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FATE=ez mode, dungeon=hard mode
gessekai332
Member UncommonPosts: 861
Hi guys, I am a lvl 30 gladiator and upon finishing my 2nd run of Hauke mansion, I am concluding that dungeons in this game are actually a challenge, at least for tanks (and possibly healers). maybe its just me, or gladiators in general, but it is no easy task to keep up agro against groups of mobs, especially since the radius for flash is deceivingly small and does no damage. since we tanks get agro meters we can watch the agro levels of our party members, and healers and some dps generate a crazy amount of agro (if healer spams aoe heal then forget about it). add to this, the complication of adds spawning on top of your party during a boss fight while the boss is casting her aoe and the adds simultaneously doing their own aoes and you have utter chaos. I don't know about you guys but I found a really good balance of easy and difficult content. if I want to take it easy I will just quest and do fates, if I want a challenge I will do dungeons.
also I have some questions:
- Do other gladiators have this problem? Do marauders have it easier? (maybe i'm just bad lol)
- what do healers think about dungeons and the difference between tanks?
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Comments
What I have found, is that as a tank if you are geared well enough for your level and use your defensive cooldowns, as well as pick up a few more defensive cooldowns from other classes (for example both Lancer and Pugilist have defensive cooldowns you can pick up pretty darn quick for cross-class)
and if you actually use the target markers, or have a DPS player use their target markers so everyone is on the same target, aggro is not an issue.
Aggro is an issue if DPS and Tank are attacking different targets, because the AoE enmity is not so great you need your direct damage attacks (two hit combo for gladiator mostly) to keep aggro on a target both the DPS are wailing away on.
Your AoE should then be enough to keep the other targets locked on you, but if DPS isn't getting out of red circles and taking damage and the healer has to use too many AoE heals, or you (the tank) is taking too much damage from being undergeared or not using defensive cooldowns...
Aggro will be a problem and you will lose it.
This is a much more "old school" approach to dungeons and aggro - much like Vanilla WoW or BC.
Every person in the party has to play their role up to par or the group will have problems.
This is not WoW LK/Cata/MoP where the tank can generate infinite AoE threat and healers can just spam all day and DPS can go balls to the walls.
Dungeons do get much harder later. I viewed them as getting progressively more difficult. As you go on, I believe this will be the case.
That being said, a good group can make anything seem easier while a bad group can make everything seem much harder. This is where guilds can be a real blessing. Running with people you know and have an understanding of the game goes along way IMO.
Which bosses are tank and spank? Isn't that where the tank holds the boss and you just burn it down because there are no other mechanics?
I've only done the first 9 dungeons but I haven't found the boss with no mechanics yet. You must be farther along.... Hope you're right and the dungeons get easier, all these noob tanks are making some of these later dungeons painful.
1) i'm geared well enough
2) i do use target markers
3) attacking the same mob is pretty standard for tanking so this normally is not a problem
4) if i am pulling 3 or more creatures one of them at some point maybe towards the end will run to the healer, i usuallly have to throw a provoke to get them back to me.
5) i've tanked before in other mmorpgs, like aion, rift, secret world, so its not something completely foreign to me. personally im finding it more challenging than other games in terms of dungeons
6) do you play marauder or gladiator? what skill rotation do you use and how often do you use flash to keep aggro?
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Surly you jest, OP.
Lately there has been thread after thread explaining that "when you have a trinity setup, there is no complicated agro rules, or mechanics".
/sarcasm off
(on a personal note this sounds more and more like a game I will try.)
It's not that the game or dungeons are hard. They just get harder unexpectedly. If you read enough comments here and on the official forums you'll notice its not really common knowledge that A LOT of the early content(even into the 20s) is really designed for someone that has never played an mmo.
You can run into the first dungeons with a pug group and faceroll because of how forgiving the mechanics are. Then players get to the late 20s/early 30 dungeons and it's "OMG THEY'RE TOO HARD!!! HOW CAN THEY MAKE THESE PART OF THE STORY QUEST?!?!"
When I got to 32 and did Brayflax(is that what it was called?) I joined a group in progess(bad decision) and the tank was gone and it was me chatting with another dps and the healer. The healer was 35 and had done the run multiple times a night for days and still could not progress the story because he couldn't get a group that could finish. Apparently, they could never find a tank that could pickup adds and not stand in fire.
I ended up doing that dungeon two time back to back with 0 wipes. If you're an mmo player that has spend years doing dungeon content then you've seen these mechanics. You know to target what the tank is targeting. You know not to stand in fire. As wow has shown with all their novelty raid boss fights over the years(drive a tank, fly a dragon, steer the boss with it's legs) there is only so much you can do with a boss fight when all your character than do is run, jump, attack, and click.
Best advice: Ask if anyone has not done a dungeon. Give strats(I've explained so many dungeons, but I'd rather type for a minute than wipe for an hour). And if you're tanking, mark the targets. Put a little "1" over it's head and say "attack this one". This game also has decent CC so that can help. If you mark a target and lose threat because they attack something else it is now their fault.
i still need answers to these questions:
1) are gladiators or marauders able to hold aggro for a group of enemies better?
2) if you are a gladiator, how often should you use flash vs your single target aggro skills to maintain optimal group aggro?
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
From a healer's point of view it depends a lot on how good tanks and dps's avoid dmg (red areas). When the tank doesn't dodge (run away from that area) or the dps's take that hit everything fucks up. Also, healers can check on their own aggro, which can help decide if its worth healing or you can wait a bit more.
Also those dmg reduction skills of the tank when he is losing the aggro are useful, because the healer can wait longer before the next cast.
Edit:
1) from my experience marauder can keep the aggro better, i think because a aoe attack they do very often (dunno the name).
2) Never played a tank in this game, but i would say single target aggro on the target mob, aoe aggro on all mobs so they dont attack the healer.
the problem i am having if i pull lets say 3 mobs, everyone attacks my targets in order, i am avoiding aoe, and using aoe taunt every so often, the last mob will sometimes start attacking the healer towards the end of the fight. the aoe taunt for gladiator does no damage, seems to generate less aggro than the single target skills and it also drains MP(not tp) so you cannot spam it indefinitely. for gladiator you need to manage your single target aggro, multi target aggro, mp regeneration, and defensive cooldowns. its not as easy as a lot of people are making it seem. in a lot of other games the secondary targets wont attack your party if they were pulled by the tank initially and left alone. but in this game, the secondary targets gradually build up hate towards the healer that competes with tank's aoe taunt, and will eventually attack the healer.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
hmm i see what you mean.
Maybe that aoe skill from marauders is what makes it seems easier. Have you tried cross class skills from marauder or some other class with more aoe (as someone else said) ?
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
We all can only be who we are Nothing more nothing less.
There are some FATES that are somewhat hard. Behemoth, for example, has people shouting in towns that he's up and they need reinforcements. It's also difficult to down mini-boss fates if you don't have a healer present (though still possible with threat juggling and kiting / slowing the enemy with team work).
Though yes, the Dungeons starting from around level 28 start to really get difficult in a lot of ways. I've not see a Duty Finder group not get wiped several times, even if they have 50s in the group with artifact armor. It was a surprise to see trash mobs be able to sleep / stun the healer for 15+ seconds at times as well. Not to mention the boss mechanics on top of having to solve puzzles while trying to beat them and avoid them and everything they through at you. It's definitely recommended to carry a lot of items to cure conditions and the like.
I think that dungeons can be a lot harder than they really are, based on how the dps plays.
First off, everyone can see agro meters for the group. But alot of dps ignore that information and play as though they need to unload and never take a moment to adapt to the changing combat.
Alot of people think to just zerg bosses in this game, but that will get them and their group killed. Ideally, the tank just keeps the boss locked down, moved properly adjusting to whatever ground ae, or directional ae that is occuring. Adds often have very little health, can be kited, or ignored depending on the group. A good healer can even kite and use regen on the tank untill the situation is controlled by the dps.
In the next dungeon, you need the dps to take care of placing and killing adds on preassure plates, without your help. You stick with the boss. If they cant phase out of tunnel visioning the boss dmg, your group will wipe.
But because people just blame the tank, and dont take any personal responsility for adapting to the fights, you are going to have a hard time on occasion. Just leave those groups. Dungeon tool is instant for you, not for the dps.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Marauders have Overpower which is a cone attack that does high threat. It is better for multi target tanking than Flash.
But Flash wont break CCed mobs but will still generate threat on them so maybe you have the healer put one of the mobs to sleep.
Dungeons in FF14 are NOT AoE spam the mobs down affairs. CC is highly recommended.
Also, how much are you tabbing? If you are relying solely on Flash to keep threat on other mobs then you will lose them. What I do is that when a 3 part threat combo I tab to different targets. Like 2 hits on one mob then tab to another do third part.