Good posts. There are a ton of different games out there. If one style isn't doing it for you then play something that does. Stop buying new games just because they're new releases. Start to develop realistic expectations.
I really like the Koster reference. I think it has a lot of truth in it as does the point maplestone makes about vocalizing and projecting blame. It might not be realistic to expect developers to make each game experience entirely new so we get consuming engagement.
Good point, I tried that, have played a wide variety of MMORPG's over the years including not only most major AAA releases, but several indy ones such as Fallen Earth, Xyson, Uncharted Waters and a few I've forgotton.
I've stopped buying new games anymore, as I've seen nothing that would likely interest me and I've returned to playing a circa 2003 version of DAOC because it delivers what I'm looking for.
While it might not be realistic to expect developers to make each game entirely new, it would be nice if we could get just 2 or 3 titles that delivered on that premise. Heck, I'd take one right now.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by THEchad88What are they lacking to really hook us?
You being less experienced.
Koster's theory about what makes games fun: Learning something you did not know.
I think it's a theory that works; we've got a growing number of exceedingly jaded players, all attempting to recapture their past. Can't be done because of several factors==the biggest being "been there, done that".
The mechanics, the gameplay, the pretty graphics--you've seen all of them before, there's nothing new to learn.
Oh no, it can't be me, several million players cry out as one, creating a Disturbance in the Force.
Let's find Something Else To Blame (justification, humanity's defining ability).
It's Instances. It's PVE. It's Themepark. It's Lazy Devs. It's This New Generation. It's Lack of Community. It's eleventy thousand different things that bug me, or several, or all of them.
Could that spell "you're just done with MMOs" any more clearly?
Ennui appears to be an insufficient explanation. Even when it's most likely the simplest one. "I'm not burned out on this activity I've been doing non-stop for a decade plus, oh no."
Originally posted by maplestone
One small quibble: a person blaming an external force is more likely to tell the world about it than when they blame themselves. Reading forums gives a biased view of what's going through the average gamer's mind.
( and this also ends up punishing people who do have a nice balance view of internal and external factors in their unhappiness, causing them to get flamed indescriminately when they do bring up a grievence, making them less comfortable to come forward ... which then only amplifies the effect )
Good posts. There are a ton of different games out there. If one style isn't doing it for you then play something that does. Stop buying new games just because they're new releases. Start to develop realistic expectations.
I really like the Koster reference. I think it has a lot of truth in it as does the point maplestone makes about vocalizing and projecting blame. It might not be realistic to expect developers to make each game experience entirely new so we get consuming engagement.
Some really great posts here!
MMOs, unlike most other games, have 'exploration' as one of the biggest interests of the players, which relates to what is presented above in that players are initially taken in by what is visually new at first and then quickly disappointed at the realization that mechanically it is the same as what they experienced before.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If I'm guilty of anything, it's not being willing to adapt and learn to enjoy modern MMOs as they are designed and presented today, and for that I make no apology.
It really isn't me, it's definitely them.
No one's accusing you (or anyone) of anything. But a whole enormous giant big lot of people are struggling to deal with their own ennui, without a doubt. If the Genre is to blame, then ok, it is.
Regardless of where the fault is, once you're done, you're done.
Now some people come back after a long break and find it enjoyable again, others just deal with finding an adaptation sufficiently different to enjoy in a different way (the Sandbox Rally Effect). Others eventually find that it's the people that made the experience enjoyable, not the mechanics. I can dive into roleplay in any format. I can diddle away the time in an ARPG (sufficiently leisure-devouring, and still MMO-like). There's always never-ending, ceaseless QQ, too. Hell, buying and trying every new release isn't even that expensive, even if you can only expect them to carry you another couple of months.
We all find our own ways to deal.
If is akin to evolution to my thinking; once you've bred, evolution has no code for you. And so, post-breeding-age, your body just gradually breaks down.
We did our bit; paid (and paved) the way. If the genre doesn't recapture us, whether due to some fault of itself, or just human nature...well, there's always new breeders growing up right behind. What the genre becomes, in the future, is in their hands.
I came up through MUDs. Philosophically, I've been here before.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Stop buying new games just because they're new releases.
The problem here is addiction. People that just finished playing new mmo are like junkies with withdrawal symptoms. They need to get the new stuff, so they will pay any money and buy any cr*p that is thrown at them. And gaming companies work just like a one big drug cartel. You can lower the quality, and costs, addicted people won't care, sad but true.
Originally posted by maplestone
One small quibble: a person blaming an external force is more likely to tell the world about it than when they blame themselves. Reading forums gives a biased view of what's going through the average gamer's mind.
( and this also ends up punishing people who do have a nice balance view of internal and external factors in their unhappiness, causing them to get flamed indescriminately when they do bring up a grievence, making them less comfortable to come forward ... which then only amplifies the effect )
Very true. People only get vocal, when they feel that they were hurt by some external force, it doesn't mean that everybody else thinks the same. On the contrary, it shows that they belong to minority.
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by THEchad88
What are they lacking to really hook us?
You being less experienced.
Koster's theory about what makes games fun: Learning something you did not know.
I think it's a theory that works; we've got a growing number of exceedingly jaded players, all attempting to recapture their past. Can't be done because of several factors==the biggest being "been there, done that".
Very nice post. I agree completely. People fail to understand that.
There is this method now, very popular in industry. It uses the fact, that mmo players are like junkies. You do everything in your power to gather as much money as you possibly can in the release of the game and in the first months. They know players need their drug, and they know that players will hate it month later no matter how good it is, so they hype. No need to care about quality, it is only about the start, what happens after is just a bonus, most of the cash comes from the start. Who's fault is it? Maybe it is wrong to use addiction for profit, but no one forced you to take drug in the first place :P
Koster's theory about what makes games fun: Learning something you did not know.
I think it's a theory that works; we've got a growing number of exceedingly jaded players, all attempting to recapture their past. Can't be done because of several factors==the biggest being "been there, done that".
The mechanics, the gameplay, the pretty graphics--you've seen all of them before, there's nothing new to learn.
Oh no, it can't be me, several million players cry out as one, creating a Disturbance in the Force.
Let's find Something Else To Blame (justification, humanity's defining ability).
It's Instances. It's PVE. It's Themepark. It's Lazy Devs. It's This New Generation. It's Lack of Community. It's eleventy thousand different things that bug me, or several, or all of them.
Could that spell "you're just done with MMOs" any more clearly?
Ennui appears to be an insufficient explanation. Even when it's most likely the simplest one. "I'm not burned out on this activity I've been doing non-stop for a decade plus, oh no."
I agree with all you say but I think this highlights the OP's original question. Where are the new fresh idea's to get us old school players re-invested in the genre? We do have a been there done that mentality and with all the new "cutting edge OMG Amazing" tech coming out companies are simply putting out what seems to be more of the same old same old with new graphics.
I also agree with others about the fact that the broad spectrum of players MMO's are trying to hit being to much. Sometimes you have to just pick a demographic/play style and go for it. Look at the FPS games out there that succeed with every release. They do one thing extremely well and satisfy the players they aim for. Well done.
I also think that the developers are missing the mark on the leveling process. Some have complained that there is so much invested into the leveling and the end game is crap and I disagree. I never logged 8 hours a day in any game but not once in 15 years of playing MMO's have I ever hit max level in 30 days until game after game started offering XP boosts, this boost, that boost etc. My first lvl 60 in Vanilla WoW took me almost a year of casual, a few nights a week gaming. It was a recurring joke on the WoW forums back then that getting from lvl 52 to lvl 60 was going to take you just as long as lvl 1 to lvl 52 and it was true.
To me it was also awesome. The content was there and you had to do it in order to hit max level unless you had the friends to run dungeons with constantly. These days every MMO is so simplified and streamlined that even solo you can be at the end game in a month. To me, this is the main detractor of MMO's released and invalidates the idea that all of the focus is on leveling. They have lost the art of telling a story you want to enjoy and savor lvl by lvl. Once the focus for the player base became all End Game End Game and the players raced to get there the genre was doomed.
*EDIT* - Let me amend this and also say it is our fault as players too. I have a few friends that skip dialogue during lvling and simply click where they have to, skip what is offered and then look at their map, go kill what they need to and com back to turn it in. We as players are ruining our own enjoyment.
Thank you awwjwah, you basically said what I was going to respond with in your first two sentences.
So a lot of feedback seems to be in agreement around we as people not having something new to learn. Which is why these games are becoming uninteresting to us.
So developers should listen up and hear our community cries that we want to learn something new. LEARN something new. Take a moment. Think about that and what it implies....
Another poster hit on a post of instant gratification. Yes I think it is all over the place. But i'll say that it is in some cases hurting our end user experience at the risk of short term pleasing us.
so devs lets find a way to gratify without it having to be instant. The slow gradual momentous build up. I always felt that was what end game content was supposed to be at any rate. Maybe at that point it is all momentous builds which eventually have to collapse?
some really great posts here, it is definitely bringing some clarity to my thoughts on it and hopefully a lot of our community as well.
Do you feel like you're finding a more streamlined idea of what you are looking for in a new MMORPG?
Koster's theory about what makes games fun: Learning something you did not know.
I think it's a theory that works; we've got a growing number of exceedingly jaded players, all attempting to recapture their past. Can't be done because of several factors==the biggest being "been there, done that".
The mechanics, the gameplay, the pretty graphics--you've seen all of them before, there's nothing new to learn.
Oh no, it can't be me, several million players cry out as one, creating a Disturbance in the Force.
Let's find Something Else To Blame (justification, humanity's defining ability).
It's Instances. It's PVE. It's Themepark. It's Lazy Devs. It's This New Generation. It's Lack of Community. It's eleventy thousand different things that bug me, or several, or all of them.
Could that spell "you're just done with MMOs" any more clearly?
Ennui appears to be an insufficient explanation. Even when it's most likely the simplest one. "I'm not burned out on this activity I've been doing non-stop for a decade plus, oh no."
I agree with all you say but I think this highlights the OP's original question. Where are the new fresh idea's to get us old school players re-invested in the genre? We do have a been there done that mentality and with all the new "cutting edge OMG Amazing" tech coming out companies are simply putting out what seems to be more of the same old same old with new graphics.
I also agree with others about the fact that the broad spectrum of players MMO's are trying to hit being to much. Sometimes you have to just pick a demographic/play style and go for it. Look at the FPS games out there that succeed with every release. They do one thing extremely well and satisfy the players they aim for. Well done.
I also think that the developers are missing the mark on the leveling process. Some have complained that there is so much invested into the leveling and the end game is crap and I disagree. I never logged 8 hours a day in any game but not once in 15 years of playing MMO's have I ever hit max level in 30 days until game after game started offering XP boosts, this boost, that boost etc. My first lvl 60 in Vanilla WoW took me almost a year of casual, a few nights a week gaming. It was a recurring joke on the WoW forums back then that getting from lvl 52 to lvl 60 was going to take you just as long as lvl 1 to lvl 52 and it was true.
To me it was also awesome. The content was there and you had to do it in order to hit max level unless you had the friends to run dungeons with constantly. These days every MMO is so simplified and streamlined that even solo you can be at the end game in a month. To me, this is the main detractor of MMO's released and invalidates the idea that all of the focus is on leveling. They have lost the art of telling a story you want to enjoy and savor lvl by lvl. Once the focus for the player base became all End Game End Game and the players raced to get there the genre was doomed.
*EDIT* - Let me amend this and also say it is our fault as players too. I have a few friends that skip dialogue during lvling and simply click where they have to, skip what is offered and then look at their map, go kill what they need to and com back to turn it in. We as players are ruining our own enjoyment.
Thank you awwjwah, you basically said what I was going to respond with in your first two sentences.
So a lot of feedback seems to be in agreement around we as people not having something new to learn. Which is why these games are becoming uninteresting to us.
So developers should listen up and hear our community cries that we want to learn something new. LEARN something new. Take a moment. Think about that and what it implies....
Another poster hit on a post of instant gratification. Yes I think it is all over the place. But i'll say that it is in some cases hurting our end user experience at the risk of short term pleasing us.
so devs lets find a way to gratify without it having to be instant. The slow gradual momentous build up. I always felt that was what end game content was supposed to be at any rate. Maybe at that point it is all momentous builds which eventually have to collapse?
some really great posts here, it is definitely bringing some clarity to my thoughts on it and hopefully a lot of our community as well.
Do you feel like you're finding a more streamlined idea of what you are looking for in a new MMORPG?
Ive had a fairly stream lined outlook for some time now
3rd party IP wait 6mo and see
pvp/pve hybrid avoid like the plague (I prefer either or)
The more demographics it tries to appeal to the less I pay attention.
Originally posted by Kyleran This pattern has been consistent with every new MMORPG that has launched after WOW.
Prior to this most MMOS would start a bit slower, build up over a year or two, level off for a time and then slowly decline until the Devs decided to do some ill conceived design change to kill their game off.
It's the way they are all designed, too closely along the standard theme park model, inevitably being compared to WOW, and falling hopelessly short in most every case.
Until someone comes along and delivers a significantly different playing experience that players really like and encourages them to stick around, we are not likely to see this pattern change any time soon.
But then again, I am not sure the largest portion of the player market wants this to change, they seem to prefer games they can complete in a month or so, so they can move on to the next one.
What are you on about? Darkfall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth, Xsyon... There have been tons of games launched after WoW which weren't nowhere close to being themepark but failed still.
Games don't fail because of theme park design, they fail because they're bad games.
The ones failed due to crapped Dev team, Well DF, Mortal and Xsyon did the dev team took forever to put out content which was understandable for such a small team but peopel dont wanna wait months for new thing. DF the main complaint was the dev took forever to release new patches were always delayed and so on. If it was a tripple A company things may have been different in that department
So developers should listen up and hear our community cries that we want to learn something new. LEARN something new. Take a moment. Think about that and what it implies....
Clearly, they are. Branching out into a variety of "mmo variants, the ARPGs, LoL, the Minecrafts, the phone games, designing for console and/or for tablet...
A lot of what they're creating really doesn't fit the "traditional mmo" picture, which means a) tons of grumbling and b) evolving.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by THEchad88So developers should listen up and hear our community cries that we want to learn something new. LEARN something new. Take a moment. Think about that and what it implies....
Clearly, they are. Branching out into a variety of "mmo variants, the ARPGs, LoL, the Minecrafts, the phone games, designing for console and/or for tablet...
A lot of what they're creating really doesn't fit the "traditional mmo" picture, which means a) tons of grumbling and b) evolving.
To say gamers are polarized would be an understatement.
Originally posted by THEchad88So developers should listen up and hear our community cries that we want to learn something new. LEARN something new. Take a moment. Think about that and what it implies....
Clearly, they are. Branching out into a variety of "mmo variants, the ARPGs, LoL, the Minecrafts, the phone games, designing for console and/or for tablet...
A lot of what they're creating really doesn't fit the "traditional mmo" picture, which means a) tons of grumbling and b) evolving.
To say gamers are polarized would be an understatement.
might be why aiming for all of em in one game hasn't worked ya think
Originally posted by Foomerang To say gamers are polarized would be an understatement.
Ok. Nothing new about that, either.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
So developers should listen up and hear our community cries that we want to learn something new. LEARN something new. Take a moment. Think about that and what it implies....
Clearly, they are. Branching out into a variety of "mmo variants, the ARPGs, LoL, the Minecrafts, the phone games, designing for console and/or for tablet...
A lot of what they're creating really doesn't fit the "traditional mmo" picture, which means a) tons of grumbling and b) evolving.
Agreed. They are evolving but some of those evolutions "seem" to be stepping backwards.
Then again maybe I am just aging past the target point for making a game. I'm 39, married, 2 kids, full time job, and I like the micro-transaction pay style because I don't have hours per week to dedicate to a game I am paying monthly for. When a week or two passes by and you can't play you start to question what that money is being spent on. Server storage?
At the same notion I'm 39, married, 2 kids, full time job and the disposable cash to buy a game that I will play when I have the time too. When I play that game I wold like a story that engages me, options that allow me to have a flexible play style and most of all the ability to meander my way through the world.
In the past four months I have played more than 6 different MMO's that were free to play, free to DL and I tried and discarded all of them because in all of them it was start here, end here, no variation. Every character, every class, same route through the world.
Everquest was often bashed for providing no direction to the players which is why it's appeal did not hit the levels that WoW did. WoW at first launch gave you a path but offered many forks in the road. (I personally lvled 2 alliance and 2 horde toons to 60 without duplicating areas in each faction) Now in MMO's it's a ring in the nose with a rope pulling us along the same path.
Originally posted by THEchad88 What are they lacking to really hook us?
They are lacking any semblance of a challenge. The human brain quickly tires of new flashes and beeps; it's the puzzles and comraderly that retain players. Letting players get max level in a month or two is also a problem from my perspective. And creating solo-centric games leaves little incentive for making friends.
The other major problem is that players expect high tech graphics, so everything done in today's MMO takes 5x longer than back in 2000. So either the world becomes a facade, or there isn't much content.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
completely agree with the either or argument. MMO's are just too big! They try to pack in PVE, PVP, Crafting, Dungeons, Raids, Open PvP areas, and a whole crap load of other system. They just water all the systems down trying to please everyone. Give the Hard Core raiders a game that will kick their ass. Give the RvR's a game that is designed from start to finish FOR RvR.
Give the Horror lovers a full-loot post-apocolypic frag fest where your forced to eat your own limbs when you run out of food....
As the number of MMOers rise the wants of the players broaden. Its not possible to please them all in one package anymore. Get more developers to make more small focused games, that way they can really NAIL it for their core audience.
If you want some more ranting on the topic by me I wrote a MMORPG blog today on this exact topic.
If is akin to evolution to my thinking; once you've bred, evolution has no code for you. And so, post-breeding-age, your body just gradually breaks down.
We did our bit; paid (and paved) the way. If the genre doesn't recapture us, whether due to some fault of itself, or just human nature...well, there's always new breeders growing up right behind. What the genre becomes, in the future, is in their hands.
I came up through MUDs. Philosophically, I've been here before.
I don't think you understand evolution very well. There is certainly post-breeding age genetic code. It is the whole part about ensuring your off-spring survives long enough to breed themselves. If your offspring die it is just as bad as not breeding at all. That is why nature keeps us around for quite a bit longer after breeding age is over. If you have your last child in your 30s the genetics will try to keep you around around for another 20 years. Most non-social animals don't have a slowly dying phase like humans do. Be thankful you are not a salmon which dies just a few days after in breeds. Elephants and dolphins are longer lived because they need to care for their offspring.
MMOs evolution should have to work the same way. An MMO should last long enough to produce a sequel. That normally takes 5 or 6 year so that is how long a well made MMO would last. These MMOs that die after 6 months to year are on a fast track to extinction.
Originally posted by Kyleran This pattern has been consistent with every new MMORPG that has launched after WOW.
But then again, I am not sure the largest portion of the player market wants this to change, they seem to prefer games they can complete in a month or so, so they can move on to the next one.
this is what concerns me the most.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
This has been the story of MMOs since the early 00's, you are just seeing an acceleration of the process in the last couple of years. Bringing out a great MMO is not easy, bringing out plenty of poor clones is.
When it comes to MMOs "failing" you have to reference it to success. Any MMO which secures its return on investment with a big profit can be labelled a success. In comparison to solo games, still pulling in money after a few years is an amazing feat. When it comes to other MMOs they get compared to WoW, a hard act to follow.
So developers should listen up and hear our community cries that we want to learn something new. LEARN something new. Take a moment. Think about that and what it implies....
Clearly, they are. Branching out into a variety of "mmo variants, the ARPGs, LoL, the Minecrafts, the phone games, designing for console and/or for tablet...
A lot of what they're creating really doesn't fit the "traditional mmo" picture, which means a) tons of grumbling and b) evolving.
Agreed. They are evolving but some of those evolutions "seem" to be stepping backwards.
Then again maybe I am just aging past the target point for making a game. I'm 39, married, 2 kids, full time job, and I like the micro-transaction pay style because I don't have hours per week to dedicate to a game I am paying monthly for. When a week or two passes by and you can't play you start to question what that money is being spent on. Server storage?
At the same notion I'm 39, married, 2 kids, full time job and the disposable cash to buy a game that I will play when I have the time too. When I play that game I wold like a story that engages me, options that allow me to have a flexible play style and most of all the ability to meander my way through the world.
In the past four months I have played more than 6 different MMO's that were free to play, free to DL and I tried and discarded all of them because in all of them it was start here, end here, no variation. Every character, every class, same route through the world.
Everquest was often bashed for providing no direction to the players which is why it's appeal did not hit the levels that WoW did. WoW at first launch gave you a path but offered many forks in the road. (I personally lvled 2 alliance and 2 horde toons to 60 without duplicating areas in each faction) Now in MMO's it's a ring in the nose with a rope pulling us along the same path.
Your view of the market seems to be within the EQ/WOW variants and not how it has evolved beyond that, which is what Icewhite is talking about.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I suffer from gamers jadedness and burnout. But the MMORPG genre is unique in that almost all major releases have followed a trend in purpose, presentation and type. Purpose is to level achievements, quest hubs are the presentation and themepark is the type. With each generation of game it gets more streamlined to accomplish leveling exclusively.
Ever ask how a game like EQ or UO with little to no direction and npc grinding seemed like there was more to do? You generally did have more freedom to explore or level or to create your own adventure. You weren't neatly shuffled down corridors to level doing the same 7 reskinned quest over and over for the past 9 years with no choice. This where my burnout comes from.
"The other major problem is that players expect high tech graphics, so everything done in today's MMO takes 5x longer than back in 2000. So either the world becomes a facade, or there isn't much content "
I don't think is true at all. Once the game creates its engine - its a lot easier to add content then it used to be. Look at how much more content Guild Wars 2 was able to create as compared to WoW with literally 1/10 of the budget. GW2 brings in like 20 million a quarter - WoW brings in 200 million plus.
There really isn't any shortage of content in modern MMO'S. The real problem is that the content has been made faceroll so people burn through it. When content is difficult - the players are given an 'alternative path' to get the same rewards with less effort. They will always choose that path..
This is why Blizzards 'multi-difficulty' plan has been an abject failure. And the rest of the industry that follows it has been suffering.
"The other major problem is that players expect high tech graphics, so everything done in today's MMO takes 5x longer than back in 2000. So either the world becomes a facade, or there isn't much content "
I don't think is true at all. Once the game creates its engine - its a lot easier to add content then it used to be. Look at how much more content Guild Wars 2 was able to create as compared to WoW with literally 1/10 of the budget. GW2 brings in like 20 million a quarter - WoW brings in 200 million plus.
There really isn't any shortage of content in modern MMO'S. The real problem is that the content has been made faceroll so people burn through it. When content is difficult - the players are given an 'alternative path' to get the same rewards with less effort. They will always choose that path..
This is why Blizzards 'multi-difficulty' plan has been an abject failure. And the rest of the industry that follows it has been suffering.
The graphics problem has become the bane of MMOs. The easymode path we now have reflects the easier content of solo player gaming. And unfortunately wherever solo games go MMOs must follow.
Welcome to the forums btw. Don't let a bad PUG or post get you down!
"The other major problem is that players expect high tech graphics, so everything done in today's MMO takes 5x longer than back in 2000. So either the world becomes a facade, or there isn't much content "
I don't think is true at all. Once the game creates its engine - its a lot easier to add content then it used to be. Look at how much more content Guild Wars 2 was able to create as compared to WoW with literally 1/10 of the budget. GW2 brings in like 20 million a quarter - WoW brings in 200 million plus.
There really isn't any shortage of content in modern MMO'S. The real problem is that the content has been made faceroll so people burn through it. When content is difficult - the players are given an 'alternative path' to get the same rewards with less effort. They will always choose that path..
This is why Blizzards 'multi-difficulty' plan has been an abject failure. And the rest of the industry that follows it has been suffering.
The graphics problem has become the bane of MMOs. The easymode path we now have reflects the easier content of solo player gaming. And unfortunately wherever solo games go MMOs must follow.
Welcome to the forums btw. Don't let a bad PUG or post get you down!
sorry can't agree mmos "follow" SP's successful Sp's pick a demographic and push. MMo's aim for "everybody" and if lucky end up with enough to keep the servers live.
The graphics problem has become the bane of MMOs. The easymode path we now have reflects the easier content of solo player gaming. And unfortunately wherever solo games go MMOs must follow.
Welcome to the forums btw. Don't let a bad PUG or post get you down!
The graphics issue adds to the start up costs. For a new AAA MMO its between 60 - 100 million dollars to get going. But I don't think that is the bane of MMOs - any more then its the bane of shooters, sports games etc. Gamers want nice graphics - and they vote with their dollar and get them, right?
What's hurting MMOs is actually more subtle, IMHO. I can't take all the credit for seeing this - I had similar ideas but was reading MMO and a player their crystalized it more..
Humans want to pick the fastest easiest path to character advancement. This is true even if the more difficult path is more exciting. This has a lot to do with divided nature of the human mind. Another example would be a manual transmission vs. an automatic with regards to cars. Manuals are hands down more enjoyable if you get the hang of it. But most people will choose automatic because its easier and they just want to get some place. Cars that have 'paddle shifters' even when they are fast - don't get used because the car generally does a pretty good job of shifting for you.
Anyway this 'need' of human beings has been taken up by the manufacturers of MMOs. So they release "quality of life' enhancements. You don't need to run or walk to places - you can beam. You don't need to socialize - the players are found for you. You don't need to use teamwork - just do your own thing and the mob will die. You don't have to worry about trains - mobs won't run. You don't need to worry about your build - your basic build is pre-decided. You don't need to worry about inventory space - you can sell your stuff at the AH anytime. This list goes on and on and on..
Now all of this sounds good right? Damn - yeah good for the casuals right? Yeah sure. But it does two things..
1) It eliminates forced social interaction
2) It allows player to get to the 'game' part of the game a whole lot quicker.
Again THAT sounds good right? But its not for developers. The major issue is that the grind itself is not very interesting. People on forums like this complain bout grinding. But grinding is NOT BAD. Bad grinding IS bad. Tetris is a game that's nothing but grind. Mindsweeper is nothing but grind. Bejeweled/Candy Crush is nothing but grind..
But the 'grind' part of most MMOs wasn't very good. Its just hit some buttons.. The very worst MMOS have mechanics were the grind is just hit any buttons in any order while being reasonable close to any mob. This 'mini-game' so to speak sucks. So when you eliminate all the 'roadblocks' and people get to experience the game. They are like WTF - this sucks. I am outta here.
Some level of forced interaction and some carefully chosen "quality of life" problems are ESSENTIAL for your games longevity. You also want as much 'sandbox' as your gamers can stomach because this will enhance the longevity of your game. Back when Blizzard had real open world PvP people would spend hours 'defending' their town - even if they didn't particularly life PvP. That very modest 'sandbox' saves developers effort..
But its not just the grind - its the forced social interaction. World of Warcraft has successfully removed all of the benefits of social interaction in that game. You can go from 1 to full raid geared without knowing anyone or making friends with anyone. You don't need anyone..
I know yes they still have 'real' raiding. But from a mental standpoint getting gear that's 90% as good with no social interaction is much easier. Almost everyone is going to choose that path - and they have. This saves a ton of time for the gamer. They don't play because their friends need them. They don't need friends.
It's a fascinating picture into human nature. Giving players what they want is really the road to failure. The WoW business model is becoming unsustainable. They players blow through the easy content they wanted - and then just quit. Because the content is easier - even the ones that don't blow through it and quit early don't feel they are missing out on anything because faceroll content makes their achievements 'feel' worthless.
I love WoW for sticking to their guns though. It will be a lesson to the industry as we watch them slip to around half their before LFD user base of 12 million next quarter. There are no shortcuts. Making a game is hard. Blizzard thought well easy was good - easier will be better. They thought well less social is good - no socialization is better. Again it wasn't true.
Comments
Good point, I tried that, have played a wide variety of MMORPG's over the years including not only most major AAA releases, but several indy ones such as Fallen Earth, Xyson, Uncharted Waters and a few I've forgotton.
I've stopped buying new games anymore, as I've seen nothing that would likely interest me and I've returned to playing a circa 2003 version of DAOC because it delivers what I'm looking for.
While it might not be realistic to expect developers to make each game entirely new, it would be nice if we could get just 2 or 3 titles that delivered on that premise. Heck, I'd take one right now.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some really great posts here!
MMOs, unlike most other games, have 'exploration' as one of the biggest interests of the players, which relates to what is presented above in that players are initially taken in by what is visually new at first and then quickly disappointed at the realization that mechanically it is the same as what they experienced before.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No one's accusing you (or anyone) of anything. But a whole enormous giant big lot of people are struggling to deal with their own ennui, without a doubt. If the Genre is to blame, then ok, it is.
Regardless of where the fault is, once you're done, you're done.
Now some people come back after a long break and find it enjoyable again, others just deal with finding an adaptation sufficiently different to enjoy in a different way (the Sandbox Rally Effect). Others eventually find that it's the people that made the experience enjoyable, not the mechanics. I can dive into roleplay in any format. I can diddle away the time in an ARPG (sufficiently leisure-devouring, and still MMO-like). There's always never-ending, ceaseless QQ, too. Hell, buying and trying every new release isn't even that expensive, even if you can only expect them to carry you another couple of months.
We all find our own ways to deal.
If is akin to evolution to my thinking; once you've bred, evolution has no code for you. And so, post-breeding-age, your body just gradually breaks down.
We did our bit; paid (and paved) the way. If the genre doesn't recapture us, whether due to some fault of itself, or just human nature...well, there's always new breeders growing up right behind. What the genre becomes, in the future, is in their hands.
I came up through MUDs. Philosophically, I've been here before.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The problem here is addiction. People that just finished playing new mmo are like junkies with withdrawal symptoms. They need to get the new stuff, so they will pay any money and buy any cr*p that is thrown at them. And gaming companies work just like a one big drug cartel. You can lower the quality, and costs, addicted people won't care, sad but true.
Very true. People only get vocal, when they feel that they were hurt by some external force, it doesn't mean that everybody else thinks the same. On the contrary, it shows that they belong to minority.
Very nice post. I agree completely. People fail to understand that.
There is this method now, very popular in industry. It uses the fact, that mmo players are like junkies. You do everything in your power to gather as much money as you possibly can in the release of the game and in the first months. They know players need their drug, and they know that players will hate it month later no matter how good it is, so they hype. No need to care about quality, it is only about the start, what happens after is just a bonus, most of the cash comes from the start. Who's fault is it? Maybe it is wrong to use addiction for profit, but no one forced you to take drug in the first place :P
Thank you awwjwah, you basically said what I was going to respond with in your first two sentences.
So a lot of feedback seems to be in agreement around we as people not having something new to learn. Which is why these games are becoming uninteresting to us.
So developers should listen up and hear our community cries that we want to learn something new. LEARN something new. Take a moment. Think about that and what it implies....
Another poster hit on a post of instant gratification. Yes I think it is all over the place. But i'll say that it is in some cases hurting our end user experience at the risk of short term pleasing us.
so devs lets find a way to gratify without it having to be instant. The slow gradual momentous build up. I always felt that was what end game content was supposed to be at any rate. Maybe at that point it is all momentous builds which eventually have to collapse?
some really great posts here, it is definitely bringing some clarity to my thoughts on it and hopefully a lot of our community as well.
Do you feel like you're finding a more streamlined idea of what you are looking for in a new MMORPG?
3rd party IP wait 6mo and see
pvp/pve hybrid avoid like the plague (I prefer either or)
The more demographics it tries to appeal to the less I pay attention.
The ones failed due to crapped Dev team, Well DF, Mortal and Xsyon did the dev team took forever to put out content which was understandable for such a small team but peopel dont wanna wait months for new thing. DF the main complaint was the dev took forever to release new patches were always delayed and so on. If it was a tripple A company things may have been different in that department
Clearly, they are. Branching out into a variety of "mmo variants, the ARPGs, LoL, the Minecrafts, the phone games, designing for console and/or for tablet...
A lot of what they're creating really doesn't fit the "traditional mmo" picture, which means a) tons of grumbling and b) evolving.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
A lot of what they're creating really doesn't fit the "traditional mmo" picture, which means a) tons of grumbling and b) evolving.
To say gamers are polarized would be an understatement.
might be why aiming for all of em in one game hasn't worked ya think
Ok. Nothing new about that, either.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Agreed. They are evolving but some of those evolutions "seem" to be stepping backwards.
Then again maybe I am just aging past the target point for making a game. I'm 39, married, 2 kids, full time job, and I like the micro-transaction pay style because I don't have hours per week to dedicate to a game I am paying monthly for. When a week or two passes by and you can't play you start to question what that money is being spent on. Server storage?
At the same notion I'm 39, married, 2 kids, full time job and the disposable cash to buy a game that I will play when I have the time too. When I play that game I wold like a story that engages me, options that allow me to have a flexible play style and most of all the ability to meander my way through the world.
In the past four months I have played more than 6 different MMO's that were free to play, free to DL and I tried and discarded all of them because in all of them it was start here, end here, no variation. Every character, every class, same route through the world.
Everquest was often bashed for providing no direction to the players which is why it's appeal did not hit the levels that WoW did. WoW at first launch gave you a path but offered many forks in the road. (I personally lvled 2 alliance and 2 horde toons to 60 without duplicating areas in each faction) Now in MMO's it's a ring in the nose with a rope pulling us along the same path.
nor that
They are lacking any semblance of a challenge. The human brain quickly tires of new flashes and beeps; it's the puzzles and comraderly that retain players. Letting players get max level in a month or two is also a problem from my perspective. And creating solo-centric games leaves little incentive for making friends.
The other major problem is that players expect high tech graphics, so everything done in today's MMO takes 5x longer than back in 2000. So either the world becomes a facade, or there isn't much content.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
completely agree with the either or argument. MMO's are just too big! They try to pack in PVE, PVP, Crafting, Dungeons, Raids, Open PvP areas, and a whole crap load of other system. They just water all the systems down trying to please everyone. Give the Hard Core raiders a game that will kick their ass. Give the RvR's a game that is designed from start to finish FOR RvR.
Give the Horror lovers a full-loot post-apocolypic frag fest where your forced to eat your own limbs when you run out of food....
As the number of MMOers rise the wants of the players broaden. Its not possible to please them all in one package anymore. Get more developers to make more small focused games, that way they can really NAIL it for their core audience.
If you want some more ranting on the topic by me I wrote a MMORPG blog today on this exact topic.
I don't think you understand evolution very well. There is certainly post-breeding age genetic code. It is the whole part about ensuring your off-spring survives long enough to breed themselves. If your offspring die it is just as bad as not breeding at all. That is why nature keeps us around for quite a bit longer after breeding age is over. If you have your last child in your 30s the genetics will try to keep you around around for another 20 years. Most non-social animals don't have a slowly dying phase like humans do. Be thankful you are not a salmon which dies just a few days after in breeds. Elephants and dolphins are longer lived because they need to care for their offspring.
MMOs evolution should have to work the same way. An MMO should last long enough to produce a sequel. That normally takes 5 or 6 year so that is how long a well made MMO would last. These MMOs that die after 6 months to year are on a fast track to extinction.
this is what concerns me the most.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
After thought careful , I don't think they fail MMOs.
I mean they make those game with contents only last for 2 months or 6 ,
so of course it life circle end after 2 or 6 months.
More like they make single player game disguise as MMO to protect they copyright without using DRM word.
They aim for short income , not long last game like old day . And i think they success.
I think OP not wrong when said they are falling stars , nowadays MMO games are falling stars from the start.
This has been the story of MMOs since the early 00's, you are just seeing an acceleration of the process in the last couple of years. Bringing out a great MMO is not easy, bringing out plenty of poor clones is.
When it comes to MMOs "failing" you have to reference it to success. Any MMO which secures its return on investment with a big profit can be labelled a success. In comparison to solo games, still pulling in money after a few years is an amazing feat. When it comes to other MMOs they get compared to WoW, a hard act to follow.
Your view of the market seems to be within the EQ/WOW variants and not how it has evolved beyond that, which is what Icewhite is talking about.
ex: PBBGs, MOBAs, MMORTS/FPS, Online TCGs, Action RPGs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ever ask how a game like EQ or UO with little to no direction and npc grinding seemed like there was more to do? You generally did have more freedom to explore or level or to create your own adventure. You weren't neatly shuffled down corridors to level doing the same 7 reskinned quest over and over for the past 9 years with no choice. This where my burnout comes from.
"The other major problem is that players expect high tech graphics, so everything done in today's MMO takes 5x longer than back in 2000. So either the world becomes a facade, or there isn't much content "
I don't think is true at all. Once the game creates its engine - its a lot easier to add content then it used to be. Look at how much more content Guild Wars 2 was able to create as compared to WoW with literally 1/10 of the budget. GW2 brings in like 20 million a quarter - WoW brings in 200 million plus.
There really isn't any shortage of content in modern MMO'S. The real problem is that the content has been made faceroll so people burn through it. When content is difficult - the players are given an 'alternative path' to get the same rewards with less effort. They will always choose that path..
This is why Blizzards 'multi-difficulty' plan has been an abject failure. And the rest of the industry that follows it has been suffering.
The graphics problem has become the bane of MMOs. The easymode path we now have reflects the easier content of solo player gaming. And unfortunately wherever solo games go MMOs must follow.
Welcome to the forums btw. Don't let a bad PUG or post get you down!
sorry can't agree mmos "follow" SP's successful Sp's pick a demographic and push. MMo's aim for "everybody" and if lucky end up with enough to keep the servers live.
The graphics issue adds to the start up costs. For a new AAA MMO its between 60 - 100 million dollars to get going. But I don't think that is the bane of MMOs - any more then its the bane of shooters, sports games etc. Gamers want nice graphics - and they vote with their dollar and get them, right?
What's hurting MMOs is actually more subtle, IMHO. I can't take all the credit for seeing this - I had similar ideas but was reading MMO and a player their crystalized it more..
Humans want to pick the fastest easiest path to character advancement. This is true even if the more difficult path is more exciting. This has a lot to do with divided nature of the human mind. Another example would be a manual transmission vs. an automatic with regards to cars. Manuals are hands down more enjoyable if you get the hang of it. But most people will choose automatic because its easier and they just want to get some place. Cars that have 'paddle shifters' even when they are fast - don't get used because the car generally does a pretty good job of shifting for you.
Anyway this 'need' of human beings has been taken up by the manufacturers of MMOs. So they release "quality of life' enhancements. You don't need to run or walk to places - you can beam. You don't need to socialize - the players are found for you. You don't need to use teamwork - just do your own thing and the mob will die. You don't have to worry about trains - mobs won't run. You don't need to worry about your build - your basic build is pre-decided. You don't need to worry about inventory space - you can sell your stuff at the AH anytime. This list goes on and on and on..
Now all of this sounds good right? Damn - yeah good for the casuals right? Yeah sure. But it does two things..
1) It eliminates forced social interaction
2) It allows player to get to the 'game' part of the game a whole lot quicker.
Again THAT sounds good right? But its not for developers. The major issue is that the grind itself is not very interesting. People on forums like this complain bout grinding. But grinding is NOT BAD. Bad grinding IS bad. Tetris is a game that's nothing but grind. Mindsweeper is nothing but grind. Bejeweled/Candy Crush is nothing but grind..
But the 'grind' part of most MMOs wasn't very good. Its just hit some buttons.. The very worst MMOS have mechanics were the grind is just hit any buttons in any order while being reasonable close to any mob. This 'mini-game' so to speak sucks. So when you eliminate all the 'roadblocks' and people get to experience the game. They are like WTF - this sucks. I am outta here.
Some level of forced interaction and some carefully chosen "quality of life" problems are ESSENTIAL for your games longevity. You also want as much 'sandbox' as your gamers can stomach because this will enhance the longevity of your game. Back when Blizzard had real open world PvP people would spend hours 'defending' their town - even if they didn't particularly life PvP. That very modest 'sandbox' saves developers effort..
But its not just the grind - its the forced social interaction. World of Warcraft has successfully removed all of the benefits of social interaction in that game. You can go from 1 to full raid geared without knowing anyone or making friends with anyone. You don't need anyone..
I know yes they still have 'real' raiding. But from a mental standpoint getting gear that's 90% as good with no social interaction is much easier. Almost everyone is going to choose that path - and they have. This saves a ton of time for the gamer. They don't play because their friends need them. They don't need friends.
It's a fascinating picture into human nature. Giving players what they want is really the road to failure. The WoW business model is becoming unsustainable. They players blow through the easy content they wanted - and then just quit. Because the content is easier - even the ones that don't blow through it and quit early don't feel they are missing out on anything because faceroll content makes their achievements 'feel' worthless.
I love WoW for sticking to their guns though. It will be a lesson to the industry as we watch them slip to around half their before LFD user base of 12 million next quarter. There are no shortcuts. Making a game is hard. Blizzard thought well easy was good - easier will be better. They thought well less social is good - no socialization is better. Again it wasn't true.