For me WvW fails only because it lacks more incentives to do it. The only incentive really is to make your world win, but problem is, if you're on server that is not WvW heavy and you don't have HC members that would protect your world from night capping and such, this incentive is lost. You can be the best in the world and have 100% of map when your people are online, but once those people go to bed, you lose everything.
If I don't think about score, it's fun game. Structures are perfectly defensible if people react on your early "under attack" shouts. Zerg vs. zerg fights are actually pretty fun. Even when you're rolled over, you still can play some.
sPvP is just casual fun. It's pretty much on the same level as other activities for me, only you play with "real" weapons and "real" skills.
I wouldn't say WvW failed as it is still really popular and ANET just said a while back that the number of players playing WvW exceeds the total population that plays GW1 for most of its life.
The reason I think you heard a lot of people say WvW failed is because the same reason as GW2 in general, it does not promote hardcore play and competitive spirit as much as many hardcore players wanted (e.g. some want higher stats as a form of progression, some want to see his name to be announced, some want to play more 8 vs 8 etc). However, if you pay attention, there are still lots of hardcore guilds left on WvW, most of them play either because they enjoy the combat (GvG) or because they are in a competitive tier like T1 in NA.
Also I have to call bull on those who say that GW2 is all about zerg and only numbers matters. All I have to say is either you have to join a good guild or improve your skill. An organized guild can easily pull of things like 20 vs 40 against disorganized foes, the amount of skill and organization required in running a good team is quite high but also the team can be really effective. In solo, good roamers routinely pull off things like 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3. Just because you cannot do it does not mean that numbers triump everything in WvW.
That being said, I do agree that WvW has a lot of problems. The biggest in my opinion is that a lot of matches are imbalanced and winning does not have much impact besides bragging rights. WvW is lots of fun when you are in a competitive tier and your server mates really care about winning the match. The new league system actually get a lot of T1 guilds excited because it provides more meaningful winning conditions.
It is not bad, but there are a couple of things that keep me from going deeper into pvp and other games that do it better.
1. You play some score chart to win instead of some real objective in all pvp formats.
2. Dodging/invinciblity is nothing but a bad compromise for bad combat/skill design. Imagine so much invincibility uptime in a shooter, moba, rts or any other competitive genre and you know how bad it is for that/any game.
3. Combat is way too fast for its own good. Tactics, counterplay, position play etc is largely redundant or non-existant. Everything is so focused on your build and composition that all other macro and micro skills are mostly void.
4. Maps and game types feel lackluster due to the generic design of all pvp. If you steal from BF, also try to steal what conquest and objective-based gameplay make so much fun.
5. Commander is just something you buy with gold, not earn, and there is little functionality that comes with it.
Needless to say, as soon as BF4 is released, I am done with WvW and sPvP.
It's too bad a player can't actually cash-out of Eve and walk away $6-8K dollars richer.
Eve is the only game that I know of that can equate virtual assets to real world money. All the other games with PVP like WoW, GW2, or AoW just have you dust yourself, respawn and jump back into the fray. Well, actually you get item decay in WoW and GW2 so you have to pay repairs, but that's still just chump change. I don't even think in Age of Wushu there is item decay from combat. Just timed decay akin to renting on some of their items. It's been a while since I played so maybe that changed?
Yeah there is item decay from death, and you lose bound silver when you die aswell. It also cost silver to res onsite. No real bad death penalty besides self respect though
Ahh ok. I couldn't remember if they had combat decay or not but I'm glad they do. As far as the self respect, yeh I remember how that stung to die to someone who got you due to a simple a mistake. Fun times.
It is not bad, but there are a couple of things that keep me from going deeper into pvp and other games that do it better.
1. You play some score chart to win instead of some real objective in all pvp formats.
2. Dodging/invinciblity is nothing but a bad compromise for bad combat/skill design. Imagine so much invincibility uptime in a shooter, moba, rts or any other competitive genre and you know how bad it is for that/any game.
3. Combat is way too fast for its own good. Tactics, counterplay, position play etc is largely redundant or non-existant. Everything is so focused on your build and composition that all other macro and micro skills are mostly void.
4. Maps and game types feel lackluster due to the generic design of all pvp. If you steal from BF, also try to steal what conquest and objective-based gameplay make so much fun.
5. Commander is just something you buy with gold, not earn, and there is little functionality that comes with it.
Needless to say, as soon as BF4 is released, I am done with WvW and sPvP.
For point number 5: You show up as a little blue arrow on the map, that's what you get for commander! Totally freakin sweet!
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
If you want to see real warfare that's more than a 24/7 scoring match ...... try Dark Age of Camelot.....the best realm vs realm game ever made The game is a shadow of its former glory but in two weeks you will see the difference between GW2's 15 minute pvp match extended to a week and called WvW. DAOC is 12 years old and still unmatched.
The difference is night and day and why WvW in GW2 is such a failure.
I played DAoC long enough, and I enjoy GW2's WvW way more. Way better balanced and designed. The only reason why DAoC worked back then is because it was the only choice in that category of MMORPGs. By today's standards, that game is quite bad, something only for a few hardcore nostalgia struck (ex)players.
I played DAoC long enough, and I enjoy GW2's WvW way more. Way better balanced and designed. The only reason why DAoC worked back then is because it was the only choice in that category of MMORPGs. By today's standards, that game is quite bad, something only for a few hardcore nostalgia struck (ex)players.
You do have a point, in fact that goes for a lot of MMORPGs, a lot of things succeeded due to time.
I still stick to the fact though that some features in DAOC should be at least copied and expanded on or something in WvW, like announcements with deaths and etc, and maybe make categories of which Guild has put in the most work and etc, who killed who, who killed who using traps or something crazy.
Then some other things, but I would like to say some of the things people say GW2 needs from DAOC would make the experience much worse, like I believe seperating races would of killed WVW quick. Example pit chars against humans in WVW and from the gate we already know who'd win.
Also some things would go against A-Net's philosophies also being the sheer fact that they don't want progression being timed based, you shouldn't have to play catch up only to then keep catching up because once you catch up who ever has had 3k plus hours in the game before you started would advance into another teier making you have to keep catching up.
I did look at some forums and old posts as to why DAOC had some short comings, cause I knew not everything about it was great, which somepeople tend to come of as if it is which it wasn't. Now is it one of the best RVR type games I knwo based off of common sense, that it is, but otherwise it should never be 100% copied.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
WvWvW is meaningless. By this I mean it has no impact on anything outside of the instance and basically is just keep trading. It's fun but eventually it didn't strike me as any different than WoW Battlegrounds or WAR's Scenarios. Spvp still only has a single game mode despite multiple maps. Balance is a travesty when it should be easier to manage than GW1 thanks to the removal of dual classing. Those are my issues. Same ones I had at launch and nothing has changed in over a year. Removal of culling and additional pvp progression were nice additions, but not enough to satisfy me (too little too late).
the WvWvW it would be better if it was a fight between the 3 orders, and not an instanced ...
the sPvP again it would be good if it had bigger player base, my solution to this would be a special "locked" client available only for Mists and with a low or zero price ...
I don't think they are fail. In fact I would bet tens of thousands of players play in the PvP modes every day. Far from fail. While it might not be to your liking I am sure it is to others.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Same old same old with nothing realy new or exciting. I dont mind massive battles duking it out, but a handfull of spells and no healers make WvW a real pain in the ass. If you got your shit on cooldown your out.
Also like many have said its instanced and it doesnt realy give you a reward + i always have bad luck with tokens that i need for gear.
GW2 would have been perfect for me if: 1: I could roll a dedicated Healer or Tank 2: WvW would have been open World instead of instanced. 3: I had more buttan to press.
Combine all 3 and GW2 would have gotten close to a 10/10 Now it stands in a 7 but a boring not entertaining combat system realy brakes it for me.
There's only one mode, though. I think that the biggest strike against it is that people want more sPvP. And the fact that people have been farming rank points in skyhammer.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
The actual gameplay itself is good. My shouts Warrior is one of my favorite playstyles in MMO history.
But the PvP design itself is a bad joke.
Yeah... I don't bother with sPvP. For some reason, I can't play it more than 3 rounds. I blame the single game mode we have in sPvP.
WvW, however, is the bees-knees for me. I love the fact that open world PvP gets its own instance instead of it being open world. Call me carebear, but if I want to PvE, I want to PvE without the fear of getting ganked.
Originally posted by Butch808 Because GW2 is a PVE game with pvp tacked onto the side.
This is bullshit of course. PvP was announced as a main component of GW2 since the very day the game was first revealed to be in development.
There you have it. It's because PvP is "a" main component instead of "thee" main component. If your going to make a good PvP game it needs to be done from Day 1, and be connected to the rest of the game, the economy, and be a fundamental part of the world. Not stuck in a box and put in the corner.
The main negative my friends had about it (WvW) is that enemy names are hidden. Part of the fun in other games' PvP was building a name for yourself, creating rivalries, etc. Fighting a nameless zerg takes alot of that out of the game.
For SPvP, I only ever pugged that, but when I did try it, everyone just ran around in a circle from point to point pretty much avoiding the other team. I think that it could have been fun with an organized team, but my friends never really gave it much of a chance before moving on to other games.
The main negative my friends had about it (WvW) is that enemy names are hidden. Part of the fun in other games' PvP was building a name for yourself, creating rivalries, etc. Fighting a nameless zerg takes alot of that out of the game.
I like that. No kiddie logging an alt on your server after you killed him to call you names. To me, no matter if you see the names or not, I don't fight names, I fight enemies. I don't feel the need to brag or hold grief against specific people when playing a video game.
The main negative my friends had about it (WvW) is that enemy names are hidden. Part of the fun in other games' PvP was building a name for yourself, creating rivalries, etc. Fighting a nameless zerg takes alot of that out of the game.
I like that. No kiddie logging an alt on your server after you killed him to call you names. To me, no matter if you see the names or not, I don't fight names, I fight enemies. I don't feel the need to brag or hold grief against specific people when playing a video game.
I'm the same way. I get a kick out of people who think they are making a name for themselves in PVP. I have seen people who thought they were good drop to the other team's scrubs. I have yet to remember anyone's name in all of the PVP games I played, which is A LOT. If I see a "red" player then either I kill them or they kill me. Doesn't get any more cut and dry than that. I could care less the name of the person of whom I'm scraping off my boot or the name of the person who scrapes me off because the results the next time we meet could possibly end up different.
I could agree with the argument that they should show names if the entire game was pvp, but since pvp is just a third or less of the endgame then it makes no difference to me. In Shadowbane, Eve, UO (pre-trammel), etc... you knew the names of the good pvp'ers, in GW2 it doesn't matter which one of the mass killed you.
My problem with WvW is the rewards and the lack of any semblance of permanency. Everything gets wiped so often, flipping can happen too quickly. Outside of score there is too little incentive to care, and even then it resets anyways. It honestly reminds me a lot of the RvR in WAR, and not in a good way...
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
There's only one mode, though. I think that the biggest strike against it is that people want more sPvP. And the fact that people have been farming rank points in skyhammer.
I think it is more than that. It just hasn't caught on. It also isn't very fun to watch. There is a reason that is has almost no viewers on Twitch. If it was popular people would watch it to learn strategies and such. Almost no one streams it.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Comments
For me WvW fails only because it lacks more incentives to do it. The only incentive really is to make your world win, but problem is, if you're on server that is not WvW heavy and you don't have HC members that would protect your world from night capping and such, this incentive is lost. You can be the best in the world and have 100% of map when your people are online, but once those people go to bed, you lose everything.
If I don't think about score, it's fun game. Structures are perfectly defensible if people react on your early "under attack" shouts. Zerg vs. zerg fights are actually pretty fun. Even when you're rolled over, you still can play some.
sPvP is just casual fun. It's pretty much on the same level as other activities for me, only you play with "real" weapons and "real" skills.
It's impossible to have massive scale PvP without zergs.
That doesn't stop you from capturing objectives with your guild, as we do quite often, without following the zerg.
My computer is better than yours.
I wouldn't say WvW failed as it is still really popular and ANET just said a while back that the number of players playing WvW exceeds the total population that plays GW1 for most of its life.
The reason I think you heard a lot of people say WvW failed is because the same reason as GW2 in general, it does not promote hardcore play and competitive spirit as much as many hardcore players wanted (e.g. some want higher stats as a form of progression, some want to see his name to be announced, some want to play more 8 vs 8 etc). However, if you pay attention, there are still lots of hardcore guilds left on WvW, most of them play either because they enjoy the combat (GvG) or because they are in a competitive tier like T1 in NA.
Also I have to call bull on those who say that GW2 is all about zerg and only numbers matters. All I have to say is either you have to join a good guild or improve your skill. An organized guild can easily pull of things like 20 vs 40 against disorganized foes, the amount of skill and organization required in running a good team is quite high but also the team can be really effective. In solo, good roamers routinely pull off things like 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3. Just because you cannot do it does not mean that numbers triump everything in WvW.
That being said, I do agree that WvW has a lot of problems. The biggest in my opinion is that a lot of matches are imbalanced and winning does not have much impact besides bragging rights. WvW is lots of fun when you are in a competitive tier and your server mates really care about winning the match. The new league system actually get a lot of T1 guilds excited because it provides more meaningful winning conditions.
Why is WvWvW and sPvP such a fail?
It is not bad, but there are a couple of things that keep me from going deeper into pvp and other games that do it better.
1. You play some score chart to win instead of some real objective in all pvp formats.
2. Dodging/invinciblity is nothing but a bad compromise for bad combat/skill design. Imagine so much invincibility uptime in a shooter, moba, rts or any other competitive genre and you know how bad it is for that/any game.
3. Combat is way too fast for its own good. Tactics, counterplay, position play etc is largely redundant or non-existant. Everything is so focused on your build and composition that all other macro and micro skills are mostly void.
4. Maps and game types feel lackluster due to the generic design of all pvp. If you steal from BF, also try to steal what conquest and objective-based gameplay make so much fun.
5. Commander is just something you buy with gold, not earn, and there is little functionality that comes with it.
Needless to say, as soon as BF4 is released, I am done with WvW and sPvP.
Ahh ok. I couldn't remember if they had combat decay or not but I'm glad they do. As far as the self respect, yeh I remember how that stung to die to someone who got you due to a simple a mistake. Fun times.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
For point number 5: You show up as a little blue arrow on the map, that's what you get for commander! Totally freakin sweet!
OP
If you want to see real warfare that's more than a 24/7 scoring match ...... try Dark Age of Camelot.....the best realm vs realm game ever made The game is a shadow of its former glory but in two weeks you will see the difference between GW2's 15 minute pvp match extended to a week and called WvW. DAOC is 12 years old and still unmatched.
The difference is night and day and why WvW in GW2 is such a failure.
I played DAoC long enough, and I enjoy GW2's WvW way more. Way better balanced and designed. The only reason why DAoC worked back then is because it was the only choice in that category of MMORPGs. By today's standards, that game is quite bad, something only for a few hardcore nostalgia struck (ex)players.
My computer is better than yours.
You do have a point, in fact that goes for a lot of MMORPGs, a lot of things succeeded due to time.
I still stick to the fact though that some features in DAOC should be at least copied and expanded on or something in WvW, like announcements with deaths and etc, and maybe make categories of which Guild has put in the most work and etc, who killed who, who killed who using traps or something crazy.
Then some other things, but I would like to say some of the things people say GW2 needs from DAOC would make the experience much worse, like I believe seperating races would of killed WVW quick. Example pit chars against humans in WVW and from the gate we already know who'd win.
Also some things would go against A-Net's philosophies also being the sheer fact that they don't want progression being timed based, you shouldn't have to play catch up only to then keep catching up because once you catch up who ever has had 3k plus hours in the game before you started would advance into another teier making you have to keep catching up.
I did look at some forums and old posts as to why DAOC had some short comings, cause I knew not everything about it was great, which somepeople tend to come of as if it is which it wasn't. Now is it one of the best RVR type games I knwo based off of common sense, that it is, but otherwise it should never be 100% copied.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Steam: Neph
the WvWvW it would be better if it was a fight between the 3 orders, and not an instanced ...
the sPvP again it would be good if it had bigger player base, my solution to this would be a special "locked" client available only for Mists and with a low or zero price ...
thats the main flaws for the PvP aspect of GW2 .
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Same old same old with nothing realy new or exciting.
I dont mind massive battles duking it out, but a handfull of spells and no healers make WvW a real pain in the ass.
If you got your shit on cooldown your out.
Also like many have said its instanced and it doesnt realy give you a reward + i always have bad luck with tokens that i need for gear.
GW2 would have been perfect for me if:
1: I could roll a dedicated Healer or Tank
2: WvW would have been open World instead of instanced.
3: I had more buttan to press.
Combine all 3 and GW2 would have gotten close to a 10/10
Now it stands in a 7 but a boring not entertaining combat system realy brakes it for me.
GW2's sPvP isn't bad at all.
There's only one mode, though. I think that the biggest strike against it is that people want more sPvP. And the fact that people have been farming rank points in skyhammer.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
SPvP is trash.
The actual gameplay itself is good. My shouts Warrior is one of my favorite playstyles in MMO history.
But the PvP design itself is a bad joke.
Yeah... I don't bother with sPvP. For some reason, I can't play it more than 3 rounds. I blame the single game mode we have in sPvP.
WvW, however, is the bees-knees for me. I love the fact that open world PvP gets its own instance instead of it being open world. Call me carebear, but if I want to PvE, I want to PvE without the fear of getting ganked.
This is bullshit of course. PvP was announced as a main component of GW2 since the very day the game was first revealed to be in development.
My computer is better than yours.
There you have it. It's because PvP is "a" main component instead of "thee" main component. If your going to make a good PvP game it needs to be done from Day 1, and be connected to the rest of the game, the economy, and be a fundamental part of the world. Not stuck in a box and put in the corner.
The main negative my friends had about it (WvW) is that enemy names are hidden. Part of the fun in other games' PvP was building a name for yourself, creating rivalries, etc. Fighting a nameless zerg takes alot of that out of the game.
For SPvP, I only ever pugged that, but when I did try it, everyone just ran around in a circle from point to point pretty much avoiding the other team. I think that it could have been fun with an organized team, but my friends never really gave it much of a chance before moving on to other games.
I like that. No kiddie logging an alt on your server after you killed him to call you names. To me, no matter if you see the names or not, I don't fight names, I fight enemies. I don't feel the need to brag or hold grief against specific people when playing a video game.
My computer is better than yours.
I'm the same way. I get a kick out of people who think they are making a name for themselves in PVP. I have seen people who thought they were good drop to the other team's scrubs. I have yet to remember anyone's name in all of the PVP games I played, which is A LOT. If I see a "red" player then either I kill them or they kill me. Doesn't get any more cut and dry than that. I could care less the name of the person of whom I'm scraping off my boot or the name of the person who scrapes me off because the results the next time we meet could possibly end up different.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I could agree with the argument that they should show names if the entire game was pvp, but since pvp is just a third or less of the endgame then it makes no difference to me. In Shadowbane, Eve, UO (pre-trammel), etc... you knew the names of the good pvp'ers, in GW2 it doesn't matter which one of the mass killed you.
My problem with WvW is the rewards and the lack of any semblance of permanency. Everything gets wiped so often, flipping can happen too quickly. Outside of score there is too little incentive to care, and even then it resets anyways. It honestly reminds me a lot of the RvR in WAR, and not in a good way...
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
I think it is more than that. It just hasn't caught on. It also isn't very fun to watch. There is a reason that is has almost no viewers on Twitch. If it was popular people would watch it to learn strategies and such. Almost no one streams it.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?