This game is just another one with restricted PVP. This game could have been AMAZING. All they had to do was take the idea of elder scrolls openness and make it fully open.
I want to be able to worry about being ganked on the open road. Not be super friendly happy time except in the PVP zone. That's stupid as fuck and is nothing like the open Elder Scrolls we all know and love.
Hand holding and restrictions are the way forward and it killed this game for me.
Ganking and grieving games are not very popular but there exist some against all odds and maybe you should try them. ESO won't be one of them though because financially it's kind of pointless to make an MMO for a few thousand likely customers.
Except if what I've read about this game Cyrodiil WILL BE the place you get ganked, you may even get ganked while fighting a boss in a dungeon, well what I should say is YOU WILL be ganked, and ganked while fighting a boss.
The whole structure of Cyrodiil for the most of it is exactly like DAoC. Someone in this very thread linked two articles, one explaining DAoCs RvR, the other comparing and constrasting whats been announced for ESO.
Both being very very similar. It also explains why Warhammer and GW2s RvR didn't work out, im paraphrasing here but a big part was the fact that both games end up doing a sort of auto balance after a set period of time. You would be amazed how dedicated people get when they feel connected to a realm or community. RF online had that I remember waking up at odd hours to fight for the core i think it was called to mine for resources. But among the limited content and serious balance issues between the 3 factions it didn't last long for me. (the robotic race was by far the strongest race, their weakness was suppose to be low damage, but high armor but the developers that localized the game decided to give them rings and amulets that boosted their damage when they were not suppose to get them for the sake of balance)
I'm highly dubious about the success of this game. I'm getting the impression that the main focus is "maximising the monetization potential of the IP", as opposed to building a good ES game.
By all accounts, the IP by itself will no doubt result in masses of box sales. But I believe the aftermath is going to be very ugly.
All Oblivion and Skyrim fans will be secretly hoping that ESO will deliver the same experience as they had in those games, except in ESO the world will be filled with real people instead of scripted NPC's !
It's a very seductive concept, but any MMO vet will tell you that those "real people" will irrevocably change the game play experience.
No longer will you walk the streets of the towns and cities and overhear snatches of atmospheric NPC chat dialogue. Instead the world will be filled with shouts of: "LF1M mage for Devils Crypt - GS4500 or higher !!1!1!!" or "Cheap ESO golds ! Only $50 for 500, instant delivered guarantee !"
Just as you've finally managed to sneak within bow range of that stag, it bolts, because xXxDovakin DudexXx has come charging along bunny-hopping his armoured horse across the moors...
You haven't read too much about this game have you? Because from what I've seen of videos and read from interviews they are not promising what you wrote in the red, not even in the slightest. That just sounds like something you just pulled out of your ...
This game is just another one with restricted PVP. This game could have been AMAZING. All they had to do was take the idea of elder scrolls openness and make it fully open.
I want to be able to worry about being ganked on the open road. Not be super friendly happy time except in the PVP zone. That's stupid as fuck and is nothing like the open Elder Scrolls we all know and love.
Hand holding and restrictions are the way forward and it killed this game for me.
Ganking and grieving games are not very popular but there exist some against all odds and maybe you should try them. ESO won't be one of them though because financially it's kind of pointless to make an MMO for a few thousand likely customers.
Except if what I've read about this game Cyrodiil WILL BE the place you get ganked, you may even get ganked while fighting a boss in a dungeon, well what I should say is YOU WILL be ganked, and ganked while fighting a boss.
The whole structure of Cyrodiil for the most of it is exactly like DAoC. Someone in this very thread linked two articles, one explaining DAoCs RvR, the other comparing and constrasting whats been announced for ESO.
Both being very very similar. It also explains why Warhammer and GW2s RvR didn't work out, im paraphrasing here but a big part was the fact that both games end up doing a sort of auto balance after a set period of time. You would be amazed how dedicated people get when they feel connected to a realm or community. RF online had that I remember waking up at odd hours to fight for the core i think it was called to mine for resources. But among the limited content and serious balance issues between the 3 factions it didn't last long for me. (the robotic race was by far the strongest race, their weakness was suppose to be low damage, but high armor but the developers that localized the game decided to give them rings and amulets that boosted their damage when they were not suppose to get them for the sake of balance)
Read my previous post, I'm not against PvP in certain zones but I'm totally against OWPvP because it brings too many sociopaths into the community. Don't give a shite about Daoc though because most problems ESO has are because of it's Daoc devs who were bragging about 3 faction war game with artificial barriers and started to add Elder Scrolls aspects to the game only after community backlash. So my motto would be less Daoc more ES.
Uh, I think he was talking about the players, not the devs.
And 'Dovekin Dude' and his ilk are an irritation in most MMOs. Though in a modern world game it would make a bit more sense. One of the reasons I kinda want to see what happens in WoD. ESO, not so much.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Read my previous post, I'm not against PvP in certain zones but I'm totally against OWPvP because it brings too many sociopaths into the community. Don't give a shite about Daoc though because most problems ESO has are because of it's Daoc devs who were bragging about 3 faction war game with artificial barriers and started to add Elder Scrolls aspects to the game only after community backlash. So my motto would be less Daoc more ES.
Got to agree about the attractive nuisance aspect of it. Bad dudes migrate to places where it is easier for them to cause trouble to the most people. They are in small number, but they can have a disproportionate influence on a game, and its retention of paying customers.
And I am pretty sure that some investigative study lead the top brass to decide that the market for ES fans was far greater than DAoC fans.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
You're critcizing Bill when your article is the definition of Bias.
There is mixed opinion on faction lock- some like it, some don't. The reasons given by Paul Sage on the Q&A on this very site made sense to me http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/userPosts/2525179. Maybe it will in fact create an interesting dynamic between factions and encourage factional pride. Also, if you're committed to your character's progression, you don't have to create an alt to see everything. It's called 50+ and 50++ content, and it allows exploration of the remaining faction territories once you can hit level cap.
ESO is not another SWTOR. SWTOR failed largely because of lack of endgame content. As far as I've seen, ESO has taken many steps to avoid this.
It was a nice rebuttal, fun to read. While I don't agree with many of Teala's arguments (like LotRO's f2p switch, or the ADD / locust gamers), I think the conclusion is spot on.
Your "faction lock- some like it, some don't" line is "true", only you missed to add that the "some don't" group is much more numerous than the handful of "some like it" ones... "mixed opinion"... lol.
And to your It's called 50+ and 50++ content line, as a step to avoid TOR's lack of endgame - you do know hopefully, that it's only in the game because Zenimax came to its senses and recognized that the massive uproar among the fans won't just fade away with time, so they had to find some quick solution on Firor's invisible walls... which is a nice indicator of their target group, which is not the couple thousand of ex daoc players, or else they would've not loosen up Firor's Precccious f*cktion lock.
Instead of bringing in the Non-MMO gamers maybe they should make a game for MMO gamers. Makes about as much sense as inviting vegetarians to a BBQ. In fact I bet ESO will feel exactly like going to a vegetarian BBQ.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Interesting... advertising? How many TES players have 200+ hour saves? How many on them on console, how many on PC? What makes those play so long on a singleplayer game, morso even with just a single character? Could it be PC users with mods primary? What type of mods? And if not, what does the singleplayer versions have that entertain the singleplayers what TESO has not?
I'm not sure what to think of all the current "Its just like the singleplayer experience + more!" hypemachine Zenimax is feeding right now. It all reads like uneducated marketing lines from ppl not really getting it and actually not even caring that those they try to reach know they getting BS thrown at them.
Recently in a TES4 360+ hours save: Spent some time travelling around in a new landmass area (modded, similar to MMO XPacks), explored some dungeons (MMO=check) and found some cool looking armor set (mmo=check) wich was a bit less cool and far less usable than my current stuff (also possible in MMOs) but that was ok, it looks facy, so I took it to my home (TES standart; MMO=???), took a woodmannequin out of a chest (Mod; MMO=???), placed it in the armory and put the fancy loot on it to display. Also a few of my mino skills got a bit up, the ones not usually part of my choosen class (TES standart; MMO=???) My char has enough gold, so there would have been no reason to go exploring, raiding the dungeon and picking up the armor just to carry it around in my inventory.
You Zenimax Online guys want the TES players that loves to stay like forever in their singleplayer save files? Do not talk, just do. Multifractionwarefare is not what keeps me revisiting the singleplayer game.
I haven't read through this entire thread, yet, but one thing struck me about the title and early responces. Targeting "casual" and targeting non-MMO gamers is not actually the same thing. There are some very dedicated and decidedly not "casual" gamers who play, or primarilly play, different types of games. Hell, "casual" itself needs to be better defined. Are you "casual" if you have been a gamer your entire life and then litterally work to much to spend anywhere near as much time as you used to? Are you "casual" if you pull out old school consoles and play beside real life friends or alone? And "casual" mmo is a bit different then an MMO for the "party game" and "bus stop ap" only players. To *me* those are the casual gamers, the ones that I'm slightl glad to see trying out gaming, often for the first time. But if you have sat their and played enormous multidisk RPG games, if you have bought a computer for gaming or a whole slew of consoles and play....you may or may not currently be a MMO player but you are not "casual".
Well, after checking out another TESO leak (screens and PvP gameplay), I have to say that the game looks a lot like Skyrim online (with usual ESO clunky combat, which apparently fans don't mind).
That will probably be enough to warrant a solid PC box sales of around 1-1.5 million. Will AvA PvP make people sub for months? I don't think so.
Will monthly sub deter console players from buying this game? Who knows, but most likely yes.
I just don't see this game suceeding long term, unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat.
I'm really not hyped for this. As A ES fan, I will not be buying this game it looks lackluster and its all phrased and instanced how can you call that an MMO? I really hope this doesnt become the death knell of the series like SWTOR did to the knights of the old republic series.
I'm not sure what to think of all the current "Its just like the singleplayer experience + more!" hypemachine Zenimax is feeding right now.
Me neither, but at least ES fans can hope that it's not only just PR bullsh*t and probably they will indeed focusing more onto the ES part. I mean there were a few changes during the last year...
Like Konkle said in the VideoGamer interview, "But I think it’s safe to say that during the last year, we’ve made some pretty significant pushes to ensuring that there are more Elder Scrolls things included."
Same did Maria in the EuroGamer video yesterday, with the many changes they did due to the direct feedbacks and stuff. My favourite part is when she says they wanna make an Elder Scrolls game, and "If it's not an ES game, then, what's the point?" http://youtu.be/KzmmUAX1qII thank you, though it took a few years to recognise that
So yep, maybe it's only PR, but I still like the fact that they at least realised finally that the ES part of their future customer base is not entirely happy, and adding to that, as Arglebargle wrote, they're not the minority...
Originally posted by Arglebargle
And I am pretty sure that some investigative study lead the top brass to decide that the market for ES fans was far greater than DAoC fans.
Originally posted by BMBender Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by GruugI'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose.
Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people.
I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell.
**
Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Funny stuff, people here love to blame the Devs when it fact its the gamers today wanting everything and for free, Mobile game is were it is at today most of the TRUE MMORPG players have quit due to Real life... Many what I call new gamers have ruined the genre period... I left many games because of the community's not the game it self...
Even if someone made the best game like UO and asheron call, EQ, it would never make it today, because of how people act today, MMO's are dieing face that fact.....
Originally posted by GruugI'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose.
Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people.
I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell.
**
Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
Originally posted by BMBender Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by BMBenderOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by GruugI'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people. I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell. ** Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game. I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
When I read your post, I had assumed that KOTOR had a fan base in the range of Elder Scrolls. Boy was that assumption wrong. Which lead to the rest of my post.
I dunno. I think if they approach the game with the mentality of making an Elder Scrolls game, like Firor said they are doing, then they should be able to make a good game. It won't please everyone, but it should please a lot of people.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by GruugI'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people. I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell. ** Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
When I read your post, I had assumed that KOTOR had a fan base in the range of Elder Scrolls. Boy was that assumption wrong. Which lead to the rest of my post.
I dunno. I think if they approach the game with the mentality of making an Elder Scrolls game, like Firor said they are doing, then they should be able to make a good game. It won't please everyone, but it should please a lot of people.
I hope they can, but from various releases they've made it sounds like they are trying a more shotgun approach in regards to demographics. Like I said it's probably not impossible to thread that needle, but no one else has in over a decade> Heck no ones even been able to make a stable pvp/pve hybrid yet with any ratio not close to a 90/10; good luck to them. Then the whole 3rd party IP is another worry. No one with the possible exception of LOTRO has made a 3rd P IP work. And even LOTR was very selective in the early years about it's demographics. It was considered niche for a loooong time.
Originally posted by GruugI'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people. I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell. ** Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
I dunno. I think if they approach the game with the mentality of making an Elder Scrolls game, like Firor said they are doing, then they should be able to make a good game. It won't please everyone, but it should please a lot of people.
You have it backwards. If they had tried to make a good MMO in the Elderscrolls setting, they could have had a solid niche. It's what they were doing initially, using solid ideas from DAoC to make an MMO. There's a reason DAOC is so many people's favorite game.
But now, due to publishers, they're trying to make a half assed Elderscrolls game.
It is never EVER going to be as good as a singleplayer Elderscrolls game. They've rushed in first person view and made the UI the same, but you will never have the kind of freedom you do in an ES game. It's stupid to try. But playing their biggest weakness up as the selling point of the game, they've already lost. That's what happened with SWTOR. You can't make singleplayer games MMOs.
Originally posted by GruugI'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people. I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell. ** Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
I dunno. I think if they approach the game with the mentality of making an Elder Scrolls game, like Firor said they are doing, then they should be able to make a good game. It won't please everyone, but it should please a lot of people.
You have it backwards. If they had tried to make a good MMO in the Elderscrolls setting, they could have had a solid niche. It's what they were doing initially, using solid ideas from DAoC to make an MMO. There's a reason DAOC is so many people's favorite game.
But now, due to publishers, they're trying to make a half assed Elderscrolls game.
It is never EVER going to be as good as a singleplayer Elderscrolls game. They've rushed in first person view and made the UI the same, but you will never have the kind of freedom you do in an ES game. It's stupid to try. But playing their biggest weakness up as the selling point of the game, they've already lost. That's what happened with SWTOR. You can't make singleplayer games MMOs.
And that's gonna be part of their hurdle. ES crowd might be debatable on the RVR thing. I loved DAOC but they were only chasing a couple hundred k subscribers; not millions. The drawback to trying to pull in everyone from many different play styles straight from launch hasn't worked yet is my point. Not even WoW tried that they grew over time and had some extremely lucky market trends.
Their development or at least their presentation does seem a little random. First it was a third person view, then they added the first person view and the gui, it was firmly in the MMORPG camp, then it wasn't, etc.
You could take this to mean they are a little drunk, or that they are responsive to the people who are likely to play the game. It could go either way.
Personally, I would go with the idea of fitting it into the "Elder Scrolls" slot first, and the "MMO" slot second. But then I'd probably go with personal servers and even a single player option too. Heck, I'm even in support of SWToR being a Lego adaption rather than the job they did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Their development or at least their presentation does seem a little random. First it was a third person view, then they added the first person view and the gui, it was firmly in the MMORPG camp, then it wasn't, etc.
You could take this to mean they are a little drunk, or that they are responsive to the people who are likely to play the game. It could go either way.
Personally, I would go with the idea of fitting it into the "Elder Scrolls" slot first, and the "MMO" slot second. But then I'd probably go with personal servers and even a single player option too. Heck, I'm even in support of SWToR being a Lego adaption rather than the job they did.
The LEGO thing might have worked for them NetDevil was more than happy to drop JG for LEGOs
Originally posted by GruugI'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people. I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell. ** Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
I dunno. I think if they approach the game with the mentality of making an Elder Scrolls game, like Firor said they are doing, then they should be able to make a good game. It won't please everyone, but it should please a lot of people.
You have it backwards. If they had tried to make a good MMO in the Elderscrolls setting, they could have had a solid niche. It's what they were doing initially, using solid ideas from DAoC to make an MMO. There's a reason DAOC is so many people's favorite game.
But now, due to publishers, they're trying to make a half assed Elderscrolls game.
It is never EVER going to be as good as a singleplayer Elderscrolls game. They've rushed in first person view and made the UI the same, but you will never have the kind of freedom you do in an ES game. It's stupid to try. But playing their biggest weakness up as the selling point of the game, they've already lost. That's what happened with SWTOR. You can't make singleplayer games MMOs.
And that's gonna be part of their hurdle. ES crowd might be debatable on the RVR thing. I loved DAOC but they were only chasing a couple hundred k subscribers; not millions. The drawback to trying to pull in everyone from many different play styles straight from launch hasn't worked yet is my point. Not even WoW tried that they grew over time and had some extremely lucky market trends.
Exactly. This game should never have been a mass appeal game. Aiming for millions is how you end up with a dead game and a defunct dev company (SWTOR). For comparison, DAoC was the second most popular MMO of its day. Adjust for how many more people are playing nowadays, and it could be wildly successful. Hell, most publishers would kill for 500k solid subs after 8 years of MMOs barely scraping the 100k mark before dying.
Originally posted by GruugI'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people. I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell. ** Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
I dunno. I think if they approach the game with the mentality of making an Elder Scrolls game, like Firor said they are doing, then they should be able to make a good game. It won't please everyone, but it should please a lot of people.
You have it backwards. If they had tried to make a good MMO in the Elderscrolls setting, they could have had a solid niche. It's what they were doing initially, using solid ideas from DAoC to make an MMO. There's a reason DAOC is so many people's favorite game.
But now, due to publishers, they're trying to make a half assed Elderscrolls game.
It is never EVER going to be as good as a singleplayer Elderscrolls game. They've rushed in first person view and made the UI the same, but you will never have the kind of freedom you do in an ES game. It's stupid to try. But playing their biggest weakness up as the selling point of the game, they've already lost. That's what happened with SWTOR. You can't make singleplayer games MMOs.
And that's gonna be part of their hurdle. ES crowd might be debatable on the RVR thing. I loved DAOC but they were only chasing a couple hundred k subscribers; not millions. The drawback to trying to pull in everyone from many different play styles straight from launch hasn't worked yet is my point. Not even WoW tried that they grew over time and had some extremely lucky market trends.
Exactly. This game should never have been a mass appeal game. Aiming for millions is how you end up with a dead game and a defunct dev company (SWTOR). For comparison, DAoC was the second most popular MMO of its day. Adjust for how many more people are playing nowadays, and it could be wildly successful. Hell, most publishers would kill for 500k solid subs after 8 years of MMOs barely scraping the 100k mark before dying.
Don't get me wrong I love the ES universe too. Any mmo specifically (and narrowly) targeted at either I'd prob have a hard time avoiding hype syndrome. chasing both however; at launch specifically....seen this movie before. lol it's got more re-runs than Stallone.
I still have doubts that the 'mmo' gamer will like the ES combat system.. And I have serious doubts as to the effectiveness of stealth in pvp and the feeling casters will be seriously OP in pvp
I also get the feeling they have no intention of keeping the sub, I feel like its a cash grab and they know within 1 year they will be F2P with mega cash shop
Comments
Except if what I've read about this game Cyrodiil WILL BE the place you get ganked, you may even get ganked while fighting a boss in a dungeon, well what I should say is YOU WILL be ganked, and ganked while fighting a boss.
The whole structure of Cyrodiil for the most of it is exactly like DAoC. Someone in this very thread linked two articles, one explaining DAoCs RvR, the other comparing and constrasting whats been announced for ESO.
Both being very very similar. It also explains why Warhammer and GW2s RvR didn't work out, im paraphrasing here but a big part was the fact that both games end up doing a sort of auto balance after a set period of time. You would be amazed how dedicated people get when they feel connected to a realm or community. RF online had that I remember waking up at odd hours to fight for the core i think it was called to mine for resources. But among the limited content and serious balance issues between the 3 factions it didn't last long for me. (the robotic race was by far the strongest race, their weakness was suppose to be low damage, but high armor but the developers that localized the game decided to give them rings and amulets that boosted their damage when they were not suppose to get them for the sake of balance)
You haven't read too much about this game have you? Because from what I've seen of videos and read from interviews they are not promising what you wrote in the red, not even in the slightest. That just sounds like something you just pulled out of your ...
Read my previous post, I'm not against PvP in certain zones but I'm totally against OWPvP because it brings too many sociopaths into the community. Don't give a shite about Daoc though because most problems ESO has are because of it's Daoc devs who were bragging about 3 faction war game with artificial barriers and started to add Elder Scrolls aspects to the game only after community backlash. So my motto would be less Daoc more ES.
Uh, I think he was talking about the players, not the devs.
And 'Dovekin Dude' and his ilk are an irritation in most MMOs. Though in a modern world game it would make a bit more sense. One of the reasons I kinda want to see what happens in WoD. ESO, not so much.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Got to agree about the attractive nuisance aspect of it. Bad dudes migrate to places where it is easier for them to cause trouble to the most people. They are in small number, but they can have a disproportionate influence on a game, and its retention of paying customers.
And I am pretty sure that some investigative study lead the top brass to decide that the market for ES fans was far greater than DAoC fans.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
It was a nice rebuttal, fun to read. While I don't agree with many of Teala's arguments (like LotRO's f2p switch, or the ADD / locust gamers), I think the conclusion is spot on.
Your "faction lock- some like it, some don't" line is "true", only you missed to add that the "some don't" group is much more numerous than the handful of "some like it" ones... "mixed opinion"... lol.
And to your It's called 50+ and 50++ content line, as a step to avoid TOR's lack of endgame - you do know hopefully, that it's only in the game because Zenimax came to its senses and recognized that the massive uproar among the fans won't just fade away with time, so they had to find some quick solution on Firor's invisible walls... which is a nice indicator of their target group, which is not the couple thousand of ex daoc players, or else they would've not loosen up Firor's Precccious f*cktion lock.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Interesting... advertising? How many TES players have 200+ hour saves? How many on them on console, how many on PC? What makes those play so long on a singleplayer game, morso even with just a single character? Could it be PC users with mods primary? What type of mods? And if not, what does the singleplayer versions have that entertain the singleplayers what TESO has not?
I'm not sure what to think of all the current "Its just like the singleplayer experience + more!" hypemachine Zenimax is feeding right now. It all reads like uneducated marketing lines from ppl not really getting it and actually not even caring that those they try to reach know they getting BS thrown at them.
Recently in a TES4 360+ hours save: Spent some time travelling around in a new landmass area (modded, similar to MMO XPacks), explored some dungeons (MMO=check) and found some cool looking armor set (mmo=check) wich was a bit less cool and far less usable than my current stuff (also possible in MMOs) but that was ok, it looks facy, so I took it to my home (TES standart; MMO=???), took a woodmannequin out of a chest (Mod; MMO=???), placed it in the armory and put the fancy loot on it to display. Also a few of my mino skills got a bit up, the ones not usually part of my choosen class (TES standart; MMO=???) My char has enough gold, so there would have been no reason to go exploring, raiding the dungeon and picking up the armor just to carry it around in my inventory.
You Zenimax Online guys want the TES players that loves to stay like forever in their singleplayer save files? Do not talk, just do. Multifractionwarefare is not what keeps me revisiting the singleplayer game.
Well, after checking out another TESO leak (screens and PvP gameplay), I have to say that the game looks a lot like Skyrim online (with usual ESO clunky combat, which apparently fans don't mind).
That will probably be enough to warrant a solid PC box sales of around 1-1.5 million. Will AvA PvP make people sub for months? I don't think so.
Will monthly sub deter console players from buying this game? Who knows, but most likely yes.
I just don't see this game suceeding long term, unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat.
Me neither, but at least ES fans can hope that it's not only just PR bullsh*t and probably they will indeed focusing more onto the ES part. I mean there were a few changes during the last year...
Like Konkle said in the VideoGamer interview, "But I think it’s safe to say that during the last year, we’ve made some pretty significant pushes to ensuring that there are more Elder Scrolls things included."
Same did Maria in the EuroGamer video yesterday, with the many changes they did due to the direct feedbacks and stuff. My favourite part is when she says they wanna make an Elder Scrolls game, and "If it's not an ES game, then, what's the point?" http://youtu.be/KzmmUAX1qII thank you, though it took a few years to recognise that
So yep, maybe it's only PR, but I still like the fact that they at least realised finally that the ES part of their future customer base is not entirely happy, and adding to that, as Arglebargle wrote, they're not the minority...
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose.
Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people.
I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell.
**
Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
^This. Pretty much sums it up perfectly.
I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
At some point the execution of the idea is going to have an impact. SWToR seems to appeal a lot more to people who like Raiding than people who liked KOTOR. Or maybe it really appealed to people who liked both, but people who like one or the other are lukewarm on the game. Then again, it looks like SWToR sold a few more copies than KOTOR too, so if they were banking on it, they succeeded. I suppose. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans and players than most MMORPGs. Elder Scrolls has a lot more fans than KOTOR apparently has too. Wow. Elder Scrolls has a LOT more fans than the KOTOR games. Appealing to ten million people makes more sense than appealing to two to four million people. I think the biggest problem the game is going to have is getting Elder Scrolls players to accept the idea of a subscription. I mean, if you can play Skyrim for a 100 hours without a sub, why would you think that ESO is going to offer that much more game play for an extra $15 a month? I think that's going to be a tough sell. ** Wow (again). Lego seems like the most popular genre of Star Wars game. SWToR should have been a Lego game. Great. Now that idea is stuck in my head, and I'm sad that SWToR wasn't a Lego game.
I was actually agreeing with you but with one small caveat however. Catering to an established market (the ES crowd) is great. It's only gonna work however if you deliver the same quality experience they are used too. Fail that and you pretty much wasted your time and only added a whole other group to flame you on feedback forums. I can only speculate how this crop of devs/pub will do that but by looking at empirical evidence provided by the industry to date I have low expectations.
I would be more confident of their chances if they were choosing smaller or less demographic subsets. I mean really PVP/PVE/MMoers/SPgamers? /shrugs tell me how it works out.
EDIT every mmo to date that's tried to be everything to everybody right out the gate has ended up being nothing to no-one. Even WoW was targeting smaller demographics at launch. The only two who have been largely successful (post wow)l have been EVE LOTRO. CCP picked a demographic and stayed with the plan, it worked for them, now they are in a position to expand. Turbine did it's own thing with LOTRO and it worked for them till recently.
When I read your post, I had assumed that KOTOR had a fan base in the range of Elder Scrolls. Boy was that assumption wrong. Which lead to the rest of my post.
I dunno. I think if they approach the game with the mentality of making an Elder Scrolls game, like Firor said they are doing, then they should be able to make a good game. It won't please everyone, but it should please a lot of people.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I hope they can, but from various releases they've made it sounds like they are trying a more shotgun approach in regards to demographics. Like I said it's probably not impossible to thread that needle, but no one else has in over a decade> Heck no ones even been able to make a stable pvp/pve hybrid yet with any ratio not close to a 90/10; good luck to them. Then the whole 3rd party IP is another worry. No one with the possible exception of LOTRO has made a 3rd P IP work. And even LOTR was very selective in the early years about it's demographics. It was considered niche for a loooong time.
You have it backwards. If they had tried to make a good MMO in the Elderscrolls setting, they could have had a solid niche. It's what they were doing initially, using solid ideas from DAoC to make an MMO. There's a reason DAOC is so many people's favorite game.
But now, due to publishers, they're trying to make a half assed Elderscrolls game.
It is never EVER going to be as good as a singleplayer Elderscrolls game. They've rushed in first person view and made the UI the same, but you will never have the kind of freedom you do in an ES game. It's stupid to try. But playing their biggest weakness up as the selling point of the game, they've already lost. That's what happened with SWTOR. You can't make singleplayer games MMOs.
And that's gonna be part of their hurdle. ES crowd might be debatable on the RVR thing. I loved DAOC but they were only chasing a couple hundred k subscribers; not millions. The drawback to trying to pull in everyone from many different play styles straight from launch hasn't worked yet is my point. Not even WoW tried that they grew over time and had some extremely lucky market trends.
@People I responded to:
Their development or at least their presentation does seem a little random. First it was a third person view, then they added the first person view and the gui, it was firmly in the MMORPG camp, then it wasn't, etc.
You could take this to mean they are a little drunk, or that they are responsive to the people who are likely to play the game. It could go either way.
Personally, I would go with the idea of fitting it into the "Elder Scrolls" slot first, and the "MMO" slot second. But then I'd probably go with personal servers and even a single player option too. Heck, I'm even in support of SWToR being a Lego adaption rather than the job they did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The LEGO thing might have worked for them
NetDevil was more than happy to drop JG for LEGOs 
Exactly. This game should never have been a mass appeal game. Aiming for millions is how you end up with a dead game and a defunct dev company (SWTOR). For comparison, DAoC was the second most popular MMO of its day. Adjust for how many more people are playing nowadays, and it could be wildly successful. Hell, most publishers would kill for 500k solid subs after 8 years of MMOs barely scraping the 100k mark before dying.
Don't get me wrong I love the ES universe too. Any mmo specifically (and narrowly) targeted at either I'd prob have a hard time avoiding hype syndrome. chasing both however; at launch specifically....seen this movie before. lol it's got more re-runs than Stallone.
I still have doubts that the 'mmo' gamer will like the ES combat system.. And I have serious doubts as to the effectiveness of stealth in pvp and the feeling casters will be seriously OP in pvp
I also get the feeling they have no intention of keeping the sub, I feel like its a cash grab and they know within 1 year they will be F2P with mega cash shop