Originally posted by Dihoru Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out
Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however. Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred. Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).
Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).
Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.
Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).
Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this? Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).
He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs.
Actually his measurements weren't that far from that. If you want to center on height .. fine. But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.
Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.
Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.
Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him and before you say anything: He was a athlete, I was merely fit back then.
Your obsession with body morphology and how it dictates things it clearly does not is rather fascinating in a morbid sort of way, tell me does the notion of someone defying your notions of what you think is right upset you? In the real world people 1.7 m tall don't play basketball because they'll never be the stars and everyone wants to be a star but to put it bluntly in a defensive role such people would be nightmares to get passed if they trained even half decently (played both football and basketball in my high-school days, never gave much effort to either, was around 1.60-1.65 back then, on average the basketball players were 10 cms taller than me and trained, they still feared getting into my area and in football I was unmatched in my ability to be a pain in the ass in terms of stealing the ball, again average teen but playing against semi-pros, it's all in how you go about things in life, if you think you can't be something you will often self-sabotage).
Back on topic though: The notion of race dictating anything in a game is a stupid and archaic leftover from a 1970s PnP game, as long as the racially adapted classes make sense no one has anything to comment on it ( creatures who do not have a mana pool to draw on can cast magic by proxy using some other fount of power, creatures that are smaller in stature can be agility based warriors, the large ones can be spongy rogues with immense damage potential, etc ).
Originally posted by bliss14 Indeed, games should not contribute to racism. All of the races should be equal in all ways. Except gnomes. Screw them.
+1 ^ : )
A friend and I were just having a very similar discussion the other day, and I had explained that arbitrary restrictions based on race basically comes down to racism. If a dwarf can't be a mage because they're a dwarf - that is arbitrary IMO. If arcane magic use just isn't a large part of dwarf culture that's a different thing all together. In the first example, the restriction has no real justification, and leads a player to try and concoct a reason for this limitation. At least in the second example the reason for dwarves not being arcane casters is plausible - BUT it isn't an outright 'restriction' but can be construed as 'uncommon' if not 'exceedingly rare' for a dwarf to be an arcane caster because of dwarven society / culture. It should follow then that dwarven arcane casters CAN exist, (this could translate in game terms that it's a rare epic quest for Dwarves to discover the means to become arcane casters.)
I just want more justification and less contradiction, (like if a dwarf can't be a 'Mage' but can be an 'Enchanter' or a 'Necromancer', or a 'Warlock', etc.)
IMO; Arbitrary or 'For game balance' restrictions = Lazy design.
Originally posted by Dihoru Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out
Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however. Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred. Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).
Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).
Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.
Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).
Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this? Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).
He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs.
Actually his measurements weren't that far from that. If you want to center on height .. fine. But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.
Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.
Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.
Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him
< SNIP >
Your justifications are meaningless - as far as anyone knows you instigated the fight, and likely beat up a smaller person.
But ...
Sometimes race matters. In fantasy, some races are smart, some are dumb, some are strong, some are weak ...it adds to the mix. Race should matter in fantasy games. Making races matter in turn makes players matter...
Take stuff like that away and it's a crappy MMORPG where nobody cares about their character or themselves. (low longevity game, quickly going to the trashcan)
Originally posted by Dihoru Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out
Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however. Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred. Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).
Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).
Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.
Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).
Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this? Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).
He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs.
Actually his measurements weren't that far from that. If you want to center on height .. fine. But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.
Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.
Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.
Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him
< SNIP >
Your justifications are meaningless - as far as anyone knows you instigated the fight, and likely beat up a smaller person.
But ...
Sometimes race matters. In fantasy, some races are smart, some are dumb, some are strong, some are weak ...it adds to the mix. Race should matter in fantasy games. Making races matter in turn makes players matter...
Take stuff like that away and it's a crappy MMORPG where nobody cares about their character or themselves. (low longevity game, quickly going to the trashcan)
Using your examples makes the races one dimensional. It doesn't leave room for variances of individuals. Basically fantasy based stereotyping.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
Originally posted by Dihoru Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out
Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however. Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred. Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).
Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).
Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.
Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).
Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this? Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).
He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs.
Actually his measurements weren't that far from that. If you want to center on height .. fine. But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.
Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.
Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.
Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him
< SNIP >
Your justifications are meaningless - as far as anyone knows you instigated the fight, and likely beat up a smaller person.
But ...
Sometimes race matters. In fantasy, some races are smart, some are dumb, some are strong, some are weak ...it adds to the mix. Race should matter in fantasy games. Making races matter in turn makes players matter...
Take stuff like that away and it's a crappy MMORPG where nobody cares about their character or themselves. (low longevity game, quickly going to the trashcan)
Using your examples makes the races one dimensional. It doesn't leave room for variances of individuals. Basically fantasy based stereotyping.
EverQuest chose their races in 1999. Whether or not they want stereotyping is apparently their business, since SOE is still around with the EQ brand.
I always play a warrior and if available always a Dwarf Nothing to do with stats but those but those 3 foot tall walls off steel are just awesome.
i however do care about stupid things as Oger rogues etc..
Why? What is a rogue? Someone focused more of offense than defense?
In an ogre city having a ogre rogue sneaking around wouldn't seem that strange. Size is relative. When small folks fight tall you end up with Yoda's lightsaber battle. Isn't that just as ridiculous? Dwarves have a reach of what? A foot? They look like tiny tyrannosaurus rexs trying to box, so wouldn't a dwarf fighter be just as silly?
I always play a warrior and if available always a Dwarf Nothing to do with stats but those but those 3 foot tall walls off steel are just awesome.
i however do care about stupid things as Oger rogues etc..
Why? What is a rogue? Someone focused more of offense than defense?
In an ogre city having a ogre rogue sneaking around wouldn't seem that strange. Size is relative. When small folks fight tall you end up with Yoda's lightsaber battle. Isn't that just as ridiculous? Dwarves have a reach of what? A foot? They look like tiny tyrannosaurus rexs trying to box, so wouldn't a dwarf fighter be just as silly?
Dwarfs are redicolously strong so they make up for there size by being battle hardened warriors. Same can be said for ogres and trolls (if we talk about EQ) they are very big and strong. why would one wield 2 tiny daggers when they would be able to dualwield double headed two handed battle axes.
Originally posted by Dihoru Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out ( example: a dwarven mage could rely on rune based magic instead of mana based magic, basically instead of chanting some latin shit and using his mana he draws symbols in some fashion that achieve the same thing, they both have to have the same degree of limitation in damage/healting/w/e potentials but yeah two different flavours for the same thing, also to the numptee that said midget races shouldn't be warriors: think lighter armour, no large two handed weapons but significant bonuses to dodging thus allowing you to be a warrior and with slight work that agility can make you more useful than a lumbering ogre warrior).
Choices are great...unless they have no consequence or meaning then they are pointless.
as for your examples the information in the OP negates most of them as the only variation between races will be cosmetic that means no stat variation between classes due to race...some of what you say may come to pass as cosmetic animations but nothing that impacts game play.
But this is the way the majority seem to want it because they want everything available to them on one characteras ASAP and the majority usually wins.
It does however seem to be a strange way to start a "Life of Consequences"
The reason EQI was so popular was because of the locked race types and for me I feel that's the thing which could let EQN down, however until we know more then there is no point with the dramatic statements because we no nothing in full yet and I am of the opinion that SOE have not got any where near a game otherwise we would be hearing more information weekly and that's not happening.
I feel the round table thing is there way of getting what we want to play and guiding them and that's why we seen very little of the game thus far. I guess from what we have seen there has to be some kind of game but they holding it to close to their chest and we will have to wait and see. I for one am no fan of hype or speculation so until we see more then I'll just hold judgment until I get my hands on the beta.
I'd just like to point out that EQ1 being popular was not down to locked race types.
the only requirement is that the fantasy world is itself internally consistent.
that's it.
it doesn't need to be consistent with other versions of that world, or with any other world. it only needs to be consistent with itself to be believable.
if that is not the case for you then you are importing another world into the current world. and of course at that point they are going to contradict.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I always play a warrior and if available always a Dwarf Nothing to do with stats but those but those 3 foot tall walls off steel are just awesome.
i however do care about stupid things as Oger rogues etc..
Why? What is a rogue? Someone focused more of offense than defense?
In an ogre city having a ogre rogue sneaking around wouldn't seem that strange. Size is relative. When small folks fight tall you end up with Yoda's lightsaber battle. Isn't that just as ridiculous? Dwarves have a reach of what? A foot? They look like tiny tyrannosaurus rexs trying to box, so wouldn't a dwarf fighter be just as silly?
He wins. Just for the Dwarf/T rex visual that is stuck in my head, he gets prize for best comment.
Again, I am not yet sure how strongly I feel about it but I can't shake the feeling that the choices I make in character creation should mean something, from race, class, and every other offered option on. Here, its seeming like pick an art set you like and run with it. Somehow I still miss options from older RPGs like choosing a zodiac sign, a deity, and maybe a trade skill and seeing that have an effect in game.
So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.
No racial factions
No racial limitations
No racial variation (that impacts on game play)
No racial advantage
In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.
For me this is a big disappointment.
You are confusing race and class. What they said is that any player should be able to achieve any class while playing the game. They did not say anything about how factions would play a role other then going back to the reveal where choices you make can most certainly effect what classes you can choose.
Races can be completely different and still be able to train in any class.
Races can be faction driven and still be able to train in any class
Racial limitations and advantages should only be cosmetic anyway to prevent a server full of dwarfs or elves.
In short racial variation can still play a significant role even if you can train and eventually learn every class.
Originally posted by Dihoru Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out ( example: a dwarven mage could rely on rune based magic instead of mana based magic, basically instead of chanting some latin shit and using his mana he draws symbols in some fashion that achieve the same thing, they both have to have the same degree of limitation in damage/healting/w/e potentials but yeah two different flavours for the same thing, also to the numptee that said midget races shouldn't be warriors: think lighter armour, no large two handed weapons but significant bonuses to dodging thus allowing you to be a warrior and with slight work that agility can make you more useful than a lumbering ogre warrior).
Choices are great...unless they have no consequence or meaning then they are pointless.
as for your examples the information in the OP negates most of them as the only variation between races will be cosmetic that means no stat variation between classes due to race...some of what you say may come to pass as cosmetic animations but nothing that impacts game play.
But this is the way the majority seem to want it because they want everything available to them on one characteras ASAP and the majority usually wins.
It does however seem to be a strange way to start a "Life of Consequences"
Your choices give you consequences you have to deal with and having all classes open to all races does not reduce the risk of consequences it merely shifts them more towards the immediate present rather than the more removed near past (ex: you, as say that rat-like race, chose a warrior, for obvious reasons you don't start off with high strength but you want to play a warrior so you have a choice: either put more emphasis on items to enhance that stat or use your natural stats as a way to play a warrior in a novel way, think of it as playing a woad warrior instead of a flat out champion, check Age of Empires 2 for a translation if you don't know what I mean).
The information the OP has is not factual, it is hearsay even if said hearsay is from a developer until you see the system in action you cannot provide factual information (games evolve or de-evolve from their early builds and by what I know EQN is at best a late alpha game so God knows what they might shift around), you can however state opinion based guesses.
Where anyone can be anything, even if it doesn't make sense....
This reminds me of the SWG Jedi fiasco. They went from making Jedi special and noteworthy (since they were hard to achieve and therefore relatively rare) to putting a light saber in the hand of everyone.
Giving everything to everyone results in a mushy sameness. Since no one has to accept the consequences of making choices (good and bad) ultimately choosing itself loses meaning and people stop caring.
So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.
No racial factions
No racial limitations
No racial variation (that impacts on game play)
No racial advantage
In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.
For me this is a big disappointment.
This is the standard and has been for some time. It's a big part of why there is:
1. ZERO immersion
2. Very little long term dedication by players (see #1)
3. Lazy and unimaginative on the part of the developers
4. FOLKS what does this tell you? How does the industry see you? As intelligent and in depth, or moronic?
5. And finally, yet again they took the RPG out of MMO. This is y default an mmoVG (massively multi player online video game). Not sure I'm correct? Read the lore, then when Frontiers is patched in (pvp), and you use your elf to kill your first elf...
So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.
Deal in absolutes much?
No racial factions
Why can't they? Factions can be earned, both god and bad.
No racial limitations
Now, why should every single individual in a specific race be good or bad, not be able to wear plate or swing a two-handed sword?
No racial variation (that impacts on game play)
Having this in a game means that players will be boxed into making a specific race for a specific build or the elite won't accept you because you must have been stupid to pick a human to be a ranger because you get 10 additional Agility points at max level...
No racial advantage
Why couldn't they do this? EQ2 has them and they aren't game breaking at all.
In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.
I don't know about you, but I don't spend any time at all picking my underpants color, I just grab the pair on top.
For me this is a big disappointment.
While I believe you have a right to enjoy games with the features you prefer, this may not be the game for you, but then again, if you wait and follow the game things may change. You are jumping to conclusions here and assuming much as far as I know.
So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.
Deal in absolutes much?
No factions means no immersion, no believability, no competition between fantasy cultures hence nothing of political importance going on to make this game feel alive. Watch Lord of the Rings much? Imagine this lackluster variation on fantasy being applied to that story. The Hobbits would pvp each other in the Frontier, and Elvish wouldn't exist, Legolas wouldn't have ridiculous dexterity, and Gimli would be college educated. It would be nonsense.
No racial factions
Why can't they? Factions can be earned, both god and bad.
Real factions, not, "Hey I'm 10 and don't want to be 'stuck' learning how to increase my social skills to work with my realm. I want to bounce and hop and jump between any group of people as I see fit cause you know, I'm just a kid!"
No racial limitations
Now, why should every single individual in a specific race be good or bad, not be able to wear plate or swing a two-handed sword?
Why should a navy seal be good at underwater demolitions, or the president of the United States be a good public speaker? Ever see what happens when our president is god-awful at speaking? (W. Bush anyone?). Okay, so that's not fantasy. Without variation, movies like Star Wars and the Lord of the RIngs would be so damned bland that no one would have cared about the characters. This is a pattern we often see in mmorpgs today where people play and quit due to lack of interest. This birthed the F2P concept, because the theory was that a crap game could still make profit out of the 1 out of 100 players that actually used the cash shop.
No racial variation (that impacts on game play)
Having this in a game means that players will be boxed into making a specific race for a specific build or the elite won't accept you because you must have been stupid to pick a human to be a ranger because you get 10 additional Agility points at max level...
Why have race then? What is the point of the RPG in mmo? Why not just have this be Gauntlet Online (Elf needs food!)...why even play an mmorpg for that matter? Isn't there something on PS3 that might offer more than this? Racial gameplay is huge. Ask any Olympic long distance runner what they think of Zaire or Kenya. Again, this watering down to appease the masses so they don't cry over having to think too much...is disgusting.
No racial advantage
Why couldn't they do this? EQ2 has them and they aren't game breaking at all.
In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.
I don't know about you, but I don't spend any time at all picking my underpants color, I just grab the pair on top.
See above for why variation and differences matter.
For me this is a big disappointment.
While I believe you have a right to enjoy games with the features you prefer, this may not be the game for you, but then again, if you wait and follow the game things may change. You are jumping to conclusions here and assuming much as far as I know.
Here's where I will agree. This is NOT the game for the OP. This game is meant to cater to a player base that has zero interest in variation and character difference. There's no roleplay here, no immersion. This is just another video game where lots of folks can log in. In a year, I doubt anyone will even care this game ever came out.
Some posters have suggested I am jumping to conclusions.I assure you this is not the case.
Watch the round table on racial class limitations.
Its not just their indication that they dont want to have ANY limitations on class/race, its the suggestion that NO choice a player makes when they start the game should prevent that player form being competitive in any role they wish to with that character.
As someone said above this may not be the game for me...
To date it is looking like you are correct.
Which I find disappointing as many of the core technologies are fantastic.
I have had enough of flavorless MMOs where choices have no consequences.
Everyone is the same and all toons can be all things in all situations
So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.
Deal in absolutes much?
No factions means no immersion, no believability, no competition between fantasy cultures hence nothing of political importance going on to make this game feel alive. Watch Lord of the Rings much? Imagine this lackluster variation on fantasy being applied to that story. The Hobbits would pvp each other in the Frontier, and Elvish wouldn't exist, Legolas wouldn't have ridiculous dexterity, and Gimli would be college educated. It would be nonsense.
No racial factions
Why can't they? Factions can be earned, both god and bad.
Real factions, not, "Hey I'm 10 and don't want to be 'stuck' learning how to increase my social skills to work with my realm. I want to bounce and hop and jump between any group of people as I see fit cause you know, I'm just a kid!"
No racial limitations
Now, why should every single individual in a specific race be good or bad, not be able to wear plate or swing a two-handed sword?
Why should a navy seal be good at underwater demolitions, or the president of the United States be a good public speaker? Ever see what happens when our president is god-awful at speaking? (W. Bush anyone?). Okay, so that's not fantasy. Without variation, movies like Star Wars and the Lord of the RIngs would be so damned bland that no one would have cared about the characters. This is a pattern we often see in mmorpgs today where people play and quit due to lack of interest. This birthed the F2P concept, because the theory was that a crap game could still make profit out of the 1 out of 100 players that actually used the cash shop.
No racial variation (that impacts on game play)
Having this in a game means that players will be boxed into making a specific race for a specific build or the elite won't accept you because you must have been stupid to pick a human to be a ranger because you get 10 additional Agility points at max level...
Why have race then? What is the point of the RPG in mmo? Why not just have this be Gauntlet Online (Elf needs food!)...why even play an mmorpg for that matter? Isn't there something on PS3 that might offer more than this? Racial gameplay is huge. Ask any Olympic long distance runner what they think of Zaire or Kenya. Again, this watering down to appease the masses so they don't cry over having to think too much...is disgusting.
No racial advantage
Why couldn't they do this? EQ2 has them and they aren't game breaking at all.
In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.
I don't know about you, but I don't spend any time at all picking my underpants color, I just grab the pair on top.
See above for why variation and differences matter.
For me this is a big disappointment.
While I believe you have a right to enjoy games with the features you prefer, this may not be the game for you, but then again, if you wait and follow the game things may change. You are jumping to conclusions here and assuming much as far as I know.
Here's where I will agree. This is NOT the game for the OP. This game is meant to cater to a player base that has zero interest in variation and character difference. There's no roleplay here, no immersion. This is just another video game where lots of folks can log in. In a year, I doubt anyone will even care this game ever came out.
How does allowing every player the chance to learn and earn every class equal no racial differences? Factions will play a huge role in the game so much so in fact that people that chose to do evil will not be able to become a Paladin. This game will be all about choice.
It is entirely possible that choosing to play an Ogre may mean that you can't learn any skills from the Elves. Instead learn your skills from someone else.
How does allowing every player the chance to learn and earn every class equal no racial differences? Factions will play a huge role in the game so much so in fact that people that chose to do evil will not be able to become a Paladin. This game will be all about choice.
It is entirely possible that choosing to play an Ogre may mean that you can't learn any skills from the Elves. Instead learn your skills from someone else.
Watch the round table on class/race restrictions
They clearly indicate that they HAD intended to have restrictions/limitations or penalties but after some time working through the possibilities they backed away from ANY and ALL restrictions/limitations or penalties.
Comments
Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.
Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him and before you say anything: He was a athlete, I was merely fit back then.
Your obsession with body morphology and how it dictates things it clearly does not is rather fascinating in a morbid sort of way, tell me does the notion of someone defying your notions of what you think is right upset you? In the real world people 1.7 m tall don't play basketball because they'll never be the stars and everyone wants to be a star but to put it bluntly in a defensive role such people would be nightmares to get passed if they trained even half decently (played both football and basketball in my high-school days, never gave much effort to either, was around 1.60-1.65 back then, on average the basketball players were 10 cms taller than me and trained, they still feared getting into my area and in football I was unmatched in my ability to be a pain in the ass in terms of stealing the ball, again average teen but playing against semi-pros, it's all in how you go about things in life, if you think you can't be something you will often self-sabotage).
Back on topic though: The notion of race dictating anything in a game is a stupid and archaic leftover from a 1970s PnP game, as long as the racially adapted classes make sense no one has anything to comment on it ( creatures who do not have a mana pool to draw on can cast magic by proxy using some other fount of power, creatures that are smaller in stature can be agility based warriors, the large ones can be spongy rogues with immense damage potential, etc ).
+1 ^ : )
A friend and I were just having a very similar discussion the other day, and I had explained that arbitrary restrictions based on race basically comes down to racism. If a dwarf can't be a mage because they're a dwarf - that is arbitrary IMO. If arcane magic use just isn't a large part of dwarf culture that's a different thing all together. In the first example, the restriction has no real justification, and leads a player to try and concoct a reason for this limitation. At least in the second example the reason for dwarves not being arcane casters is plausible - BUT it isn't an outright 'restriction' but can be construed as 'uncommon' if not 'exceedingly rare' for a dwarf to be an arcane caster because of dwarven society / culture. It should follow then that dwarven arcane casters CAN exist, (this could translate in game terms that it's a rare epic quest for Dwarves to discover the means to become arcane casters.)
I just want more justification and less contradiction, (like if a dwarf can't be a 'Mage' but can be an 'Enchanter' or a 'Necromancer', or a 'Warlock', etc.)
IMO; Arbitrary or 'For game balance' restrictions = Lazy design.
Your justifications are meaningless - as far as anyone knows you instigated the fight, and likely beat up a smaller person.
But ...
Sometimes race matters. In fantasy, some races are smart, some are dumb, some are strong, some are weak ...it adds to the mix. Race should matter in fantasy games. Making races matter in turn makes players matter...
Take stuff like that away and it's a crappy MMORPG where nobody cares about their character or themselves. (low longevity game, quickly going to the trashcan)
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
Using your examples makes the races one dimensional. It doesn't leave room for variances of individuals. Basically fantasy based stereotyping.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
EverQuest chose their races in 1999. Whether or not they want stereotyping is apparently their business, since SOE is still around with the EQ brand.
EQ made the world. SOE needs to adhere to it.
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
Could not care less about stats anyway.
I always play a warrior and if available always a Dwarf Nothing to do with stats but those but those 3 foot tall walls off steel are just awesome.
i however do care about stupid things as Oger rogues etc..
MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE Playing Game
Massi Multi Onli ROLE Play Gam
Ma Mu On ROLE Pl Ga
M M O ROLE P G
ROLE
ROLE
ROLE
...
Where is the role when every race plays the same and soon every class too like GW2?
Please note the "plays the same", I didnt wrote "looks the same" ...
But, but, but he attacked me when I was low life!
Yes, HE DID, why you cant do the same to him?
Uf that will take me a lot of time...
HERE IS YOUR QUEST!
But, but, but he attacked me when I was low life!
Yes, HE DID, why you cant do the same to him?
Uf that will take me a lot of time...
HERE IS YOUR QUEST!
Why? What is a rogue? Someone focused more of offense than defense?
In an ogre city having a ogre rogue sneaking around wouldn't seem that strange. Size is relative. When small folks fight tall you end up with Yoda's lightsaber battle. Isn't that just as ridiculous? Dwarves have a reach of what? A foot? They look like tiny tyrannosaurus rexs trying to box, so wouldn't a dwarf fighter be just as silly?
Tauren rogue imo...
Dwarfs are redicolously strong so they make up for there size by being battle hardened warriors. Same can be said for ogres and trolls (if we talk about EQ) they are very big and strong. why would one wield 2 tiny daggers when they would be able to dualwield double headed two handed battle axes.
Choices are great...unless they have no consequence or meaning then they are pointless.
as for your examples the information in the OP negates most of them as the only variation between races will be cosmetic that means no stat variation between classes due to race...some of what you say may come to pass as cosmetic animations but nothing that impacts game play.
But this is the way the majority seem to want it because they want everything available to them on one characteras ASAP and the majority usually wins.
It does however seem to be a strange way to start a "Life of Consequences"
I'd just like to point out that EQ1 being popular was not down to locked race types.
That is all.
Logic and fantasy worlds ...
the only requirement is that the fantasy world is itself internally consistent.
that's it.
it doesn't need to be consistent with other versions of that world, or with any other world. it only needs to be consistent with itself to be believable.
if that is not the case for you then you are importing another world into the current world. and of course at that point they are going to contradict.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
He wins. Just for the Dwarf/T rex visual that is stuck in my head, he gets prize for best comment.
You are confusing race and class. What they said is that any player should be able to achieve any class while playing the game. They did not say anything about how factions would play a role other then going back to the reveal where choices you make can most certainly effect what classes you can choose.
Races can be completely different and still be able to train in any class.
Races can be faction driven and still be able to train in any class
Racial limitations and advantages should only be cosmetic anyway to prevent a server full of dwarfs or elves.
In short racial variation can still play a significant role even if you can train and eventually learn every class.
Your choices give you consequences you have to deal with and having all classes open to all races does not reduce the risk of consequences it merely shifts them more towards the immediate present rather than the more removed near past (ex: you, as say that rat-like race, chose a warrior, for obvious reasons you don't start off with high strength but you want to play a warrior so you have a choice: either put more emphasis on items to enhance that stat or use your natural stats as a way to play a warrior in a novel way, think of it as playing a woad warrior instead of a flat out champion, check Age of Empires 2 for a translation if you don't know what I mean).
The information the OP has is not factual, it is hearsay even if said hearsay is from a developer until you see the system in action you cannot provide factual information (games evolve or de-evolve from their early builds and by what I know EQN is at best a late alpha game so God knows what they might shift around), you can however state opinion based guesses.
This reminds me of the SWG Jedi fiasco. They went from making Jedi special and noteworthy (since they were hard to achieve and therefore relatively rare) to putting a light saber in the hand of everyone.
Giving everything to everyone results in a mushy sameness. Since no one has to accept the consequences of making choices (good and bad) ultimately choosing itself loses meaning and people stop caring.
*sigh*
This is the standard and has been for some time. It's a big part of why there is:
1. ZERO immersion
2. Very little long term dedication by players (see #1)
3. Lazy and unimaginative on the part of the developers
4. FOLKS what does this tell you? How does the industry see you? As intelligent and in depth, or moronic?
5. And finally, yet again they took the RPG out of MMO. This is y default an mmoVG (massively multi player online video game). Not sure I'm correct? Read the lore, then when Frontiers is patched in (pvp), and you use your elf to kill your first elf...
OP, hopefully see you in Elder Scrolls Online
/salute
Some posters have suggested I am jumping to conclusions.I assure you this is not the case.
Watch the round table on racial class limitations.
Its not just their indication that they dont want to have ANY limitations on class/race, its the suggestion that NO choice a player makes when they start the game should prevent that player form being competitive in any role they wish to with that character.
As someone said above this may not be the game for me...
To date it is looking like you are correct.
Which I find disappointing as many of the core technologies are fantastic.
I have had enough of flavorless MMOs where choices have no consequences.
Everyone is the same and all toons can be all things in all situations
How does allowing every player the chance to learn and earn every class equal no racial differences? Factions will play a huge role in the game so much so in fact that people that chose to do evil will not be able to become a Paladin. This game will be all about choice.
It is entirely possible that choosing to play an Ogre may mean that you can't learn any skills from the Elves. Instead learn your skills from someone else.
Watch the round table on class/race restrictions
They clearly indicate that they HAD intended to have restrictions/limitations or penalties but after some time working through the possibilities they backed away from ANY and ALL restrictions/limitations or penalties.