*Sigh* environment can also mean who you had for parents, friends, bullies, ...and whether they were abusive...ect. My Dad grew up in the Bronx NY and he didn't kill anyone either. If Tookie had you for a parent maybe he would have grown up without so many issues, you seem to be an honest worker. Infact Tookie was viable in that he did help people from jail. He was nominated for the Nobel Peace prize for his work. He actually helped people and if he helped just ONE person from throwing there life away (maybe commiting murders themselves) I think he did a fine job.
He actually helped people???? No he didn't, he killed people! How can you say he did a fine job?
And you say if he helped just ONE person from throwing their life away he did a fine job???? He killed 4. He threw away 4 innocent peoples lives. Does that mean nothing to you? I don't care what he did after that and I'm sure the families and friends of the people he killed don't either.
Do you actually have any realization of what he did? He killed people who have families. They have mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, and friends who love them and are missing something inside now. He took a person who was alive and stopped their whole future from happening. Their good times, bad times, their successes and failures. Their life experiences. And he also took away the good things that those 4 people could have done with THEIR lives but were never given the chance.
This scumbag is not just responsible for the lives he took and families he put through hell but for the hundreds if not thousands of lives his "soldiers" took as well.
Not one time did he express remorse for any killings.
Here is a some crimes he commited while in prison:
In response to Stanley 'Tookie' Williams' petition for clemency, the Los Angeles District Attorney's office outlined in its response the following prison discipline record of the notorious founder of the Crips gang.
After being convicted of the four murders and sentenced to death in 1981, Stanley Williams was sent to San Quentin State Prison. Upon arriving at San Quentin, Williams quickly demonstrated violent behavior consistent with a hardened murderer. Although this is not an exhaustive list of Williams' violent acts while in prison, it is illustrative of his behavior at San Quentin:
* On June 30, 1981, just two months after being sentenced, Williams was involved in a violent fight with another inmate. Williams was observed kneeling over the other inmate and striking him in the head with his closed fists. When Williams was ordered to cease fighting, he ignored the order. Only after repeated orders to stop, did Williams stop his violence. (P. Exh. 6).
* On January 26, 1982, Williams was ordered to lineup for his return to his cell. Williams refused the order and became hostile. The guard then explained the line-up procedure to Williams. Williams responded by saying "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do one of these days I'll trick you boy." (P. Exh. 7).
* On January 28, 1982, Williams had two separate instances where he threw chemical substances at guards. In one of these instances, Williams threw a chemical substance in the eyes and on the face of a guard. As a result of that assault, the guard suffered from chemical burns to these areas and had to be taken to the hospital where he received emergency care. (P. Exh. 8).
* On January 29, 1982, Williams again attacked a guard by throwing a chemical substance on him. (P. Exh. 9).
* On February 16, 1984, a guard saw Williams bending over another inmate and striking him with his closed fists. In an effort to stop the attack, the guard blew his whistle and drew his weapon. Williams, however, continued to fight. Only after a guard fired a warning shot, did Williams stop fighting. (P. Exh. 10).
* On June 8, 1984, Williams was observed participating in inappropriate behavior with a female visitor. When the guard advised the female of the prison policies, Williams became verbally hostile and stated, "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." (P. Exh. 11).
* On July 4, 1986, Williams stepped between a guard and another inmate and began to beat up the inmate. The guard ordered Williams to stop but Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, after gun officers responded, Williams stopped the attack. (P. Exh. 12).
* On October 10, 1988, Williams was involved in a fight that led to him being stabbed. Prison officials subsequently learned that this stabbing was done in retaliation for a September 22, 1988, stabbing of another inmate ordered by Crips leader Stanley Williams. (P. Exh. 13).
* On October 19, 1988, Williams was placed in Administrative Segregation based on his association with the Crips street gang. (P. Exh. 13).
* On December 24, 1991, Williams was involved in another fight with an inmate. Once again, despite being ordered to stop, Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, gun officers responded by firing a round near Williams. After the shot was fired, guards gained control over Williams. (P. Exh. 14).
* On July 6, 1993, a large fight broke out in the shower area. Williams was one of the combatants. A guard ordered the inmates to stop, but the fight continued. After a warning shot was fired, the fighting stopped. Subsequently, a stabbing instrument ("shank") made of sharpened plastic was recovered from where the fight had occurred. (P. Exh. 15).
So he wrote some childrens books big deal.Trust me on this this guy could care less about you me our families and anyone else for that matter.Society is better off with scum like this gone.
I find it amazing that people are STILL trying to say he did something worthwhile.The above incidents are indicative of a person with no remorse.This is a person who started the most notorious street gang in America and was a VIOLENT criminal.
John Wayne Gacy painted clowns maybe a mistake was made there too?Ted Bundy was known to be very charming and handsome so perhaps we should have reconsidered?
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Death penalty am I for or against? hell yes, if it acts as a deterrent and the evidence is way beyond the shadow of a doubt, fry em. Let that be a lesson to those who think that there's no other way.
Did they not have the death penalty before this guy ?
Coz Im assuming if they did it would have detered him.....
Worst argument on behalf of capital punishment you could possibly put up and its the one pro deathers always use....
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Originally posted by jdun1 The death penalty is never about deterrent. It is about justice and punishment.
No its not a deterant and that is the one argument I will always be happy to take up.
It is certainly about punishment and punishment is fine. If your arguing for the death penalty on the basis of its use as a punishment you will have my full support. I think there are certainly crimes that challenge everyones values in relation to capital punishement.
As for justice, thats for the religious folks to debate based on their particular take on the sanctity of life. But think about this.
If you believe life is so sacred that you should lose yours for taking someone elses. Then why does that sanctity of life not extend to the perpetrator. You cant have it both ways.
Besides, life in prison is a FAR worse fate that death by lethal injection. I mean think about it, life in solitary for example would almost be too cruel to contemplate, you could cart his vegetable like shell off to a mental home after probably 5 years. Now THAT is a punishment, death is almost an escape by comparison.
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Yeah, he was writing children's book. Big deal? He was obviously having a case of "I feel real bad about what I did, now that I've been caught of course." I don't know if it's been mentioned but Tooki CREATED the crips.
"It should be noted though that Williams refuses to aid police investigations with any information against his gang. He has also been involved in attacks on guards and other inmates as well as multiple escape plots. "
"Williams was convicted of the murders of all four individuals and sentenced to death. In addition, associates in prison recall him claiming to have murdered police. He is also believed to have ordered killings inside the prison."
"Court transcripts show that after the verdict was read, Williams mouthed the following words to the jurors: "I'm going to get each and every one of you motherf****rs" The foreperson confirmed to the court the words mouthed by Williams, and later said that the threats played no factor in the juror's deliberations during the penalty phase."
He was being a bold faced liar. Telling everyone he's innocent. I'm a changed man. At the exact same time he's doing the same idiotic things that got him in his position.
Edit: Ok, should have read the entire thread before going off in a tangent but I'm sick of people supporting this idiot. It's all over the net right now, all these rappers and musicians supporting Tookie and it's grinding on my nerves. Anyways, it's all been said before.
Yup ..... dont get me wrong Im not defending the guy in any way... just playing devils advocate as usual to get a good debate.
I just cant help thinking that people tend to over look what they really want in a rush to get what they think they want. I can see how the death penalty brings a weird sort of closure for the vitims family.
Maybe its because Im actually far more vindictive and poisonus than the average person, that I would like to wake up each morning knowing this guy was in a 6 x 4 concrete box with no window a matress and a bible for the rest of his days. Especially if I was a family member I would pay to make sure he got the best medical attention to keep him alive as long as possible. He wouldnt get out of it as easy as being put to sleep like a puppy on my watch
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Such vindication Razor...And I see where you're coming from.
But if you want vindication and efficiency. Try putting them to backbreaking slave labor for 20 years, either until their dead, or you just execute them at the end of the term.
In fact, the 13th ammendment had this little loophole, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Justice, and paying a debt to society. It's beautifully efficient.
Of course the first thing to even getting their would be to quit treating prisoners like their some kind of mis-treated citizen that deserves rights and privelages.
I believe someone made an estimate that it had a cost of about $30,000 a year per prisoner in one state.
That's hardly paying a debt to society; I'd say it's adding to it!
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
In California the estimate was nearly $100,000/year per prisoner. Considering the facilities, food, medical, guards, and whatnot. I agree, it's hardly repaying a debt to society. I also couldn't agree MORE when you say that society needs to stop looking at criminals in jail as if they are some ill-treated, downtrodden sods. They're criminals, that is the punishment. Sure, I understand that someone who committed car theft shouldn't be held to QUITE the same prison standards as Chuck Manson...but they are all still criminals.
What pissed me off more than anything was the Crips rallycry to each shoot one police officer if Tookie was put to death ( which of course he was...haven't heard anything about shootings yet but at this point I bet the cops are half daring them to try ). If the monster known as Tookie REALLY wanted to redeem himself and show that he was sincere in the efforts he had been making to turn people away from that life he should have stood up as a man in the end, accepted his punishment and said "This is what comes of the life I lived. I accept and acknowledge as well as deserve this. Fellow gang members out there let my death open your eyes as to the wrongs of the lifestyle."
He would have at least earned a little more respect in my eyes before he went...
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Yes cost is the fatal flaw in my evil plan of punishment that lasts for 50 years or more...
I just cant help thinking of examples like a recent one we had here though. A guy was accused of having his wife bashed and put in the boot of a car and left in the sun for 4 days. She was found alive but never recovered from her coma and died in hospital weeks later.
He was charged with murder once she died and because he had not been arrested yet he killed himself.
Death is an escape from consequences and the torment of having to spend everyday thinking about what you did, thats why he took the easy way out.
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Originally posted by Razorback Yes cost is the fatal flaw in my evil plan of punishment that lasts for 50 years or more... I just cant help thinking of examples like a recent one we had here though. A guy was accused of having his wife bashed and put in the boot of a car and left in the sun for 4 days. She was found alive but never recovered from her coma and died in hospital weeks later. He was charged with murder once she died and because he had not been arrested yet he killed himself. Death is an escape from consequences and the torment of having to spend everyday thinking about what you did, thats why he took the easy way out.
but then again on the same note there are those without conscience who will sit there thinking
"i win because i am still alive"
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you''re one of the 2% who hasn''t, copy & paste this in your signature.
punishment in the US is not severe enough. too many people live better lives in prison then they do in the real world so there is no reason they should try and better themselves. to me thats wrong. they dont serve sentences any more they live better lives. there is a problem with that.. until you make prison a worse place to be they will keep commiting crimes. they get out and a high percentage go right back in because they realise it was way better on the inside. death penalty should be just that.. death no sitting in a cell for years appealing over and over wasting tax payers dollars living on 3 meals a day watching cable tv.. reading law books getting a degree and finding loopholes in the system. our prison system sucks plain and simple. there should be no time off for good behavior.. serve the time.. serve it hard.. and see how many people want to go back to prison.
Originally posted by Tanjin punishment in the US is not severe enough. too many people live better lives in prison then they do in the real world so there is no reason they should try and better themselves. to me thats wrong. they dont serve sentences any more they live better lives. there is a problem with that.. until you make prison a worse place to be they will keep commiting crimes. they get out and a high percentage go right back in because they realise it was way better on the inside. death penalty should be just that.. death no sitting in a cell for years appealing over and over wasting tax payers dollars living on 3 meals a day watching cable tv.. reading law books getting a degree and finding loopholes in the system. our prison system sucks plain and simple. there should be no time off for good behavior.. serve the time.. serve it hard.. and see how many people want to go back to prison.
Spoken in the true style of someone who has never been to jail.
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Jail is not a pleasant place. It's true most of the prisons in the US are a little more civilized that certain countries, but they're far from heaven. They do put most of the inmates to work, and most of the inmate prefer to do that work since anything that gets them out of the cell doing something besides sitting around.
The whole death setting an example thing doesn't seem to work, you need to do it on a large scale...a Roman scale! That's right, crucify criminals along a major highway, spacing them out so that you can drive from New York City to Atlanta and see a crucified criminal at exact intervals. The Romans were really good at that stuff. Note that I'm not advocating this (maybe....), just saying that using death as an example of fear needs to be on a much more dramatic scale, most criminals do not believe they'll get death.
Originally posted by Sawtooth Jail is not a pleasant place. It's true most of the prisons in the US are a little more civilized that certain countries, but they're far from heaven. They do put most of the inmates to work, and most of the inmate prefer to do that work since anything that gets them out of the cell doing something besides sitting around.
The whole death setting an example thing doesn't seem to work, you need to do it on a large scale...a Roman scale! That's right, crucify criminals along a major highway, spacing them out so that you can drive from New York City to Atlanta and see a crucified criminal at exact intervals. The Romans were really good at that stuff. Note that I'm not advocating this (maybe....), just saying that using death as an example of fear needs to be on a much more dramatic scale, most criminals do not believe they'll get death.
All hail the Coloseums! I have long since proposed dropped all the gang members into the LA Coloseum, providing them with 10x the ammo they need and 1/3 the food required. Then allowed ESPN to televise it as a PPV event.
In truth though, I am all for public executions. While I enjoy the American Legal System for it's front in ( slow as it is sometimes "Innocent until proven guilty" is a good thing ) I think we need to adopt the middle eastern punishment systems. Let the family of the wronged decide what happens.
Having grown up in Southern California I was so damned used to seeing high speed pursuits that I have long since wanted to just ONE TIME see them grab the criminal. Cuff 'em. Put them on their knees and beging to read their Miranda Rights then BLAM a bullet through the head. Right there on live, covered by every damned sensationalising media scumbucket out there. I am quite certain there'd be a drop in fleeing would-be criminals :P
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He didn't deserve clemency. He poisoned 2 guards while in prison and he killed a family of 3. He was also the center of many violent actions in that prison. It wasn't until he understood that he was going to be killed that he turned upon a new leaf. I believe in redemption, but he did not show remorse for one of those murders and the first step in redemption is to admit your mistakes. Since he never did, I am not one bit sorry for him.
"Whoever controls the media controls the mind..-'Jim Morrison"
"When decorum is repression, the only dignity free men have is to speak out." ~Abbie Hoffman
you know what your right i havent been to prison and you know what? im not planning on going. you think a person should be proud to go to prison? i have worked around inmates before.. so dont get all uppity on me like i dont know anything. they shouldnt get the luxuries they do.. and most go out and do the work not so much to get out as to shorten their time for good behavior. they get reduced sentences for doing labor.. im not saying i dont agree with this.. but its also an easy out. i feel once you have a sentence you should have to ride it out. death means death.. life sentence means life sentence. the work you do outside a prison should be work that pays whoever you offended be it the family you murdered.. or a person you raped etc... work = payment for your crime.. not shortened time.
This guy was a monster and deserved more than what he got, i do not oppose of the death penalty, i oppose of the amendmant or Right(forgot which one) that states that there be no cruel and unusual punishment. I think that the punishment should fit the crime. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, He should have been murdered in the worst possible way. This guy should have been burned, part by part until he was dead. He should have had to pay for the murders he was found guilty of, for the families that he destroyed, and for the possibly hundreds of lives that he might have taken or had ordered people to take. People like this should not waste the air on earth. as for life being worse than death, to hold prisoners takes money, which a few people have already stated in this thread. to contain someone in a 6-by-4 cubicle untill he died would be good punishment, and I, would be satisfied with his punishment. as for his victims families and friends, they will never think that he got a sufficient punishment.
The world is better off with out him. Scum like that don't deserve the joys of life, and dont deserve to have their lives ended quickly and without immense pain.
The world is better off with out him. Scum like that don't deserve the joys of life, and dont deserve to have their lives ended quickly and without immense pain.
--------
How is the world better off without him? Looking around in my life, i haven't seen any impact in my quality of life due to him being alive - and now that he's dead - well my life is still the same.
Perhaps you meant to say "your" world is better off without him. And if so, how did he affect your life and what additional freedoms do you now have, now that he's dead?
Originally posted by jdun1 Originally posted by Tanjin you know what your right i havent been to prison and you know what? im not planning on going. you think a person should be proud to go to prison? i have worked around inmates before.. so dont get all uppity on me like i dont know anything. they shouldnt get the luxuries they do.. and most go out and do the work not so much to get out as to shorten their time for good behavior. they get reduced sentences for doing labor.. im not saying i dont agree with this.. but its also an easy out. i feel once you have a sentence you should have to ride it out. death means death.. life sentence means life sentence. the work you do outside a prison should be work that pays whoever you offended be it the family you murdered.. or a person you raped etc... work = payment for your crime.. not shortened time.
The highest payment for justice is death. Monetary is only one form of payment and to most people it is the lease expensive to pay it off. When a criminal killed someone in cold blood like what Tookie did, the victims family and society does not want monetary payment, which they consider an insult. They do not want life in prison, which they consider not enough for those deaths. What they and society wanted was his death as payment for justice and in the end they were satisfy with it.
I think everyone agrees that that those lives that Tookie took is worth more then whatever money he can pay back. Dont insult the victims and the victims family.
dont be a moron.. look at my more previous post I didnt insult the families at all . pay attention dont take my words out of text and assume crap. pull your head out of your dark hole.. take a deep breath and stick it back in.
Comments
He actually helped people???? No he didn't, he killed people! How can you say he did a fine job?
And you say if he helped just ONE person from throwing their life away he did a fine job???? He killed 4. He threw away 4 innocent peoples lives. Does that mean nothing to you? I don't care what he did after that and I'm sure the families and friends of the people he killed don't either.
Do you actually have any realization of what he did? He killed people who have families. They have mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, and friends who love them and are missing something inside now. He took a person who was alive and stopped their whole future from happening. Their good times, bad times, their successes and failures. Their life experiences. And he also took away the good things that those 4 people could have done with THEIR lives but were never given the chance.
This scumbag is not just responsible for the lives he took and families he put through hell but for the hundreds if not thousands of lives his "soldiers" took as well.
Not one time did he express remorse for any killings.
Here is a some crimes he commited while in prison:
In response to Stanley 'Tookie' Williams' petition for clemency, the Los Angeles District Attorney's office outlined in its response the following prison discipline record of the notorious founder of the Crips gang.
After being convicted of the four murders and sentenced to death in 1981, Stanley Williams was sent to San Quentin State Prison. Upon arriving at San Quentin, Williams quickly demonstrated violent behavior consistent with a hardened murderer. Although this is not an exhaustive list of Williams' violent acts while in prison, it is illustrative of his behavior at San Quentin:
* On June 30, 1981, just two months after being sentenced, Williams was involved in a violent fight with another inmate. Williams was observed kneeling over the other inmate and striking him in the head with his closed fists. When Williams was ordered to cease fighting, he ignored the order. Only after repeated orders to stop, did Williams stop his violence. (P. Exh. 6).
* On January 26, 1982, Williams was ordered to lineup for his return to his cell. Williams refused the order and became hostile. The guard then explained the line-up procedure to Williams. Williams responded by saying "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do one of these days I'll trick you boy." (P. Exh. 7).
* On January 28, 1982, Williams had two separate instances where he threw chemical substances at guards. In one of these instances, Williams threw a chemical substance in the eyes and on the face of a guard. As a result of that assault, the guard suffered from chemical burns to these areas and had to be taken to the hospital where he received emergency care. (P. Exh. 8).
* On January 29, 1982, Williams again attacked a guard by throwing a chemical substance on him. (P. Exh. 9).
* On February 16, 1984, a guard saw Williams bending over another inmate and striking him with his closed fists. In an effort to stop the attack, the guard blew his whistle and drew his weapon. Williams, however, continued to fight. Only after a guard fired a warning shot, did Williams stop fighting. (P. Exh. 10).
* On June 8, 1984, Williams was observed participating in inappropriate behavior with a female visitor. When the guard advised the female of the prison policies, Williams became verbally hostile and stated, "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." (P. Exh. 11).
* On July 4, 1986, Williams stepped between a guard and another inmate and began to beat up the inmate. The guard ordered Williams to stop but Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, after gun officers responded, Williams stopped the attack. (P. Exh. 12).
* On October 10, 1988, Williams was involved in a fight that led to him being stabbed. Prison officials subsequently learned that this stabbing was done in retaliation for a September 22, 1988, stabbing of another inmate ordered by Crips leader Stanley Williams. (P. Exh. 13).
* On October 19, 1988, Williams was placed in Administrative Segregation based on his association with the Crips street gang. (P. Exh. 13).
* On December 24, 1991, Williams was involved in another fight with an inmate. Once again, despite being ordered to stop, Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, gun officers responded by firing a round near Williams. After the shot was fired, guards gained control over Williams. (P. Exh. 14).
* On July 6, 1993, a large fight broke out in the shower area. Williams was one of the combatants. A guard ordered the inmates to stop, but the fight continued. After a warning shot was fired, the fighting stopped. Subsequently, a stabbing instrument ("shank") made of sharpened plastic was recovered from where the fight had occurred. (P. Exh. 15).
So he wrote some childrens books big deal.Trust me on this this guy could care less about you me our families and anyone else for that matter.Society is better off with scum like this gone.
I find it amazing that people are STILL trying to say he did something worthwhile.The above incidents are indicative of a person with no remorse.This is a person who started the most notorious street gang in America and was a VIOLENT criminal.
John Wayne Gacy painted clowns maybe a mistake was made there too?Ted Bundy was known to be very charming and handsome so perhaps we should have reconsidered?
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
We've had capital punishment before this guy, and it didn't deter him.
Current Games:
It..Burns..
No its not a deterant and that is the one argument I will always be happy to take up.
It is certainly about punishment and punishment is fine. If your arguing for the death penalty on the basis of its use as a punishment you will have my full support. I think there are certainly crimes that challenge everyones values in relation to capital punishement.
As for justice, thats for the religious folks to debate based on their particular take on the sanctity of life. But think about this.
If you believe life is so sacred that you should lose yours for taking someone elses. Then why does that sanctity of life not extend to the perpetrator. You cant have it both ways.
Besides, life in prison is a FAR worse fate that death by lethal injection. I mean think about it, life in solitary for example would almost be too cruel to contemplate, you could cart his vegetable like shell off to a mental home after probably 5 years. Now THAT is a punishment, death is almost an escape by comparison.
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Yeah, he was writing children's book. Big deal? He was obviously having a case of "I feel real bad about what I did, now that I've been caught of course." I don't know if it's been mentioned but Tooki CREATED the crips.
"It should be noted though that Williams refuses to aid police investigations with any information against his gang. He has also been involved in attacks on guards and other inmates as well as multiple escape plots. "
"Williams was convicted of the murders of all four individuals and sentenced to death. In addition, associates in prison recall him claiming to have murdered police. He is also believed to have ordered killings inside the prison."
"Court transcripts show that after the verdict was read, Williams mouthed the following words to the jurors: "I'm going to get each and every one of you motherf****rs" The foreperson confirmed to the court the words mouthed by Williams, and later said that the threats played no factor in the juror's deliberations during the penalty phase."
Wikipedia
He was being a bold faced liar. Telling everyone he's innocent. I'm a changed man. At the exact same time he's doing the same idiotic things that got him in his position.
Edit: Ok, should have read the entire thread before going off in a tangent but I'm sick of people supporting this idiot. It's all over the net right now, all these rappers and musicians supporting Tookie and it's grinding on my nerves. Anyways, it's all been said before.
Yup ..... dont get me wrong Im not defending the guy in any way... just playing devils advocate as usual to get a good debate.
I just cant help thinking that people tend to over look what they really want in a rush to get what they think they want. I can see how the death penalty brings a weird sort of closure for the vitims family.
Maybe its because Im actually far more vindictive and poisonus than the average person, that I would like to wake up each morning knowing this guy was in a 6 x 4 concrete box with no window a matress and a bible for the rest of his days. Especially if I was a family member I would pay to make sure he got the best medical attention to keep him alive as long as possible. He wouldnt get out of it as easy as being put to sleep like a puppy on my watch
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Such vindication Razor...And I see where you're coming from.
But if you want vindication and efficiency. Try putting them to backbreaking slave labor for 20 years, either until their dead, or you just execute them at the end of the term.
In fact, the 13th ammendment had this little loophole, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Justice, and paying a debt to society. It's beautifully efficient.
Of course the first thing to even getting their would be to quit treating prisoners like their some kind of mis-treated citizen that deserves rights and privelages.
I believe someone made an estimate that it had a cost of about $30,000 a year per prisoner in one state.
That's hardly paying a debt to society; I'd say it's adding to it!
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
In California the estimate was nearly $100,000/year per prisoner. Considering the facilities, food, medical, guards, and whatnot. I agree, it's hardly repaying a debt to society. I also couldn't agree MORE when you say that society needs to stop looking at criminals in jail as if they are some ill-treated, downtrodden sods. They're criminals, that is the punishment. Sure, I understand that someone who committed car theft shouldn't be held to QUITE the same prison standards as Chuck Manson...but they are all still criminals.
What pissed me off more than anything was the Crips rallycry to each shoot one police officer if Tookie was put to death ( which of course he was...haven't heard anything about shootings yet but at this point I bet the cops are half daring them to try ). If the monster known as Tookie REALLY wanted to redeem himself and show that he was sincere in the efforts he had been making to turn people away from that life he should have stood up as a man in the end, accepted his punishment and said "This is what comes of the life I lived. I accept and acknowledge as well as deserve this. Fellow gang members out there let my death open your eyes as to the wrongs of the lifestyle."
He would have at least earned a little more respect in my eyes before he went...
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
Yes cost is the fatal flaw in my evil plan of punishment that lasts for 50 years or more...
I just cant help thinking of examples like a recent one we had here though. A guy was accused of having his wife bashed and put in the boot of a car and left in the sun for 4 days. She was found alive but never recovered from her coma and died in hospital weeks later.
He was charged with murder once she died and because he had not been arrested yet he killed himself.
Death is an escape from consequences and the torment of having to spend everyday thinking about what you did, thats why he took the easy way out.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
but then again on the same note there are those without conscience who will sit there thinking
"i win because i am still alive"
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you''re one of the 2% who hasn''t, copy & paste this in your signature.
punishment in the US is not severe enough. too many people live better lives in prison then they do in the real world so there is no reason they should try and better themselves. to me thats wrong. they dont serve sentences any more they live better lives. there is a problem with that.. until you make prison a worse place to be they will keep commiting crimes. they get out and a high percentage go right back in because they realise it was way better on the inside. death penalty should be just that.. death no sitting in a cell for years appealing over and over wasting tax payers dollars living on 3 meals a day watching cable tv.. reading law books getting a degree and finding loopholes in the system. our prison system sucks plain and simple. there should be no time off for good behavior.. serve the time.. serve it hard.. and see how many people want to go back to prison.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
The whole death setting an example thing doesn't seem to work, you need to do it on a large scale...a Roman scale! That's right, crucify criminals along a major highway, spacing them out so that you can drive from New York City to Atlanta and see a crucified criminal at exact intervals. The Romans were really good at that stuff. Note that I'm not advocating this (maybe....), just saying that using death as an example of fear needs to be on a much more dramatic scale, most criminals do not believe they'll get death.
All hail the Coloseums! I have long since proposed dropped all the gang members into the LA Coloseum, providing them with 10x the ammo they need and 1/3 the food required. Then allowed ESPN to televise it as a PPV event.
In truth though, I am all for public executions. While I enjoy the American Legal System for it's front in ( slow as it is sometimes "Innocent until proven guilty" is a good thing ) I think we need to adopt the middle eastern punishment systems. Let the family of the wronged decide what happens.
Having grown up in Southern California I was so damned used to seeing high speed pursuits that I have long since wanted to just ONE TIME see them grab the criminal. Cuff 'em. Put them on their knees and beging to read their Miranda Rights then BLAM a bullet through the head. Right there on live, covered by every damned sensationalising media scumbucket out there. I am quite certain there'd be a drop in fleeing would-be criminals :P
"What is it I have against Microsoft, you ask? Well, you know how you feel when you wait for an MMO to come out and when it does you feel like you've paid to play it's beta test for another 6-9 months before anything even thinks of working the way it should? Being a network engineer you feel that way about anything Microsoft puts out."
He didn't deserve clemency. He poisoned 2 guards while in prison and he killed a family of 3. He was also the center of many violent actions in that prison. It wasn't until he understood that he was going to be killed that he turned upon a new leaf. I believe in redemption, but he did not show remorse for one of those murders and the first step in redemption is to admit your mistakes. Since he never did, I am not one bit sorry for him.
"Whoever controls the media controls the mind..-'Jim Morrison"
"When decorum is repression, the only dignity free men have is to speak out." ~Abbie Hoffman
you know what your right i havent been to prison and you know what? im not planning on going. you think a person should be proud to go to prison? i have worked around inmates before.. so dont get all uppity on me like i dont know anything. they shouldnt get the luxuries they do.. and most go out and do the work not so much to get out as to shorten their time for good behavior. they get reduced sentences for doing labor.. im not saying i dont agree with this.. but its also an easy out. i feel once you have a sentence you should have to ride it out. death means death.. life sentence means life sentence. the work you do outside a prison should be work that pays whoever you offended be it the family you murdered.. or a person you raped etc... work = payment for your crime.. not shortened time.
This guy was a monster and deserved more than what he got, i do not oppose of the death penalty, i oppose of the amendmant or Right(forgot which one) that states that there be no cruel and unusual punishment. I think that the punishment should fit the crime. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, He should have been murdered in the worst possible way. This guy should have been burned, part by part until he was dead. He should have had to pay for the murders he was found guilty of, for the families that he destroyed, and for the possibly hundreds of lives that he might have taken or had ordered people to take. People like this should not waste the air on earth. as for life being worse than death, to hold prisoners takes money, which a few people have already stated in this thread. to contain someone in a 6-by-4 cubicle untill he died would be good punishment, and I, would be satisfied with his punishment. as for his victims families and friends, they will never think that he got a sufficient punishment.
The world is better off with out him. Scum like that don't deserve the joys of life, and dont deserve to have their lives ended quickly and without immense pain.
That is just my 2 cents
Originally posted by Xexima
The world is better off with out him. Scum like that don't deserve the joys of life, and dont deserve to have their lives ended quickly and without immense pain.
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How is the world better off without him? Looking around in my life, i haven't seen any impact in my quality of life due to him being alive - and now that he's dead - well my life is still the same.
Perhaps you meant to say "your" world is better off without him. And if so, how did he affect your life and what additional freedoms do you now have, now that he's dead?
The highest payment for justice is death. Monetary is only one form of payment and to most people it is the lease expensive to pay it off. When a criminal killed someone in cold blood like what Tookie did, the victims family and society does not want monetary payment, which they consider an insult. They do not want life in prison, which they consider not enough for those deaths. What they and society wanted was his death as payment for justice and in the end they were satisfy with it.
I think everyone agrees that that those lives that Tookie took is worth more then whatever money he can pay back. Dont insult the victims and the victims family.
dont be a moron.. look at my more previous post I didnt insult the families at all . pay attention dont take my words out of text and assume crap. pull your head out of your dark hole.. take a deep breath and stick it back in.