I'd like to emphasize that I really don't think there's not many players like me. Just because a lot of people are playing the current offering of games doesn't mean that it's what they want; I just don't think they have much of a choice in the matter, there's not much to choose from. (not there's not a lot of GAMES to choose from, now there's more than ever of those). Personally I prefer just not to partake at all, both because I don't want to and to make a statement.
That is just bad logic. No one has to play MMORPGs if they are not fun. It is not like there aren't ten thousand others type of entertainment. And don't tell me you think players have to play MMORPGs or die.
They play them because they like them, and are having fun.
Every single game i play is fun. Why? Because if it is, i am out of there in 30 second.
And you simply has no evidence to back up "i really don't think there's not many players like me". It is an opinion based on nothing.
I'd like to emphasize that I really don't think there's not many players like me. Just because a lot of people are playing the current offering of games doesn't mean that it's what they want; I just don't think they have much of a choice in the matter, there's not much to choose from. (not there's not a lot of GAMES to choose from, now there's more than ever of those). Personally I prefer just not to partake at all, both because I don't want to and to make a statement.
That is just bad logic. No one has to play MMORPGs if they are not fun. It is not like there aren't ten thousand others type of entertainment. And don't tell me you think players have to play MMORPGs or die.
They play them because they like them, and are having fun.
Every single game i play is fun. Why? Because if it is, i am out of there in 30 second.
And you simply has no evidence to back up "i really don't think there's not many players like me". It is an opinion based on nothing.
Your statements are just as equally opinion based. However I don't think opinions are based on "nothing", we obviously have different experiences. I wish you'd spend more time playing these games you enjoy so much instead of trolling us who are trying to get a game we like made.
GTAV, a game with over the top needless violence, gangsters, drugs, money, strip clubs, fast cars, and guns. Sounds like a niche market doesn't it...yet it is so successful to the casual crowd AND the die hard rockstar/gta crowd.
I think a lot of people read this list and think to themselves, I don't want to do that, therefore this game is not for me, when in fact most of the things on the list are simply features and never the main content in the game. I think that is what makes GTA so good, the fact that you have options in how to play the game, it's not linear. Why should MMOs be any different? I find all the ideas on the list interesting because it is something different. All other game genres are evolving and progressing, why is it that the MMORPG has been stuck at the same place for 10 years?
GTAV, a game with over the top needless violence, gangsters, drugs, money, strip clubs, fast cars, and guns. Sounds like a niche market doesn't it...yet it is so successful to the casual crowd AND the die hard rockstar/gta crowd.
I think a lot of people read this list and think to themselves, I don't want to do that, therefore this game is not for me, when in fact most of the things on the list are simply features and never the main content in the game. I think that is what makes GTA so good, the fact that you have options in how to play the game, it's not linear. Why should MMOs be any different? I find all the ideas on the list interesting because it is something different. All other game genres are evolving and progressing, why is it that the MMORPG has been stuck at the same place for 10 years?
Glad that you get it. Scope is good, scope is what allows a game to offer options that you may not care for while still offering lots of things that you do want. MMORPG's (at least subscription-based ones) have the ability to get you to play a single game to the exclusion of everything else, so why not offer greater scope?
GTAV, a game with over the top needless violence, gangsters, drugs, money, strip clubs, fast cars, and guns. Sounds like a niche market doesn't it...yet it is so successful to the casual crowd AND the die hard rockstar/gta crowd.
I think a lot of people read this list and think to themselves, I don't want to do that, therefore this game is not for me, when in fact most of the things on the list are simply features and never the main content in the game. I think that is what makes GTA so good, the fact that you have options in how to play the game, it's not linear. Why should MMOs be any different? I find all the ideas on the list interesting because it is something different. All other game genres are evolving and progressing, why is it that the MMORPG has been stuck at the same place for 10 years?
Maybe this is all they got. This is the best they can do. It cost too much. It's too complex for mmorpg players.
Im sure their R&D departments (lol) are experimenting with new excuses as we speak.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
GTAV, a game with over the top needless violence, gangsters, drugs, money, strip clubs, fast cars, and guns. Sounds like a niche market doesn't it...yet it is so successful to the casual crowd AND the die hard rockstar/gta crowd.
I think a lot of people read this list and think to themselves, I don't want to do that, therefore this game is not for me, when in fact most of the things on the list are simply features and never the main content in the game. I think that is what makes GTA so good, the fact that you have options in how to play the game, it's not linear. Why should MMOs be any different? I find all the ideas on the list interesting because it is something different. All other game genres are evolving and progressing, why is it that the MMORPG has been stuck at the same place for 10 years?
Glad that you get it. Scope is good, scope is what allows a game to offer options that you may not care for while still offering lots of things that you do want. MMORPG's (at least subscription-based ones) have the ability to get you to play a single game to the exclusion of everything else, so why not offer greater scope?
So you buy the next game.
Do initial sales bring in more than all other sales combined? If so, then why waste resources expanding a game, rather than making and selling a new game for initial sales.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
What I want in an mmo is firstly an economy which actually allows me to make real cash from things I craft or find in the game. Can you imagine this possibility, I think that any games maker who actually enables players to make real money from their game playing will make a game that permanently smashes all other mmos that exist.
Secondly I want to be able to craft things that I can use rather than worthless junk and I want items in the game, lots of hidden items in the most remote random locations. I want worth while treasure chests that can be found after killing a stack of mobs.
Sigh.....I can understand if you don't like my ideas thats your opinion but the level of misinterpretation here on your part is simply astounding.
1st) You complain about my crafting ideas.....I already argued my premise with someone else in here. You like combat don't you? Why do you like combat? It's got preparation, it's got strategy, it's got timing, it's got cooperation etc etc. My premise is to design crafting systems that are equally engaging. Not just some collect this and this item hit a button and wait for it to be complete. I want crafting to be something you do for the SAKE of crafting and the reward you get from it. Not just a side activity you do to enhance the "main game" i.e. combat. I want crafting and other activities to be games all in their own that are worth playing for their own merit and I want them to carry enough weight in the game that you can exclusively do those and still feel satisfied with the game. If you can't appreciate that then I really don't know what's wrong with you. Maybe you don't like being engaged or you don't like doing stuff other than fighting I don't know.
2nd) I can't believe I'm doing this again...I already had a lengthy argument about it. I like Open-world AND Instanced/Organized PvP. Why? Because they each have their merits. Open-world is more immersive, massive, spontaneous and epic in scale, but is prone to zerging, imbalance, technical limitations and did I mention zerging? Instanced/Organized PVP can be balanced, skill-based, more organized, less technical hiccups and can make for a great Esport (which is why I bring up using MOBA elements because they make for great Esports but can't do alot of things that MMORPG's CAN do), but they are unimmersive, smaller scale and pretty much belong in themeparks. You don't like instanced PVP? That's fine, my perfect game would have both kinds.
I want scope and depth in my MMORPG, and I think that's something everyone can appreciate, even you if you took the time to comprehend what I'm saying.
Well, you put enough efforts to make your plan prone to misinterpretations. You suggest improving things and give poor examples of ways of improvement or just don’t give examples at all. It’s either vague or bad, that’s not how you make ppl interested. Describe how exactly coal mining can be fun and still be a natural part of main game. You don’t know how to do that? Devs too, probably.
If crafting process has some gameplay, that’s fine, but it should not break immersion. I like to be engaged but I CAN’T be engaged in house building if it’s just replaced with some re-skinned Tetris minigame. Growing crop should not require great eye-hand reflexes, ppl don’t farm wheat for adrenalin rush. If you can’t suggest a way to make it engaging and sensible process, I prefer old “prepare-mats-meet-conditions-press-button” crafting in solid world over some minigames bundle. At least I’ll get fun from preparations, it’s better than nothing.
Platformer as entrance quest for dungeon is not immersive or engaging either.
As for kinds of PVP, you know, immersion-breakers work even if you personally avoid them. If you randomly put space ships in high-fantasy game, it will ruin atmosphere even for ppl who won’t get a ride. If a healer jumps in moba-styled arena and suddenly choose role of killer, it doesn’t fit, it’s not the same character which gamer developed. If I mastered fireball spell I should have it on all arenas, or it’s not my character. If a fragile fairy challenge our team for a duel where she’s gonna be bulky tank I either bail out or accept immersion-breaker. Lose-lose situation for me.
You said you want PVP with character you developed yourself, but since characters are stripped of all gear and levels, all your development won’t be seen. Basically, it will be only skin and name. Not you character but some clone. You want to play YOUR character and suggest to solve this issue by turning it into some blank ingot with name. How exactly this make sense?
Oh and zerging is fine if combat mechanics allows 20 skilled ppl to beat 200 unskilled ones.
Zerging is just a social way to prepare for a battle, instead of getting more training in fencing you get more cannon fodder.
On another thought, you can actually add sports in MMO. Organize some kind of sport competitions, make any rules you want, just don’t call it or make it look PVP, like we don’t call soccer team soldiers and don’t require killing goalkeeper to win a game. It will be challenging and won’t break immersion. You can even have server-wide known sport stars.
I don’t understand why ppl bother to come here and say “This idea is not practical devs won’t do this” It’s a dream game thread, if such game existed TS would play it and don’t write here.
Well, you put enough efforts to make your plan prone to misinterpretations. You suggest improving things and give poor examples of ways of improvement or just don’t give examples at all. It’s either vague or bad, that’s not how you make ppl interested. Describe how exactly coal mining can be fun and still be a natural part of main game. You don’t know how to do that? Devs too, probably.
If crafting process has some gameplay, that’s fine, but it should not break immersion. I like to be engaged but I CAN’T be engaged in house building if it’s just replaced with some re-skinned Tetris minigame. Growing crop should not require great eye-hand reflexes, ppl don’t farm wheat for adrenalin rush. If you can’t suggest a way to make it engaging and sensible process, I prefer old “prepare-mats-meet-conditions-press-button” crafting in solid world over some minigames bundle. At least I’ll get fun from preparations, it’s better than nothing.
Platformer as entrance quest for dungeon is not immersive or engaging either.
As for kinds of PVP, you know, immersion-breakers work even if you personally avoid them. If you randomly put space ships in high-fantasy game, it will ruin atmosphere even for ppl who won’t get a ride. If a healer jumps in moba-styled arena and suddenly choose role of killer, it doesn’t fit, it’s not the same character which gamer developed. If I mastered fireball spell I should have it on all arenas, or it’s not my character. If a fragile fairy challenge our team for a duel where she’s gonna be bulky tank I either bail out or accept immersion-breaker. Lose-lose situation for me.
You said you want PVP with character you developed yourself, but since characters are stripped of all gear and levels, all your development won’t be seen. Basically, it will be only skin and name. Not you character but some clone. You want to play YOUR character and suggest to solve this issue by turning it into some blank ingot with name. How exactly this make sense?
Oh and zerging is fine if combat mechanics allows 20 skilled ppl to beat 200 unskilled ones.
Zerging is just a social way to prepare for a battle, instead of getting more training in fencing you get more cannon fodder.
On another thought, you can actually add sports in MMO. Organize some kind of sport competitions, make any rules you want, just don’t call it or make it look PVP, like we don’t call soccer team soldiers and don’t require killing goalkeeper to win a game. It will be challenging and won’t break immersion. You can even have server-wide known sport stars.
I don’t understand why ppl bother to come here and say “This idea is not practical devs won’t do this” It’s a dream game thread, if such game existed TS would play it and don’t write here.
[mod edit]
Just to quickly get this out of the way I don't see how platforming can't be immersive when it comes to MMORPG's. Think about any kind of fantasy story, movie, show etc. Oftentimes the terrain itself can present just as difficult a challenge as the enemies the characters end up fighting. Nor do I think it can't fit; Zelda games have been using platforming in dungeons and the gameworld to great effect for years and it's not unimmersive or unfun. Now i'm not saying MMORPG's should go so far as to use it as much as Zelda but it would be a nice change of pace to include little challenges like that in the main gameplay. GW2 had lots of brilliant and fun jumping puzzles that I very much enjoyed doing and wish they could've mixed some of that into the main game. Having to navigate and find ways to get past rough terrain isn't unimmersive; if done right it can even add immersion (and variety) to the game.
Now as for crafting.... Specific examples of what I have in mind... Well I read a very good post made by someone who obviously understands the potential crafting can have and made a detailed analysis of systems in already existing games (particularly EQII) and makes suggestions on how to make it better. You should give it a read:
It's true that even EQII could do the crafting better and I have a few extra suggestions on my part:
-Make crafting interface/process look cooler. Even if something is engaging it you may not appreciate the activity if you can't look cool doing it. For example when blacksmithing make different levels of successful hammer strikes release bigger sparks from the metal as you strike it (kind of like the visual stimulation you get from hitting the right note perfectly on Guitar Hero). Presentation is important. When you open a big chest in Zelda it has a much more epic cutscene and music than when you open a small one, huge success on producing a high quality item should have equal level of presentation.
-To add depth to the system, make working with different materials have different properties and thus present different challenges that you need to overcome with your skills. Like say when working with a delicate type metal, you should aim for softer hammer strikes as opposed to working with harder strikes.
-Include "group crafting". I.e. working in groups to produce the very best top tier quality items which will require different players to be performing different functions at the same time as you and you will be able to correct eachother's mistake and/or screw eachother up if you don't have proper timing (bear in mind I'm not saying the timing should be super stringent but should feel close to or akin to the coordination it takes to run a dungeon). Why not? People work together in the real world on production of things and one of the main draws/challenges of combat in MMORPG is group content. Why not extend that to crafting? Sure it can be very frustrating to have to depend on others, especially when they suck but isn't raiding the same way? Now bear in mind this idea depend very heavily on what the rest of the game looks like,how the economy works etc because it could be very unfun/imbalanced if this kind of system is not implemented as part of a very well thought out and interconnected system. It definitely shouldn't be the only way to get ALL the best items (so people are forced to do it) but you should definitely make the rewards appealing enough that crafters will want to take part. Please take this last one especially with a grain of salt because I'm not a game designer but it's definitely a "new" and original idea of mine (never heard or seen of it before) and I see potential in it.
-Having to "specialize" within each profession by choosing to learn and upgrade certain "skills" that you use during the crafting process that confer certain bonuses/qualities to the finished product. This allows more interdependence, less potential for inflation and plays into the "group crafting" system".
*Edit: I don't agree with the other thread's point that higher level crafters should be able to produce low quality items easier and faster than low level crafters. Experience and familiarity with the system/crafting process and the materials involved should provide all the ease needed to reward the devoted crafters; you don't need to reward them even further and make crafting even more unapproachable to new crafters by giving high level crafters even more ways to flood the market.
*Edit: i just realized you asked me for a specific example of how to make mining interesting. Funny enough I actually think that's one of the easier systems explain. Well the success of making mining engaging is contingent on the gameworld itself. The real challenge/game element of mining ore is first of all FINDING IT. If it all spawns in the same places on a timer or you can often just randomly come across it without trying to then there's no "game" involved in mining. Miners should have skills that help them track and uncover locations to mine for ore (not some passive tracker that they can just leave on but a set of skills that they have to actively and mindfully be utilizing to find and uncover it). Then once they find the ore they can MAYBE get like a bonus amount of ore by executing a minigame properly (though I don't think that is entirely necessary because the act of finding the ore is engaging and fun all in of itself, especially if the gameworld that you're searching for it in is well designed).
Finally, about the instanced PVP/Esports thing. I think this just comes down to your own personal preferences in games. If I hated instanced PVP then I'd probably feel the same way you do, but I don't. I really see and enjoy the merits of both kinds of PVP. And it's not that crazy; games have been including instanced PVP in their games for a long time now and alot of people like it, but it can be done better. You say there's nothing unique about having your character go into a battleground as a blank slate as everyone else but that's simply not true. MOBA's have elements that let you evolve your character over the course of a match,that's much more engaging than going in with the best/worst stuff and facerolling/getting facerolled. People start on equal footing and through their skill get stronger than the others and win the game. The difference is that the character you're using is YOUR character, he looks how YOU want and has your unique character name. If you're a "battleground" star people will recognize you in the gameworld and you'll feel awesome for it. I like what MOBA's have done because they have developed a PVP system where players don't have to grind out gear in order to compete and where player skill truly shows. This is both fair and fun (assuming that matchmaking puts players of close to equal skill against eachother) and by including a potentially true e-sport worthy part of the game in your MMORPG you create potential for some of your "devoted" playerbase to make a living by playing your game (through streaming, coaching, commentating, winning tournaments etc). I see this as an evolution for instanced PVP, if you don't like organized instanced PVP that's fine I can understand that (it IS immersion breaking, especially if not placed in the game properly) but as for me I enjoy it and would like to see it evolve.
I do like the the idea of adding lore-inspired "sports" into the game as well and kind of alluded to that in #5 (like mount breeding and racing; i drew inspiration from FFVII's chocobo races on this) but the truth is that there's hardly anything as satisfying as bashing eachothers faces in so I still think instanced PVP should be included and improved over what's currently available (by adopting MOBA-style elements).
Just to quickly get this out of the way I don't see how platforming can't be immersive when it comes to MMORPG's. Think about any kind of fantasy story, movie, show etc. Oftentimes the terrain itself can present just as difficult a challenge as the enemies the characters end up fighting. Nor do I think it can't fit; Zelda games have been using platforming in dungeons and the gameworld to great effect for years and it's not unimmersive or unfun. Now i'm not saying MMORPG's should go so far as to use it as much as Zelda but it would be a nice change of pace to include little challenges like that in the main gameplay. GW2 had lots of brilliant and fun jumping puzzles that I very much enjoyed doing and wish they could've mixed some of that into the main game. Having to navigate and find ways to get past rough terrain isn't unimmersive; if done right it can even add immersion (and variety) to the game.
In Zelda jumping is natural, you can use it anywhere, even in fight. If a wizard in your MMORPG will be able to jump over pack of mobs, showering them with fireballs in the air then platformer will be fine too. If 95% of time jumping doesnt affect gameplay and suddenly you are required to show pro parkour skills its inconsistent like offering to play chess in the middle of firefight in FPS. If game attracts ppl who is not interested in platformers and make them play platformer its same wrong as current trend to attract solo-players and force them to group and vise versa.
Now as for crafting.... Specific examples of what I have in mind... Well I read a very good post made by someone who obviously understands the potential crafting can have and made a detailed analysis of systems in already existing games (particularly EQII) and makes suggestions on how to make it better. You should give it a read:
It's true that even EQII could do the crafting better and I have a few extra suggestions on my part:
-Make crafting interface/process look cooler. Even if something is engaging it you may not appreciate the activity if you can't look cool doing it. For example when blacksmithing make different levels of successful hammer strikes release bigger sparks from the metal as you strike it (kind of like the visual stimulation you get from hitting the right note perfectly on Guitar Hero). Presentation is important. When you open a big chest in Zelda it has a much more epic cutscene and music than when you open a small one, huge success on producing a high quality item should have equal level of presentation.
If everything is cool then nothing is cool. Big chests are more rare, Guitar Hero is about show business, its ok to make them cool, if you make unhurried process like herb gathering look epic it will be a bit too much, and ppl will get used to it anyway after 100th time, so you'll end up with tons of unneeded flashy things on screen. Its ok to have lightnings around smith, making rare Sword of Doom, but for common Dagger of Noobness few tiny sparks is enough. Moderateness is important.
-To add depth to the system, make working with different materials have different properties and thus present different challenges that you need to overcome with your skills. Like say when working with a delicate type metal, you should aim for softer hammer strikes as opposed to working with harder strikes.
Sure, thats consistent. But it will be hard to create sensible challenges for many processes and mats.
-Include "group crafting". I.e. working in groups to produce the very best top tier quality items which will require different players to be performing different functions at the same time as you and you will be able to correct eachother's mistake and/or screw eachother up if you don't have proper timing (bear in mind I'm not saying the timing should be super stringent but should feel close to or akin to the coordination it takes to run a dungeon). Why not? People work together in the real world on production of things and one of the main draws/challenges of combat in MMORPG is group content. Why not extend that to crafting? Sure it can be very frustrating to have to depend on others, especially when they suck but isn't raiding the same way? Now bear in mind this idea depend very heavily on what the rest of the game looks like,how the economy works etc because it could be very unfun/imbalanced if this kind of system is not implemented as part of a very well thought out and interconnected system. It definitely shouldn't be the only way to get ALL the best items (so people are forced to do it) but you should definitely make the rewards appealing enough that crafters will want to take part. Please take this last one especially with a grain of salt because I'm not a game designer but it's definitely a "new" and original idea of mine (never heard or seen of it before) and I see potential in it.
Its ok if not overdone. Group training in Age of Wushu worked fine but only because you could get same result solo, just slower.
-Having to "specialize" within each profession by choosing to learn and upgrade certain "skills" that you use during the crafting process that confer certain bonuses/qualities to the finished product. This allows more interdependence, less potential for inflation and plays into the "group crafting" system".
Its ok if you can balance bonuses.
*Edit: I don't agree with the other thread's point that higher level crafters should be able to produce low quality items easier and faster than low level crafters. Experience and familiarity with the system/crafting process and the materials involved should provide all the ease needed to reward the devoted crafters; you don't need to reward them even further and make crafting even more unapproachable to new crafters by giving high level crafters even more ways to flood the market.
Again, MMORPG is about progression of character and community. Dont hurt one for the sake of another. Levels should matter, just do it smart way. Lets say high level smith can make low-grade dagger only 1.5 time faster than newbie but newcomer gets penalty during crafting of super-duper epic sword, like maybe a chance to fail even if everything was done right. If pro-player jumps on 1lv alt and crafts like expert smith, because he is very experienced, that would ruin character progression.
*Edit: i just realized you asked me for a specific example of how to make mining interesting. Funny enough I actually think that's one of the easier systems explain. Well the success of making mining engaging is contingent on the gameworld itself. The real challenge/game element of mining ore is first of all FINDING IT. If it all spawns in the same places on a timer or you can often just randomly come across it without trying to then there's no "game" involved in mining. Miners should have skills that help them track and uncover locations to mine for ore (not some passive tracker that they can just leave on but a set of skills that they have to actively and mindfully be utilizing to find and uncover it). Then once they find the ore they can MAYBE get like a bonus amount of ore by executing a minigame properly (though I don't think that is entirely necessary because the act of finding the ore is engaging and fun all in of itself, especially if the gameworld that you're searching for it in is well designed).
This way is fine, except minigame for bonus.
Finally, about the instanced PVP/Esports thing. I think this just comes down to your own personal preferences in games. If I hated instanced PVP then I'd probably feel the same way you do, but I don't. I really see and enjoy the merits of both kinds of PVP. And it's not that crazy; games have been including instanced PVP in their games for a long time now and alot of people like it, but it can be done better.
Games've been including instanced everything for a long time and suck because of it. Sudden change of rules is an immersion breaker.
You say there's nothing unique about having your character go into a battleground as a blank slate as everyone else but that's simply not true. MOBA's have elements that let you evolve your character over the course of a match,that's much more engaging than going in with the best/worst stuff and facerolling/getting facerolled. People start on equal footing and through their skill get stronger than the others and win the game. The difference is that the character you're using is YOUR character, he looks how YOU want and has your unique character name.
Wrong, I said that it wouldnt be your character, because its not same entity you developed during game, its just skin and name.
If you're a "battleground" star people will recognize you in the gameworld and you'll feel awesome for it. I like what MOBA's have done because they have developed a PVP system where players don't have to grind out gear in order to compete and where player skill truly shows. This is both fair and fun (assuming that matchmaking puts players of close to equal skill against eachother) and by including a potentially true e-sport worthy part of the game in your MMORPG you create potential for some of your "devoted" playerbase to make a living by playing your game (through streaming, coaching, commentating, winning tournaments etc). I see this as an evolution for instanced PVP, if you don't like organized instanced PVP that's fine I can understand that (it IS immersion breaking, especially if not placed in the game properly) but as for me I enjoy it and would like to see it evolve.
Basically, you suggest to add unfitting element to game world to please a bigger crowd. Just like current MMOs are trying to cramp everything in one game to please all. Its annoying to have alien elements in a world where you are trying to "live". Just look at complaints of ArchAge players about cars and modern clothes in fantasy world.
I do like the the idea of adding lore-inspired "sports" into the game as well and kind of alluded to that in #5 (like mount breeding and racing; i drew inspiration from FFVII's chocobo races on this) but the truth is that there's hardly anything as satisfying as bashing eachothers faces in so I still think instanced PVP should be included and improved over what's currently available (by adopting MOBA-style elements).
Boxing is sport too. Just add team boxing or swordfight tournament or group magic fight, with all coaching, commentating etc you want, but dont make it look like PVP. If slow grey-bearded wizard tells about his success as super agile scout in PVP, thats immersion breaker. Dont offer me to play poker in the middle of Go tournament then to share first prize between poker and Go champions.
Oh, I know: Proxy Battles. Any player can buy some 1-time pet, put his crest on it, make a bet and throw a furball in a small arena, then play it like moba character.
Words alone can not portray the disgust I hold towards the various comments expressing things along the lines of "developers not wanting to incorporate unnecessary depth" and "players no longer desiring such".
This is absolute bullshit, and while current game sales may lead you to believe otherwise, taking a look at the various community forums goes to show you that it's not a matter of lacking desire; it's a matter of lazy developers knowing that they can get away with releasing watered down games because people want to game. You don't have to compete when the other developers are doing the same, exact, thing...so why waste the resources when you know that another watered down product will sell amongst the ravenous gaming community?
The GW 2 Guru forums were filled with depth related concepts and ideas that obtained scores of positive feedback, right down to the trivial campfire. There were several conceptual ideas focused around this minute, and extremely trivial, concept ranging from a moral boost to purely role playing elements such as NPC-like chatter amongst the characters based upon your personal story.
People want depth, we just aren't getting it because they know that the majority are willing to try their luck at watered down variants, thus leaving the developers free to produce this deluded content due to a lack of other developers giving them anything to truly compete against. If you can make heaps of money by giving someone a mediocre product...why would you spend the money to give them a high quality product?
With that said, I might not agree with everything that the OP has presented...but I am one who has been ravenously craving a MMORPG with actual depth and an adult oriented storyline that wasn't watered down to cater to every age group due to fearful backlash of morally hypocritical parents and elderly folk trapped in the bible.
Something else I seen stated was that people don't like non-humanoid races and this too is a fabricated option based off absolutely nothing factual. Infact, when WoW was in development...people were BEGGING Blizzard to make the Naga or Nerubian a playable race. Blizzard considered, I believe, the Nerubian but ultimately decided upon the Forsaken.
The reason was NOT because people do not like non-humanoid characters...it was because of the sheer work that would be required in animating a non-humanoid race. Why spend the time rigging a non-humanoid form when you can easily make a humanoid form for another race and rig it the same way you have every other? In combination, they would have had to make the armor unique to the Nerubian, they would have had to make new animations for every physical ability, etc.
They didn't choose a non-humanoid race because they knew they could pump out another humanoid, which would be easy for them to design and work with. THIS is why we don't see playable non-humanoid races...not because it can't be done, and sure as hell not because people don't want them. Every MMORPG I have followed, people have asked for non-humanoid races...and everyone knows why they aren't likely to see them.
Anyway:
1: Crafting/Enchanting/Alchemy/Etc...
I am completely for making these various crafts more complicated, enjoyable, and immerse. I understand those who loathe mini-games, and I wouldn't want to see some cheesy mini-game incorporation either...but something that actually fits the system could be adored.
It's easier to come up with something for enchanting than it is anything else, but I'm sure that it could be done. It has to be done right, but the fear of failure shouldn't prevent such from being tried.
2: Customization
I'm one of those people who will spend an hour or more on customizing their character if the options permit it. While it's been said that these sliders aren't important in the grand scheme of things, I've often zoomed in on people within games so that I could see the minute differences in facial structure. Furthermore, this also helps flavor the world and keep you from feeling as though everyone around you is little more than a clone...be they playable or non-playable characters.
Personally, I would love to see them go much further with customization. The Elder Scrolls Online is rumored to have a character customization setup that rivals Skyrim in verity...and that's an excellent start. Lets, however, go further and add a ethnic background between each continent.
Now players choose a race, then choose their ethnicity which will then dictate which continent they start out on. Give them a full range of character customization options for EACH ethnic background and you'll get a rich world that feels real.
3: Transportation
I hate quick transportation systems. This fast travel instant teleportation is down loathsome but I fully understand how players would find themselves bored if they had to take public transportation that took forever without anything to do...so, make public transportation have potential events and things to actually do.
Imagine if you were taking a boat to another continent and this boat took 10-30 minutes to arrive. Typically, anyone would be bored if they had to sit on a boat and traverse the seas without anything to do. Well, perhaps you can be attacked by pirates, bloated sea zombies, a Leviathan. Maybe you have to occasionally DEFEND the ship by manning cannons and/or using your spells to ward off whatever is trying to sink you. If you fail...it won't be good.
In combination, perhaps this boat doubles as a casino where you can play games similar to blackjack or other odds and ends in order to try your luck at making a little extra coin.
The possibilities are endless.
Should fast travel be possible? Maybe...but it should be something that the Mage class can perform and make some coin off of. Infact, every class should have services they can render to make a little in game coinage from.
4: Housing
Another thing that people undervalue is the possibility of housing and the full spectrum to customization. Personally, I believe that this should be something on par to a lesser variant of the Sims. You can build your house using shells, decorate it with products that you can find in game, buy in game, and even the cash shop.
These houses should be independently cut off from the rest of the world, but places you can bring your friends into. It shouldn't stop there though, you should be able to start this process by choosing a type of landscape through a series of choices for your home...and depending upon what you choose, you'll have random events transpiring.
Perhaps you choose to build a small manor within an isolated forest amongst a mountainous valley...and occasionally, it seems that goblin hordes seethe from the caverns in an attempt to raid and pillage your house. You and your friends could be sitting around the chimney fire talking when all of a sudden...the entire house begins to rattle and goblins bust through the windows and cause chaos.
These small landscapes could have all sorts of little secrets and potential quests for players, and the friends they bring with them, to explore and find.
These are just a few ideas amongst many. These are all concepts that could be done, could be done well, could be downright awesome...but aren't done because developers aren't challenged by competition to do it.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
As a minor note i'd like to say i'm not a fan of platform jumping in an MMO. Lets keep that in its own genre.
I loved it in GW2,
I spent about an hour on a low end jumping puzzle when I first started up the game, and I found it a rather enthralling little side thing. So long as it's not implemented into the primary focus of the game, I enjoy little things like that.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
As a minor note i'd like to say i'm not a fan of platform jumping in an MMO. Lets keep that in its own genre.
I loved it in GW2,
I spent about an hour on a low end jumping puzzle when I first started up the game, and I found it a rather enthralling little side thing. So long as it's not implemented into the primary focus of the game, I enjoy little things like that.
I loved it in GW2 as well, that's the game that made me see its potential in an MMO. Different genres take elements from eachother all the time and oftentimes it enhances the gameplay, not ruin it. I asked for it because I see true potential for including it in parts of the game and not just as some obvious side attraction that has nothing to do with your quests and adventures.
1)Robust player housing; not just with many decoration options but interactable too!
2)Robust character customization(not just looks but also different races altogether, don't want to just be human/humanoid). And ingame alerations like haircuts to change the style/color, workouts or binge-eating to change your body type etc. This also should definitely include armor/weapons customization; I want to be able to color my armor (at a cost of resources/money of course), put designs into it etc. There should be a limit to this so that armor/weapons are still distinguishable but I want to at least be able to put little custom tweaks to them. Also don't limit the armor and weapons designs to one art style; some people like large pauldrons and flashy stuff ala WoW and some like more realistic armor ala Elder Scrolls or EQ. The game should include a full array of artstyles in each of the armor tiers. Why should there be only one best armor/weapon in each tier? I say have a variety of equal strength items with varying designs and let people choose what they like. Horizontal progression games like max-level GW2 is like that but vertical progression mmo's could do it too.
3)Whatever races/classes DO exist need to be fully fleshed out. Playing as each individual race should feel different than the others (their experience and how they interact with the game and how the game world interacts with them should be different). Classes should also be the same way. I'd rather have less classes with more playstyle options available to them and each class interact with the world very differently then have a bunch of classes that adventure in exactly the same way. Why does a mage have to kill the same number of wolves as the warrior to get stronger? Why would a thief/assassin go around helping villagers to progress? Classes should be doing activities that are suited to their profession to get stronger/ more skillful. Not all of them doing the same things all of the time. That's not unique, creative or immersive.
4)Crafting should be both meaningful and skillbased. Make crafting items involve minigames that improve the quality of items created based on the quality of materials AND the minigame skill level from the player; only the most devoted, experienced and concentrated players can craft the best possible items. *Edit: Please read the comments in the following pages that I've been making to elaborate on this part, "minigames" may not be the best choice of word for what I envision.
5)Aside from gathering/crafting, include other activities with non-combat related progression and find ways to reward players for their progression other than simply increasing the strength of their character. Things like mount breeding, monster battles, strategy minigames, farming, fishing minigames, tracking/hunting minigames, debates/politics/lore-history minigames.
6)Include quality of life hassles in the game both to enhance a sense of realism and to reward players that engage in non-combat activities. I.e. having to eat food occasionally to reward farmers, gatherers or cooks. Having to feed, tame and/or bond with your pets if you're a hunter type. Have to buy or craft ammo if you're a gun user. Have to brew or buy poisons if you're a rogue type etc. (I know WoW used to have many of these hassles in classic WoW and honestly I miss them. Sure it doesn't appeal to the casual crowd but it definitely appeals to players that want an immersive MMO experience; these are supposed to be virtual WORLDS. Not just virtual run from area to area killing stuff and gathering stuff for quests).
7)Not such streamlined questing; areas of all levels should include very dangerous locations/monsters. Sure there should be some kind of visual/audio/ or lore-reinforced queues that ventures to these locales may be insane. But players shouldn't just be able to mindlessly run around in a zone and expect everything to be within their level range. I want to think twice about exploring caves or dark woods or troll camps or spiders nests etc etc.
8)As an addendum to not such streamlined questing: get rid of questgiver markers. Sure let the game have a clean quest interface but it shouldn't be so straightforward as to who you should be talking to and who you shouldn't; games like the Elder Scrolls series show that there are much cleverer ways of letting people know that an NPC has a task they want you to undertake.
9)Enough with the teleports and fast travel; I love for my MMO's to have options to decrease travel times like transportation hubs (ferries, zeppelins, caravans, trains, trams w/e), mounts, some limited teleportation (either stationary or player created but at a large cost), heck even flying mounts (though there should be some kind of upkeep associated with having that level of convenience) but I HATE everyone just being able to teleport willy-nilly all over the world ala GW2. You don't have to go all lazy like that to make travel more convenient. If the world is properly designed and transportation options are properly allocated you don't have to resign to some lazy teleport system and encourage people to never look twice at the same locales in your gameworld. Taking 30 minutes to get to a major city or dungeon? Unacceptable imo. Instant teleport all over the place? Also unacceptable imo. I want a happy medium; any important hub in the gameworld should take an average of 10 minutes of travel time to get to.
10)Encourage exploration and creative adventuring; I love jumping puzzles, hidden bits of lore etc. Hell why not even make creative use of the terrain beneficial in PVE/PVP? Why not make access to certain dungeons limited to people that can beat certain platforming challenges? Why not even make platforming and puzzles part of the dungeons themselves? Also what about underwater, high elevation or hot locale exploration? Not only should there BE things to explore in these places, but there should be inherent danger and preparation required in doing it; and I'm not talking just about including tough NPCs (though they can be there too). You should be able to easily drown, fall, burn or get lost etc. if you are not careful
11)Integrate MOBA-style mechanics into structured PVP: Everyone starts the same strength at the start of the match but can boost/alter their abilities, strengths and weaknesses as the match progresses based on their performance and also make it objective based. It can be done; just look at Smite to get an idea of how it could look in an MMO battleground. *Edit: Please read the comments I've made on this subject in the following pages to fully understand what I'm talking about.
12)Make the overall package more challenging. I agree that there should be activities for all skill levels in the game but 90% of it shouldn't be a faceroll grindfest. I want to be engaged and challenged by my game; not just in some arbitrary endgame "raid" but in also in adventures of varying types. And don't confuse challenging with dysfunctional; A good game should have a well laid out and functioning interface, controls and should not be bug-ridden. Any challenge should be by design and not as a by-product of shoddy code, pacing or dysfunctional design. Challenge should be about choices (in skills to use, positioning, items equipped, preparation, coordination, timing, understanding of the mechanics etc.) and not about having to struggle with crappy camera angles, overcoming bugs or complicated keybindings.
13)I don't want old content to be made obsolete by new content. This can be remedied by either having more horizontal progression or by making old content necessary to be completed in order to be strong enough to take part in new content. I have no problem with toning down the difficulty of old content to make it easier for less skilled players to complete it and progress, but I don't agree with making it obsolete altogether. These are adventures that EVERYONE should experience at some point; and as long as players keep playing and trying eventually they will experience it. I'm not a fan of having the entire community working on the same content at the same time; that just feels unrealistic and silly. Honestly that was the nail in the coffin for me back when I was playing WoW (and yes I played MMO's before WoW too, like EQ, EQ II, SWG and FFXI). Making content obsolete in old expansions was bad enough, but in Wrath of the Lich King when they not only made hardcore and normal mode raids and dungeons...but they ALSO released easy dungeons that gave comparable loot to the previous tier raids to get players up to speed for the newest raids, that was when I quit playing WoW forever (after beating HM Lich King of course ). Sure they probably did it to help people making alts as well but honestly I'd rather make every class available to 1 character (ala FFXIV) rather than embrace that garbage.
14)NOT FREE TO PLAY. Give people longer trials, make it buy to play, hell if the development scope is large enough then just make it free to download but subscription based and give players an option to earn gametime by playing (like EVE or Wildstar is planning on doing) but do NOT make it free to play/microtransaction. I want an immersive world and I want to know that I get access to all of it for a set price that I can find agreeable. Having to make decisions about what content, items etc. I want to buy rather than earn it all (or some of it) with my gameplay is just crap gameplay mechanics for me. It want to pay for the whole game and earn everything I have in-game myself, anything less is distracting and unimmersive for me.
15)And lastly extend the scope of social interaction too....like allow characters to get married, hug, kiss or hold hands (nothing too sexual but just enough to show affection).
In the end my major concern with MMO's is that they are so MASSIVE in size but not large enough in scope. I'd glad give up over half of that virtual real estate for a more interactive, engaging and varied experience. MMO's should take a lesson from games like GTA V. Though the setting and content for that game are not very wholesome, the principles of city design, world design and quest design are worthy to take note of. That game is not only large in size, it's very broad in scope too. A game that I'm paying a subscription for should be like that, not just giving me more gear or levels to grind out.
With all respect (yes I loved your post): I WOULD LIKE FOR A DEVELOPER TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS AND LEARN FROM IT.
That would be the first thing I would want for an mmorpg in development. But sadly, friend...the only people they will truly listen to are the ones that sign their paychecks.
With all respect (yes I loved your post): I WOULD LIKE FOR A DEVELOPER TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS AND LEARN FROM IT.
That would be the first thing I would want for an mmorpg in development. But sadly, friend...the only people they will truly listen to are the ones that sign their paychecks.
That is how a market works.
I doubt devs should read every random rant on the internet. If i were one, i won't.
With all respect (yes I loved your post): I WOULD LIKE FOR A DEVELOPER TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS AND LEARN FROM IT.
That would be the first thing I would want for an mmorpg in development. But sadly, friend...the only people they will truly listen to are the ones that sign their paychecks.
That is how a market works.
I doubt devs should read every random rant on the internet. If i were one, i won't.
I have a hard time believing you in particular wouldn't. You got pretty much 15000 posts about hunting down rants/complaints about games and trying to debunk them and say games are fine you like how they are etc etc. Such a habit would be hard to quit even if you were a dev.
With all respect (yes I loved your post): I WOULD LIKE FOR A DEVELOPER TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS AND LEARN FROM IT.
That would be the first thing I would want for an mmorpg in development. But sadly, friend...the only people they will truly listen to are the ones that sign their paychecks.
That is how a market works.
I doubt devs should read every random rant on the internet. If i were one, i won't.
I have a hard time believing you in particular wouldn't. You got pretty much 15000 posts about hunting down rants/complaints about games and trying to debunk them and say games are fine you like how they are etc etc. Such a habit would be hard to quit even if you were a dev.
Oh .. i participate to have fun.
What i mean is that i won't take any opinions of random dudes on the internet seriously if i am a dev.
With all respect (yes I loved your post): I WOULD LIKE FOR A DEVELOPER TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS AND LEARN FROM IT.
That would be the first thing I would want for an mmorpg in development. But sadly, friend...the only people they will truly listen to are the ones that sign their paychecks.
That is how a market works.
I doubt devs should read every random rant on the internet. If i were one, i won't.
I have a hard time believing you in particular wouldn't. You got pretty much 15000 posts about hunting down rants/complaints about games and trying to debunk them and say games are fine you like how they are etc etc. Such a habit would be hard to quit even if you were a dev.
Oh .. i participate to have fun.
What i mean is that i won't take any opinions of random dudes on the internet seriously if i am a dev.
I've read enough random opinions to know that most of them are nonsense. Nevertheless there are great opinions out there and imo a great dev would search for them amongst the pile of rubbish. Not all great ideas come from within one's head or from a board of directors or even from a dev team, the human experience is about taking the information the world gives you and putting your own spin on it. People that actually work in the industry can sometimes have their creativity bound by the fact that they know the constraints of the technology/project/company they are working on or for and don't dare to think outside of the box. I sure hope there are devs out there that look for the "good" ideas that some random people put out there, even if there is alot of crap to sort through.
With all respect (yes I loved your post): I WOULD LIKE FOR A DEVELOPER TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS AND LEARN FROM IT.
That would be the first thing I would want for an mmorpg in development. But sadly, friend...the only people they will truly listen to are the ones that sign their paychecks.
That is how a market works.
I doubt devs should read every random rant on the internet. If i were one, i won't.
I have a hard time believing you in particular wouldn't. You got pretty much 15000 posts about hunting down rants/complaints about games and trying to debunk them and say games are fine you like how they are etc etc. Such a habit would be hard to quit even if you were a dev.
Oh .. i participate to have fun.
What i mean is that i won't take any opinions of random dudes on the internet seriously if i am a dev.
I've read enough random opinions to know that most of them are nonsense. Nevertheless there are great opinions out there and imo a great dev would search for them amongst the pile of rubbish. Not all great ideas come from within one's head or from a board of directors or even from a dev team, the human experience is about taking the information the world gives you and putting your own spin on it. People that actually work in the industry can sometimes have their creativity bound by the fact that they know the constraints of the technology/project/company they are working on or for and don't dare to think outside of the box. I sure hope there are devs out there that look for the "good" ideas that some random people put out there, even if there is alot of crap to sort through.
Funniest thing about this thread. Is most of these ideas already exist in modern MMOs. Maybe not all of them in the same game, but these are all features that have been implemented across numerous MMOs. And yet people still ignore those games.
Originally posted by aesperus Funniest thing about this thread. Is most of these ideas already exist in modern MMOs. Maybe not all of them in the same game, but these are all features that have been implemented across numerous MMOs. And yet people still ignore those games.
MMORPG's by design are intended to be the one game you play to the exclusion of everything else. No one has enough time to play many MMORPG's at the same time. 1 or 2 good features in each one does not necessarily a good MMO make. And still, even if they do have 1 or 2 that doesn't mean the game has grand scope. They need a variety of things to be grand in scope. Now I'm not saying a game would have to release with all these things and more, but they should be thinking about the scope of their game and how they can expand it with patches, expansions etc. Not just think about adding more of the same things the game already has in it (though that is fine too but it shouldn't be the only focus of your development).
This may be different for different people but for me MMORPG's were about "choice" when I first started playing them. Simply put I could "do" and customize more things and experience a wider variety of things in a single MMORPG then any other genre available at the time. Well over the years other genres have caught up with (and in some cases even surpassed) MMO's in that regard and it makes MMORPG's seem alot less appealing (to me).
Something else I seen stated was that people don't like non-humanoid races and this too is a fabricated option based off absolutely nothing factual. Infact, when WoW was in development...people were BEGGING Blizzard to make the Naga or Nerubian a playable race. Blizzard considered, I believe, the Nerubian but ultimately decided upon the Forsaken.
The reason was NOT because people do not like non-humanoid characters...it was because of the sheer work that would be required in animating a non-humanoid race. Why spend the time rigging a non-humanoid form when you can easily make a humanoid form for another race and rig it the same way you have every other? In combination, they would have had to make the armor unique to the Nerubian, they would have had to make new animations for every physical ability, etc.
They didn't choose a non-humanoid race because they knew they could pump out another humanoid, which would be easy for them to design and work with. THIS is why we don't see playable non-humanoid races...not because it can't be done, and sure as hell not because people don't want them. Every MMORPG I have followed, people have asked for non-humanoid races...and everyone knows why they aren't likely to see them.
When I first started playing WoW one of my favorite things about the game was the druid class. In that class you actually spend most of the time "playing" as animals! That was very cool and original to me and convinced me that non-humanoid races could definitely be just as fun to play in MMO as humanoid ones.
Heck one of my favorite things about MOBA's is that they have many non-humanoid characters to choose from to play. Some of my favorites are Nyx Assassin, Wisp and Jakiro from DOTA 2 and Kog'maw, Anivia and Nidalee (her animal form) from LoL.
Comments
That is just bad logic. No one has to play MMORPGs if they are not fun. It is not like there aren't ten thousand others type of entertainment. And don't tell me you think players have to play MMORPGs or die.
They play them because they like them, and are having fun.
Every single game i play is fun. Why? Because if it is, i am out of there in 30 second.
And you simply has no evidence to back up "i really don't think there's not many players like me". It is an opinion based on nothing.
Your statements are just as equally opinion based. However I don't think opinions are based on "nothing", we obviously have different experiences. I wish you'd spend more time playing these games you enjoy so much instead of trolling us who are trying to get a game we like made.
100% agree
GTAV, a game with over the top needless violence, gangsters, drugs, money, strip clubs, fast cars, and guns. Sounds like a niche market doesn't it...yet it is so successful to the casual crowd AND the die hard rockstar/gta crowd.
I think a lot of people read this list and think to themselves, I don't want to do that, therefore this game is not for me, when in fact most of the things on the list are simply features and never the main content in the game. I think that is what makes GTA so good, the fact that you have options in how to play the game, it's not linear. Why should MMOs be any different? I find all the ideas on the list interesting because it is something different. All other game genres are evolving and progressing, why is it that the MMORPG has been stuck at the same place for 10 years?
Glad that you get it. Scope is good, scope is what allows a game to offer options that you may not care for while still offering lots of things that you do want. MMORPG's (at least subscription-based ones) have the ability to get you to play a single game to the exclusion of everything else, so why not offer greater scope?
Maybe this is all they got. This is the best they can do. It cost too much. It's too complex for mmorpg players.
Im sure their R&D departments (lol) are experimenting with new excuses as we speak.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
So you buy the next game.
Do initial sales bring in more than all other sales combined? If so, then why waste resources expanding a game, rather than making and selling a new game for initial sales.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
What I want in an mmo is firstly an economy which actually allows me to make real cash from things I craft or find in the game. Can you imagine this possibility, I think that any games maker who actually enables players to make real money from their game playing will make a game that permanently smashes all other mmos that exist.
Secondly I want to be able to craft things that I can use rather than worthless junk and I want items in the game, lots of hidden items in the most remote random locations. I want worth while treasure chests that can be found after killing a stack of mobs.
Well, you put enough efforts to make your plan prone to misinterpretations. You suggest improving things and give poor examples of ways of improvement or just don’t give examples at all. It’s either vague or bad, that’s not how you make ppl interested. Describe how exactly coal mining can be fun and still be a natural part of main game. You don’t know how to do that? Devs too, probably.
If crafting process has some gameplay, that’s fine, but it should not break immersion. I like to be engaged but I CAN’T be engaged in house building if it’s just replaced with some re-skinned Tetris minigame. Growing crop should not require great eye-hand reflexes, ppl don’t farm wheat for adrenalin rush. If you can’t suggest a way to make it engaging and sensible process, I prefer old “prepare-mats-meet-conditions-press-button” crafting in solid world over some minigames bundle. At least I’ll get fun from preparations, it’s better than nothing.
Platformer as entrance quest for dungeon is not immersive or engaging either.
As for kinds of PVP, you know, immersion-breakers work even if you personally avoid them. If you randomly put space ships in high-fantasy game, it will ruin atmosphere even for ppl who won’t get a ride. If a healer jumps in moba-styled arena and suddenly choose role of killer, it doesn’t fit, it’s not the same character which gamer developed. If I mastered fireball spell I should have it on all arenas, or it’s not my character. If a fragile fairy challenge our team for a duel where she’s gonna be bulky tank I either bail out or accept immersion-breaker. Lose-lose situation for me.
You said you want PVP with character you developed yourself, but since characters are stripped of all gear and levels, all your development won’t be seen. Basically, it will be only skin and name. Not you character but some clone. You want to play YOUR character and suggest to solve this issue by turning it into some blank ingot with name. How exactly this make sense?
Oh and zerging is fine if combat mechanics allows 20 skilled ppl to beat 200 unskilled ones.
Zerging is just a social way to prepare for a battle, instead of getting more training in fencing you get more cannon fodder.
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I don’t understand why ppl bother to come here and say “This idea is not practical devs won’t do this” It’s a dream game thread, if such game existed TS would play it and don’t write here.
[mod edit]
Just to quickly get this out of the way I don't see how platforming can't be immersive when it comes to MMORPG's. Think about any kind of fantasy story, movie, show etc. Oftentimes the terrain itself can present just as difficult a challenge as the enemies the characters end up fighting. Nor do I think it can't fit; Zelda games have been using platforming in dungeons and the gameworld to great effect for years and it's not unimmersive or unfun. Now i'm not saying MMORPG's should go so far as to use it as much as Zelda but it would be a nice change of pace to include little challenges like that in the main gameplay. GW2 had lots of brilliant and fun jumping puzzles that I very much enjoyed doing and wish they could've mixed some of that into the main game. Having to navigate and find ways to get past rough terrain isn't unimmersive; if done right it can even add immersion (and variety) to the game.
Now as for crafting.... Specific examples of what I have in mind... Well I read a very good post made by someone who obviously understands the potential crafting can have and made a detailed analysis of systems in already existing games (particularly EQII) and makes suggestions on how to make it better. You should give it a read:
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1213473
It's true that even EQII could do the crafting better and I have a few extra suggestions on my part:
-Make crafting interface/process look cooler. Even if something is engaging it you may not appreciate the activity if you can't look cool doing it. For example when blacksmithing make different levels of successful hammer strikes release bigger sparks from the metal as you strike it (kind of like the visual stimulation you get from hitting the right note perfectly on Guitar Hero). Presentation is important. When you open a big chest in Zelda it has a much more epic cutscene and music than when you open a small one, huge success on producing a high quality item should have equal level of presentation.
-To add depth to the system, make working with different materials have different properties and thus present different challenges that you need to overcome with your skills. Like say when working with a delicate type metal, you should aim for softer hammer strikes as opposed to working with harder strikes.
-Include "group crafting". I.e. working in groups to produce the very best top tier quality items which will require different players to be performing different functions at the same time as you and you will be able to correct eachother's mistake and/or screw eachother up if you don't have proper timing (bear in mind I'm not saying the timing should be super stringent but should feel close to or akin to the coordination it takes to run a dungeon). Why not? People work together in the real world on production of things and one of the main draws/challenges of combat in MMORPG is group content. Why not extend that to crafting? Sure it can be very frustrating to have to depend on others, especially when they suck but isn't raiding the same way? Now bear in mind this idea depend very heavily on what the rest of the game looks like,how the economy works etc because it could be very unfun/imbalanced if this kind of system is not implemented as part of a very well thought out and interconnected system. It definitely shouldn't be the only way to get ALL the best items (so people are forced to do it) but you should definitely make the rewards appealing enough that crafters will want to take part. Please take this last one especially with a grain of salt because I'm not a game designer but it's definitely a "new" and original idea of mine (never heard or seen of it before) and I see potential in it.
-Having to "specialize" within each profession by choosing to learn and upgrade certain "skills" that you use during the crafting process that confer certain bonuses/qualities to the finished product. This allows more interdependence, less potential for inflation and plays into the "group crafting" system".
*Edit: I don't agree with the other thread's point that higher level crafters should be able to produce low quality items easier and faster than low level crafters. Experience and familiarity with the system/crafting process and the materials involved should provide all the ease needed to reward the devoted crafters; you don't need to reward them even further and make crafting even more unapproachable to new crafters by giving high level crafters even more ways to flood the market.
*Edit: i just realized you asked me for a specific example of how to make mining interesting. Funny enough I actually think that's one of the easier systems explain. Well the success of making mining engaging is contingent on the gameworld itself. The real challenge/game element of mining ore is first of all FINDING IT. If it all spawns in the same places on a timer or you can often just randomly come across it without trying to then there's no "game" involved in mining. Miners should have skills that help them track and uncover locations to mine for ore (not some passive tracker that they can just leave on but a set of skills that they have to actively and mindfully be utilizing to find and uncover it). Then once they find the ore they can MAYBE get like a bonus amount of ore by executing a minigame properly (though I don't think that is entirely necessary because the act of finding the ore is engaging and fun all in of itself, especially if the gameworld that you're searching for it in is well designed).
Finally, about the instanced PVP/Esports thing. I think this just comes down to your own personal preferences in games. If I hated instanced PVP then I'd probably feel the same way you do, but I don't. I really see and enjoy the merits of both kinds of PVP. And it's not that crazy; games have been including instanced PVP in their games for a long time now and alot of people like it, but it can be done better. You say there's nothing unique about having your character go into a battleground as a blank slate as everyone else but that's simply not true. MOBA's have elements that let you evolve your character over the course of a match,that's much more engaging than going in with the best/worst stuff and facerolling/getting facerolled. People start on equal footing and through their skill get stronger than the others and win the game. The difference is that the character you're using is YOUR character, he looks how YOU want and has your unique character name. If you're a "battleground" star people will recognize you in the gameworld and you'll feel awesome for it. I like what MOBA's have done because they have developed a PVP system where players don't have to grind out gear in order to compete and where player skill truly shows. This is both fair and fun (assuming that matchmaking puts players of close to equal skill against eachother) and by including a potentially true e-sport worthy part of the game in your MMORPG you create potential for some of your "devoted" playerbase to make a living by playing your game (through streaming, coaching, commentating, winning tournaments etc). I see this as an evolution for instanced PVP, if you don't like organized instanced PVP that's fine I can understand that (it IS immersion breaking, especially if not placed in the game properly) but as for me I enjoy it and would like to see it evolve.
I do like the the idea of adding lore-inspired "sports" into the game as well and kind of alluded to that in #5 (like mount breeding and racing; i drew inspiration from FFVII's chocobo races on this) but the truth is that there's hardly anything as satisfying as bashing eachothers faces in so I still think instanced PVP should be included and improved over what's currently available (by adopting MOBA-style elements).
Words alone can not portray the disgust I hold towards the various comments expressing things along the lines of "developers not wanting to incorporate unnecessary depth" and "players no longer desiring such".
This is absolute bullshit, and while current game sales may lead you to believe otherwise, taking a look at the various community forums goes to show you that it's not a matter of lacking desire; it's a matter of lazy developers knowing that they can get away with releasing watered down games because people want to game. You don't have to compete when the other developers are doing the same, exact, thing...so why waste the resources when you know that another watered down product will sell amongst the ravenous gaming community?
The GW 2 Guru forums were filled with depth related concepts and ideas that obtained scores of positive feedback, right down to the trivial campfire. There were several conceptual ideas focused around this minute, and extremely trivial, concept ranging from a moral boost to purely role playing elements such as NPC-like chatter amongst the characters based upon your personal story.
People want depth, we just aren't getting it because they know that the majority are willing to try their luck at watered down variants, thus leaving the developers free to produce this deluded content due to a lack of other developers giving them anything to truly compete against. If you can make heaps of money by giving someone a mediocre product...why would you spend the money to give them a high quality product?
With that said, I might not agree with everything that the OP has presented...but I am one who has been ravenously craving a MMORPG with actual depth and an adult oriented storyline that wasn't watered down to cater to every age group due to fearful backlash of morally hypocritical parents and elderly folk trapped in the bible.
Something else I seen stated was that people don't like non-humanoid races and this too is a fabricated option based off absolutely nothing factual. Infact, when WoW was in development...people were BEGGING Blizzard to make the Naga or Nerubian a playable race. Blizzard considered, I believe, the Nerubian but ultimately decided upon the Forsaken.
The reason was NOT because people do not like non-humanoid characters...it was because of the sheer work that would be required in animating a non-humanoid race. Why spend the time rigging a non-humanoid form when you can easily make a humanoid form for another race and rig it the same way you have every other? In combination, they would have had to make the armor unique to the Nerubian, they would have had to make new animations for every physical ability, etc.
They didn't choose a non-humanoid race because they knew they could pump out another humanoid, which would be easy for them to design and work with. THIS is why we don't see playable non-humanoid races...not because it can't be done, and sure as hell not because people don't want them. Every MMORPG I have followed, people have asked for non-humanoid races...and everyone knows why they aren't likely to see them.
Anyway:
1: Crafting/Enchanting/Alchemy/Etc...
I am completely for making these various crafts more complicated, enjoyable, and immerse. I understand those who loathe mini-games, and I wouldn't want to see some cheesy mini-game incorporation either...but something that actually fits the system could be adored.
It's easier to come up with something for enchanting than it is anything else, but I'm sure that it could be done. It has to be done right, but the fear of failure shouldn't prevent such from being tried.
2: Customization
I'm one of those people who will spend an hour or more on customizing their character if the options permit it. While it's been said that these sliders aren't important in the grand scheme of things, I've often zoomed in on people within games so that I could see the minute differences in facial structure. Furthermore, this also helps flavor the world and keep you from feeling as though everyone around you is little more than a clone...be they playable or non-playable characters.
Personally, I would love to see them go much further with customization. The Elder Scrolls Online is rumored to have a character customization setup that rivals Skyrim in verity...and that's an excellent start. Lets, however, go further and add a ethnic background between each continent.
Now players choose a race, then choose their ethnicity which will then dictate which continent they start out on. Give them a full range of character customization options for EACH ethnic background and you'll get a rich world that feels real.
3: Transportation
I hate quick transportation systems. This fast travel instant teleportation is down loathsome but I fully understand how players would find themselves bored if they had to take public transportation that took forever without anything to do...so, make public transportation have potential events and things to actually do.
Imagine if you were taking a boat to another continent and this boat took 10-30 minutes to arrive. Typically, anyone would be bored if they had to sit on a boat and traverse the seas without anything to do. Well, perhaps you can be attacked by pirates, bloated sea zombies, a Leviathan. Maybe you have to occasionally DEFEND the ship by manning cannons and/or using your spells to ward off whatever is trying to sink you. If you fail...it won't be good.
In combination, perhaps this boat doubles as a casino where you can play games similar to blackjack or other odds and ends in order to try your luck at making a little extra coin.
The possibilities are endless.
Should fast travel be possible? Maybe...but it should be something that the Mage class can perform and make some coin off of. Infact, every class should have services they can render to make a little in game coinage from.
4: Housing
Another thing that people undervalue is the possibility of housing and the full spectrum to customization. Personally, I believe that this should be something on par to a lesser variant of the Sims. You can build your house using shells, decorate it with products that you can find in game, buy in game, and even the cash shop.
These houses should be independently cut off from the rest of the world, but places you can bring your friends into. It shouldn't stop there though, you should be able to start this process by choosing a type of landscape through a series of choices for your home...and depending upon what you choose, you'll have random events transpiring.
Perhaps you choose to build a small manor within an isolated forest amongst a mountainous valley...and occasionally, it seems that goblin hordes seethe from the caverns in an attempt to raid and pillage your house. You and your friends could be sitting around the chimney fire talking when all of a sudden...the entire house begins to rattle and goblins bust through the windows and cause chaos.
These small landscapes could have all sorts of little secrets and potential quests for players, and the friends they bring with them, to explore and find.
These are just a few ideas amongst many. These are all concepts that could be done, could be done well, could be downright awesome...but aren't done because developers aren't challenged by competition to do it.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
Agreed 15/15.
As a minor note i'd like to say i'm not a fan of platform jumping in an MMO. Lets keep that in its own genre.
I loved it in GW2,
I spent about an hour on a low end jumping puzzle when I first started up the game, and I found it a rather enthralling little side thing. So long as it's not implemented into the primary focus of the game, I enjoy little things like that.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
I loved it in GW2 as well, that's the game that made me see its potential in an MMO. Different genres take elements from eachother all the time and oftentimes it enhances the gameplay, not ruin it. I asked for it because I see true potential for including it in parts of the game and not just as some obvious side attraction that has nothing to do with your quests and adventures.
With all respect (yes I loved your post): I WOULD LIKE FOR A DEVELOPER TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS AND LEARN FROM IT.
That would be the first thing I would want for an mmorpg in development. But sadly, friend...the only people they will truly listen to are the ones that sign their paychecks.
That is how a market works.
I doubt devs should read every random rant on the internet. If i were one, i won't.
I have a hard time believing you in particular wouldn't. You got pretty much 15000 posts about hunting down rants/complaints about games and trying to debunk them and say games are fine you like how they are etc etc. Such a habit would be hard to quit even if you were a dev.
Oh .. i participate to have fun.
What i mean is that i won't take any opinions of random dudes on the internet seriously if i am a dev.
I've read enough random opinions to know that most of them are nonsense. Nevertheless there are great opinions out there and imo a great dev would search for them amongst the pile of rubbish. Not all great ideas come from within one's head or from a board of directors or even from a dev team, the human experience is about taking the information the world gives you and putting your own spin on it. People that actually work in the industry can sometimes have their creativity bound by the fact that they know the constraints of the technology/project/company they are working on or for and don't dare to think outside of the box. I sure hope there are devs out there that look for the "good" ideas that some random people put out there, even if there is alot of crap to sort through.
MMORPG's by design are intended to be the one game you play to the exclusion of everything else. No one has enough time to play many MMORPG's at the same time. 1 or 2 good features in each one does not necessarily a good MMO make. And still, even if they do have 1 or 2 that doesn't mean the game has grand scope. They need a variety of things to be grand in scope. Now I'm not saying a game would have to release with all these things and more, but they should be thinking about the scope of their game and how they can expand it with patches, expansions etc. Not just think about adding more of the same things the game already has in it (though that is fine too but it shouldn't be the only focus of your development).
This may be different for different people but for me MMORPG's were about "choice" when I first started playing them. Simply put I could "do" and customize more things and experience a wider variety of things in a single MMORPG then any other genre available at the time. Well over the years other genres have caught up with (and in some cases even surpassed) MMO's in that regard and it makes MMORPG's seem alot less appealing (to me).
When I first started playing WoW one of my favorite things about the game was the druid class. In that class you actually spend most of the time "playing" as animals! That was very cool and original to me and convinced me that non-humanoid races could definitely be just as fun to play in MMO as humanoid ones.
Heck one of my favorite things about MOBA's is that they have many non-humanoid characters to choose from to play. Some of my favorites are Nyx Assassin, Wisp and Jakiro from DOTA 2 and Kog'maw, Anivia and Nidalee (her animal form) from LoL.
MMhmmm we know what you like