The "never stop learning" part I absolutely agree with.
The "self doubt" part I do not. Self doubt is great for people who are wrong a lot or make frequent mistakes. I think may have just chosen his words poorly. You want somebody who is confident but not arrogant, somebody who can admit to his mistakes and learn from them.
I agree with you Dave.
I write music as well as libretti/"book" and there is no self doubt at all. But there is a sense that things can always be better and that constnatly learning and honing your craft will spur you onward.
I belong to a group that workshops new opera and new music theater and I've rarely experienced people who had self doubt about there abilities. More like doubt about whether this is a good use of their time.
I know singers who can get up on stage at the drop of a dime so confident are they in their instrument but they might doubt whether or not the profession is worth it.
I think he could have reworded that. Or maybe he's just speaking about himself.
I can say that believing in one's own press isn't necessarily a good thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I also have to echo the others that said the so-called gaming press is just as much to blame as the fanboys in creating unrealistic levels of hype and spin around game releases.
Is there a major title from a large advertiser that hasn't been praised to the skies? Even when it is mediocre or worse? (TW:Rome2 is just the most recent example of this.)
The game developers' marketing people create the spin, the gaming press blitzes the public with it, and the fanboys defend it to the virtual death. And then the consumer ends up suffering for it.
That is the problem in the gaming industry these days.
Didn't get the fibe from reading it as OP's tittle suggested mainly because the overall story was pure on getting criticism.
In fact I have little issue with fanboism as I can make up my own mind. I do mind people who are criticle without any substance or not even constructive. If someone is criticle in a constructive way then I appreciate that. Unfortunately that rarely happens happens in these forums.
I also have to echo the others that said the so-called gaming press is just as much to blame as the fanboys in creating unrealistic levels of hype and spin around game releases.
Is there a major title from a large advertiser that hasn't been praised to the skies? Even when it is mediocre or worse? (TW:Rome2 is just the most recent example of this.)
The game developers' marketing people create the spin, the gaming press blitzes the public with it, and the fanboys defend it to the virtual death. And then the consumer ends up suffering for it.
That is the problem in the gaming industry these days.
This too is true... I mean here we are in this day and age hearing about games that won't be released for YEARSSSSS! Hell not even close to alpha in years, yet they are splashed all over web sites for ad time, likes, clicks or whatever.
Gamers latch onto concepts and start fantasizing about features that may never even enter a game.
Then you have the armchair game reviewers that battle it out on forums because they saw a leaked screenshot.
Originally posted by vandal5627 If it wasn't for fanboyism, he wouldnt have a huge following of people playing his games in the first place.
Wrong... It's one thing to be a fan of a game or genre for that matter... it's another thing to blindly follow a project leading the praise parade right into the dumpster.
Fans are important... Go to any sporting event and you will see that... but look in the stands... no one wants to sit with the guy who is covered in face paint screaming at the players/coach/opposing team... Some people just want to chill out and watch...
Originally posted by vandal5627 If it wasn't for fanboyism, he wouldnt have a huge following of people playing his games in the first place.
Wrong... It's one thing to be a fan of a game or genre for that matter... it's another thing to blindly follow a project leading the praise parade right into the dumpster.
Fans are important... Go to any sporting event and you will see that... but look in the stands... no one wants to sit with the guy who is covered in face paint screaming at the players/coach/opposing team... Some people just want to chill out and watch...
Noone wants to sit next to a guy that is always negative and never happy neither. I'd rather sit next to the face paint guy then negative nancies any day.
You people like to talk about fanboyism taking everything out of context but when someone doesnt agree with what you call criticism you automatically label them a fanboy. Look who's taking things out of contect there.
Originally posted by Roxtarr Anybody who believes their own hype are already flawed and will screw up anyways. Fanboyism is annoying, but not dangerous.
There are definitely developers out there like Derek Smart and that guy from Greed Monger that love the smell of their own farts and think they can do know wrong... They develop a god complex and most of the time their vision is flawed or can be improved with some constructive feedback.
Being a Fan is good, because chances are you are taking an objective look in favor of a particular... being a rabid fanboi where the developer "can do no wrong" IS dangerous, because these are the guys with the 10k+ post counts before a game is in alpha riddling all post on a given forum with puppy dogs and ice cream, or spewing hate to anyone who doesn't drink the punch.
The self doubt is probably not his best choice of words... Perhaps it was more intended as "Strive to constantly do better"... Keeps people sharp... If they get to comfortable or just as bad shut down any outside influence they usually end up with mediocrity.
I am happy to see many "old school" developers take this more humbled approach with developing games...
Guys like Marc Jacobs, and Richard Garriott basically can fund their own projects, but wanted to gauge the market with kickstarter to develop niche products, but heavily rely on feed back... You can even credit SOE for at least appearing to take interest in what the community wants when they have polls on features and leave it to the fans to decide.
Originally posted by vandal5627 If it wasn't for fanboyism, he wouldnt have a huge following of people playing his games in the first place.
Wrong... It's one thing to be a fan of a game or genre for that matter... it's another thing to blindly follow a project leading the praise parade right into the dumpster.
Fans are important... Go to any sporting event and you will see that... but look in the stands... no one wants to sit with the guy who is covered in face paint screaming at the players/coach/opposing team... Some people just want to chill out and watch...
Noone wants to sit next to a guy that is always negative and never happy neither. I'd rather sit next to the face paint guy then negative nancies any day.
You people like to talk about fanboyism taking everything out of context but when someone doesnt agree with what you call criticism you automatically label them a fanboy. Look who's taking things out of contect there.
Maybe not the best example, although I did say in a earlier post how the "everything is shit" person is just as bad, because there is no pleasing them.
Here is a good one...
Take Age of Wushu... then look at a poster like bcbully... Some people would think he is a rabid fanboi of the game... while he may spend a lot of time defending the game, he is also very objective when the company does something out of line... He's just a guy who is a big fan of the game yet grounded enough to be objective.
There was a whole period on this forum with the "GW2 vs. SWTOR" forum wars going on where players where like maniac zealots over products they have never even played yet... Now look at both games today... they are a shell of what they were on release... Where is the fanboi army for these games now?
Be a fan, but be an objective fan... be a supportive fan that wants a project to succeed and prosper.
Originally posted by vandal5627 If it wasn't for fanboyism, he wouldnt have a huge following of people playing his games in the first place.
Wrong... It's one thing to be a fan of a game or genre for that matter... it's another thing to blindly follow a project leading the praise parade right into the dumpster.
Fans are important... Go to any sporting event and you will see that... but look in the stands... no one wants to sit with the guy who is covered in face paint screaming at the players/coach/opposing team... Some people just want to chill out and watch...
Noone wants to sit next to a guy that is always negative and never happy neither. I'd rather sit next to the face paint guy then negative nancies any day.
You people like to talk about fanboyism taking everything out of context but when someone doesnt agree with what you call criticism you automatically label them a fanboy. Look who's taking things out of contect there.
Maybe not the best example, although I did say in a earlier post how the "everything is shit" person is just as bad, because there is no pleasing them.
Here is a good one...
Take Age of Wushu... then look at a poster like bcbully... Some people would think he is a rabid fanboi of the game... while he may spend a lot of time defending the game, he is also very objective when the company does something out of line... He's just a guy who is a big fan of the game yet grounded enough to be objective.
There was a whole period on this forum with the "GW2 vs. SWTOR" froum wars going on where players where like maniac zealots over products they have never even played yet... Now look at both games today... they are a shell of what they were on release... Where is the fanboi army for these games now?
Be a fan, but be an objective fan... be a supportive fan that wants a project to succeed and prosper.
I totally agree with you on this but let's not kid ourselves that these forums will ever come to this. The two extremes will always run rampart on these types of forums and there's nothing anyone can say or do anything about it.
People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
I wouldn't consider someone who buys your product, which pays you bills "useless". There is this concept called "word of mouth" advertising. Sure critique is good, but is not always warranted or valid. Heck, MMORPG.com is a perfect example of this. Some people just equate their taste in gameplay to equal the industry norm. Any thread that discusses the trinity, gear, raids, pvp, etc will show you this. Metacritic will show you this. Yes Metacritic is trash to gauge if a game is actually good or not (like these forums), however many potential sequels of games have been canceled or in jeopardy of not being made due to Metatcritic (which is known for unwarranted or invalid criticism).
I totally agree with you on this but let's not kid ourselves that these forums will ever come to this. The two extremes will always run rampart on these types of forums and there's nothing anyone can say or do anything about it.
Yeah .. the only thing left to do is to enjoy the fireworks.
I totally agree with you on this but let's not kid ourselves that these forums will ever come to this. The two extremes will always run rampart on these types of forums and there's nothing anyone can say or do anything about it.
Yeah .. the only thing left to do is to enjoy the fireworks.
MMORPG.com definitely has the best fireworks. Imagine how dull it would be if we all just learned to get along. Ugh! If I wanted to waste my time online being bored out of my tiny mind, I'd go and play an MMO or something.
Originally posted by Wighty Take Age of Wushu... then look at a poster like bcbully... Some people would think he is a rabid fanboi of the game... while he may spend a lot of time defending the game, he is also very objective when the company does something out of line... He's just a guy who is a big fan of the game yet grounded enough to be objective.
Reading some of the posts in this thread is an amazing exercise on how people can read what someone says, take it, spin it completely out of context and run off into the weeds, responding as though they'd said something else entirely - in some cases, in a clear attempt to dismiss it so the poster can maintain their favored position.
Raph is quite clear on what he means. He has a long history in the industry, actually working on these games... not just sitting on forums talking about them. Whether you like the games the guy has worked on or not is irrelevant. The fact remains he has hands on experience in the industry and has seen first-hand how the things he's discussing can affect an individual and/or a project.
He doesn't say "fans are bad". He says people who do nothing but feed your ego with remarks about how awesome your product is are dangerous, especially if you buy into what they're telling you. He's preaching humility here, folks. To not ever believe that you can't improve, or that your product is great simply because you have an army of fans telling you so.
He's saying to always value the negative feedback you get becaus something in the game precipitated that kind of reaction.
He's saying to value the feedback you're receiving - even when it's insulting - because the individual cared enough about the game to take the time to write their thoughts.
He's quite clear in what he's saying. I really don't understand how so many people can be reading the same article and yet be so completely off the mark in their responses/rebuttals.
There was an article MMORPG.com put up some time ago where they talk about the importance of reading comprehension. That would be a great read for some folks around here right about now.
Basically it is what mature people understand. Not much news here.
Those lacking these lessons will not likely learn by being told but rather through the experience of the futility of their actions. We can always hope it sinks in for a few.
Just saw this blog update this morning. Good stuff!
We'll actually have Raph here tomorrow for a live forum Q&A, so if you have any questions on anything hes worked on, please check out the details here.
Reading some of the posts in this thread is an amazing exercise on how people can read what someone says, take it, spin it completely out of context and run off into the weeds, responding as though they'd said something else entirely - in some cases, in a clear attempt to dismiss it so the poster can maintain their favored position.
Small suggestion: if you start your post like this, it would be much easier on my cluttered brain if you picked a post and replied to it specifically so we (or at least I) weren't left trying to puzzle who and what exactly you found objectionable.
( sorry for the edits: I should have tried harder to sort these words into a single coherent thought before posting )
Star Trek Online. The fanboism was so rampant for this game, and look at it. A hollow shell of the Star Trek IP. Oddly enough, it wasn't the Star Trek fans who were the fanbois. It was the Star Trek fans who were trying to wrestle it away from mmo fanbois and beta seeker toadies.
LOTRO. My guild and I were some of the most vocal critics of the direction LOTRO took before Alpha. The small size and lack of 'sandboxiness' seemed to do the IP a disservice. And while the game was somewhat successful, I still believe it would have been more successful had the Fanbois not won the day.
SWG. I remember the row after NGE hit, and all the fanbois defending SOE for gutting and destroying the game. I'll never forget these players for providing cover for SOE.
SWTOR: Fanbois wrecked efforts to implement after launch changes that needed to happen, and also gave undeserved praise for changes that should never have happened. See now how fanbois are praising this new Space xpac when it is in fact nearly as bad as the rail shooter as far as what the game needs.
I agree with Raph. To be honest, if I were developing a game, I'd hardly ever listen to anything fanbois say.
Oh and I forgot that right now, Fanbois are really in danger of wrecking Elder Scrolls Online. Yes-men and toadies are the bane of game development.
SWG. I remember the row after NGE hit, and all the fanbois defending SOE for gutting and destroying the game. I'll never forget these players for providing cover for SOE.
Weird. I don't think I saw anyone defend the NGE. All I remember are the constant Han Solo quotes of, "Get out of here kid, this thing is gunna blow!"
Comments
I agree with you Dave.
I write music as well as libretti/"book" and there is no self doubt at all. But there is a sense that things can always be better and that constnatly learning and honing your craft will spur you onward.
I belong to a group that workshops new opera and new music theater and I've rarely experienced people who had self doubt about there abilities. More like doubt about whether this is a good use of their time.
I know singers who can get up on stage at the drop of a dime so confident are they in their instrument but they might doubt whether or not the profession is worth it.
I think he could have reworded that. Or maybe he's just speaking about himself.
I can say that believing in one's own press isn't necessarily a good thing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I also have to echo the others that said the so-called gaming press is just as much to blame as the fanboys in creating unrealistic levels of hype and spin around game releases.
Is there a major title from a large advertiser that hasn't been praised to the skies? Even when it is mediocre or worse? (TW:Rome2 is just the most recent example of this.)
The game developers' marketing people create the spin, the gaming press blitzes the public with it, and the fanboys defend it to the virtual death. And then the consumer ends up suffering for it.
That is the problem in the gaming industry these days.
Thanks for sharing was a intresting read.
Didn't get the fibe from reading it as OP's tittle suggested mainly because the overall story was pure on getting criticism.
In fact I have little issue with fanboism as I can make up my own mind. I do mind people who are criticle without any substance or not even constructive. If someone is criticle in a constructive way then I appreciate that. Unfortunately that rarely happens happens in these forums.
This too is true... I mean here we are in this day and age hearing about games that won't be released for YEARSSSSS! Hell not even close to alpha in years, yet they are splashed all over web sites for ad time, likes, clicks or whatever.
Gamers latch onto concepts and start fantasizing about features that may never even enter a game.
Then you have the armchair game reviewers that battle it out on forums because they saw a leaked screenshot.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Wrong... It's one thing to be a fan of a game or genre for that matter... it's another thing to blindly follow a project leading the praise parade right into the dumpster.
Fans are important... Go to any sporting event and you will see that... but look in the stands... no one wants to sit with the guy who is covered in face paint screaming at the players/coach/opposing team... Some people just want to chill out and watch...
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Noone wants to sit next to a guy that is always negative and never happy neither. I'd rather sit next to the face paint guy then negative nancies any day.
You people like to talk about fanboyism taking everything out of context but when someone doesnt agree with what you call criticism you automatically label them a fanboy. Look who's taking things out of contect there.
ROFL. Sometimes in these dark forums you can spot a tiny speck of gold.
That said I think Raph Koster can talk the talk. Hopefully tomorrow he'll be walking the walk.
Mostly a good blog, I've found his writing useful. But I'd correct what he says about audience, perhaps tomorrow.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
There are definitely developers out there like Derek Smart and that guy from Greed Monger that love the smell of their own farts and think they can do know wrong... They develop a god complex and most of the time their vision is flawed or can be improved with some constructive feedback.
Being a Fan is good, because chances are you are taking an objective look in favor of a particular... being a rabid fanboi where the developer "can do no wrong" IS dangerous, because these are the guys with the 10k+ post counts before a game is in alpha riddling all post on a given forum with puppy dogs and ice cream, or spewing hate to anyone who doesn't drink the punch.
The self doubt is probably not his best choice of words... Perhaps it was more intended as "Strive to constantly do better"... Keeps people sharp... If they get to comfortable or just as bad shut down any outside influence they usually end up with mediocrity.
I am happy to see many "old school" developers take this more humbled approach with developing games...
Guys like Marc Jacobs, and Richard Garriott basically can fund their own projects, but wanted to gauge the market with kickstarter to develop niche products, but heavily rely on feed back... You can even credit SOE for at least appearing to take interest in what the community wants when they have polls on features and leave it to the fans to decide.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Maybe not the best example, although I did say in a earlier post how the "everything is shit" person is just as bad, because there is no pleasing them.
Here is a good one...
Take Age of Wushu... then look at a poster like bcbully... Some people would think he is a rabid fanboi of the game... while he may spend a lot of time defending the game, he is also very objective when the company does something out of line... He's just a guy who is a big fan of the game yet grounded enough to be objective.
There was a whole period on this forum with the "GW2 vs. SWTOR" forum wars going on where players where like maniac zealots over products they have never even played yet... Now look at both games today... they are a shell of what they were on release... Where is the fanboi army for these games now?
Be a fan, but be an objective fan... be a supportive fan that wants a project to succeed and prosper.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
I totally agree with you on this but let's not kid ourselves that these forums will ever come to this. The two extremes will always run rampart on these types of forums and there's nothing anyone can say or do anything about it.
Awesome post. +1
I wouldn't consider someone who buys your product, which pays you bills "useless". There is this concept called "word of mouth" advertising. Sure critique is good, but is not always warranted or valid. Heck, MMORPG.com is a perfect example of this. Some people just equate their taste in gameplay to equal the industry norm. Any thread that discusses the trinity, gear, raids, pvp, etc will show you this. Metacritic will show you this. Yes Metacritic is trash to gauge if a game is actually good or not (like these forums), however many potential sequels of games have been canceled or in jeopardy of not being made due to Metatcritic (which is known for unwarranted or invalid criticism).
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Yeah .. the only thing left to do is to enjoy the fireworks.
MMORPG.com definitely has the best fireworks. Imagine how dull it would be if we all just learned to get along. Ugh! If I wanted to waste my time online being bored out of my tiny mind, I'd go and play an MMO or something.
I disagree!
(or maybe I don't ... I'm waffling)
You got to be kidding me.
My computer is better than yours.
Reading some of the posts in this thread is an amazing exercise on how people can read what someone says, take it, spin it completely out of context and run off into the weeds, responding as though they'd said something else entirely - in some cases, in a clear attempt to dismiss it so the poster can maintain their favored position.
Raph is quite clear on what he means. He has a long history in the industry, actually working on these games... not just sitting on forums talking about them. Whether you like the games the guy has worked on or not is irrelevant. The fact remains he has hands on experience in the industry and has seen first-hand how the things he's discussing can affect an individual and/or a project.
He doesn't say "fans are bad". He says people who do nothing but feed your ego with remarks about how awesome your product is are dangerous, especially if you buy into what they're telling you. He's preaching humility here, folks. To not ever believe that you can't improve, or that your product is great simply because you have an army of fans telling you so.
He's saying to always value the negative feedback you get becaus something in the game precipitated that kind of reaction.
He's saying to value the feedback you're receiving - even when it's insulting - because the individual cared enough about the game to take the time to write their thoughts.
He's quite clear in what he's saying. I really don't understand how so many people can be reading the same article and yet be so completely off the mark in their responses/rebuttals.
There was an article MMORPG.com put up some time ago where they talk about the importance of reading comprehension. That would be a great read for some folks around here right about now.
Basically it is what mature people understand. Not much news here.
Those lacking these lessons will not likely learn by being told but rather through the experience of the futility of their actions. We can always hope it sinks in for a few.
You stay sassy!
Just saw this blog update this morning. Good stuff!
We'll actually have Raph here tomorrow for a live forum Q&A, so if you have any questions on anything hes worked on, please check out the details here.
Small suggestion: if you start your post like this, it would be much easier on my cluttered brain if you picked a post and replied to it specifically so we (or at least I) weren't left trying to puzzle who and what exactly you found objectionable.
( sorry for the edits: I should have tried harder to sort these words into a single coherent thought before posting )
Fanboism has injured or outright destroyed games:
Weird. I don't think I saw anyone defend the NGE. All I remember are the constant Han Solo quotes of, "Get out of here kid, this thing is gunna blow!"
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor