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Why mmos have changed
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
Its because people like me...
I prefer mmos with mostly solo content, and a groupfinder for groupcontent.. Dynamic content like GW2 does also work good for my taste.
the social part of the mmo has become my guildchat and the general zone chat.... Oreven the trade chat or group/ raid chat...
spending hours looking for people to play with is just not my idea of fun. And to be honest, i think the majorrity of people just loves this convenient playing style of relaxation after a hard days at the office.
When i get home, i just want to dive into the content.... One day i want challenging content, the other day, i want something relaxing that feels more like featuring in a movie... And this is where currrent games go wrong, they mostly offer easy simple gameplay.. And nothing challenging no more.
But even this is much better then hardcore mechanics and interfacing that frustrate me, where i want to enjoy myself.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
As soon as i saw the name of the thread maker i knew GW2 would be mentioned somewhere in the post. I think by now most of us have figured out you think GW2 is the bestest.
Not all mmo's have changed to the fed-x style of your favourite game.
Well, the demography of players has changed as well. Those of us who went to school or college during the golden eras of UO, EQ or DAoC have full time jobs and families now.
So where paradigms such as needing a full group to play any kind of content or endless grinds were common and commonly accepted, the players of that generation simply don't have the time for this kind of gameplay anymore.
It's not like automatic group finders are some great technological breakthrough. They didn't put it in Vanilla and BC WoW because they didn't want their game exposed and wanted people to keep on subscribing. And by exposed I mean that if you implement an auto group finder people 'play' the content alot more and quickly finish it.
Back when WoW was actually popular in NA people used to have to screw around at meeting stones - and would get involved in PvP and stuff. This was great for WoW because it meant less actual time doing the content and more longevity for the game. Now people burn through the stuff and say 'that's it?" Then they quit.
This reminds me of certain posters here defending stupid battlegrounds and shit as being more fun and its like, then why not play a MOBA?
A good distinction to make might be that MMOs should be more like sims or toys than games. Players should be able to affect the world in a way that lasts longer than the zone respawn timer.
Why can't we have an MMO for people that like MMOs? Most people claim its not financially viable. But I'd take a significant graphical cut to get better gameplay and I think most actual MMO lovers would also make sacrifices in non-essential stuff to get an amazing MMO.
In a heartbeat. I'll go further and be willing to reallocate all the resources used towards cut-scenes and voice overs and put it toward game play.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Yes exactly. I would sacrifice pretty much anything for solid gameplay systems to mess around with.
What I don't get about the solo play thing is....how can someone do something around millions of other people for years.....and have no friends to show for it.
I come home every day from work, log on and join friends I've never met in real life, but who I've been gaming with for years. It seems to me that it's a lack of effort in both the game and in the social aspects that leave people alone in a social multiplayer game.
When someone is like this in real life everyone pities them, or thinks they're weird. In MMOs it's considered "normal" behavior.
I wouldn't discount the addition of regular gamers into the mix. WoW did bring the idea of MMORPGs to a lot of regular gamers. There are probably just as many people now who want group requirements, and "grinds" for stuff as there were back in the UO/EQ/DAoC days, but there are just a lot more MMORPG players overall. If you have several million people who aren't tied to grouping, and a couple hundred thousand who are tied to grouping, the games probably aren't going to be tied to grouping.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"Since wow became more and more successfull and more and more casual and solo friendly other companies thought they could do it too. Hopefully some day a company will make a mmo for people that likes mmos again."
Cept this didn't happen.. WoW had growth EVERY SINGLE QUARTER - until halfway through WOTLK. Somehow the 'casual' enhancements that rolled into WOTLK near the end as well as LFR are getting all the credit for WoW success.
This is the developer mistake - and the mistake a lot of fans make. WoW was actually a better GAME then EQ in a lot of ways. It wasn't just easier - it was better. The combat for example had an actual decent UI and people would hot key their abilities - because you needed to be quick. In EQ it was just a click fest and you had hardly any abilities.
I used to like grouping and raiding in mmo's but that was years ago in the early days of mmo's.
Now I avoid games with hevy group focus and dont play any game that benefits groups or raids even pvp in any matter.
ER, I had to start playing those MMO's while I had a family, a job, etc, so never had the luxury of unrestricted game play.
It was quite possible to play and enjoy those early titles but of course, there was content I couldn't do (like 12 hour spawn camps)
So I don't buy this excuse that is put forth by this current generation of gamers that has grown up..... folks need to learn to adapt their play styles to fit the game, not the other way around. (both ways in the snow, uphill if necessary)
It's why the offerings we get today are so weak and non-challenging.
So yes, the OP is correct, it was the incursion of the type of gamer he is that has resulted in the MMORPG's today, and as such really deserves what he got.
Be careful what you wish for.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
IMO it is because of all the convenience features and decrease in "grind" that causes players to ignore each other. Time sinks and grinding used to make players want to group to increase the speed of completing something. Long chain quest that ended in a group quest used to increase the chance of finding groups. Group content that gave you gear that would last for the next 10 levels would make players want to group.
In todays MMO, things are so easy that you don't need anyone else. I am not talking about forced grouping, but features that made players want to group. Leveling used to take a lot longer, now you just go through the motions to level cap. The only time players need to group now are at level cap. And the games jumps from very casual to hardcore. And many players just aren't ready for that change and just leave.
No one today wants what made MMO's social back in the day. Because they want instant gratification, no time sinks and no grind are wanted. They want all content all the time then complain when the game if over in a few days. That is why games are consumed and dumped for the next one. And it is all about maximizing the cash at launch.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Variety is what made the old games better or at least more refreshing to play despite the flaws. You played one game and never felt like you were playing the same. You could be piloting King Kong's balls to defeat Godzilla but if its a WoW UI/themepark/quest hub/solo game its going to feel like a WoW clone. Inability to get beyond that is why most people I know who played MMORPGs largely left the genre.
I did once a 6 hour camp (lower guk i think) on EQ. Very boring gameplay and it was easy mode with 10 other groups helping you to kill the boss. I never did that again. That is not what my idea of a game should be.
Well it has been a bit of a falsehood to lay claim people had top spend hours to play the game.
FFXI is the best example,the most group oriented mmorpg ever,totally designed for group play and no questing xp.In that game there was a lot of stuff to do while having your lfg flag up,nobody forces a player to just sit there and do nothing.
Imo if all a gamer cares about is sitting and waiting to gain a level,they have missed the entire point of gaming.I doubt one single player could tell you that gaining a level number is time to say Wahoooooo!! fun all over,ya baby levels are so much fun.Even more hilarious when the levels go by faster than your toast in the toaster.
There is no such thing as dynamic that part is a bs,a lie,it is the same content that has always been around,just one developer decided to give it a cool title to make it sound unique.
Btw MMO's have not changed,only the upgrading of graphics/physics.Folr the most part a quest is sdtil la quest,weather you call it a Dynamic quest or not ,is not important.The ONLY difference is a game like FFXI does not hand out free xp for quests,they have a whole system bound around them.
Imo it is actually really sad when games cater to just two ideas,one to find ways to have players level and two to chase max level loot.Neither has any bearing on a Role playing game,just a couple of simple systems that are easy to make and repeat and call content.
I would actually LOVE to see games change,see someone think outside the box and actually design a game that feels and plays more like an actual ROLE PLAYING game.We already had single player games for years,no need to start adding internet and calling them MMO's if they truly are not played as MMO's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Challenge, yes. Tedium no. I want zero tedium in my games. If i want tedium, i can just go count sheep or something.
Yeh.
Just look at wow. You have 5-man dungeon runs, raids, challenge dungeons, scenarios, BG, arena, pet battles ... way more variety than old EQ.
And not to mention there are many more settings and unique IPs in MMO today than in the past.
LO, I recall an 8 hour spawn camp in Lineage 1 and right before he showed up another party came and killed us, and took the boss.
That is my idea about what a game should be.
We just enjoy very different things.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No, I don't think it's healthy but that really wasn't the point of my post. I was just saying that I focused on the activities that I enjoyed doing, and avoided the ones that I could not accomodate.
More modern game players lack the willingness to show similar flexibility, they want it all streamlined down to it's smoothest, easiest component.
Sure, getting rid of 12 hour spawn camps was a good idea. Getting rid of elite mobs in WOW's lower level dungeons so they all could be solo'd instead of forcing people to group to complete them, not so much.
Probably a good idea not to focus on extreme examples in these discussions... such as 30 minute boat rides.... Lineage 1 had a 10 minute Boat ride and WOW had a 3 or 4 minute boat ride at launch as I recall. Where is the proper balance? Some folks would say none of the above, make it instant travel.
Thing is, there were benefits and negative impacts for each of those designs, and I preferred the ones that tested you a bit more, (in terms of patience, fortitude and endurance) but clearly you did not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Exactly. What he think is fun, i think is a waste of time, tedious, without any challenge.
But i guess different people have different preferences on games.
Well, the reason we were camping the boss for 8 hours is he dropped some pretty unique and powerful items that could be obtained no where else. Well not true, I could buy them from other players.
Truth is, I couldn't do that 8 hour camp again, so I either adapted and did without those terrific items (usually the case) or went out and farmed ants and sold blessed teleport scrolls by the hundreds and bought the spell book or whatever.
So some players had the time to do it, others didn't but there were ways to cope, and that was the point of my post, I didn't see the need to remove that content so that no one could do it anymore.
As for the WOW elite references, I last played in the Cata expansion, and I mis-spoke, the elites I'm talking about were found in dungeon like areas of the open world, an Ogre cave comes to immediate mind, but there were others that I no longer found in the open realms. Apologies for causing confusion.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It wasn't healthy. But it was damn, damn fun.
Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -
Chiming in late - so apologies all around.
In UO we had so much fun waiting for idoc (in danger of collapsing) houses to fall, waiting for a guild to pop a harrower... I guess we all just BS'd in teamspeak and did "trammy" (read: PVE/crafting) things while we waited around.
Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -
The thing is, what you find is not fun or challenging, other people do. But as you will quickly point out, most of that content has been streamlined out of more modern MMO's, even WOW has really streamlined since the vanilla days, but not for the better IMO.
The BC changes drove me and many others away for the game for good, and unfortunately, we all are avoiding the genre for the most part and stick to older versions of older titles. We are still a market, perhaps a much larger one than anyone realizes and one day some developer might rediscover us.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon