They're valid questions and the punches were pulled. The spokesperson in no way disproved the point that the system is more pay to win than other ftp or ease the concerns of inflation:
- Other free to play games are not as pay to win when the spirit of their systems is to pay for vanity items only.
- When players can inject currency into a game you need more than just some quirky add on to control pricing.
I just hope they've hired a decent economist to model all of this, they should have interviewed them.
It is the valid point only if there are ways to obtain ingame currency in the game. Oddly enough, in current (yet unreleased) arcs system for AA from Mail.Ru, there literally no ways to get arcs in game. Exceptions are the open-world raid-bosses (imagine competition) and a few one-time quests. Arcs injected in game only by real money payments - via 'premium accounts' in limited amounts; or you just can buy unlimited amount of arcs with real money from Mail.Ru. Gold is bind on pickup and auction works on arcs instead of gold.
Imagine: generally the 'only' (with minor exeptions) way to inject actual ingame currency in game is real money.
It is the valid point only if there are ways to obtain ingame currency in the game. Oddly enough, in current (yet unreleased) arcs system for AA from Mail.Ru, there literally no ways to get arcs in game. Exceptions are the raid-bosses (imagine competition) and a few one-time quests. Arcs injected in game only by real money payments - via 'premium accounts' in limited amounts; or you just can buy unlimited amount of arcs with real money from Mail.Ru. Gold is bind on pickup and auction works on arcs instead of gold.
Imagine: generally the 'only' (with minor exeptions) way to inject actual ingame currency in game is real money.
Not to mention it sounds like there is no way to purchase subscription/vanity item shop overrides with anything earned ingame.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
It's a bit of a catch 22. You either have cash shop items (cash shop currency in this case) be tradable, and thus give cashers an advantage because they can sell their cash shop items to others for in-game currency, or you have them be untradeable, and thus give cashers an advantage because cash shop items are EXCLUSIVELY their's.
The only way to have it NOT give cashers an advantage is to make cash shop items untradeable AND be entirely 100% cosmetic. And honestly I don't think it's possible for an F2P game to generate enough cash shop sales from that. Even GW, with its B2P model, at least makes its' cash shop items tradeable.
Of course, depending on your point of view, there's a big difference between "Pay to win" and "Pay to have a slight advantage".
This model more or less will see more and more attention. It seems that it is fairly common in Asian mmos. Wushu has a similar model with bound silver (regular mmo gold), and unbound silver (player traded currency), gold and arcs.
Here is why the system works in Wushu. The conversion for $$ to unbound silver is absurd. I call it a sucker system, or a whale system. I will go as far to say 85%-90% of players only pay 9$ per month sub. We produce and get, then sell to the whales. No need to ever buy silver.
It's a hard concept to understand. It's literally foreign. The jest of it is make the cash to arc conversion rate stupidly bad, IF the game is good. Here's the thing though at anytime, say AA is not performing as anticipated, XL could "improve" the conversion and open the flood gates. At this point IF you do not purchase arcs, you will not be able to afford anything.
The most concerning thing about the AA system unlike Wushu, is there does not seem to be a sub option. Without that steady stream of revenue, the AA system may rely too heavily on the purchasing of arcs. This would mean instead of fishing for whales they maybe fishing for regular fish like me.
It is the valid point only if there are ways to obtain ingame currency in the game. Oddly enough, in current (yet unreleased) arcs system for AA from Mail.Ru, there literally no ways to get arcs in game. Exceptions are the raid-bosses (imagine competition) and a few one-time quests. Arcs injected in game only by real money payments - via 'premium accounts' in limited amounts; or you just can buy unlimited amount of arcs with real money from Mail.Ru. Gold is bind on pickup and auction works on arcs instead of gold.
Imagine: generally the 'only' (with minor exeptions) way to inject actual ingame currency in game is real money.
But there is way to get Arcs in game: sell your loot/craft on AH. No?
I mean, real life works the same way! There is no simple repetitive way to "find" money - you cannot, like, go out of your habitat and gather some "herbs" or "ores" that respawn for you and sell them for serious amount of money, there are no mobs to kill, no daily quests to do etc. The only way to get money is from real people who offer real jobs! And those people give you money they in turn got from other people, who all in turn get their money from the government institution that prints it!
So, this system is actually a very interesting one and closer to real world than any of the others.
Now, in real world, you do not need a "moneysink" because there is no constant influx of money (at least, not at the volumes at which gold is influxed in WoW, for example). Since in AA they will have a constant influx of money in the purchases of players, they will need a moneysink. This is the most crucial element in the whole system and wether this is done right or wrong will make or break the system.
The most concerning thing about the AA system unlike Wushu, is there does not seem to be a sub option. Without that steady stream of revenue, the AA system may rely too heavily on the purchasing of arcs. This would mean instead of fishing for whales they maybe fishing for regular fish like me.
There is a sub option, check the previous article on AA.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
Originally posted by IstrebiteI Since in AA they will have a constant influx of money in the purchases of players, they will need a moneysink. This is the most crucial element in the whole system and wether this is done right or wrong will make or break the system.
True.
Problem is, Mail.Ru has a bad (if not very bad) reputation amongst Russian gaming community due their approach to f2p gamedesign. That's why so many concerns are raised these days.
Because we're not familiar with Cryptic's system. Thank you for your point, we'll investigate it for ourselves and will be prepared better next time.
That's exactly why I wrote earller that "In fact, by a few questions I did the /rolleyes emote, there are russian fleets in STO, they should know from experience how easily the devs can control dilly flow and dilly prices, same with NW's AD Exchange." I thought you knew about those and deliberately skipped that matter in the interview... my bad, sorry about that, didn't know you're not familiar with it.
As Torvaldr wrote, "Of course the game is pay to win. You can buy advantage with money." So you could've point on many things about the system, like the devaluation of the ingame currency (EC in STO, gold in NW, both are pretty much worthless), the Exchange-players (with enough money you can pull/push the exchange rate, like if you'd play a dumbed down Forex), same with the AH prices. Those would be valid concerns.
Inflation or lack of dev control are not. Quite the opposite, Cryptic proved many times already, that they can easily make adjustments on the exchange rate... damn them Don't get me wrong, I like them, but when two (maybe three?) updates ago the Dilly/Zen rate fell from the 250ish region down to 80... /shakefist. No worries though, later I earned it all back
It is the valid point only if there are ways to obtain ingame currency in the game. Oddly enough, in current (yet unreleased) arcs system for AA from Mail.Ru, there literally no ways to get arcs in game. Exceptions are the open-world raid-bosses (imagine competition) and a few one-time quests. Arcs injected in game only by real money payments - via 'premium accounts' in limited amounts; or you just can buy unlimited amount of arcs with real money from Mail.Ru. Gold is bind on pickup and auction works on arcs instead of gold.
Imagine: generally the 'only' (with minor exeptions) way to inject actual ingame currency in game is real money.
This is the most important thing about the whole system. Could you please emphasise it in the next interview? It underline the analogy with Entropia Universe (looks like many gamers here are not familiar with the game). Though in Entropia you do spend real money on everything - repair your gear, buying your ammo and so on. All the regular way to fight inflation. (Btw, in Entropia very few people can make money with this system. The best ratio average player can get is returning 75% of money spent, afaik)
Here it looks like AA will be one big cash shop except items are not fluff.
The most concerning thing about the AA system unlike Wushu, is there does not seem to be a sub option. Without that steady stream of revenue, the AA system may rely too heavily on the purchasing of arcs. This would mean instead of fishing for whales they maybe fishing for regular fish like me.
There is a sub option, check the previous article on AA.
Well there should be no problem. As long as the conversion rate is really bad, and XL doesn't get greedy and make the conversion rate "better".
The most concerning thing about the AA system unlike Wushu, is there does not seem to be a sub option. Without that steady stream of revenue, the AA system may rely too heavily on the purchasing of arcs. This would mean instead of fishing for whales they maybe fishing for regular fish like me.
There is a sub option, check the previous article on AA.
Well there should be no problem. As long as the conversion rate is really bad, and XL doesn't get greedy and make the conversion rate "better".
One minor correction - XLGames can suggest options, but the way a publisher monetizes the game in their region is out of their hands in the end.
So it has very little to do with XL's greed, but a lot more to do with whoever is hosting the game in a given region.
So the way Trion might monetize the game is going to be their decision, not XLgames.
"We made several suggestions, but XLGames offered us only two possibilities: subscription model and the one that was introduced. The current Korean model was not even offered."
From this here, it seems like XL is firmly in control of their game. It seems XL retains the power to dictate to Mail.ru and Trion. Much the same as SnailGames retains the power to dictate to Gpatao and SnailUSA. Think host instead of tradition publisher like EA, NCsoft, and Acti-Blizz.
That being said, XL could listen to the feedback being given by Mail.ru and allow for more payment model options with Trion.
Comments
They're valid questions and the punches were pulled. The spokesperson in no way disproved the point that the system is more pay to win than other ftp or ease the concerns of inflation:
- Other free to play games are not as pay to win when the spirit of their systems is to pay for vanity items only.
- When players can inject currency into a game you need more than just some quirky add on to control pricing.
I just hope they've hired a decent economist to model all of this, they should have interviewed them.
Because we're not familiar with Cryptic's system. Thank you for your point, we'll investigate it for ourselves and will be prepared better next time.
It is the valid point only if there are ways to obtain ingame currency in the game. Oddly enough, in current (yet unreleased) arcs system for AA from Mail.Ru, there literally no ways to get arcs in game. Exceptions are the open-world raid-bosses (imagine competition) and a few one-time quests. Arcs injected in game only by real money payments - via 'premium accounts' in limited amounts; or you just can buy unlimited amount of arcs with real money from Mail.Ru. Gold is bind on pickup and auction works on arcs instead of gold.
Imagine: generally the 'only' (with minor exeptions) way to inject actual ingame currency in game is real money.
Not to mention it sounds like there is no way to purchase subscription/vanity item shop overrides with anything earned ingame.
It's a bit of a catch 22. You either have cash shop items (cash shop currency in this case) be tradable, and thus give cashers an advantage because they can sell their cash shop items to others for in-game currency, or you have them be untradeable, and thus give cashers an advantage because cash shop items are EXCLUSIVELY their's.
The only way to have it NOT give cashers an advantage is to make cash shop items untradeable AND be entirely 100% cosmetic. And honestly I don't think it's possible for an F2P game to generate enough cash shop sales from that. Even GW, with its B2P model, at least makes its' cash shop items tradeable.
Of course, depending on your point of view, there's a big difference between "Pay to win" and "Pay to have a slight advantage".
This model more or less will see more and more attention. It seems that it is fairly common in Asian mmos. Wushu has a similar model with bound silver (regular mmo gold), and unbound silver (player traded currency), gold and arcs.
Here is why the system works in Wushu. The conversion for $$ to unbound silver is absurd. I call it a sucker system, or a whale system. I will go as far to say 85%-90% of players only pay 9$ per month sub. We produce and get, then sell to the whales. No need to ever buy silver.
It's a hard concept to understand. It's literally foreign. The jest of it is make the cash to arc conversion rate stupidly bad, IF the game is good. Here's the thing though at anytime, say AA is not performing as anticipated, XL could "improve" the conversion and open the flood gates. At this point IF you do not purchase arcs, you will not be able to afford anything.
The most concerning thing about the AA system unlike Wushu, is there does not seem to be a sub option. Without that steady stream of revenue, the AA system may rely too heavily on the purchasing of arcs. This would mean instead of fishing for whales they maybe fishing for regular fish like me.
But there is way to get Arcs in game: sell your loot/craft on AH. No?
I mean, real life works the same way! There is no simple repetitive way to "find" money - you cannot, like, go out of your habitat and gather some "herbs" or "ores" that respawn for you and sell them for serious amount of money, there are no mobs to kill, no daily quests to do etc. The only way to get money is from real people who offer real jobs! And those people give you money they in turn got from other people, who all in turn get their money from the government institution that prints it!
So, this system is actually a very interesting one and closer to real world than any of the others.
Now, in real world, you do not need a "moneysink" because there is no constant influx of money (at least, not at the volumes at which gold is influxed in WoW, for example). Since in AA they will have a constant influx of money in the purchases of players, they will need a moneysink. This is the most crucial element in the whole system and wether this is done right or wrong will make or break the system.
There is a sub option, check the previous article on AA.
True.
Problem is, Mail.Ru has a bad (if not very bad) reputation amongst Russian gaming community due their approach to f2p gamedesign. That's why so many concerns are raised these days.
That's exactly why I wrote earller that "In fact, by a few questions I did the /rolleyes emote, there are russian fleets in STO, they should know from experience how easily the devs can control dilly flow and dilly prices, same with NW's AD Exchange." I thought you knew about those and deliberately skipped that matter in the interview... my bad, sorry about that, didn't know you're not familiar with it.
As Torvaldr wrote, "Of course the game is pay to win. You can buy advantage with money." So you could've point on many things about the system, like the devaluation of the ingame currency (EC in STO, gold in NW, both are pretty much worthless), the Exchange-players (with enough money you can pull/push the exchange rate, like if you'd play a dumbed down Forex), same with the AH prices. Those would be valid concerns.
Inflation or lack of dev control are not. Quite the opposite, Cryptic proved many times already, that they can easily make adjustments on the exchange rate... damn them
Don't get me wrong, I like them, but when two (maybe three?) updates ago the Dilly/Zen rate fell from the 250ish region down to 80... /shakefist. No worries though, later I earned it all back 
This is the most important thing about the whole system. Could you please emphasise it in the next interview? It underline the analogy with Entropia Universe (looks like many gamers here are not familiar with the game). Though in Entropia you do spend real money on everything - repair your gear, buying your ammo and so on. All the regular way to fight inflation. (Btw, in Entropia very few people can make money with this system. The best ratio average player can get is returning 75% of money spent, afaik)
Here it looks like AA will be one big cash shop except items are not fluff.
Well there should be no problem. As long as the conversion rate is really bad, and XL doesn't get greedy and make the conversion rate "better".
"We made several suggestions, but XLGames offered us only two possibilities: subscription model and the one that was introduced. The current Korean model was not even offered."
From this here, it seems like XL is firmly in control of their game. It seems XL retains the power to dictate to Mail.ru and Trion. Much the same as SnailGames retains the power to dictate to Gpatao and SnailUSA. Think host instead of tradition publisher like EA, NCsoft, and Acti-Blizz.
That being said, XL could listen to the feedback being given by Mail.ru and allow for more payment model options with Trion.