This website is "mmorpg.com". The audience shouldn't be a big surprise...
We've all come to an agreement on what MMOs truly are? I must have missed the memo.
Well, one thing is sure, neither "Island Life" nor "My Wineyard" are MMORPGs.
Looks more like an ex-MMO star who had to fall back doing facebook games to survive.
At least Starr Long joined Garriott on his new project. But Raph is taking shots at a genre he's not even part of anymore. Sorry, but I have some problems with people peeing in the bowl which was previously allowing them to earn a living.
MMORPG's were better when developers created from the heart instead of for the customer.
Personally I wouldn't ignore criticisms or let them control me. At least you know when someone has something positive to say about your work it usually comes from one place, but when someone has something negative to say about your work it could come from many places.
For example I knew someone once who thought they were so smart that when someone recommended a game to them that they didn't hear about first or recommended themselves they couldn't play it because their ego wouldn't let them, and eventually turned that poor soul into a hater of that game. They could only relate to negative feedback about the game and in turn never gave it a chance. This is just one example and that person still hasn't played Skyrim as far as I know, lol. Hate works in funny ways, but love is usually sincere.
This website is "mmorpg.com". The audience shouldn't be a big surprise...
We've all come to an agreement on what MMOs truly are? I must have missed the memo.
Well, one thing is sure, neither "Island Life" nor "My Wineyard" are MMORPGs.
Looks more like an ex-MMO star who had to fall back doing facebook games to survive.
At least Starr Long joined Garriott on his new project. But Raph is taking shots at a genre he's not even part of anymore. Sorry, but I have some problems with people peeing in the bowl which was previously allowing them to earn a living.
The worst part of fanboism is the closed/early beta phase.
Content/classes/ect that are stupid and/or broken get pointed out by apparent haters, the fanboi brigade comes in and defends, then developers do nothing, then the fanboi quits after the free month because of the exact same issue.
It happens over and over and over. Its usually the same people too.
This seems especially true in the age of b2p beta's.
This website is "mmorpg.com". The audience shouldn't be a big surprise...
We've all come to an agreement on what MMOs truly are? I must have missed the memo.
Well, one thing is sure, neither "Island Life" nor "My Wineyard" are MMORPGs.
Looks more like an ex-MMO star who had to fall back doing facebook games to survive.
At least Starr Long joined Garriott on his new project. But Raph is taking shots at a genre he's not even part of anymore.
He never said they were mmos. Someone claimed his perspective is irrelevant because he's not done something successful for several years. He was just pointing out that he has had some successful titles just not mmos.
I've had many successful "titles" over my last years of software engineer for real time video/movie graphics, yet I wouldn't apply those successes to a genre they are totally unrelated to.
One cook may be a god when it comes to making sushi, that doesn't mean he knows how to make a good steak.
I've a lot of respect for Raph for what he did in the past, but I think he lost touch with the actual MMO industry and still lives 10 years ago when it comes to those game's design.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by FoomerangSo be constructive and I would be happy to engage you in a healthy debate
You are already engaged constructive or not.
Otherwise, why the long post?
I'm sorry. I think there must be some sort of language barrier and things are getting lost in the translation. I'm not sure we are understanding each other. Maybe I'm just not understanding you and that's the problem. Anyway, the act of simply engaging in a back and forth conversation for the sake of argument is not satisfying to me. I like to go a little deeper than that.
Again, I'm not saying you don't. Just saying maybe we are not writing or reading each other's word in the correct context.
This website is "mmorpg.com". The audience shouldn't be a big surprise...
We've all come to an agreement on what MMOs truly are? I must have missed the memo.
Well, one thing is sure, neither "Island Life" nor "My Wineyard" are MMORPGs.
Looks more like an ex-MMO star who had to fall back doing facebook games to survive.
At least Starr Long joined Garriott on his new project. But Raph is taking shots at a genre he's not even part of anymore. Sorry, but I have some problems with people peeing in the bowl which was previously allowing them to earn a living.
Looking at it from a different light, modern MMORPGs are a branch of the genre that stagnated and didn't evolve. IMO, based on the evolution of the genre and Raph's recent works, I'd say he's far more in tune with where the genre is now and where it will be heading than most of us are.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually, the last several games I did out of my studio (Island Life, My Vineyard) got over a million players. They just weren't MMOs. I realize that means you likely don't care about them, but they made a lot of folks happy... I still get fan mail about them too. Not all games are for this audience.
Then maybe you were just not made to create MMOs... but just other kind of games. And I know you since UO beta. I'm still not surprised. Richard was the visionary, not you.
This website is "mmorpg.com". The audience shouldn't be a big surprise...
Obviously, I have designed MMOs. They were fairly important MMOs, and a lot of people liked them. Richard is on record as to how much involvement he had with UO. You can ask him. Or you could watch the video from when UO was put into the Hall of Fame at GDCOnline, he says it there.
You haven't actually stated what I did that was so awful. I offered a theory on what it was... didn't get an answer that I saw. I can't respond to it unless you tell me.
I am a game designer, of course I make more kinds of games than just MMOs. I made games before MMOs, for that matter.
Lastly, this article wasn't about MMOs. Further, I wasn't the one who posted it here. I saw a discussion in progress, and joined in.
This website is "mmorpg.com". The audience shouldn't be a big surprise...
We've all come to an agreement on what MMOs truly are? I must have missed the memo.
Well, one thing is sure, neither "Island Life" nor "My Wineyard" are MMORPGs.
Looks more like an ex-MMO star who had to fall back doing facebook games to survive.
At least Starr Long joined Garriott on his new project. But Raph is taking shots at a genre he's not even part of anymore. Sorry, but I have some problems with people peeing in the bowl which was previously allowing them to earn a living.
Island Life and My Vineyard actually WERE virtual worlds. They definitely weren't traditional MMOs though, not by a long shot. And they were built using the Metaplace tech we made for Metaplace.com, which definitely was a virtual world.
FWIW, I think I'll ALWAYS be a part of the MMO genre.
"has the potential to create great games" - i don't play potential, I play games. Raph has not produced anything successful for a long long time.
Actually, the last several games I did out of my studio (Island Life, My Vineyard) got over a million players. They just weren't MMOs. I realize that means you likely don't care about them, but they made a lot of folks happy... I still get fan mail about them too. Not all games are for this audience.
You just proved my point. You created actual games, and not just potentials.
BTW, i do care. I don't only play MMORPGs. Why would i even restrict myself to one genre?
What is your website? may be i will be the million and first player.
Alas, when Metaplace was purchased by Playdom, Island Life was shut down, and My Vineyard went away about a year and a half ago. Games on Facebook do not usually have long lifespans.
That said, my website is raphkoster.com. Soon as there's something new, it'll be posted there
This is typical of Koster, when writing something where he has a great deal of time to word it, he will sound like a humble man that knows what he is talking about. Every other time however its the exact opposite. He takes credit for everything unless its bad and magically he had nothing to do with it even though he is running the show and thinks of his own work like a fanboy. He has been compared to Steve Jobs by his own former co-workers.
I havent seen anyone as arrogant or full of himself in the gaming industry, the closest is Don Mattrick.
Anyway, he hasn't been able to get a job or funding for his projects for 7 years for a reason.
And no, I will never forget being told during SWGs beta that the reason we cant be given more than 1 character slot is due to the amount of polygons each character has which takes up on massive space on the server...the man has no respect for players intellect.
This is typical of Koster, when writing something where he has a great deal of time to word it, he will sound like a humble man that knows what he is talking about. Every other time however its the exact opposite. He takes credit for everything unless its bad and magically he had nothing to do with it even though he is running the show and thinks of his own work like a fanboy. He has been compared to Steve Jobs by his own former co-workers.
I havent seen anyone as arrogant or full of himself in the gaming industry, the closest is Don Mattrick.
Anyway, he hasn't been able to get a job or funding for his projects for 7 years for a reason.
And no, I will never forget being told during SWGs beta that the reason we cant be given more than 1 character slot is due to the amount of polygons each character has which takes up on massive space on the server...the man has no respect for players intellect.
Even if utterly harsh (too harsh to me), this holds quite a good amount of truth, sadly. The whole recent Koster informations sound pretty much like "spitting in the soup that made you" to me.
Alas, when Metaplace was purchased by Playdom, Island Life was shut down, and My Vineyard went away about a year and a half ago. Games on Facebook do not usually have long lifespans.
That said, my website is raphkoster.com. Soon as there's something new, it'll be posted there
I do want to congratulate you for being civil and give out real information, even in light of very unflattering (from me, no less) commentary on your lack of recent success.
Tell me this ... given that you obviously have a following (though i am not one of them), are you planning on getting back to making games? And what kind of games are you planning to make?
This is typical of Koster, when writing something where he has a great deal of time to word it, he will sound like a humble man that knows what he is talking about. Every other time however its the exact opposite. He takes credit for everything unless its bad and magically he had nothing to do with it even though he is running the show and thinks of his own work like a fanboy. He has been compared to Steve Jobs by his own former co-workers.
I havent seen anyone as arrogant or full of himself in the gaming industry, the closest is Don Mattrick.
Anyway, he hasn't been able to get a job or funding for his projects for 7 years for a reason.
And no, I will never forget being told during SWGs beta that the reason we cant be given more than 1 character slot is due to the amount of polygons each character has which takes up on massive space on the server...the man has no respect for players intellect.
Sigh, whatever.
If you want to hear about what i did wrong, why not join the Q&A thread and ask me what my biggest mistakes were? I have to go over to that thread rather than answering here.
Oh, and until 6 months ago I was a VP at Disney. :P
I do want to congratulate you for being civil and give out real information, even in light of very unflattering (from me, no less) commentary on your lack of recent success.
Tell me this ... given that you obviously have a following (though i am not one of them), are you planning on getting back to making games? And what kind of games are you planning to make?
That also sounds like a great question for the Q&A thread, if you don't mind.
This is typical of Koster, when writing something where he has a great deal of time to word it, he will sound like a humble man that knows what he is talking about. Every other time however its the exact opposite. He takes credit for everything unless its bad and magically he had nothing to do with it even though he is running the show and thinks of his own work like a fanboy. He has been compared to Steve Jobs by his own former co-workers.
I havent seen anyone as arrogant or full of himself in the gaming industry, the closest is Don Mattrick.
Anyway, he hasn't been able to get a job or funding for his projects for 7 years for a reason.
And no, I will never forget being told during SWGs beta that the reason we cant be given more than 1 character slot is due to the amount of polygons each character has which takes up on massive space on the server...the man has no respect for players intellect.
Even if utterly harsh (too harsh to me), this holds quite a good amount of truth, sadly. The whole recent Koster informations sound pretty much like "spitting in the soup that made you" to me.
I know it was harsh, but sadly to me personally...anyone that disrespects gamers deserves no quarter. I hold the same view towards the makers of DaoC who have stated over and over that players are too stupid to be able to form any connection without developers creating it,or have any sense of pride on their own unless its created for them...then there is the comments about how were are all too dumb to be able to tell who an enemy is unless they look different from us. You can still hear it in some of the TESO interviews as they have a smug smirk on their faces as they explain why a game must have racial/faction splits for the poor little gamers minds to wrap around fighting each other.
I do want to congratulate you for being civil and give out real information, even in light of very unflattering (from me, no less) commentary on your lack of recent success.
Tell me this ... given that you obviously have a following (though i am not one of them), are you planning on getting back to making games? And what kind of games are you planning to make?
That also sounds like a great question for the Q&A thread, if you don't mind.
Not at all. In fact, i have added a similar question in that Q&A thread already before i asked you here.
Forgive me that i am not a fan of yours .. but i think it would be interesting to hear from you.
If you want to hear about what i did wrong, why not join the Q&A thread and ask me what my biggest mistakes were? I have to go over to that thread rather than answering here.
Oh, and until 6 months ago I was a VP at Disney. :P
I hope you are not emotionally affected by just some random comments on the internet.
I made some unflattering comments to you too (and i think i called you a "has been"). However, i am just a random guy on the internet. People who are anonymous on the internet can afford to be mean, and often do not need to be mindful of their words. I have been called worse on this forum too.
I am sure you already know this. But there is no reason to get emotional over opinions of random people on the internet. I would much rather enjoy the verbal pvp, than trying to make people like me.
If you want to hear about what i did wrong, why not join the Q&A thread and ask me what my biggest mistakes were? I have to go over to that thread rather than answering here.
Oh, and until 6 months ago I was a VP at Disney. :P
Not that I believe you are "Raph", but what does working at Disney have to do with you not being able to get work in the MMO field or getting funded for your MMO ideas...oh wait, nothing!
BTW, no need to join the Q&A about "fails"...it wont take away the things you took credit for, which you did not do, nor the things you passed off onto others in order to protect your false sense of being a great designer. Sure wont take away from the things said to gamers...you disrespected just enough of your NON-Fanboy players for it to follow you around forever, we will keep reminding the gaming world of it.
Hopefully enough to keep you out of designing anything big again, though im sure the companies capable of funding one already know enough about your record to keep that from happening anyway.
If you want to hear about what i did wrong, why not join the Q&A thread and ask me what my biggest mistakes were? I have to go over to that thread rather than answering here.
Oh, and until 6 months ago I was a VP at Disney. :P
Not that I believe you are "Raph", but what does working at Disney have to do with you not being able to get work in the MMO field or getting funded for your MMO ideas...oh wait, nothing!
BTW, no need to join the Q&A about "fails"...it wont take away the things you took credit for, which you did not do, nor the things you passed off onto others in order to protect your false sense of being a great designer. Sure wont take away from the things said to gamers...you disrespected just enough of your NON-Fanboy players for it to follow you around forever, we will keep reminding the gaming world of it.
Hopefully enough to keep you out of designing anything big again, though im sure the companies capable of funding one already know enough about your record to keep that from happening anyway.
You know you haven't actually shown that he was responsible for the nge and trammel right?
If you have some evidence, link, statement... anything showing that he was in charge at the time those were put in place, show it.
And before you get guts in a konw - no I'm not a fanboy, his 2 main claims to fame UO I never played, and SWG I thought it was the most boring, bug ridden peice of junk game ever (sorry Raph, just wasn't for me). I just think it's incredible rude and to spew all this hate over someone who has allready stated they weren't even there for that. So if you think he is lying, show us the evidence.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
And no, I will never forget being told during SWGs beta that the reason we cant be given more than 1 character slot is due to the amount of polygons each character has which takes up on massive space on the server...the man has no respect for players intellect.
I REMEBER THAT!
I am totally not a fan of Koster either but more for his laziness. SWG could have been the greatest game ever but turned out only to be good due to the PLAYERS. The random generated worlds were god awful, lack of X/Y 3D axis, the database was such a royal mess that it required restarts every single day.
The game was like a Filet Mignon floating in Gazpacho Soup...like wtf?!? greatness wrapped in blah.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Comments
Well, one thing is sure, neither "Island Life" nor "My Wineyard" are MMORPGs.
Looks more like an ex-MMO star who had to fall back doing facebook games to survive.
At least Starr Long joined Garriott on his new project. But Raph is taking shots at a genre he's not even part of anymore. Sorry, but I have some problems with people peeing in the bowl which was previously allowing them to earn a living.
My computer is better than yours.
You are already engaged constructive or not.
Otherwise, why the long post?
MMORPG's were better when developers created from the heart instead of for the customer.
Personally I wouldn't ignore criticisms or let them control me. At least you know when someone has something positive to say about your work it usually comes from one place, but when someone has something negative to say about your work it could come from many places.
For example I knew someone once who thought they were so smart that when someone recommended a game to them that they didn't hear about first or recommended themselves they couldn't play it because their ego wouldn't let them, and eventually turned that poor soul into a hater of that game. They could only relate to negative feedback about the game and in turn never gave it a chance. This is just one example and that person still hasn't played Skyrim as far as I know, lol. Hate works in funny ways, but love is usually sincere.
Fair enough. Thank you.
This seems especially true in the age of b2p beta's.
I've had many successful "titles" over my last years of software engineer for real time video/movie graphics, yet I wouldn't apply those successes to a genre they are totally unrelated to.
One cook may be a god when it comes to making sushi, that doesn't mean he knows how to make a good steak.
I've a lot of respect for Raph for what he did in the past, but I think he lost touch with the actual MMO industry and still lives 10 years ago when it comes to those game's design.
My computer is better than yours.
Otherwise, why the long post?
I'm sorry. I think there must be some sort of language barrier and things are getting lost in the translation. I'm not sure we are understanding each other. Maybe I'm just not understanding you and that's the problem. Anyway, the act of simply engaging in a back and forth conversation for the sake of argument is not satisfying to me. I like to go a little deeper than that.
Again, I'm not saying you don't. Just saying maybe we are not writing or reading each other's word in the correct context.
Looking at it from a different light, modern MMORPGs are a branch of the genre that stagnated and didn't evolve. IMO, based on the evolution of the genre and Raph's recent works, I'd say he's far more in tune with where the genre is now and where it will be heading than most of us are.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How can fanboyism be bad for the industry when Developers don't listen to anyone in the first place.
The better thing to say is bad developers are bad for the industry.
Obviously, I have designed MMOs. They were fairly important MMOs, and a lot of people liked them. Richard is on record as to how much involvement he had with UO. You can ask him. Or you could watch the video from when UO was put into the Hall of Fame at GDCOnline, he says it there.
You haven't actually stated what I did that was so awful. I offered a theory on what it was... didn't get an answer that I saw. I can't respond to it unless you tell me.
I am a game designer, of course I make more kinds of games than just MMOs. I made games before MMOs, for that matter.
Lastly, this article wasn't about MMOs. Further, I wasn't the one who posted it here. I saw a discussion in progress, and joined in.
Island Life and My Vineyard actually WERE virtual worlds. They definitely weren't traditional MMOs though, not by a long shot. And they were built using the Metaplace tech we made for Metaplace.com, which definitely was a virtual world.
FWIW, I think I'll ALWAYS be a part of the MMO genre.
You just proved my point. You created actual games, and not just potentials.
BTW, i do care. I don't only play MMORPGs. Why would i even restrict myself to one genre?
What is your website? may be i will be the million and first player.
Alas, when Metaplace was purchased by Playdom, Island Life was shut down, and My Vineyard went away about a year and a half ago. Games on Facebook do not usually have long lifespans.
That said, my website is raphkoster.com. Soon as there's something new, it'll be posted there
This is typical of Koster, when writing something where he has a great deal of time to word it, he will sound like a humble man that knows what he is talking about. Every other time however its the exact opposite. He takes credit for everything unless its bad and magically he had nothing to do with it even though he is running the show and thinks of his own work like a fanboy. He has been compared to Steve Jobs by his own former co-workers.
I havent seen anyone as arrogant or full of himself in the gaming industry, the closest is Don Mattrick.
Anyway, he hasn't been able to get a job or funding for his projects for 7 years for a reason.
And no, I will never forget being told during SWGs beta that the reason we cant be given more than 1 character slot is due to the amount of polygons each character has which takes up on massive space on the server...the man has no respect for players intellect.
Even if utterly harsh (too harsh to me), this holds quite a good amount of truth, sadly. The whole recent Koster informations sound pretty much like "spitting in the soup that made you" to me.
My computer is better than yours.
It's pretty easy to check and see if someone was running the operation when said decisions came down.
If he wasn't there for those changes, don't blame him for it.
I do want to congratulate you for being civil and give out real information, even in light of very unflattering (from me, no less) commentary on your lack of recent success.
Tell me this ... given that you obviously have a following (though i am not one of them), are you planning on getting back to making games? And what kind of games are you planning to make?
Sigh, whatever.
If you want to hear about what i did wrong, why not join the Q&A thread and ask me what my biggest mistakes were? I have to go over to that thread rather than answering here.
Oh, and until 6 months ago I was a VP at Disney. :P
That also sounds like a great question for the Q&A thread, if you don't mind.
I know it was harsh, but sadly to me personally...anyone that disrespects gamers deserves no quarter. I hold the same view towards the makers of DaoC who have stated over and over that players are too stupid to be able to form any connection without developers creating it,or have any sense of pride on their own unless its created for them...then there is the comments about how were are all too dumb to be able to tell who an enemy is unless they look different from us. You can still hear it in some of the TESO interviews as they have a smug smirk on their faces as they explain why a game must have racial/faction splits for the poor little gamers minds to wrap around fighting each other.
Not at all. In fact, i have added a similar question in that Q&A thread already before i asked you here.
Forgive me that i am not a fan of yours .. but i think it would be interesting to hear from you.
I hope you are not emotionally affected by just some random comments on the internet.
I made some unflattering comments to you too (and i think i called you a "has been"). However, i am just a random guy on the internet. People who are anonymous on the internet can afford to be mean, and often do not need to be mindful of their words. I have been called worse on this forum too.
I am sure you already know this. But there is no reason to get emotional over opinions of random people on the internet. I would much rather enjoy the verbal pvp, than trying to make people like me.
Not that I believe you are "Raph", but what does working at Disney have to do with you not being able to get work in the MMO field or getting funded for your MMO ideas...oh wait, nothing!
BTW, no need to join the Q&A about "fails"...it wont take away the things you took credit for, which you did not do, nor the things you passed off onto others in order to protect your false sense of being a great designer. Sure wont take away from the things said to gamers...you disrespected just enough of your NON-Fanboy players for it to follow you around forever, we will keep reminding the gaming world of it.
Hopefully enough to keep you out of designing anything big again, though im sure the companies capable of funding one already know enough about your record to keep that from happening anyway.
You know you haven't actually shown that he was responsible for the nge and trammel right?
If you have some evidence, link, statement... anything showing that he was in charge at the time those were put in place, show it.
And before you get guts in a konw - no I'm not a fanboy, his 2 main claims to fame UO I never played, and SWG I thought it was the most boring, bug ridden peice of junk game ever (sorry Raph, just wasn't for me). I just think it's incredible rude and to spew all this hate over someone who has allready stated they weren't even there for that. So if you think he is lying, show us the evidence.
I REMEBER THAT!
I am totally not a fan of Koster either but more for his laziness. SWG could have been the greatest game ever but turned out only to be good due to the PLAYERS. The random generated worlds were god awful, lack of X/Y 3D axis, the database was such a royal mess that it required restarts every single day.
The game was like a Filet Mignon floating in Gazpacho Soup...like wtf?!? greatness wrapped in blah.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson