I disagree with details in the article specifically in terms of what we are calling gold sinks here. IMO a gold sink is a part of the game that requires you to put money in without getting anything of real value in return.
Teleports are NOT gold sinks because you are paying for a service. The value there is saving the time you would of had to travel and I find it appropriately priced. People shouldn't feel entitled to this mode of transportation without having to pay a hefty price. Chocobo porters aren't either and I actually use them quite efficiently to not teleport. They are so cheap the actual "sink" is negligible compared to the time saved at like 1/10th of the price of teleporting or longer for a 1-3 extra minutes of your time.
I also don't think if you as a group fail enough times in a dungeon, that you should be rewarded. This adds to the challenge of the game and places more value upon living and makes the game more exciting in that sense knowing that you actually have something to lose.
A 3rd point I want to make is that I think the big issue with the economy and the players , more specifically the ones that already hit max level, rushed to the end using FATEs. I believe the exp is too large but the expense is at not producing any gil. I have no problem personally on gil since I take my time, do all the quests just to experience the game, but I'm also equally rewarded for my time in exp and money compared to the exp rush of FATE where time is saved for exp only at the expense of not producing gil.
If a player is going to be allowed to maximize on a single part of the rewards system, they can't complain about not having the other resource when it starts to matter. They should of considered their choices harder or learn a bit about money management as they teleported to every place and focused only on one activity that didn't pay gil before making these decisions. This is the price at winning one part of the game, they essentially lose at the other parts of the game that they purposefully ignored.
Just because you are maximum level doesn't mean you are entitled to have an equivalent in resource, the players that lack in resources, IMO, represent their personal choices and strategies better in this MMO than many others where bad choices aren't penalized nearly as much. I welcome it personally and hope FFXIV doesn't plan on deviating too much from its course in regards to its economy.
I am not playing right now ,so i cannot accurately talk about it but on paper,it sounds exactly like FFXI's economy.
You could walk in and spend a year playing and still not see or understand the entire economy design and how it works.
Square has found that for whatever reason via FFXI,there will end up being far too much game currency,so needed ways to filter it out of the system.It pretty much is RMT that causes it,i see it in all games and how pricing gets out of hand.
They also intend players to EARN things in game,if currency is too simple to get,players can freely do whatever they want feeling like nothing is actually earned.Just look at the Chocobo idea,they do not simply hand it over,you have to earn it,that is their game design philosophy.
I think it would be wise to take a long hard look at the economy design after about 4-6 months,i highly doubt people are seeing the whole picture.Like i said Square DOES tend to find ways to filter gil out,so there should be no surprise and it still works.They do not like vendor trash and easy currency designs,again should be no surprise,FACT is it all works if no RMT or any outside interference.
Who knows perhaps they have a bigger plan for gil involved in future updates/xpacs ,such as housing or any other idea.As already mentioned by others,they are also trying to keep players from abusing the free ride system of warping,especially since you get a rested state if warping back to rest in sanctuary areas.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
One important consideration is that they tuned the same economy for both legacy and non-legacy players. They may have anticipated that v2.0 would be populated primarily (or at least significantly) by legacy players, those carrying forward millions of gil from before the Calamity. It could be that the economy was designed to strip away some of that excess carry-over gil and inadvertently created an intractable gil problem for servers where that supply did not exist.
Originally posted by Torvaldr The definition of gold sink isn't up for debate. It has a standard definition and isn't subjective. A gold sink is any mechanic in the game which permanently removes gold, or gil in this case, from the game. Period. That's it.Vendor purchases, broker/AH fees, transportation fees, repair costs, and anything else in the game that removes, not transfers, the gold is a sink. Being able to recoup that costs doesn't count unless that actually generates new gold (vendoring to an NPC). If it is player purchased then that is a transfer, while your initial cost was the sink.Any activity, no matter what, that creates clean fresh digital gold out of bits is a gold fountain.So on your list anything that permanently removes gold from the game is a sink whether you want it to be or not. Anything that doesn't is not a sink.
