Originally posted by glakuns Staff is 2-handed. Have to swap between them. Staff active abilities use magicka. All other weapons use stamina.
But you can still swap weapons correct?
If so then I don't see what the big deal is. Oh sure, it seems a bit cumbersome but if one can swap weapons and be able to do magic or melee the that still is very decent.
Though, having said that, I wish their system was "closer" to the past elder scrolls games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by glakuns Staff is 2-handed. Have to swap between them. Staff active abilities use magicka. All other weapons use stamina.
But you can still swap weapons correct?
If so then I don't see what the big deal is. Oh sure, it seems a bit cumbersome but if one can swap weapons and be able to do magic or melee the that still is very decent.
Though, having said that, I wish their system was "closer" to the past elder scrolls games.
The big deal is that many potential players can't wrap their head around performing both primary and secondary roles in a single fight.
Classes give us an easier entrance on certain skill lines while those who didn't pick our class have to work harder or inconvenience themselves with a corresponding weapon for similar skills if they want them.
Ever feel frustrated that Clerics and Paladins can't do enough damage? Templar takes care of that by letting the player use DPS weapon(s) in a secondary role and keep a shield for their primary role of healing (Cleric) or tanking (Paladin).
To be total honest 4 class is total ok ask EsO is more about how you build up class take WoW that is good example off what happen to mmo with to many class i mean many of them that play WoW have over 6 + class which make you not put in effort in all your class i like idea of 4 class that would mean you will put more effort in make your class better and you will learn how you class work.
WoooW that show how much you know about EsO it not get to be F2P it is go to P2P before you start trolling atlest make effort in read up before post crap like this ^^
Preferably I would have liked to see zero classes and multiple templates.
Breaking all abilities down into self contained components with proficiencies and then package them together somewhat fluidly with a fancy title like, the previous games.
This would have retained the ability for players to break away and develop their own designs, but also still have a finite factor that would call on each character still having a core role.
Seriously, not a part of the design that had to get changed so dramatically from the single player games. How you limit players from being able to do everything with such a system is you set a cap on the amount of things you can train and/or the amount of points you can accrue.
Why they decided to veer this far away from the original titles on aspects they really had no need to do so on can only be justified by the fact they are aiming at a different kind of audience, and that's still a point that raises a lot of ire in my mine even if I can understand why they would do so.
So so reiterate, to me they really didn't need any classes, they needed a template system like the previous ES games.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
0 classes are necessary in this game, they just added 4 classes because classless games are not widely accepted.
You and Bill both make this argument, but it is demonstrably false. The very game that ESO is emulating, namely, Elder Scrolls series, is classless. It is one of the most successful RPGs in the history of video gaming. Ergo, classless systems ARE widely accepted. Millions of gamers play the Elder Scrolls series and love the classless system.
the only ones who do not accept the classless system are developers.
Really, as Zenimax has stated sooo many times before the classes are just a template. Im guessing it will be for people Newer to mmos, to guide them , or what not...but im guessing . and everything i have read suggests that YOU make your OWN class basicly.
Elder Scrolls Online is going to offer a lot of depth in its character customization and progression...
Only it isn't.
There isn't a lot of skills at all on the progression side and depth of character is measured by a persons experience with other MMOs. Compared to some MMOs out there TESO has little depth in terms of customization. They are going to hold onto the NDA as long as possible to try to make sure there is little damage to keep people away from this game. They would have been better off just making an action game based on PvP with no MMO nor an attempt to make a game for TES players because they are failing on both fronts. Poor MMO and poor SRPG. Reminds me of SWTOR only with a story unworthy of its namesake.
4 Classes are plenty especially considering there are something on the order of 17-20 additional skill trees to acquire active and passive skills. With 2 additional skill tree's coming close after launch.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Well....where to begin......I guess I'll start off with I was a beta tester and I skipped the last two invites to play/test ESO again. Why? I'll try to explain my point of view without breaking the NDA.....too much.....
Here is a fact, I am a true 'Elder Scolls' fan and by that I mean I really love the series. After play testing ESO twice I walked away from it feeling like it only had a few real 'Elder Scrolls' elements but felt more like just another mmo being spewed out.
Regardless that this is a beta two core elements are there and will be part of 'ESO' on release; A. character building and B. game world/environment. The only way around this is if these two elements are completely scrapped and rebuilt which seems highly unlikely.
Character Building: No stats - that's right no STR., DEX, etc. etc. that you can select to raise or even view. Skills: Can select what skills you want from the list and then after leveling those skills can select to upgrade them. No Free form Character: That's right....what 'Elder Scrolls' fans love about building your character however you want is completely gone. Four classes is correct and if you build a warrior or archer class you can use other weapons as well but you will not be able to work on spellcasting at all. If you want to dabble in spellcasting you will need to build a spellcaster and choose if you really want to use a weapon over a staff.
I kept an open mind when play testing and even though character progression/building wasn't true 'Elder Scrolls' it was still fun, just not as fun.
Gameworld/Environment: Had a somewhat 'Elder Scrolls' feel but really felt more like just another typical mmo environment.
So when the next beta invites came around I skipped it. I didn't have the drive to want to delve into 'ESO' again, the feeling just wasn't there.
What I did do was go out and buy 'Oblivion' for my PS3 and start playing that again. So what happened was I was reinvigorated to play a true 'Elder Scrolls' game again after testing 'ESO'. 'ESO' just didn't cut it for me and I don't view this title as good enough to justify a monthly fee. I am all for a subscription based mmo if it's worth it and in my own opinion I don't feel this title is.
They should of put more effort into developing another true 'Elder Scrolls' game for the fans than an attempt to bring it into the mmo world which it clearly was never mean't to be..
I'm with you completely. If what you said is true I too will think "meh" when TESO is released. I've been saying this time and time again that this has got to be a REAL Elder Scrolls game. ZOS has only more recently been tipping the scale back towards Elder Scrolls side, so you may want to re-try the latest version (how could they not know this from the start?).
But please tell me you gave all this feedback to them- they need to know this stuff. And if you already gave it, then please report it again / stress those points-- we're all counting on you! None of us want to see a watered down TES game. Thanks
0 classes are necessary in this game, they just added 4 classes because classless games are not widely accepted.
You and Bill both make this argument, but it is demonstrably false. The very game that ESO is emulating, namely, Elder Scrolls series, is classless. It is one of the most successful RPGs in the history of video gaming. Ergo, classless systems ARE widely accepted. Millions of gamers play the Elder Scrolls series and love the classless system.
the only ones who do not accept the classless system are developers.
Classless as a solo RPG player, dude. That's what is acceptable in an RPG because the only person you are competing against is yourself.
Take this system into a pvp or raiding world and suddenly it's a bunch of mirrored builds - people will spam on DAY ONE - "What is the best combo for a dps, what is the best 'build' for a tank." People can talk how they want classless, but in reality, the only reason some folks cry for this is because they want a mage tank dps healer. A little of this, a little of that, until they find the best "pwn" build from the forums or from practice.
In the end it's just mediocrity - everyone has plate, can heal, and dos. Nonsense.
Matt Firor has just floored me with his decision to copy paste the 4 archetypes exactly across the three realms. A smidgeon of effort and he could easily have made uniquely skilled/titled class archetypes for each realm.
Presently, they have copy pasted the same 4 class archetypes across all three realms:
How does someone come from an mmorpg (Dark Age of Camelot) that still thrives on a subscription model in the wake of so many failed mmorpgs, that has 44 classes and 24 races, and create this title with only 4 class archetypes?
Rift's so called "classless" system made the game so incredibly boring. People will only take the most flavor of the month builds and usher them into pvp. As an example, your nightblade archetype will either be ranged copy paste, or melee copy paste.
Some might input more offense or defense, more range or more melee, more heal or more crowd control, into their classes. The differences will be ephemeral at best.
Differences add variation, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of individuality and importantly in an RvR game: A sense that the US really is different from the THEM. Without that sense of variation, why would anyone even bother except to bounce from the latest new game into this - only to leave again?
Why Matt, in a time when we are so buried in mediocre copy paste, cosmetic race/class based games...why would you offer the exact same thing when you of all people know better?
The Elder Scrolls Online is getting more disappointing every time they reveal something. They just appear to be a really lazy about development. There doesn't appear be anything innovative. Now they are destroying the The Elder Scrolls all together.
I would rather have had no classes, just play as you want, so I'll live with it that they have 4. I read something in the article about the holy trinity b.s. , that is exactly what we do not need, no tank, dps, heal b.s. just play how you want, that's what's needed
People will discover what specific class specialization is overpowered. Everyone will be that particular make until it gets nerfed.
Look at SWG & how many combat revamps they went through. Remember how many professions existed originally ? They even had non combat professions where you could be a tailor, cook or architect & level up. That is until they decided to remove 80% of the professions because they realized 99% of the players were combat medics, rifleman, TKA's..
All this BS about making the class how you want it is just that BS. Some will suck others will work. We all learned that in the old Arena TES games. Oh I wanna make a mage with heavy armor and 2h claymore.... hmmm strange its taking forever to level up. Wait a sec I'll reroll a straight thief... hmm levelling up much faster... I can one shot everything from across the map.. ok... buh bye mix n match class.
Post video on youtube.... everyone is a thief now.
People will discover what specific class specialization is overpowered. Everyone will be that particular make until it gets nerfed.
Look at SWG & how many combat revamps they went through. Remember how many professions existed originally ? They even had non combat professions where you could be a tailor, cook or architect & level up. That is until they decided to remove 80% of the professions because they realized 99% of the players were combat medics, rifleman, TKA's..
All this BS about making the class how you want it is just that BS. Some will suck others will work. We all learned that in the old Arena TES games. Oh I wanna make a mage with heavy armor and 2h claymore.... hmmm strange its taking forever to level up. Wait a sec I'll reroll a straight thief... hmm levelling up much faster... I can one shot everything from across the map.. ok... buh bye mix n match class.
Post video on youtube.... everyone is a thief now.
It really depends on how they put it together.
If you are raiding you probably want to maximize a particular role. However open world gameplay whether it be PvP or PvE should be fairly flexible. You shouldn't have choices, getting one thing should mean you can't get something else, and when you build your character you should be making tradeoffs between
a) how much damage you can take
b) how much damage you can avoid
c) how much damage you can dish out
d) mobility, combat and non combat situations
d) how much control you have
e) AoE vs. ST
etc... etc... etc...
If they have powerful abilities that are mobile, long range, high damage, AoE with a stun, then yeah shit will be broke. But if they make sure you are building up one at the expense of not building up another then it should balance out if they do it right. You could make glass cannons, or super tanks, or somewhere in between that is comfortable for your play style.
It only really becomes a problem when you get into play modes where you only care about one thing.(maximizing DPS or surviability etc...)
Originally posted by bexinh 4 classes are not enough imo. I prefer a game with diversity having as many classes as possible. That's why i love games like EQ. But as i understand having many classes the developer needs to balance them out which is really hard work, and i guess ppl dont like hard work.
Perhaps you all dont quite understand how the Elder Scrolls games work?Classes in these games are just a template.You can basically build out your character however you want.Start out with a Melee class and add magic abilities perhaps make him more like a a Paladin from other games.Theres nearly infinite ways to create the "class" you like.So yeah four "classes" is enough.
The Elder Scrolls Online is getting more disappointing every time they reveal something. They just appear to be a really lazy about development. There doesn't appear be anything innovative. Now they are destroying the The Elder Scrolls all together.
Love ignorant messages like this.No proof of your complaints whatsoever.How are they destroying The Elder Scrolls exactly?Its modified to play as an MMO. It has to have certain systems for it to work as an MMO.It cant be played exactly like a single player game.It simply just wouldnt work.You have to take into account economy,multiple players and a crap ton of other systems not normally in Single player Elder Scrolls games.Theres nothing disappointing in this game except they added first person view.ALthough thats ok since its an optional play style.So be disappointed if you want to be but your going to miss out on what looks to be a fun game.
Well....where to begin......I guess I'll start off with I was a beta tester and I skipped the last two invites to play/test ESO again. Why? I'll try to explain my point of view without breaking the NDA.....too much.....
Here is a fact, I am a true 'Elder Scolls' fan and by that I mean I really love the series. After play testing ESO twice I walked away from it feeling like it only had a few real 'Elder Scrolls' elements but felt more like just another mmo being spewed out.
Regardless that this is a beta two core elements are there and will be part of 'ESO' on release; A. character building and B. game world/environment. The only way around this is if these two elements are completely scrapped and rebuilt which seems highly unlikely.
Character Building: No stats - that's right no STR., DEX, etc. etc. that you can select to raise or even view. Skills: Can select what skills you want from the list and then after leveling those skills can select to upgrade them. No Free form Character: That's right....what 'Elder Scrolls' fans love about building your character however you want is completely gone. Four classes is correct and if you build a warrior or archer class you can use other weapons as well but you will not be able to work on spellcasting at all. If you want to dabble in spellcasting you will need to build a spellcaster and choose if you really want to use a weapon over a staff.
I kept an open mind when play testing and even though character progression/building wasn't true 'Elder Scrolls' it was still fun, just not as fun.
Gameworld/Environment: Had a somewhat 'Elder Scrolls' feel but really felt more like just another typical mmo environment.
So when the next beta invites came around I skipped it. I didn't have the drive to want to delve into 'ESO' again, the feeling just wasn't there.
What I did do was go out and buy 'Oblivion' for my PS3 and start playing that again. So what happened was I was reinvigorated to play a true 'Elder Scrolls' game again after testing 'ESO'. 'ESO' just didn't cut it for me and I don't view this title as good enough to justify a monthly fee. I am all for a subscription based mmo if it's worth it and in my own opinion I don't feel this title is.
They should of put more effort into developing another true 'Elder Scrolls' game for the fans than an attempt to bring it into the mmo world which it clearly was never mean't to be..
I'm with you completely. If what you said is true I too will think "meh" when TESO is released. I've been saying this time and time again that this has got to be a REAL Elder Scrolls game. ZOS has only more recently been tipping the scale back towards Elder Scrolls side, so you may want to re-try the latest version (how could they not know this from the start?).
But please tell me you gave all this feedback to them- they need to know this stuff. And if you already gave it, then please report it again / stress those points-- we're all counting on you! None of us want to see a watered down TES game. Thanks
Hey thanks for replying sorry I missed it and getting back late.
Yes I gave them a detailed survey report of what I thought when my last beta experience ended. It will not change anything going forward however. The core of their game is pretty much complete. For ESO to be more like what Elder Scrolls fans want they would have to start from scratch and that would take years.
I believe ESO will appeal to mmo gamers that are not familiar with the Elder Scrolls titles or don't really care. For the real fans however I think most should at least try the 30 day free trial and form their own opinion. I believe though that fans like me will quit playing after the trial.
Comments
But you can still swap weapons correct?
If so then I don't see what the big deal is. Oh sure, it seems a bit cumbersome but if one can swap weapons and be able to do magic or melee the that still is very decent.
Though, having said that, I wish their system was "closer" to the past elder scrolls games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The big deal is that many potential players can't wrap their head around performing both primary and secondary roles in a single fight.
Classes give us an easier entrance on certain skill lines while those who didn't pick our class have to work harder or inconvenience themselves with a corresponding weapon for similar skills if they want them.
Ever feel frustrated that Clerics and Paladins can't do enough damage? Templar takes care of that by letting the player use DPS weapon(s) in a secondary role and keep a shield for their primary role of healing (Cleric) or tanking (Paladin).
WoooW that show how much you know about EsO it not get to be F2P it is go to P2P before you start trolling atlest make effort in read up before post crap like this ^^
ahh the joys of using 3rd party IPs to crutch up...erm pad a game. get used to seeing variations of this statement a lot.
FIXED!!!
Bookmarked for later prophetic "neener neener" bashing like I did with someone's post 2 years later for EQ II.
twitch.tv/itpaladin
@ITPalg
YouTube: ITPalGame
It's "supposed" to be Elder Scrolls.
Preferably I would have liked to see zero classes and multiple templates.
Breaking all abilities down into self contained components with proficiencies and then package them together somewhat fluidly with a fancy title like, the previous games.
This would have retained the ability for players to break away and develop their own designs, but also still have a finite factor that would call on each character still having a core role.
Seriously, not a part of the design that had to get changed so dramatically from the single player games. How you limit players from being able to do everything with such a system is you set a cap on the amount of things you can train and/or the amount of points you can accrue.
Why they decided to veer this far away from the original titles on aspects they really had no need to do so on can only be justified by the fact they are aiming at a different kind of audience, and that's still a point that raises a lot of ire in my mine even if I can understand why they would do so.
So so reiterate, to me they really didn't need any classes, they needed a template system like the previous ES games.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You and Bill both make this argument, but it is demonstrably false. The very game that ESO is emulating, namely, Elder Scrolls series, is classless. It is one of the most successful RPGs in the history of video gaming. Ergo, classless systems ARE widely accepted. Millions of gamers play the Elder Scrolls series and love the classless system.
the only ones who do not accept the classless system are developers.
Only it isn't.
There isn't a lot of skills at all on the progression side and depth of character is measured by a persons experience with other MMOs. Compared to some MMOs out there TESO has little depth in terms of customization. They are going to hold onto the NDA as long as possible to try to make sure there is little damage to keep people away from this game. They would have been better off just making an action game based on PvP with no MMO nor an attempt to make a game for TES players because they are failing on both fronts. Poor MMO and poor SRPG. Reminds me of SWTOR only with a story unworthy of its namesake.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The odds of this game being anything but a complete disaster are almost 0. I can't believe anyone is honestly excited about it.
I'm with you completely. If what you said is true I too will think "meh" when TESO is released. I've been saying this time and time again that this has got to be a REAL Elder Scrolls game. ZOS has only more recently been tipping the scale back towards Elder Scrolls side, so you may want to re-try the latest version (how could they not know this from the start?).
But please tell me you gave all this feedback to them- they need to know this stuff. And if you already gave it, then please report it again / stress those points-- we're all counting on you! None of us want to see a watered down TES game. Thanks
Classless as a solo RPG player, dude. That's what is acceptable in an RPG because the only person you are competing against is yourself.
Take this system into a pvp or raiding world and suddenly it's a bunch of mirrored builds - people will spam on DAY ONE - "What is the best combo for a dps, what is the best 'build' for a tank." People can talk how they want classless, but in reality, the only reason some folks cry for this is because they want a mage tank dps healer. A little of this, a little of that, until they find the best "pwn" build from the forums or from practice.
In the end it's just mediocrity - everyone has plate, can heal, and dos. Nonsense.
Matt Firor has just floored me with his decision to copy paste the 4 archetypes exactly across the three realms. A smidgeon of effort and he could easily have made uniquely skilled/titled class archetypes for each realm.
Presently, they have copy pasted the same 4 class archetypes across all three realms:
How does someone come from an mmorpg (Dark Age of Camelot) that still thrives on a subscription model in the wake of so many failed mmorpgs, that has 44 classes and 24 races, and create this title with only 4 class archetypes?
Rift's so called "classless" system made the game so incredibly boring. People will only take the most flavor of the month builds and usher them into pvp. As an example, your nightblade archetype will either be ranged copy paste, or melee copy paste.
Some might input more offense or defense, more range or more melee, more heal or more crowd control, into their classes. The differences will be ephemeral at best.
Differences add variation, a sense of uniqueness, a sense of individuality and importantly in an RvR game: A sense that the US really is different from the THEM. Without that sense of variation, why would anyone even bother except to bounce from the latest new game into this - only to leave again?
Why Matt, in a time when we are so buried in mediocre copy paste, cosmetic race/class based games...why would you offer the exact same thing when you of all people know better?
The Elder Scrolls Online is getting more disappointing every time they reveal something. They just appear to be a really lazy about development. There doesn't appear be anything innovative. Now they are destroying the The Elder Scrolls all together.
Heres what will happen;
People will discover what specific class specialization is overpowered. Everyone will be that particular make until it gets nerfed.
Look at SWG & how many combat revamps they went through. Remember how many professions existed originally ? They even had non combat professions where you could be a tailor, cook or architect & level up. That is until they decided to remove 80% of the professions because they realized 99% of the players were combat medics, rifleman, TKA's..
All this BS about making the class how you want it is just that BS. Some will suck others will work. We all learned that in the old Arena TES games. Oh I wanna make a mage with heavy armor and 2h claymore.... hmmm strange its taking forever to level up. Wait a sec I'll reroll a straight thief... hmm levelling up much faster... I can one shot everything from across the map.. ok... buh bye mix n match class.
Post video on youtube.... everyone is a thief now.
It really depends on how they put it together.
If you are raiding you probably want to maximize a particular role. However open world gameplay whether it be PvP or PvE should be fairly flexible. You shouldn't have choices, getting one thing should mean you can't get something else, and when you build your character you should be making tradeoffs between
a) how much damage you can take
b) how much damage you can avoid
c) how much damage you can dish out
d) mobility, combat and non combat situations
d) how much control you have
e) AoE vs. ST
etc... etc... etc...
If they have powerful abilities that are mobile, long range, high damage, AoE with a stun, then yeah shit will be broke. But if they make sure you are building up one at the expense of not building up another then it should balance out if they do it right. You could make glass cannons, or super tanks, or somewhere in between that is comfortable for your play style.
It only really becomes a problem when you get into play modes where you only care about one thing.(maximizing DPS or surviability etc...)
Perhaps you all dont quite understand how the Elder Scrolls games work?Classes in these games are just a template.You can basically build out your character however you want.Start out with a Melee class and add magic abilities perhaps make him more like a a Paladin from other games.Theres nearly infinite ways to create the "class" you like.So yeah four "classes" is enough.
Love ignorant messages like this.No proof of your complaints whatsoever.How are they destroying The Elder Scrolls exactly?Its modified to play as an MMO. It has to have certain systems for it to work as an MMO.It cant be played exactly like a single player game.It simply just wouldnt work.You have to take into account economy,multiple players and a crap ton of other systems not normally in Single player Elder Scrolls games.Theres nothing disappointing in this game except they added first person view.ALthough thats ok since its an optional play style.So be disappointed if you want to be but your going to miss out on what looks to be a fun game.
Hey thanks for replying sorry I missed it and getting back late.
Yes I gave them a detailed survey report of what I thought when my last beta experience ended. It will not change anything going forward however. The core of their game is pretty much complete. For ESO to be more like what Elder Scrolls fans want they would have to start from scratch and that would take years.
I believe ESO will appeal to mmo gamers that are not familiar with the Elder Scrolls titles or don't really care. For the real fans however I think most should at least try the 30 day free trial and form their own opinion. I believe though that fans like me will quit playing after the trial.