DPS don't take any responsibility of the group, so they don't get to vote.
And yes, they are second class citizens in the group, because there is three of them for each tank and healer.
Don't like it, roll a tank or a healer.
Sorry, but that's how it goes.
This us versus them mentality is what breeds this sort of behavior in the first place. It doesn't matter who started the cycle, but what matters is that people need to learn patience and empathy even in video games!
DPS do have their own responsibility in groups. There are plenty of fights where DPS either have to CC, burn down adds, trigger objects, break people out of objects, and just kill stuff in general. My rotation as a Tank can't be that much more complicated then a DPS if at all.
As someone mentioned earlier, all sides are at fault really. It's just people being people I suppose. Some tanks and healers need to stop acting like prima donna's, and some DPS need to stop acting like they can do no wrong.
P.S. It's two DPS to a group. This game only has 4 man's early on.
Really? They must have hideous queues.
Again ask yourself, why do you think 90% of the players choose to play DPS?
DPS don't take any responsibility of the group, so they don't get to vote.
And yes, they are second class citizens in the group, because there is three of them for each tank and healer.
Don't like it, roll a tank or a healer.
Sorry, but that's how it goes.
This us versus them mentality is what breeds this sort of behavior in the first place. It doesn't matter who started the cycle, but what matters is that people need to learn patience and empathy even in video games!
DPS do have their own responsibility in groups. There are plenty of fights where DPS either have to CC, burn down adds, trigger objects, break people out of objects, and just kill stuff in general. My rotation as a Tank can't be that much more complicated then a DPS if at all.
As someone mentioned earlier, all sides are at fault really. It's just people being people I suppose. Some tanks and healers need to stop acting like prima donna's, and some DPS need to stop acting like they can do no wrong.
P.S. It's two DPS to a group. This game only has 4 man's early on.
Really? They must have hideous queues.
Again ask yourself, why do you think 90% of the players choose to play DPS?
Because most people like to see big numbers and feel like they are the one responsible for the killing blow? Because they think it's less stressful and only want to worry about themselves?
Irregardless, without DPS a tank and healer would have such a painfully long fight or wipe from being overwhelmed.
As to queues I believe DPS have on average 30+ minute queues, healers 5-10 minutes, and Tanks instant to 5 minutes tops. I think I've only had to wait 5 minutes once in queue.
Because most people like to see big numbers and feel like they are the one responsible for the killing blow? Because they think it's less stressful and only want to worry about themselves?
Irregardless, without DPS a tank and healer would have such a painfully long fight or wipe from being overwhelmed.
As to queues I believe DPS have on average 30+ minute queues, healers 5-10 minutes, and Tanks instant to 5 minutes tops. I think I've only had to wait 5 minutes once in queue.
I highlighted the relevant part.
Yes, DPS are of course needed in the group and good DPS can make the fight easier for the tank and faster done.
Nevertheless, it's the "easy job", but it gets equal reward. That's why.
WoW actually implemented a system where tanks and healers got extra rewards. That helped to shorten the DPS queues a bit.
Keep calling your tanks and healers elitist and blaming them for wipes and your queues will grow only longer, while tanks and healers will start enjoying insta-pop every time.
Dont like it, too bad? Thats my experience. Like I said, its only a matter of a short time until players start mastering these other classes as well and it will be a non issue. But the point was, for the time being, those other two classes need to stop acting like twats about it. Or not.
Or you could play a tank or healer, since your'e so awesome. You know, show them how it's done.
Basicly studio's need to make dungeons so fricking hard that if you do not focus dps on the marked target you WIPE. The Tanks and Healers are right on "most" occasions where stupid dps just nuke left and right without following the marked targets.
Tanks and Healers get tired realy quickly of this noob behavior as everyone just needs to do their damn job. Now i am not saying you dont have to take anything from a tank or healer specialy when they start of high and mighty instead of explaining they want a clean and fun run.
So there are 2 sides of the coin.
Sad thing is the whole social aspect of playing mmo's are almost gone. Its very rare you meet new people you make friends with and play more often together. Most just join and want it done within 10 minutes without saying a word. And if it doesnt go fast enough they /leave
I am a healer who is absolutely disgusted by the crap some of these tanks and other healers pull. The duty finder is partially to blame, but I think most of these people are mindless products of modern MMOs. You know, the entitled spoiled lot who can't see past their own noses. They are the same crowd that will devote their lives to reaching cap, whine when developers can't support their habit, then ultimately leave once withdraw sets in. I say good riddance. May that day come soon in FFXIV.
Originally posted by Kajidourden Oh look, another QQ thread.
oh look, another qq oh look post!
@topic: playing dd for ages now (also healed before), and seriously, beeing dd is alot more action. i need to check my position every sec, my agro, my dmg, and all those must be completely correct, or the healer standing 200 meter behind me doing his "hard job" will instantly notice and start crying (since he hasn't got alot to do anyway, they usaualy notice).
whoever thinks heal or tank are more important. is fighting bosses with not enough health ^^
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
Basicly studio's need to make dungeons so fricking hard that if you do not focus dps on the marked target you WIPE.
Trion did with Rift.
The original T2s, especially in the gear available at the time (ie, in the first month or two, before gear inflation set in), required everyone to be on their game. If the DPS weren't up to snuff it didn't matter how good the healer and tank were, you weren't getting past many of the bosses. Standing in fire (or lightning beams, as the case may be) was often insta-kill, there was no "Meh, I'll just stand in these fifty foot flames knowing the healer will save me because if she doesn't I'll bitch so loud it'll burst her eardrums. Mechanics couldn't just be ignored or healed/tanked through. You even needed a secondary healer for many bosses because there were unavoidable mechanics that could and did take the primary out of play for periods of time.
I honestly think that had Trion been willing to "settle" for Rift being a niche game, rather than following their delusions of WoW-level granduer, and stuck with that level of difficulty, the game would be doing tons better than it is. But they didn't. On the forums the screams of "elitism" by the huddled masses who, by and large, couldn't get past the first trash pull were epic. The fact was that the majority of the playerbase was never going to be able to play at the level required for T2s and if there's one thing you can't have in a game today it's content that can't be facerolled by anyone and everyone. So they were all nerfed. And they didn't just hit them with a nerf bat, they used a whole damn nerf planet. Then they hit them again. And again.
Sadly I suspect that's the inevitable fate of any content where the DPSers can't be carried relatively easily.
If you attack the marked mobs in order and follow the strategy, there will be no issues.
if after being told a couple times, you keep spamming AOE´s, awakening marked, binded monsters and then ask me why i am not doing my job, then yes, the "elitist" tank will show up.
One thing is people committing mistakes, of which we are all guilty, and another thing is just mindlessly smashing stuff hoping it goes away, and getting pissy when it does not.
I think the attitude is a global issue and not just tank/healer´s.
It could be that the healers and tanks you've come across are snippy because of previous experiences. If so, try tanking and/or healing and see how that goes. You might find yourself sliding into the same attitudes as the ones you've come across.
It doesn't excuse bad behaviour, it only makes it clear why some are behaving the way they do.
One of the first topics to pop up on the official forums and on Reddit was one complaining about tanks. Then came healers. It might also be that people followed these topics and have been on alert since.
Real elitists are just that, elitists. Nothing can be done about that except not grouping up with people like that. Save yourself the headache. It's just a game. There are more important things to worry about.
i read some where they are going to add an option to maych you with people from your own server via the duty finder. That'll help some with the asshat/anonymity issues.
BUT also remember in most cases you get out of a group what you put in to it.
Actually, unfortunately, you get some bad players and good players. It's the way of the world. Nothing will change. Don't let it get to you. In the end, just ignore the bad and enjoy the good and have fun.
I pretty much only play tanks, I can tell you that I haven't ran into this situation in ff14 so far. I have tanked several dungeons and the groups have been very cool. Perhaps I've just been lucky..
Speaking as a tank though, I fully understand how important the role of dps is. I usually end up thanking the dps players and commenting on being amazed at the amount of damage they put out. If the dps suck, the group will fail, just like any other role.
Not sure what you mean buy 'elitist', other than thinking they are more important that you, which they currently are. DPS is a dime a dozen, and if you leave the group I will find another that suits my needs faster than you. The fact is, if the DPS doesn't listen, and do their job, an easy one at that as you pointed out, then you are wasting everyone's time. I am a PLD, and I am a very good tank, so let me clue you in. This isn't for all tanks, because I recently started playing a DRG (level 30) and see a huge problem with the tanks, but have yet to see what you are describing. On my tank I mark each mob 1-4, and from playing MMOs for the last 13 years I have figured that is the universal symbol for the order you kill stuff, DPS cannot figure this out 50% of the time. Even after explaining it, they will still sometimes not follow simple instructions. First thing is first, if you are not attacking what the tank is attacking you are making everyone's job harder. Tank holds agro, really hard when you are attacking #2 or #3, and he is attacking #1. If you do pull agro, yes even if the tank sucks and does not hold it on #1, run to the tank. Running around a room like a chicken with its head cut off does nothing but make everyone pissed off. You are not dodging the regular non aoe attacks, all you are doing is making the healer dizzy, and the tank curse because his flash or aoe hit is not in range to pull agro. The reason marking is there is because focusing fire is the fastest most efficient way to take a mob down, and guess what, that is your job as the DPS. So, if you aren't following the kill order, you are making it impossible for the tank, impossible for the healer, and extremely hard on yourself. When I play tank I have to explain this to so many people it isn't even funny, and the worse part is the lack of good tanks in the game. After Copperbell Mines, dungeons actually require at least a little bit of skill in order for no deaths to occur. However, I am seeing more tanks A) not use flash or aoe agro constantly, and not use flash or their aoe constantly. I will tell a DPS, a healer, or a tank how to play their class in a heart beat. If you don't like the way I tell you, then leave. It is MY group, because it is MY time, and everyone should feel this way. Be a better player, and if you don't want to do that, then be prepared to be told to be a better player. You will see why it is such a big deal when you are level 50 and doing the end game content, you aren't in Kansas anymore.
The problem OP is that a tank and a healer are 50% of the group and they are deemed the *important* half.
If SE made the group size 5 (6 IMO would be even better), the tank and the healer would be the minority and DPS would have a lot more power (and dungeon groups would be MUCH faster to pop for DPS classes)
But with 4 members per group tanks and healers are gonna feel like they are all that matters.
Tuning the group encounters for 4 people was a mistake on SEs part.
So in order to make tanks and healers less important you plan to put more people who have a hard time following simple instructions in the mix? Queue circus music. Oh and btw, level 50 content is 8 man. Stop complaining about a system in a game that is not broken, and how about getting to end game before saying what 'needs to be fixed'. 4 man does what it is suppose to do, it introduces the concepts of group fighting, working together, and communicating. All of this is meant to make the majority of peoples life a lot better during end game. Oh and one more thing, tanks and healers are what matter, idc if you put 10 DPS in a group, you won't be killing that boss without a tank or a healer. I can tank all day with heals. How does those boss hits feel on you? Stop complaining about what everyone else does, and just know your role. If you learn your role, and someone else's, then you can tell them what they are doing wrong.
Originally posted by DMKano The problem OP is that a tank and a healer are 50% of the group and they are deemed the *important* half.
If SE made the group size 5 (6 IMO would be even better), the tank and the healer would be the minority and DPS would have a lot more power (and dungeon groups would be MUCH faster to pop for DPS classes)
But with 4 members per group tanks and healers are gonna feel like they are all that matters.
Tuning the group encounters for 4 people was a mistake on SEs part.
Um... cause they are lol. Go ahead and do dungeons/raids without one.
The real problem is idiot DPS who cant assist and give absolutely no consideration to the rest of the party and the dynamics involved.
Playing both a tank and a healer I am at the point of just letting the DPS die when they act stupid and selfish. Having to heal you instead of the tank because you need to see big pew pew numbers... sorry dude try that with some other idiots, not in my group.
One of the interesting things that comes to light as post of this type of discussion is the stress and problems caused by "Mainstreaming" of MMOs. Games seem to be designed for the mostly solo play crowd so there is very little incentive to learn to be sociable, learn to work well as part of a team or build a solid Guild.
As 44lvl Paladin I have had a TON of fun instant que'ing into dungeons, puzzling through new Bosses and almost never had problems with DPS or Healers because of one simple little trick.... My Free Company... join one / make one or you will always bet at the mercy of the names, faceless, solo play crowd...
By avoiding the most fundamental element of MMOS you are doing yourself a disservice.
Its ironic in this game where any player can really be any class at anytime, this sentiment seems to be more common place. Im not new to MMO's. Ive played anything from EQ2 to SWG. In a lot of the groups that Ive been in as an archer, the two DPS classes (including myself) get treated like second rate citizens by either the tank or the healer. Dont get me wrong, Im not offended by it, it just needed to be said. In fact I think its funny considering half the healers in this game are clueless and more than half of the tanks cant hold aggro if their moms life depended on it. Yes, maybe your job is like slightly more difficult than mine, have a cookie all to yourself and calm down. Its not as if the game is overly hard for any class.
I know there are more DPS classes too, so that the services you provide are oh so exclusive. That means you get to get in groups easier than I do, but it doesnt really afford you the right to act like an obnoxious chode about it either.
So if you play a tank or healer, and find yourself wanting to bag out the DPS because their jobs just arent as important as yours, leave the group, go do some furious masturbating and then return a calmer individual. DPS makes up exactly half the group for a reason, so you get that precious xp life blood more faster. [mod edit]
A lot of this is entirely due to the fact that, for better or worse, this game isn't WoW. DPS can't mindlessly spam AoE during multi-mob pulls or attack whatever mob they feel like. Likewise, healers who immediately toss out a heal during the pull are almost sure to grab aggro right off the bat. In this game, tanks need a bit of time to build hate before DPS can go nuts and even then, DPS needs to watch their aggro because again, it's very easy to grab aggro off of the tank. In that sense, it's a lot more like EverQuest than WoW.
Comments
Really? They must have hideous queues.
Again ask yourself, why do you think 90% of the players choose to play DPS?
Because most people like to see big numbers and feel like they are the one responsible for the killing blow? Because they think it's less stressful and only want to worry about themselves?
Irregardless, without DPS a tank and healer would have such a painfully long fight or wipe from being overwhelmed.
As to queues I believe DPS have on average 30+ minute queues, healers 5-10 minutes, and Tanks instant to 5 minutes tops. I think I've only had to wait 5 minutes once in queue.
Be careful about your AoEs though. Archers have root and Thaumaturgists got sleep; make sure you dont damage those CCed enemies or the CC will end.
I highlighted the relevant part.
Yes, DPS are of course needed in the group and good DPS can make the fight easier for the tank and faster done.
Nevertheless, it's the "easy job", but it gets equal reward. That's why.
WoW actually implemented a system where tanks and healers got extra rewards. That helped to shorten the DPS queues a bit.
Keep calling your tanks and healers elitist and blaming them for wipes and your queues will grow only longer, while tanks and healers will start enjoying insta-pop every time.
Or you could play a tank or healer, since your'e so awesome. You know, show them how it's done.
Basicly studio's need to make dungeons so fricking hard that if you do not focus dps on the marked target you WIPE.
The Tanks and Healers are right on "most" occasions where stupid dps just nuke left and right without following the marked targets.
Tanks and Healers get tired realy quickly of this noob behavior as everyone just needs to do their damn job.
Now i am not saying you dont have to take anything from a tank or healer specialy when they start of high and mighty instead of explaining they want a clean and fun run.
So there are 2 sides of the coin.
Sad thing is the whole social aspect of playing mmo's are almost gone.
Its very rare you meet new people you make friends with and play more often together.
Most just join and want it done within 10 minutes without saying a word.
And if it doesnt go fast enough they /leave
oh look, another qq oh look post!
@topic: playing dd for ages now (also healed before), and seriously, beeing dd is alot more action. i need to check my position every sec, my agro, my dmg, and all those must be completely correct, or the healer standing 200 meter behind me doing his "hard job" will instantly notice and start crying (since he hasn't got alot to do anyway, they usaualy notice).
whoever thinks heal or tank are more important. is fighting bosses with not enough health ^^
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
Trion did with Rift.
The original T2s, especially in the gear available at the time (ie, in the first month or two, before gear inflation set in), required everyone to be on their game. If the DPS weren't up to snuff it didn't matter how good the healer and tank were, you weren't getting past many of the bosses. Standing in fire (or lightning beams, as the case may be) was often insta-kill, there was no "Meh, I'll just stand in these fifty foot flames knowing the healer will save me because if she doesn't I'll bitch so loud it'll burst her eardrums. Mechanics couldn't just be ignored or healed/tanked through. You even needed a secondary healer for many bosses because there were unavoidable mechanics that could and did take the primary out of play for periods of time.
I honestly think that had Trion been willing to "settle" for Rift being a niche game, rather than following their delusions of WoW-level granduer, and stuck with that level of difficulty, the game would be doing tons better than it is. But they didn't. On the forums the screams of "elitism" by the huddled masses who, by and large, couldn't get past the first trash pull were epic. The fact was that the majority of the playerbase was never going to be able to play at the level required for T2s and if there's one thing you can't have in a game today it's content that can't be facerolled by anyone and everyone. So they were all nerfed. And they didn't just hit them with a nerf bat, they used a whole damn nerf planet. Then they hit them again. And again.
Sadly I suspect that's the inevitable fate of any content where the DPSers can't be carried relatively easily.
If you attack the marked mobs in order and follow the strategy, there will be no issues.
if after being told a couple times, you keep spamming AOE´s, awakening marked, binded monsters and then ask me why i am not doing my job, then yes, the "elitist" tank will show up.
One thing is people committing mistakes, of which we are all guilty, and another thing is just mindlessly smashing stuff hoping it goes away, and getting pissy when it does not.
I think the attitude is a global issue and not just tank/healer´s.
Try to look at it from their point of view.
It could be that the healers and tanks you've come across are snippy because of previous experiences. If so, try tanking and/or healing and see how that goes. You might find yourself sliding into the same attitudes as the ones you've come across.
It doesn't excuse bad behaviour, it only makes it clear why some are behaving the way they do.
One of the first topics to pop up on the official forums and on Reddit was one complaining about tanks. Then came healers. It might also be that people followed these topics and have been on alert since.
Real elitists are just that, elitists. Nothing can be done about that except not grouping up with people like that. Save yourself the headache. It's just a game. There are more important things to worry about.
i read some where they are going to add an option to maych you with people from your own server via the duty finder. That'll help some with the asshat/anonymity issues.
BUT also remember in most cases you get out of a group what you put in to it.
Hahahaha, and I'm a tank and I'm better then you.
Actually, unfortunately, you get some bad players and good players. It's the way of the world. Nothing will change. Don't let it get to you. In the end, just ignore the bad and enjoy the good and have fun.
I pretty much only play tanks, I can tell you that I haven't ran into this situation in ff14 so far. I have tanked several dungeons and the groups have been very cool. Perhaps I've just been lucky..
Speaking as a tank though, I fully understand how important the role of dps is. I usually end up thanking the dps players and commenting on being amazed at the amount of damage they put out. If the dps suck, the group will fail, just like any other role.
Erm so OP
You haven't hit the dps race dungeons then where a group will wipe over and over again if the DPS don't know wtf to do or how to play.
2nd rate citizen healer and tanks my foot. 2nd rate dps stops a dungeon group in its tracks to quit ville.
DPS who face mash the keyboard are welcome in other games.
Ah yes, theres no asshats in GW2. Please, I ve found more in that game then any game I ve played, and yes that includes WoW.
So in order to make tanks and healers less important you plan to put more people who have a hard time following simple instructions in the mix? Queue circus music. Oh and btw, level 50 content is 8 man. Stop complaining about a system in a game that is not broken, and how about getting to end game before saying what 'needs to be fixed'. 4 man does what it is suppose to do, it introduces the concepts of group fighting, working together, and communicating. All of this is meant to make the majority of peoples life a lot better during end game. Oh and one more thing, tanks and healers are what matter, idc if you put 10 DPS in a group, you won't be killing that boss without a tank or a healer. I can tank all day with heals. How does those boss hits feel on you? Stop complaining about what everyone else does, and just know your role. If you learn your role, and someone else's, then you can tell them what they are doing wrong.
Um... cause they are lol. Go ahead and do dungeons/raids without one.
The real problem is idiot DPS who cant assist and give absolutely no consideration to the rest of the party and the dynamics involved.
Playing both a tank and a healer I am at the point of just letting the DPS die when they act stupid and selfish. Having to heal you instead of the tank because you need to see big pew pew numbers... sorry dude try that with some other idiots, not in my group.
One of the interesting things that comes to light as post of this type of discussion is the stress and problems caused by "Mainstreaming" of MMOs. Games seem to be designed for the mostly solo play crowd so there is very little incentive to learn to be sociable, learn to work well as part of a team or build a solid Guild.
As 44lvl Paladin I have had a TON of fun instant que'ing into dungeons, puzzling through new Bosses and almost never had problems with DPS or Healers because of one simple little trick.... My Free Company... join one / make one or you will always bet at the mercy of the names, faceless, solo play crowd...
By avoiding the most fundamental element of MMOS you are doing yourself a disservice.
A lot of this is entirely due to the fact that, for better or worse, this game isn't WoW. DPS can't mindlessly spam AoE during multi-mob pulls or attack whatever mob they feel like. Likewise, healers who immediately toss out a heal during the pull are almost sure to grab aggro right off the bat. In this game, tanks need a bit of time to build hate before DPS can go nuts and even then, DPS needs to watch their aggro because again, it's very easy to grab aggro off of the tank. In that sense, it's a lot more like EverQuest than WoW.