You are actually wrong but I already explained my case. Quite obviously gold sink is up for debate if at least one person disagrees in its usage. I'm sorry but just because you state that it isn't and fail to see the other person's reasoning doesn't make you any more right especially when you do not even directly dispute the claim.
Simply if you are trying to excuse players' poor decisions and rightfully trying to justify that there's a real issue with the economy, then IMO you would have to try better than that. See in actual gold sinks, you literally spend money out of necessity to retain what you currently had i.e. access to current equipment. Repairing doesn't give you anything extra that you had, it represents trying to make up for a loss that occurred.
When you pay for a teleport, the player is actually gaining something, hence its a service being paid for. They don't HAVE to teleport to be able to continue with the game (unlike repair costs). Teleport isn't a result of a loss of anything, the player is merely trying to save time. If you spend money and gain something out of it, its NOT a sink period especially when it isn't a requirement to continue on with the game under regular circumstances.
no matter how well a system is done, once its in players hands, you cant controll the beast. if you did you would just restirct freedom of play/spending etc
at level 25-30 in 2 classes and b/w 12-20 in 2 others, i have manged to maintain ~20k gil for the last several days. for "average" players with moderately low repair costs and occasional transportation fees, this seems very reasonable.
the players that have been most heavily penalised are those that hit the cap in a week and faced enormous repair bills that they were not prepared to pay because they had not done any other activities in the meantime, and/or spent gil indiscriminately in the rush to level. certainly the repair cost patch was needed, but i think SE might have known how to best manipulate the economy long-term...we will see.
Originally posted by Torvaldr The definition of gold sink isn't up for debate. It has a standard definition and isn't subjective. A gold sink is any mechanic in the game which permanently removes gold, or gil in this case, from the game. Period. That's it.
Vendor purchases, broker/AH fees, transportation fees, repair costs, and anything else in the game that removes, not transfers, the gold is a sink. Being able to recoup that costs doesn't count unless that actually generates new gold (vendoring to an NPC). If it is player purchased then that is a transfer, while your initial cost was the sink.
Any activity, no matter what, that creates clean fresh digital gold out of bits is a gold fountain.
So on your list anything that permanently removes gold from the game is a sink whether you want it to be or not. Anything that doesn't is not a sink.
You are actually wrong but I already explained my case. Quite obviously gold sink is up for debate if at least one person disagrees in its usage. I'm sorry but just because you state that it isn't and fail to see the other person's reasoning doesn't make you any more right especially when you do not even directly dispute the claim.
Actually, he is exactly correct. In fact, when I read your response I was going to respond with the same thing, but he did it for me.
Value is irrelevant. The cost is established by designers for the purpose of removing Gil from the economy in order to curb inflation. Otherwise, other mechanics (such as the Return ability's 15 minute cooldown) would be used. This is just MMO game design 101 sort of stuff.
Originally posted by MikeB Actually, he is exactly correct. In fact, when I read your response I was going to respond with the same thing, but he did it for me.
Value is irrelevant. The cost is established by designers for the purpose of removing Gil from the economy in order to curb inflation. Otherwise, other mechanics (such as the Return ability's 15 minute cooldown) would be used. This is just MMO game design 101 sort of stuff.
Well, I'll stand corrected on one note that it is removing currency from a pool and it does affect the value of money.
What I will disagree with is including it as part of the problem within FFXIV's economy and I want to be able to make that distinction and point out that parts of these economy issues are its players' own doing. When I see a player rush to level 50 via FATE's and abuse the teleport system, I believe it should come with a price and thats my theory on what's occurring and where the bulk of these complaints are coming from.
So, maybe I was quick to jump the gun on quickly labeling something but the way I saw it at the time was that you are paying for a service (maybe the money should go find its way back into the pool via increased quest rewards or something) and the analogy was there in comparison to the real world. And I still stand by my point that players' should accept some responsibility for the in-game economy.
Maybe I was quick to point out teleport in such a fashion because it was labeled as part of the problem and the article did little to look at the other side and to remind readers on how much of a choice that really is, which IMO, is one of the biggest sinks that players willingly spend into without thinking too much on the impact to their wallet and the economy.
It's only 14 days after launch and some people are already predicting economic collapse if nothing changes.
They are realising that if they continue to play the game they way they have been playing it, that they will run out of cash. This is not a problem with the way they have been playing, of course, but a problem with the game design ?
Some other players are saying that the way that they are playing, there's no gil shortage problem. They maintain that the game design is quite clever and relies on integrating many different activities.
I'm inclined to believe the second theory. However, if a significant part of the playerbase only wants to race to level-cap and then raid all day, that could pose a problem for SE. They will be faced with the option to either change the game or lose a certain part of the playerbase. The outcome will be interesting to watch...
There is no issue. The only issue I currently see is mmorpg.com and that every column/review etc about FFXIV is negative.
Starting from the still not updated review score 3 weeks after early access (is it really hard to do that ?), over their event criticism and now this economy column. Probably missed some others.
Sorry, but is mmorpg.com on a crusade against FFXIV ? The game might not be the greatest MMO in history and not really revolutionary but really, it's not the MMO devil either.
On the other side mmorpg.com praises a game like EQN which is not even in an alpha state yet to no end. Without having any realy facts to base this on.
I am very disappointed and on the edge on saying goodbye to this site.
It's only 14 days after launch and some people are already predicting economic collapse if nothing changes.
They are realising that if they continue to play the game they way they have been playing it, that they will run out of cash. This is not a problem with the way they have been playing, of course, but a problem with the game design ?
Some other players are saying that the way that they are playing, there's no gil shortage problem. They maintain that the game design is quite clever and relies on integrating many different activities.
I'm inclined to believe the second theory. However, if a significant part of the playerbase only wants to race to level-cap and then raid all day, that could pose a problem for SE. They will be faced with the option to either change the game or lose a certain part of the playerbase. The outcome will be interesting to watch...
Exactly.
The real issue here is not that there is no way to make money in this game at any given level range.
The real issue is that people don't want to do these activities, and would rather only spam the content that gives them epic lootz until they get what they want or can no longer do so due to time restrictions.
In their minds no such thing as "raid preparation" exists.
Which is too bad, because in SE's game design it most certainly does.
Personally I am ecstatic about the fact that money means something in this game. It is not in the backburner like in every other MMO out there. You have to do many different activities to be self-sustaining. I am ecstatic because it makes professions like crafting and gathering infinitely more interesting. Say, gathering from a gameplay perspective is nothing to write home about. It is rather grindy. What makes it interesting is playing with the economy, realizing where money making possibilities are and taking advantage of them. That's what makes gathering interesting, not the actual gameplay of pressing buttons. Getting the confirmation that my stuff has sold on the AH, accumulating my wealth and making me richer than I was before, is an amazing feeling. Very addictive. I don't get similar enjoyment out of other MMO's. Period.
I understand that not everyone likes this, and that is completely fine. But to state that something is *wrong* with the game's *design* when it makes you do these things is complete nonsense.
The fact is that SE can not win here. They can cave in to the people who demand they get to do whatever they want without any thought into how they will finance said activity in which case they will lose me as a player (because that battle classes don't take part in the economy is a complete turn-off). Now if they keep things as they are and the people bothered by it refuse to adapt, SE will lose them.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
ok you want 1000 gil?ok guys lets go do garuda hard ,oh wait?1 gil per kill!oh this should be good to cover the repair cost (if we kill all mob!ya I bet everybody are ready to farm gil
Am I the only one that gets Allagan pieces from chests in the dungeons?? I get several thousand gil per run, in the higher tier dungeons. As of the most recent update, they increased the rate and amount of Allagan drops in all the Lv 50 dungeons as well.
i think a good example to use in this case, to see a game where oney is transferred WAY more than it is actually created, is eve.
in eve, the game only produces money as mission rewards and as bounties for killing NPCs. No other activities in eve actually produce money out of thin air. Miners, builders etc all gain money through player interactions. People who run missions and sell the loot gain money from the missions, the bounties on the NPC and the loot they sell, but they are getting that loot money from other players.
a big difference I think in eve's case is that there are very few actual money sinks. Insurance on ships and Clones and Jump-clones are two. and even as someone who's been playing for 6 years and therefore needs one of the more expensive clones, the darn things are really cheap. It would take me about 10 minutes to generate the ISK (eve money) i need for a new clone shoujld i get podded.
in FF11, gil (money) will be added into the system little by little as the game wears on; i think what SqE need to do most of all is to drastically reduce the costs of their gil sinks. this way more of that money will be circulated among players as opposed to getting incindeated for the cost of a tele. Also, perhaps mobs will drop a few gil.
Itch
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
They actually have resolve for the economy, just watch your chat log there's tons of nice people offering gold/gill and other shinys. They even give you links to websites.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
The definition of gold sink isn't up for debate. It has a standard definition and isn't subjective. A gold sink is any mechanic in the game which permanently removes gold, or gil in this case, from the game. Period. That's it.
No, you're actually not understanding his point. The reason that there is a difference between gold sinks that remove gold for nothing in exchange, and gold costs which take gold in exchange for a benefit like time, is because time has a monetary value in the game. If you pay gold to travel, you are removing money from the game, but adding time to the game which can be spent adding more money to the game. So the game winds up allowing you to generate more in game currency in exchange for taking your currency, a potential wash. A real money sink is when you pay in game currency and get nothing of value in return. The game gives you no time, and takes your money out of the game. That's a money sink.
Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Finally a game where rushing to 50 has its consequences. Average person makes about from 1-50 200k or less if rushed through the fate system. Most who rushed got owned trying to be the first by trying to rush their relic after they already rushed without getting gil. Pre-Relic weaps on non-legacy started off on my server 100-150k and materia 35k+. This actually made them broke so now they want to complain since they cant make tons of extra income.
This is one of the few games that punishes speed leveling. Most games whoever hits 50 first actually becomes the richest due to high gil rewarded quest/daily/dungeons and selling the end stuff for high prices. This game does the opposite...well unless you powerleveled a gather/craft profession whereas that was the complete opposite of fate grind
I have 1 character (lvl 35-38) and couple hundred thousand gil earned via crafting.. at least there are lots out there willing to spend. 1 concern I have is that the new players may find themselves struggling to pay for items on the market at least. As any player can level any class, there will be, perhaps more than most games, a lot of players levelling low level classes with Gil to spend..
Comments
I disagree with details in the article specifically in terms of what we are calling gold sinks here. IMO a gold sink is a part of the game that requires you to put money in without getting anything of real value in return.
Teleports are NOT gold sinks because you are paying for a service. The value there is saving the time you would of had to travel and I find it appropriately priced. People shouldn't feel entitled to this mode of transportation without having to pay a hefty price. Chocobo porters aren't either and I actually use them quite efficiently to not teleport. They are so cheap the actual "sink" is negligible compared to the time saved at like 1/10th of the price of teleporting or longer for a 1-3 extra minutes of your time.
I also don't think if you as a group fail enough times in a dungeon, that you should be rewarded. This adds to the challenge of the game and places more value upon living and makes the game more exciting in that sense knowing that you actually have something to lose.
A 3rd point I want to make is that I think the big issue with the economy and the players , more specifically the ones that already hit max level, rushed to the end using FATEs. I believe the exp is too large but the expense is at not producing any gil. I have no problem personally on gil since I take my time, do all the quests just to experience the game, but I'm also equally rewarded for my time in exp and money compared to the exp rush of FATE where time is saved for exp only at the expense of not producing gil.
If a player is going to be allowed to maximize on a single part of the rewards system, they can't complain about not having the other resource when it starts to matter. They should of considered their choices harder or learn a bit about money management as they teleported to every place and focused only on one activity that didn't pay gil before making these decisions. This is the price at winning one part of the game, they essentially lose at the other parts of the game that they purposefully ignored.
Just because you are maximum level doesn't mean you are entitled to have an equivalent in resource, the players that lack in resources, IMO, represent their personal choices and strategies better in this MMO than many others where bad choices aren't penalized nearly as much. I welcome it personally and hope FFXIV doesn't plan on deviating too much from its course in regards to its economy.
I am not playing right now ,so i cannot accurately talk about it but on paper,it sounds exactly like FFXI's economy.
You could walk in and spend a year playing and still not see or understand the entire economy design and how it works.
Square has found that for whatever reason via FFXI,there will end up being far too much game currency,so needed ways to filter it out of the system.It pretty much is RMT that causes it,i see it in all games and how pricing gets out of hand.
They also intend players to EARN things in game,if currency is too simple to get,players can freely do whatever they want feeling like nothing is actually earned.Just look at the Chocobo idea,they do not simply hand it over,you have to earn it,that is their game design philosophy.
I think it would be wise to take a long hard look at the economy design after about 4-6 months,i highly doubt people are seeing the whole picture.Like i said Square DOES tend to find ways to filter gil out,so there should be no surprise and it still works.They do not like vendor trash and easy currency designs,again should be no surprise,FACT is it all works if no RMT or any outside interference.
Who knows perhaps they have a bigger plan for gil involved in future updates/xpacs ,such as housing or any other idea.As already mentioned by others,they are also trying to keep players from abusing the free ride system of warping,especially since you get a rested state if warping back to rest in sanctuary areas.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You are actually wrong but I already explained my case. Quite obviously gold sink is up for debate if at least one person disagrees in its usage. I'm sorry but just because you state that it isn't and fail to see the other person's reasoning doesn't make you any more right especially when you do not even directly dispute the claim.
Simply if you are trying to excuse players' poor decisions and rightfully trying to justify that there's a real issue with the economy, then IMO you would have to try better than that. See in actual gold sinks, you literally spend money out of necessity to retain what you currently had i.e. access to current equipment. Repairing doesn't give you anything extra that you had, it represents trying to make up for a loss that occurred.
When you pay for a teleport, the player is actually gaining something, hence its a service being paid for. They don't HAVE to teleport to be able to continue with the game (unlike repair costs). Teleport isn't a result of a loss of anything, the player is merely trying to save time. If you spend money and gain something out of it, its NOT a sink period especially when it isn't a requirement to continue on with the game under regular circumstances.
at level 25-30 in 2 classes and b/w 12-20 in 2 others, i have manged to maintain ~20k gil for the last several days. for "average" players with moderately low repair costs and occasional transportation fees, this seems very reasonable.
the players that have been most heavily penalised are those that hit the cap in a week and faced enormous repair bills that they were not prepared to pay because they had not done any other activities in the meantime, and/or spent gil indiscriminately in the rush to level. certainly the repair cost patch was needed, but i think SE might have known how to best manipulate the economy long-term...we will see.
Actually, he is exactly correct. In fact, when I read your response I was going to respond with the same thing, but he did it for me.
Value is irrelevant. The cost is established by designers for the purpose of removing Gil from the economy in order to curb inflation. Otherwise, other mechanics (such as the Return ability's 15 minute cooldown) would be used. This is just MMO game design 101 sort of stuff.
You can read more here.
Well, I'll stand corrected on one note that it is removing currency from a pool and it does affect the value of money.
What I will disagree with is including it as part of the problem within FFXIV's economy and I want to be able to make that distinction and point out that parts of these economy issues are its players' own doing. When I see a player rush to level 50 via FATE's and abuse the teleport system, I believe it should come with a price and thats my theory on what's occurring and where the bulk of these complaints are coming from.
So, maybe I was quick to jump the gun on quickly labeling something but the way I saw it at the time was that you are paying for a service (maybe the money should go find its way back into the pool via increased quest rewards or something) and the analogy was there in comparison to the real world. And I still stand by my point that players' should accept some responsibility for the in-game economy.
Maybe I was quick to point out teleport in such a fashion because it was labeled as part of the problem and the article did little to look at the other side and to remind readers on how much of a choice that really is, which IMO, is one of the biggest sinks that players willingly spend into without thinking too much on the impact to their wallet and the economy.
It's only 14 days after launch and some people are already predicting economic collapse if nothing changes.
They are realising that if they continue to play the game they way they have been playing it, that they will run out of cash. This is not a problem with the way they have been playing, of course, but a problem with the game design ?
Some other players are saying that the way that they are playing, there's no gil shortage problem. They maintain that the game design is quite clever and relies on integrating many different activities.
I'm inclined to believe the second theory. However, if a significant part of the playerbase only wants to race to level-cap and then raid all day, that could pose a problem for SE. They will be faced with the option to either change the game or lose a certain part of the playerbase. The outcome will be interesting to watch...
There is no issue. The only issue I currently see is mmorpg.com and that every column/review etc about FFXIV is negative.
Starting from the still not updated review score 3 weeks after early access (is it really hard to do that ?), over their event criticism and now this economy column. Probably missed some others.
Sorry, but is mmorpg.com on a crusade against FFXIV ? The game might not be the greatest MMO in history and not really revolutionary but really, it's not the MMO devil either.
On the other side mmorpg.com praises a game like EQN which is not even in an alpha state yet to no end. Without having any realy facts to base this on.
I am very disappointed and on the edge on saying goodbye to this site.
Exactly.
The real issue here is not that there is no way to make money in this game at any given level range.
The real issue is that people don't want to do these activities, and would rather only spam the content that gives them epic lootz until they get what they want or can no longer do so due to time restrictions.
In their minds no such thing as "raid preparation" exists.
Which is too bad, because in SE's game design it most certainly does.
Personally I am ecstatic about the fact that money means something in this game. It is not in the backburner like in every other MMO out there. You have to do many different activities to be self-sustaining. I am ecstatic because it makes professions like crafting and gathering infinitely more interesting. Say, gathering from a gameplay perspective is nothing to write home about. It is rather grindy. What makes it interesting is playing with the economy, realizing where money making possibilities are and taking advantage of them. That's what makes gathering interesting, not the actual gameplay of pressing buttons. Getting the confirmation that my stuff has sold on the AH, accumulating my wealth and making me richer than I was before, is an amazing feeling. Very addictive. I don't get similar enjoyment out of other MMO's. Period.
I understand that not everyone likes this, and that is completely fine. But to state that something is *wrong* with the game's *design* when it makes you do these things is complete nonsense.
The fact is that SE can not win here. They can cave in to the people who demand they get to do whatever they want without any thought into how they will finance said activity in which case they will lose me as a player (because that battle classes don't take part in the economy is a complete turn-off). Now if they keep things as they are and the people bothered by it refuse to adapt, SE will lose them.
Am I the only one that gets Allagan pieces from chests in the dungeons?? I get several thousand gil per run, in the higher tier dungeons. As of the most recent update, they increased the rate and amount of Allagan drops in all the Lv 50 dungeons as well.
That's how I get my monies.
i think a good example to use in this case, to see a game where oney is transferred WAY more than it is actually created, is eve.
in eve, the game only produces money as mission rewards and as bounties for killing NPCs. No other activities in eve actually produce money out of thin air. Miners, builders etc all gain money through player interactions. People who run missions and sell the loot gain money from the missions, the bounties on the NPC and the loot they sell, but they are getting that loot money from other players.
a big difference I think in eve's case is that there are very few actual money sinks. Insurance on ships and Clones and Jump-clones are two. and even as someone who's been playing for 6 years and therefore needs one of the more expensive clones, the darn things are really cheap. It would take me about 10 minutes to generate the ISK (eve money) i need for a new clone shoujld i get podded.
in FF11, gil (money) will be added into the system little by little as the game wears on; i think what SqE need to do most of all is to drastically reduce the costs of their gil sinks. this way more of that money will be circulated among players as opposed to getting incindeated for the cost of a tele. Also, perhaps mobs will drop a few gil.
Itch
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Finally a game where rushing to 50 has its consequences. Average person makes about from 1-50 200k or less if rushed through the fate system. Most who rushed got owned trying to be the first by trying to rush their relic after they already rushed without getting gil. Pre-Relic weaps on non-legacy started off on my server 100-150k and materia 35k+. This actually made them broke so now they want to complain since they cant make tons of extra income.
This is one of the few games that punishes speed leveling. Most games whoever hits 50 first actually becomes the richest due to high gil rewarded quest/daily/dungeons and selling the end stuff for high prices. This game does the opposite...well unless you powerleveled a gather/craft profession whereas that was the complete opposite of fate grind