parts and do it right.. but in my humble opinion it would be more important to think further to develop above those foundations, to evolve virtual world, sandbox design.
Up to now most announced games try just to resemble everything working, almost noone brings something new to the table, although EQN emergent AI(not really a new idea, but not used up to now) and layered world design is at least somewhat new.. on the other side EQN will most probably cater a lot to the mainstream audience and will be limited because of that.. they can't go beyond the roof. And i don't see any other one even trying it. Maybe and for a me a very big "maybe" someone will try it after those first revival attempts of bringing back sandbox gaming.. at least if a few are successful.
But as Raph said, nowadays with the extremely high, but mandatory bugdets it is almost impossible to really try something completely new.. it is just to expensive to even try it out.
Originally posted by Raph I would be remiss if I didn't say thank you to all the folks saying nice things.
If you need to hear nice things, there are plenty of nice things to say about you. You're one of the genuine pillars of modern gaming. Etc.
If you want to engage the topic, it won't always be so adulatory - you've had hits and misses, and I have a feeling that gaming is about to leapfrog a generation of design minds.
The critical feature of early online gaming, including the stuff you worked on, was that it grew out of a face-to-face gameplay milieu. Many thousands and ultimately millions of players worldwide, in basements, in rec rooms, in dorm rooms, at conventions: interacting with each other, improvising, terminologizing, storming out of the room, peeling off variations, trying stuff, giving feedback, and so on and so on. This powerful permanent floating laboratory gave gaming a strength and resilience that has carried it for 40 years. Nothing done in corporate game studios can compare to it.
Eventually this will find a way to happen again, with new tools and new paradigms for "face to face." When it does, today's AAA dinosaurs will look 50 years old.
If you think the creature handler was broken and unbalanced then you don't understand how SWG was balanced. It wasn't balanced in the traditional sense where they make class A = class B = class C. SWG was balanced on idea that players would play all the classes and not just one. Besides a Jedi would destroy a creature handler even with 3 rancors. In order to play the Jedi you had to master all the classes first. This included playing both the weak classes and the strong classes. You couldn't just pick the strong classes, that was out of the question. This is where the balance came in, you had to play all the classes. The classes were only transient points on the way to becoming a Jedi. If all you did was play one class in SWG then you were doing it wrong.
Personally the class I am most nostalgic for is entertainers. I liked it because it played like no other class in any other MMO. Entertainers didn't even have combat moves. All they did is buff and restore the vitality of other classes and had the ability to own and operate inns and taverns. How do you balance a class that doesn't fight at all? You can't not in the traditional sense. But still they were part of the game and you had to make one and master it to become a Jedi. Everyone had to go through the weak points. This is what made SWG genuinely hard and complex in ways that no other MMO has been able to hold a candle too.
The original balance was only changed because whiny care bears couldn't figure out how to play the game and then upper management forced Ralph Koster's hand. I am here to say screw you care bears you ruined the best MMO ever made.
How long did it take you to switch classes? You make it sound like Rift and you could swap out you build in seconds. It took months to train up all the trees of a profession. That is assuming you're switching to a base class, it certainly didn't apply to the alpha class (a class Raph himself regrets including.). If you wanted to switch to a jedi to face that guy 'pwning' you yesterday you were in for a enough of an investment of time that the jedi you are seeking revenge against wouldn't even remember your name when you came back. The whole idea that you could switch classes in response to meeting a class that is more powerful than yours is spurious logic at best, and purposeful misinformation at worst.
How do you balance a class that doesn't fight at all? Are you grasping at straws? Making a player that enjoys action and combat sit silently in front of a social player is a terrible idea. The action gamer will sit there silently wishing he didn't have to waste time this way, and the social player will wish the other player would start or hold a conversation with them and fulfill their idea of fun. In the end you have two players dragged out of their idea of fun into an awkward and frustrating experience for both. That isn't good game design by any estimate. It certainly isn't used as an example of good game design by anyone who knows how to create good games.
The original balance was changed because it was BROKEN. The devs, the producers, and Raph himself have stated. As far as whining, PvEers don't whine about class balance. They are cooperating. So a powerful class helps them in their goal. They don't care if the classes are unbalanced as long as collectively they can achieve their goal. Here's a shocker for you, it's the PvPers that whine about each others classes. THEY are the ones that covet their neighbor and try to tear down the other guy. If PvEers are 'carebears' then the appropriate pejorative for PvPers is 'crybabies'. (I know this firsthand, I was a PvE stun mace rogue in vanilla wow. I read the river of tears threads from PvPers about the class I enjoyed, and not one PvEer had a problem with the build. but the crying PvPers ruined it for everyone, just like always.)
Oh my, you either did not play SWG or completely misunderstood the game. Classes were never supposed to be balanced, ever. A good MMO never balances classes, MMO's are not meant to be played singularly. Balance is putting together a good group that matches up well with others.
There was nothing broken about SWG, the real positive thing about the game was that there were few Jedi and a good offensive player could still easily match up with a Jedi. SWG was not about pvp at all, you could pvp in the game, but most did not.
The housing itself was brilliant, you could choose the city you wanted to live in, or build a guild city. Some areas were crowded, others not.
And don't give me that nonsense that people played the game because they could take advantage of cheats. Very few did that.
The space portion of the game was very well liked. Many of us continued to play the game after NGE because of the fun you could have in your space ships.
Thanks for sharing this, Adam. It was a great read and I learned somethings today
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
Thank you for the replies and for the links. They are both insightful and discuss age old problems. You are indeed correct, I did come from a p&p AD&D model, along with many other TSR games. But notice I did not limit progression in an MMO to simply character progression. Perhaps that is central in my mind, or a big piece of it, but I also mentioned the other things that SWG was good at and could have been great at....guild progression, guild city progression, GCW progression, etc. ZOMG the possibilities if SOE would have actually ever progressed the timeline with the player GCW actually impacting that progression...
But yes, I would also agree that many pure themepark MMOs, impoverished ones, as you say, have distilled progression down to the lowest common denominator of level and skills. It is a pity, and is why games like TOR, pure on the rails theme parks, that completely squander the potential of their underlying IP in the virtual space, are such abject failures. It is also not a coincidence that these failed games have little to no ability for players to contribute content...they are rigid and static, and thoroughly disappointing for anyone looking for a robust virtual experience.
As far as power mad leveling game design...lol...well, I think you might agree that SWG would have been much better off if all character progression didn't point to and end with a jedi grind.
Many many players did it or started it simply because it was the only progression available. And, as I mentioned, since the game gutted the classes and ended up with a handful of classes anyway, keeping the old skill point system and having it flow into several high end classes, instead of just one, would have been very workable, IMO.
Also, please, remember the IP. Jedi were matchable. Google "Beilert Valance" for instance. He went toe to toe with Vader. The coolness factor of adding the ability to become a dark trooper for imperial players, or a Rebel Fleet Commando, or several other ideas the player base threw out, would all have been very well received, and would have made tremendous sense, progression and IP wise.
I miss DAoC
great interview. I betaed both UP and SWG. Loved UO but I was one of the SWG quitters when the holocron grind was revealed. Totaly killed the game for me. Enjoyed the beta though and I wonder if Raph remembers the arguments about the initial healing system and ranged healing ? Still between SOE's failure to ever give the bio engs any love and the cluster farce of a Jedi grind I just could not take it anymore. By then the urban sprawl had set in and planets started looking like Detroit. I tried to go back after SOE totally screwed it up just to see the space combat but lasted about a day before I gave up in disgust.
Anyway blast from the past and all that but that was then and this is now. I guess I changed with the times . I now want my MMO's fast and furious like GW2, the old days of having friends over in UO to see my new aquarium I built were fun for the time.
Anyway Raph if you read this , thanks for the good times
I miss DAoC
It wasn't supposed to.
But such the the lure of Jedi, this great power fantasy that sucks people in. Those who had been perfectly happy as cantina dancers, suddenly craved being Jedi. How could they not?
But even the crippled system we implemented didn't "point to and end" with Jedi; it was a hidden system.
He lost. Also, it involved being a cyborg. Also, he was barely canon, because at that point we were privy to all Stormtroopers being clones, which was not yet known to fans.
Really, though, it's pretty hard to justify having any significant fraction of the game's population being able to go toe to toe with Vader, isn't it?
Dark Trooper was out for the clone reason. Did you know players actually threatened to march on our office if they couldn't play Stormtroopers? We couldn't tell them why it wasn't allowed until the movie came out.
I'm not saying we were opposed to offering more advancement, mind you. But I would have pursued advancement in other ways. For example, unveiling new hybrid classes that unlocked only through particular combos of skills was something that I wanted to try.
Man you nailed it imo. Combat needs something to give it contrast. Combat all the time is bland because it's the only thing to do, and thus there is nothing exciting about it. Making combat only games with simple interfaces compounds the problem. They are one step away from reverting the whole damn genre to the Gauntlet Arcade game.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Edit to delete. I always get excited in this sort of thread, then realize later that everyone else is talking about something other than I. Think I'll take a break and just watch.
Once upon a time....
Thumbs up to paying homage to someone that should be FORGOTTEN about.
Koster is partly responsible for the genre being in the massive rut it is in today. The man hasn't gotten any backing in 7 years for a REASON. He ruins games. He claims he left UO before its downturn yet if you look at the time he left and the release of the all destructive expansion that ruined the game you can see HE was still head designer well into the development of the expansion. HE was the one that chose the random generated world design of SWG and the complete lack of 3D x/y axis that hampered the game in a massive way as well as the horrible database design that required a daily downtime to fix. HE was in charge of the making of EQ2 that caused it to BOMB at the start and his decisions with it was so damn bad it took 2 expansions to fix, not before Sony finally exiled him to making console games.
Rose colored glasses, take them off...he wasn't even responsible for the success of UO, he was THIRD in line behind Lord British, he didn't take over until after the first expansion. The man got a rep off of others.
I followed UO during it's development, and he was the lead designer during those months before release.
The UO expansions you're talking about, I assume you mean Trammel. Those were EA's orders, he didn't have a choice. Rampant PKing was driving players away and EA acted. I do fault Raph and the team for not getting it right before that happened. They were so close, so very close, in my opinion.
I didn't know he had anything to do at all with EQ2. But as he already pointed out in the OP article, there were conflicting opinions at SOE. Blaming him seems like a real stretch.
His rep is much stronger within the industry than with us gamers. I don't think that would be the case if what you are claiming were true.
Once upon a time....
Jason, just about every single thing in your post is incorrect.
I don't even know whether Trammel came from EA or just from Gordon Walton (OSI_Tyrant) who was producer at that point. I suspect the METHOD of Trammel was Anthony Castoro aka Sunsword. Like I said, I wasn't on it anymore!
I did briefly consult on a way to reduce macroing in that time period -- my solution didn't work that well, as it was what led to 8x8 macroing.... an improvement, I suppose, but nowhere near enough of one.
I agree we were getting close with the rep stuff, but didn't get there. On SWG, I proposed Outcasting as the punishment that we never arrived at in UO.
way I see it is if enough people really wanted socialization games like 2nd life and A tale in the desert would have tens of millions of players. Only a small percentage are socializers. Remember Bartles ? Pure socializers and pure killers are only a small yet vocal part of the community. Myself I am a explorer which explains why I love GW2. SWG offered some of that but for the most part the majority of the worlds were pretty uninteresting.
In my opinion UO and SWG were social top heavy and neglected the achievers. UO was successful at it's release because it was the only game in town and the MUD/MUSH/MOO people were thrilled to have a MUD with graphics
WoW was and is successful for the most part because it caters to the acheivers with its gear grind raid end game. The fact that kids could run it on Mom's hand me down Dell because of the simplistic graphics did not hurt either.
Just my opinion. I was a long time MUME player before UO for whatever that is worth. Want a hard game ? MUME is still up and running I believe. All of you hard core gamers need to try and survive a single night in that game if you want a challenge
I miss DAoC
I totally agree
Seems like we are having problems communicating. Simple misunderstandings.
It is simple to me. The game had basic classes, then elite classes, then one alpha class. There was absolutely no reason to have only ONE class at the level of jedi, with progression content. That is my point. There should and could have been several. One of the options I mentioned was Bounty Hunter-Killer (HK) or Bounty Hunter Cyborg. BHs were incredibly popular, and a more powerful version, one that had to complete progression quests to gain cybernetics, which would give him the edge to take out a jedi, or other powerful prey, is a perfect example of what could have been. Valance is a canon example of such a Cyborg BH that wiped the floor with Luke Skywalker (which was at the level that any jedi in SWG should have been, tbh...a barely trained novice force sensitive), and later, managed to bring Vader to his KNEES. Yes, he eventually lost. Of course, he had to...Just as any player would have. He was an example of a prototype for a class that easily could have made it into the game, not some statement about what a player might be able to do to Vader....lol.
Again, as just an example, a BH Cyborg would have been a great customer for DE's for parts, and for Advanced WS's and AS's for weapons and Armor. As I mentioned, "alpha" class equivalents for all classes to progress into could have happened, and they would have needed each other, easily, which would have continued the social structure and interdependent nature of the game.
If Darktrooper was out, although I'm not sure it needed to be, then Imperial Guard, or Emperor's Hand Trainee, or whatever. If a darktroopers organic parts were cloned, then perhaps his cybernetic parts could have offered the uniqueness...many of them were experimental anyway. Regardless, I could spit out multiple possibilities in seconds, Im sure you guys could have come up with a host of lore rooted candidates for other high end classes that would have rocked...
Much later in the game, DE was able to make cyborg parts that players could use. So cyborgs very much became a part of SWG.
Actually, Nick Yee has much better numbers on populations now. Socializers are, of course, the groups that power Twitter and Facebook.
Yeah, neither did the fact that it had more people in beta thanks to the power of the brand, than most any MMO manages at peak subscribers.
I think that the power of that brand can't be overstated, it was a huge difference in WoW's success and brought them the majority of their players. They became the biggest game on day one through pre-orders, before people had played the game.
They also outspent the dev cost of every prior MMO by like a factor of 5, of course.
Doesn't hurt!
Mind you, I think that both UO and SWG also benefited hugely from brand. EQ benefited a lot from the tie to the rise of 3d graphics hardware, though at the time it seemed like a huge risk.
That said, I agree with you that for the core gamer market, achiever is the most important target.
Jedi should have never been in SWG as a playable Profession. End of story.
It doesnt fit the Time that the game was set in. Perpetually stuck between ANH and ESB.
There was only 1 Jedi. Yoda. Vader and the Empire killed the rest. Luke was a Padawan.
Maybe there could have been a "profession" that used some type of Force Sensitive abilities, but not Jedi.
Where would they get the training?
Now had SWGs story advanced through the movies and beyond (into the EU), then maybe Jedi could have been introduced into the game as by that time Luke was a full Jedi and was rebuilding the Order.
But then LA would lose all those Iconic and Star Warsy characters that had died.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
I'd like to see social get into the gameplay instead of outside it in chat formats. It's not an all or nothing thing, of course. But there is far too little social interaction inside of game play. And I don't mean chatting, I mean interaction as game play.
I think Black Desert has something that will help. A knowledge system where a player can pass along specific knowledge like it's a tangible thing (I saw it as a PC to NPC, but hope it's also PC to PC). If used right between players, cheat sites no longer matter when this is involved, and players seeking out other players inside the game starts to work. The social part starts to work as they haggle over the value, or consider "factions" or competitive status.
And Raph, think about this in relationship to Outcasting too.
Once upon a time....
Sort of offtopic but I don't agree. I think you are simply using the mainstream MMOs as your reference and they cater to the largest audience . That is just good business, mainstream MMO's focus on achievement because the majority of MMO'ers primarily play for the achievement. Look outside the mainstream and you can find niche MMo's that cater to almost every taste.
Each time I go over to the games list here I am amazed at the number of MMO's that I have never heard of or played. All different flavors. None of them will ever have millions of players of course but the people who do play them are pretty passionate abut them. Seek and thou shall find
Just my opinion again but people tend to put themselves in a box and then complain, some can't see the the forest for the trees
Once again using GW2 as a example there is no raid centric gear grind in it. I just spent 2 hours going around and tagging waypoints with one of my level 80's. Only rewards were personal satisfaction and a skill point or 2 of which I already have dozens on that toon. While I was sightseeing and tagging WP's I was chatting on Vent with a old friend who was playing a different game and we were discussing politics, news and TV shows
I miss DAoC
I loved the database used in SWG for items. The fact that every item was a 3d object that you could put down in your house or the world made even "junk" into something. Every item had a serial number, so even a manufactured power handler had it's own identity in a way.
In the early days if you crafted a carbine and put a scope in the recipe, it actually appeared on the weapon. Same for stocks and barrels. I remember shopping for an EE3 that was stripped down just because I liked the look of it.
The lack of the vertical axis was always a bummer, but the world itself was well made, and had the size and actual landmarks to make exploration something worthwhile. With day/night and weather, there was a sense of being in those places at times, and the game was very immersive.
Finally, the ability to put houses in the landscape was a good feature, and even though there was a downside in the clutter, I would rather have the freedom to place objects in the world rather than have it be the static play place of the devs alone. If decay on houses would have led to automatic pack-up the system would have been perfect, but as it was, I will take the housing tracts that have interesting décor and vendors over the same static area any day.
At the risk of this being nostalgic player tribute #432Ac1, I just want to say that to me, you were right, and you are still right to this day.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Thats all nice and good. But the problem is, that it is not true.
Look. As Raph said themself, and as i personally see it. They (Raph and other) tried a lot of new stuff with UO, but also skipped a lot of stuff because of time constraints, because that the game become bigger(more people playing simultanly) as they thought in the beginning and all that things.
It was a very good starting point for virtual worlds, for world simulations, where player can live, where player can shape the world.. but it was just a starting point and withit very limited(although far ahead of its time and everything that followed). But always if you do things like that you get into problems you did not expect, like houses all over the place, like pking running rampart, and a lot more stuff.
More or less at the same time or a little bit later Everquest appeared with the more restricted DikuMUD as foundation, and even more restricting.. it was a lot more game, it was a lot less world... and it was in 3D, and maybe because of all or maybe just because of the 3D and the more game combat Everquest was more successful(not a lot, but more successful) and almot everything after the early days based their MMO from EQ, with little tweaks here and there. WoW finally completed that design or let say made it even more mainstream, more game and almost everyone and especially the industry really forgot UO.
On the other side Raph himself and SWG did just partly build up on UO, but instead tried more to fix some of the problems, and had to fight with the restricting IP, with the higher budget and of course with expectations. Some things were improved, some fixes worked.. other not so good, and other were just limiting and withit just a cheap hot fix, and some problems were introduced newly.
Two other games at that time also tried to build upon UO.. that was on the one side EvE, which introduced regional markets, different security zones. On the other side shadowbane, which in introduced territorial warfare and tried terraforming somewhat(although the idea is a lot older.. i would say back to populous).
And those 3 games all released 2003.. the so called 2nd sandbox generation after UO. And after that time more or less nothing.. or just a few indy attempts, but just with more or less resemble those old ideas and concepts without bringing anything new to the table. Maybe it is time to just resemble all parts and do it right.. but in my humble opinion it would be more important to think further to develop above those foundations, to evolve virtual world, sandbox design.
Up to now most announced games try just to resemble everything working, almost noone brings something new to the table, although EQN emergent AI(not really a new idea, but not used up to now) and layered world design is at least somewhat new.. on the other side EQN will most probably cater a lot to the mainstream audience and will be limited because of that.. they can't go beyond the roof. And i don't see any other one even trying it. Maybe and for a me a very big "maybe" someone will try it after those first revival attempts of bringing back sandbox gaming.. at least if a few are successful.
But as Raph said, nowadays with the extremely high, but mandatory bugdets it is almost impossible to really try something completely new.. it is just to expensive to even try it out.
If you need to hear nice things, there are plenty of nice things to say about you. You're one of the genuine pillars of modern gaming. Etc.
If you want to engage the topic, it won't always be so adulatory - you've had hits and misses, and I have a feeling that gaming is about to leapfrog a generation of design minds.
The critical feature of early online gaming, including the stuff you worked on, was that it grew out of a face-to-face gameplay milieu. Many thousands and ultimately millions of players worldwide, in basements, in rec rooms, in dorm rooms, at conventions: interacting with each other, improvising, terminologizing, storming out of the room, peeling off variations, trying stuff, giving feedback, and so on and so on. This powerful permanent floating laboratory gave gaming a strength and resilience that has carried it for 40 years. Nothing done in corporate game studios can compare to it.
Eventually this will find a way to happen again, with new tools and new paradigms for "face to face." When it does, today's AAA dinosaurs will look 50 years old.
Oh my, you either did not play SWG or completely misunderstood the game. Classes were never supposed to be balanced, ever. A good MMO never balances classes, MMO's are not meant to be played singularly. Balance is putting together a good group that matches up well with others.
There was nothing broken about SWG, the real positive thing about the game was that there were few Jedi and a good offensive player could still easily match up with a Jedi. SWG was not about pvp at all, you could pvp in the game, but most did not.
The housing itself was brilliant, you could choose the city you wanted to live in, or build a guild city. Some areas were crowded, others not.
And don't give me that nonsense that people played the game because they could take advantage of cheats. Very few did that.
The space portion of the game was very well liked. Many of us continued to play the game after NGE because of the fun you could have in your space ships.
Thanks for sharing this, Adam. It was a great read and I learned somethings today
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR