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Ah. I get the whole F2P antipathy that's going around now.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    There is a certain irony in the fact that a financial model that was hailed as bringing us MMOs on the cheap has introduced the device by which the whole of online gaming has been commercialised to the nth degree.

    Well, that works in almost every industry. If something is cheap, it usually means that the industry has achieved economy of scale .. meaning large masses of customers.

    F2P does that by making it easy to get people into the door. With so many entertainment options out there, i probably won't even be paying attention to MMOs if not that i can just play a few hours to sample them for free.

  • TenebraeAeternaTenebraeAeterna Member CommonPosts: 34
    Originally posted by crack_fox
    Originally posted by Raph

    That said, the most reliable ways of doing that have had more to do with coercion than compelling gameplay, alas ... Coercive play doesn't tend to build loyal brands and customers.

    Barcelona is (in)famous for its pickpockets. I would like to visit Barcelona. It is undoubtedly a beautiful and fascinating city. However, I would be reluctant to accept a free trip to Barcelona if I knew that my flight and accommodation was being paid for by a syndicate of pickpocketing gangs. This is what it feels like to join a F2P-by-design MMO. No matter how compelling the gameplay, I cannot 'freely' enjoy it even if I can play it for free. I am too wary of those coercive elements, lurking at every turn, to the extent that recognising and evading them becomes the game.

     

    I can see why people are so overwhelmingly jaded with the failed free to play models, having found themselves sucked into a deceptive pay to win through the promise of free to play. This, however, doesn't mean that it can't be done...there is a model right now that is truly free to play and one coming out here shortly.

    Planetside 2 is entirely free to play without a single purchasable item that effects gameplay. You can purchase experience boosts and unlock weapons for instantaneous gratification, but you can just as easily earn these weapons through time spent playing the actual game itself. Otherwise, everything that you can purchase is vanity related with the exception of camouflage...which has arguable gameplay merit.

    Nothing encourages you to pay into the game, you can play for ten hours straight without feeling the need to purchase a single thing...because anything that you need can be obtained through sheer time spent playing. They make their money off those who don't want to wait because they don't get to spend as much time due to work, or whatever the reason, and are willing to spend that cash on instant gratification.

    With the player studio incorporation, they have effectively solidified this free to play model in my opinion. This is the same model that I believe is going to be used in EQN, not that the game doesn't have its own problems...but the business
    model doesn't look to be one of them.

    Another free to play model coming out is one where free based players can trade in game currency and items for actual game time with paying players. Their methodology revolves around the concept that people who pay are doing so because they won't have time to actually play much due to work, school, or whatever...so they won't be acquiring as much in game currency and items whereas a free based player normally has a lot of time on their hands to collect in game currency and items. So, they'll let these players essentially gold farm for the paying players and perform this exchange to ensure both groups get to play.

    Completely new concept, but it has promise in my opinion.

    People are jaded by free to play because of how often it has failed or been used as a deceptive means to pull people into a pay to win model. Either your free to play game degraded into a pay to win because they had a crappy model...or it was all a ruse to get you sucked into a pay to win from the start, like all flash based games. Planetside 2, thus far, has already shown that it is perfectly possible to have a Free to Play model that doesn't trick you into Pay to Win and that new model I just expressed might be yet another way to do it that comes out solid and refined...but we'll have to wait and see.

    It's possible to have a functioning MMORPG on a free to play model without it being a pay to win in disguise, and with a lengthy lifespan as well. It might take some time, of course, and some very creative thinking on what can be offered in the cash shop that doesn't actually make the game pay to win...but it's possible.

    Comparing free to play with these obviously pay to win browser based games though...everyone just needs to stop doing that. You're comparing games like Planetside 2 and Guildwars 2 to flash based games that's are designed to fail after having roped in whales and draining them of massive amounts of income. That's a very incorrect way of thinking, these flash based games are not free to play.

    Many true free to play games have failed and devolved into a pay to win...but again, this is just to show that it's a bit difficult to do. I think SOE has pulled it off though, and others will too when their top competitors are all going a free to play model and leaving them behind. If you can get a great product out there and do it with a free to play model that everyone is fond of...your competitors HAVE to do the same or they won't have as many customers.

    If EQN actually does really good, it'll take out ESO for that very reason, which sucks because I actually was interested in ESO whereas I have no interest in EQN. Be that as it may, if this free to play model works...then they ALL have to start thinking on how they are going to do a successful free to play model so that they can compete.

     

    I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by crack_fox
    Originally posted by Raph

    That said, the most reliable ways of doing that have had more to do with coercion than compelling gameplay, alas ... Coercive play doesn't tend to build loyal brands and customers.

    Barcelona is (in)famous for its pickpockets. I would like to visit Barcelona. It is undoubtedly a beautiful and fascinating city. However, I would be reluctant to accept a free trip to Barcelona if I knew that my flight and accommodation was being paid for by a syndicate of pickpocketing gangs. This is what it feels like to join a F2P-by-design MMO. No matter how compelling the gameplay, I cannot 'freely' enjoy it even if I can play it for free. I am too wary of those coercive elements, lurking at every turn, to the extent that recognising and evading them becomes the game.

     

    Agreed. Who wants to constantly think about money during playing the game. The only money I want to hear about there is game money in the form of pixels. 

    You just need some will power.

    I play F2P games, and i just tuned out the cash shop and never spend a cent.

    I have 30 hours of free fun finishing up the story content of Marvel Heroes, for example. I may even go back for more for new content. I don't see a reason not to enjoy that free content.

     

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Member Posts: 2,697
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Some people at work are playing Clash of Clans so I'm trying it out on my phone. Yes, it is a mobile game, and not an MMORPG, but it is a F2P game, and it condenses the F2P experience that a lot of people seem to fear down into a 10 minute example.

    In playing this game, I've been conserving the in game unit of exchange, called gems, or crystals. Little green things. The reason why is that I can see the point where I'm going to either have to check in with the game every ten minutes to collect resources, but really do nothing else, or spend money on those gems to buy resources, otherwise I won't be able to do anything. Now, I can take this game or leave it. There's not a ton of game play to be had. To me, it mostly seems like a system designed to siphon money out of humans by giving them numbers.

    The people I work with are spending a lot of money on this game. At least it looks like a lot of money to me. If the average person who's spending money on this game is spending upwards of a $100 a month, what incentive does the developer have to create game play for people like me, who are never going to spend that kind of money?

    What if this is not only an instance of something, but a trend? The average dollar amount spent per game is going to be fairly high, and there will be little incentive to create game play for people who won't spend that much money, effectively pushing them out of that segment of the gaming market. A segment that includes MMORPGs.

    That's the fear. That the cost for playing MMORPGs through F2P will rise to the point that people who enjoy MMORPGs will no longer play them because they are too expensive.

    Candy Crush Saga. They took a standard, been done 100 times (and even done with candy pieces before) match game and added a store. They made the game more likely to get you stuck to where your game would end and you'd have to start over. Then they sold you all these interesting special gems that would get you out of being stuck. They are making something like half a million dollars EVERY DAY.

     

    Too many serious gamers want to close their eyes and say it isn't happening, that it isn't a trend, that games won't be pay to win. Developers on the other hand see how many people will pay to win or will even pay just to be able to keep playing so they will keep pushing that to keep increasing profits. It is all about creating addiction and then creating a pay to keep feeding that addiction. People should support or even want these types of things to exist as it kills real gameplay.

     

    But on a forum like this plenty will show up who will shout from the rooftops their desire to be able to play games with no cost so they will defend F2P with every ounce of energy they have. God forbid people PAY upfront to access entertainment and then that entertainment is created with quality and care as opposed to letting everyone in for free and then needing them to become addicted enough to pay money causing the gameplay to be extremely shallow.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    But on a forum like this plenty will show up who will shout from the rooftops their desire to be able to play games with no cost so they will defend F2P with every ounce of energy they have. God forbid people PAY upfront to access entertainment and then that entertainment is created with quality and care as opposed to letting everyone in for free and then needing them to become addicted enough to pay money causing the gameplay to be extremely shallow.

    Yes, that is the beauty of freedom of speech. You don't have a monopoly of what opinions are valid and should be aired.

    And yes, it is great that there are whales to subsidize gaming. And if the games are as fun as the sub ones, why shouldn't i play the free ones?

    In fact, many free ones (STO, Marvel Heroes ...) are MORE fun (to me, of course, since fun is subjective) than sub-only games. Now tell me, is there a reason i should refuse to have fun just because?

     

     

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Member Posts: 2,697
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    But on a forum like this plenty will show up who will shout from the rooftops their desire to be able to play games with no cost so they will defend F2P with every ounce of energy they have. God forbid people PAY upfront to access entertainment and then that entertainment is created with quality and care as opposed to letting everyone in for free and then needing them to become addicted enough to pay money causing the gameplay to be extremely shallow.

    Yes, that is the beauty of freedom of speech. You don't have a monopoly of what opinions are valid and should be aired.

    And yes, it is great that there are whales to subsidize gaming. And if the games are as fun as the sub ones, why shouldn't i play the free ones?

    In fact, many free ones (STO, Marvel Heroes ...) are MORE fun (to me, of course, since fun is subjective) than sub-only games. Now tell me, is there a reason i should refuse to have fun just because?

     

     

    No one doubted you would be the one to respond to that. Sadly you (and others who feel that way) won't realize what your view has done to gaming until every last section of gaming has been destroyed.

     

    You also always latch onto whales while ignoring all of the evidence out there that the different F2P games that have mastered addictive gameplay have bankrupted normal individuals who actually did not have the money to be spending away on a video game. Plenty of discussions can be had on self control just as can be had with avoiding drugs in the first place. Yet most people agree that the majority of drugs are bad. Unenlightened people haven't yet reached the same conclusion on most of the F2P models out there, but they will.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

     

    No one doubted you would be the one to respond to that. Sadly you (and others who feel that way) won't realize what your view has done to gaming until every last section of gaming has been destroyed.

     

    You also always latch onto whales while ignoring all of the evidence out there that the different F2P games that have mastered addictive gameplay have bankrupted normal individuals who actually did not have the money to be spending away on a video game. Plenty of discussions can be had on self control just as can be had with avoiding drugs in the first place. Yet most people agree that the majority of drugs are bad. Unenlightened people haven't yet reached the same conclusion on most of the F2P models out there, but they will.

    oh .. it may be "sad" for you. And you are wrong. I realize fully what it will do to gaming, just that i don't care. I doubt it will destroy all gaming, and even if it does, there are plenty of other stuff to keep me entertained.

    "mastered addictive gameplay that bankrupted normal individuals"? well .. it did not happen to me. It probably will never happen to me, since i always quit before hitting a pay wall, and i ignore cash shop. Now you can discuss how to control addiction, but as of now, it is legal, and it does not affect me.

    (And before you say it .. yes ... it is "me me me". I play games to entertain me, not to do good for the world. For that, i donate to charity.)

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    No one doubted you would be the one to respond to that. Sadly you (and others who feel that way) won't realize what your view has done to gaming until every last section of gaming has been destroyed.

    You also always latch onto whales while ignoring all of the evidence out there that the different F2P games that have mastered addictive gameplay have bankrupted normal individuals who actually did not have the money to be spending away on a video game. Plenty of discussions can be had on self control just as can be had with avoiding drugs in the first place. Yet most people agree that the majority of drugs are bad. Unenlightened people haven't yet reached the same conclusion on most of the F2P models out there, but they will.

    oh .. it may be "sad" for you. And you are wrong. I realize fully what it will do to gaming, just that i don't care. I doubt it will destroy all gaming, and even if it does, there are plenty of other stuff to keep me entertained.

    "mastered addictive gameplay that bankrupted normal individuals"? well .. it did not happen to me. It probably will never happen to me, since i always quit before hitting a pay wall, and i ignore cash shop. Now you can discuss how to control addiction, but as of now, it is legal, and it does not affect me.

    (And before you say it .. yes ... it is "me me me". I play games to entertain me, not to do good for the world. For that, i donate to charity.)

    Don't be so melodramatic; it's not about doing good for the world it's about having a sustainable future for gaming. Also, you're not a special snowflake because you enjoy other forms of entertainment. Newsflash: we all do! But it would appear that many folks who do enjoy all of the entertainment out there still give a crap about gaming. Crazy, right?

     

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Cecropia
     

    Don't be so melodramatic; it's not about doing good for the world it's about having a sustainable future for gaming. Also, you're not a special snowflake because you enjoy other forms of entertainment. Newsflash: we all do! But it would appear that many folks who do enjoy all of the entertainment out there still give a crap about gaming. Crazy, right?

     

    That is the thing. I play games for fun, and would care less about "sustainable future for gaming". Entertainment changes over time anyway. I don't really care if gaming, as it is now, survives in another 5, 10 years. It is unlikely that i would be bored with nothing to do anyway.

    And of course i am not special .. why do you think that tv, anime, movies are all making big money?

  • azmundaiazmundai Member UncommonPosts: 1,419

    for me it pretty much as to do with the fact that I don't want to be bothered thinking about it. I want to pay to support the game, but I don't want to have to decide whether or not to spend real world money to unlock anything, even cosmetics honestly, though I can live with that I guess, but if there was an AAA MMO that interested me, and didn't have any cash shop I would play that instead of a game with a cosmetic cash shop.

    imo if I am paying $15 a month, why are you nickle and diming me for more? Just build it into the cost of the game. If it exists in game, it should fall under the $15 a month envelope. If you need more money, man up and raise the sub .. but the content better be worth the added price. If it isn't worth the added price then that is where the failure is, not in the lack of a cash shop.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • TenebraeAeternaTenebraeAeterna Member CommonPosts: 34

    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Some people at work are playing Clash of Clans so I'm trying it out on my phone. Yes, it is a mobile game, and not an MMORPG, but it is a F2P game, and it condenses the F2P experience that a lot of people seem to fear down into a 10 minute example.

    In playing this game, I've been conserving the in game unit of exchange, called gems, or crystals. Little green things. The reason why is that I can see the point where I'm going to either have to check in with the game every ten minutes to collect resources, but really do nothing else, or spend money on those gems to buy resources, otherwise I won't be able to do anything. Now, I can take this game or leave it. There's not a ton of game play to be had. To me, it mostly seems like a system designed to siphon money out of humans by giving them numbers.

    The people I work with are spending a lot of money on this game. At least it looks like a lot of money to me. If the average person who's spending money on this game is spending upwards of a $100 a month, what incentive does the developer have to create game play for people like me, who are never going to spend that kind of money?

    What if this is not only an instance of something, but a trend? The average dollar amount spent per game is going to be fairly high, and there will be little incentive to create game play for people who won't spend that much money, effectively pushing them out of that segment of the gaming market. A segment that includes MMORPGs.

    That's the fear. That the cost for playing MMORPGs through F2P will rise to the point that people who enjoy MMORPGs will no longer play them because they are too expensive.

    Candy Crush Saga. They took a standard, been done 100 times (and even done with candy pieces before) match game and added a store. They made the game more likely to get you stuck to where your game would end and you'd have to start over. Then they sold you all these interesting special gems that would get you out of being stuck. They are making something like half a million dollars EVERY DAY.

     

    Too many serious gamers want to close their eyes and say it isn't happening, that it isn't a trend, that games won't be pay to win. Developers on the other hand see how many people will pay to win or will even pay just to be able to keep playing so they will keep pushing that to keep increasing profits. It is all about creating addiction and then creating a pay to keep feeding that addiction. People should support or even want these types of things to exist as it kills real gameplay.

     

    But on a forum like this plenty will show up who will shout from the rooftops their desire to be able to play games with no cost so they will defend F2P with every ounce of energy they have. God forbid people PAY upfront to access entertainment and then that entertainment is created with quality and care as opposed to letting everyone in for free and then needing them to become addicted enough to pay money causing the gameplay to be extremely shallow.

    Sigh...

    For the tenth or so time, free to play does not equate to pay to win. Flash based games are not free to play, they're simply using that claim as a ruse to enshroud the fact that they are pay to win. We have games that are free to play which do NOT follow that methodology, true free to play games.

    Planetside 2...

    Guildwars 2...

    Everquest Next is presumably going to follow the same methodology of Planetside 2.

    Free to play does not have to be pay to win, we know this because it has been proven. People need to understand this and realize that it's possible. There's even a new free to play model coming out soon, and it may prove to be better than the one that EQN, PS2, and GW2 use. Either way, we know it's possible to have a free to play game that doesn't screw us into pay to win.

    Originally posted by azmundai

    for me it pretty much as to do with the fact that I don't want to be bothered thinking about it. I want to pay to support the game, but I don't want to have to decide whether or not to spend real world money to unlock anything, even cosmetics honestly, though I can live with that I guess, but if there was an AAA MMO that interested me, and didn't have any cash shop I would play that instead of a game with a cosmetic cash shop.

    imo if I am paying $15 a month, why are you nickle and diming me for more? Just build it into the cost of the game. If it exists in game, it should fall under the $15 a month envelope. If you need more money, man up and raise the sub .. but the content better be worth the added price. If it isn't worth the added price then that is where the failure is, not in the lack of a cash shop.

    I agree with this to an extent.

    Personally, were I to make a game, I'd most likely include a lot of things sold in the "cash shop" to players who subscribe to a membership...then some. Those who pay membership fees should be awarded perks that don't effect the game, like unlimited server transfers at a whim.

    Make them Planeswalkers like on MTG. :P Able to shift between servers whenever they wish.

    Complicated, but doable and a nice perk for someone paying into the game without screwing over other players.

     

    I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...

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