I think it makes perfect sense to look at changing things.
you're trying to make except change is good. Sometimes change can be, and sometimes it's not. We'll have to see about this one when we get more details.
if the change is optional
- i don't see how it can be anything but positive because it's another option for gameplay
Originally posted by Amjoco I like the idea! It worked for me in GW2 so why not here! Will they do scaling through the entire world someday? It would make the game better imho.
I will give the opposite opinion. I think this is one of the biggest failures in GW2. Your character never ever seems to be progressing in that game because all the content under you remains the same. I'm ok with voluntary mentoring lowering your level but making it mandatory just kills any sense of accomplishment that comes with leveling.
When GW2's release was looming on the horizon, the case I always made for scaling in the dungeons of Tyria was to ponder how freaking amazing WoW would be today if every dungeon and raid didn't instantly become obsolete as soon as the next expansion or, in some cases, the next tier of content was released. Imagine if BRD, UBRS, LBRS, Strat, Scholo, Dire Maul, MC, BWL, ZG, AQ, Kara, Mag, Gruel, SSC, TK, Hyjal, BT, Sunwell, Naxx, Malygos, Ulduar, ToC, IC plus every Cata and MoP raid and dungeon were still relevant and challenging. How ridiculous would that be? The game would be absolutely huge by now. Instead, it remains almost exactly the same size no matter how many expansions are added because 95% the content that came before becomes irrelevant and quickly neglected.
Overall, I just think the pros of such a scaling system simply vastly outweigh the cons. The only cons I can think of is the loss of speed running people through dungeons, or novelty solo attempts on old bosses. The pro is that you could potentially get 4 expansions worth of viable end game content back.
There are some obvious obstacles, however. "Funness" as a sole virtue of content is usually only enough to keep players engaged for a short while. They tend to require some other incentive. Throughout the history of end game raiding in WoW, that incentive has been twofold: prestige and character improvement. Prestige comes in many forms: jockeying for server first kills, gear, titles, achievements, mounts. Character improvement is solely the realm of gear, and sometimes reputation grinds. Additionally, games like GW2 make a nearly infinite hobby out of cosmetic advancement. I haven't played WoW since they added transmogrification, but I assume old raids and dungeons also presently and can continue to serve the function of cosmetic gear vendors.
For dowscaled retro-raiding to be a homerun in WoW, I think they need to start by opening them up along with a series of legacy achievements, and possibly some rewards to go with attaining those achievements. These achievements and their associated rewards will essentially be a gigantic bit of new raid progression for players to chase after. Guilds can post their progress. The works.
Second, they obviously need to make them challenging according to players' adjusted scale, or else none of this competitive drive for progress holds any water.
Lastly, there need to be long term rewards to keep players coming back for a while in the long run. In the future, a new raid tier is going to be released and will occupy everyone's time again. But once the excitement and progress wears off, there should be reason to continue to go back to all the old stuff once again.
I don't think it is cut and dry, and I also don't think we know enough about what they have planned.
Too much content is not always a good thing. LFR is a good example of this, when you have a limited number of people spread across a large range of content instead of focusing on the same content it can make it very hard to get groups together. There are ways to address this though. LFD does this by having a shared random queue. Catch up mechanisms in the case of LFR can help.
As long as it is optional and it has thought of and addressed the potential pitfalls, it shouldn't be disastrous.
However personally, I think instanced content takes people out of the world and we already have far too much of that. Instead I wish they would spend their time developing more scalable group content that happens out in the world, instead of the game world being little more than a lobby for small group content like any number of console games.
When it comes to fun, yes it is an MMORPG so there will be some repetition. The ability to hide that repetition so it doesn't feel repetitious is essential to fun. There are lots of ways different games handle that. Some use randomization like Wildstar appears to be doing with switching up how instances work every week, or like many diablo based games do with randomizing areas. Some provide visual variety to help hide repetition.
It's about time this feature is implemented. and after watching the video and listening to the author it seems like this feature will be implemented in LFG. direct entrance will still allow us to solo with higher level.
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- i don't see how it can be anything but positive because it's another option for gameplay
And opens up the possibility of an additional community building system--sidekicking/exemplaring.
Probably too late for WoW really, but the idea dates to (at least) '04.
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But yes, you can expect some (possibly massive) resistance from certain quarters along predictable lines.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Fendel84M Off topic but I would love to see dynamic events make their way into Azeroth. I think that kind of content would surely suck me back in. The world is still one of if not the most beautiful in an MMO. Give us stuff to do in it!!
That and make all classes available to one character, FFXIV style plus lower XP gain. That would allow me to spend more time on certain zones and dungeons.
The world is beautiful full of content but you overlevel it so damn fast.
Originally posted by Fendel84M Off topic but I would love to see dynamic events make their way into Azeroth. I think that kind of content would surely suck me back in. The world is still one of if not the most beautiful in an MMO. Give us stuff to do in it!!
That and make all classes available to one character, FFXIV style plus lower XP gain. That would allow me to spend more time on certain zones and dungeons.
The world is beautiful full of content but you overlevel it so damn fast.
Which is really a shame because it didn't use to the be that way. They want players focused on the latest content so they have sped everything up so fast that all lower level content has become essentially a meaningless blur.
The old world used to be a beautiful journey that was substantial and because it did take time instead of blazing through everything it felt like a huge accomplishment. No when you hit max level it is more like, ”oh, already, that was fast". I don't think dungeon scaling really solves that issue, it is still a race to max and a race to currency caps, it just means they can focus less on creating new content by giving everybody a bunch of scaling old content. If anything it keeps people in instances more than ever instead of out in the world.
It really is a shame though, because you would think all the old world content would be one of WoW's strengths, but it really isn't because you plow through it so fast, as far as a time sink goes it isn't that much. Other games provide nearly as much content when talking about relevant content and play time. If all that content had stayed at it's original speed, not only would the journey be far more interesting, but it would be hard for any competing games to provide nearly as much relevant content. But to address the problem of players not being able to play together they decided to make it a race to max instead of coming up with some form of rewarding mentor program, and thus due to that race lower level content quickly becomes largely irrelevant.
Originally posted by Amjoco I like the idea! It worked for me in GW2 so why not here! Will they do scaling through the entire world someday? It would make the game better imho.
I will give the opposite opinion. I think this is one of the biggest failures in GW2. Your character never ever seems to be progressing in that game because all the content under you remains the same. I'm ok with voluntary mentoring lowering your level but making it mandatory just kills any sense of accomplishment that comes with leveling.
The gear on your back, leveling, and achievements should be enough to show progression. I would rather not have to exclude entire areas because there is no challenge left to go back and do them. I guess everyone is ok with buying a game only to play up to the end and put it on the shelf.
My sense of accomplishment is the fun in playing the game with friends. This system allows me to invite new friends to GW2 and joining them without them losing xp due to my level. They win by gaining full xp and I win by gaining it too.
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MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.
Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?
Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)
I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea.
I don't like this at all. Scaling content in a gear-progression game? Not an awesome idea, partially removes the sense of progression. I've enjoyed my transmog runs a lot back then when I was still playing. Maybe it's just me but this does not catch my interest at all, all of this "new age" approach with every character being able to fulfill every role, every content in every zone scaling to your level so you feel "the challenge" even when passing through starting areas again, "active combat" etc.
MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.
Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?
Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)
I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea.
It's about as immersion breaking as fighting a level 10 wolf as a level 10 character and then fighting a level 72 wolf as a level 72 character, right? The arbitrariness of levels has always been there in almost every MMO ever. It's just always been a matter of how much of it you're willing to look past.
And why in the world would you feel sorry for anyone who thinks this is a good idea? They're the ones who will have a great time with the feature. If, for some reason, your play experience is truly ruined by this feature, they should feel sorry for you.
MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.
Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?
Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)
I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea.
It's about as immersion breaking as fighting a level 10 wolf as a level 10 character and then fighting a level 72 wolf as a level 72 character, right? The arbitrariness of levels has always been there in almost every MMO ever. It's just always been a matter of how much of it you're willing to look past.
And why in the world would you feel sorry for anyone who thinks this is a good idea? They're the ones who will have a great time with the feature. If, for some reason, your play experience is truly ruined by this feature, they should feel sorry for you.
I'm sorry for them because they don't know what they do miss. It's a great experience to play a computer game with thousands of other players, but if the gaming experience is like a walk in a park, is it really that great of an experience? I don't know about you guys, but i sure do feel great when i realise i can kick those wolves' ass on level 40 who made me corpse run 20 levels earlier. Similarily, if everything in a game is beatable regardless of a level, why even have levels in a first place? or gear?
It's so wrong in many levels what these devs are doing for WoW or any other MMO these days.
If some people are happy for what they do, i'm glad, but at the same time i'm sad so much better is kept hidden for these people and they don't know there could be something that was better than what they play atm.
doesn't rift already have this?? it's called " mentoring", it's where you lower your level to w/e lvl you choose and it scale your stats appropriately so that you can run with lowbie friends... you can even use it on random dungeon finder. also someone said why would a lvl 90 do this, you can't get xp... well what I'd they took another thing from rift and incorporated something akin to plainer attunment?
Originally posted by Beastn doesn't rift already have this?? it's called " mentoring", it's where you lower your level to w/e lvl you choose and it scale your stats appropriately so that you can run with lowbie friends... you can even use it on random dungeon finder. also someone said why would a lvl 90 do this, you can't get xp... well what I'd they took another thing from rift and incorporated something akin to plainer attunment?
Mentoring is very old system, city of heroes had that and it was released back in 2004. and that planar attunement type system was suppose to be available back in cata, it was suppose to be named "path of the titans", it was suppose to be new way of character progression with 6 brand new talent tree; each tree dedicated to each of the 6 titans, for some unknown reason Blizz did not add it after putting it in pts. but there is a rumor it will make it's way in next expansion. we can only hope.
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Originally posted by The1ceQueen I don't see what's wrong with how it is now. It's been like this for years where you could take a higher level in a dungeon with you to help run through for gear/gold/xp/achievements...why change it now? Makes no sense.
That's like saying that being able to run BRD with a raid and get credit should never have been changed.
MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.
Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?
Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)
I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea.
It's about as immersion breaking as fighting a level 10 wolf as a level 10 character and then fighting a level 72 wolf as a level 72 character, right? The arbitrariness of levels has always been there in almost every MMO ever. It's just always been a matter of how much of it you're willing to look past.
And why in the world would you feel sorry for anyone who thinks this is a good idea? They're the ones who will have a great time with the feature. If, for some reason, your play experience is truly ruined by this feature, they should feel sorry for you.
I'm sorry for them because they don't know what they do miss. It's a great experience to play a computer game with thousands of other players, but if the gaming experience is like a walk in a park, is it really that great of an experience? I don't know about you guys, but i sure do feel great when i realise i can kick those wolves' ass on level 40 who made me corpse run 20 levels earlier. Similarily, if everything in a game is beatable regardless of a level, why even have levels in a first place? or gear?
It's so wrong in many levels what these devs are doing for WoW or any other MMO these days.
If some people are happy for what they do, i'm glad, but at the same time i'm sad so much better is kept hidden for these people and they don't know there could be something that was better than what they play atm.
We have very clear idea of what we are talking about. and we also have had enough of mob stomping, now we don't feel like low level mob stomping at higher level and revel in it like an ignorant kid. and new players are overleveling so much that they miss lots of old dungeons, i myself never managed to do 1st 5/6 dungeons with other players because i became level 35 even before i knew it. this new feature will be great for many of us because we sometimes like to do things "mmo way".
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.
Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?
Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)
I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea.
It's about as immersion breaking as fighting a level 10 wolf as a level 10 character and then fighting a level 72 wolf as a level 72 character, right? The arbitrariness of levels has always been there in almost every MMO ever. It's just always been a matter of how much of it you're willing to look past.
And why in the world would you feel sorry for anyone who thinks this is a good idea? They're the ones who will have a great time with the feature. If, for some reason, your play experience is truly ruined by this feature, they should feel sorry for you.
I'm sorry for them because they don't know what they do miss. It's a great experience to play a computer game with thousands of other players, but if the gaming experience is like a walk in a park, is it really that great of an experience? I don't know about you guys, but i sure do feel great when i realise i can kick those wolves' ass on level 40 who made me corpse run 20 levels earlier. Similarily, if everything in a game is beatable regardless of a level, why even have levels in a first place? or gear?
It's so wrong in many levels what these devs are doing for WoW or any other MMO these days.
If some people are happy for what they do, i'm glad, but at the same time i'm sad so much better is kept hidden for these people and they don't know there could be something that was better than what they play atm.
Just as you feel everyone who buys into this system is somehow blind to what the system really is, or even what they really want for themselves, I'm inclined the feel the exact same way about you. On first instinct, I can't help but feel that deep down, you really would love this system if you could just be open-minded about it. But then I remind myself that everyone truly is different, and not everyone will enjoy the same things. So keep that in mind also. There's really no need to condescendingly feel sorry for anyone here.
On to other points.
It's a great experience to play a computer game with thousands of other players, but if the gaming experience is like a walk in a park, is it really that great of an experience?
So much can be said about this line alone. For one, one of the goals of a scaling system is to ensure the game never becomes a 'walk in the park.' Right now, parts of the game become a walk in the park because you can out-scale a dungeon to the point where it poses absolutely no threat to you. Scaling ensures every dungeon experience remains challenging to some meaningful extent. If you really don't want an effortless walk in the park, you should embrace an update like this.
Secondly, many players do find a literal virtual walk in the park to be a great experience. Back to the everyone enjoys different things mantra. Many of these virtual worlds are gorgeous places to absorb and take in. Sometimes it can be fun to just explore around and take screenshots of the breathtaking scenery.
But again, as someone who likes to go back and beat on a level 20 bear as a level 40 character, it seems you are very familiar with the notion of enjoying a walk in the park in your MMOs.
I don't know about you guys, but i sure do feel great when i realise i can kick those wolves' ass on level 40 who made me corpse run 20 levels earlier.
I certainly understanding the satisfaction of RPG progression, even if it's completely futile. I mean, all RPGs suffer from the Dragonball complex. You're faced with a big baddie who you can't beat, so you level up to become stronger in order to beat him. You're finally strong enough to win...but wait! It turns out he was holding back this entire time! He increases his power and pounds you into the ground...but wait! You were holding back too! You raise your power and vanquish him for good! You venture onward, reveling in your new strength until...you come across a higher level enemy who's so much stronger than your last enemy that he could one-shot him. You must raise your level and become stronger to take this new enemy on. And so on and so forth.
Anyway, yes, you could return to that level 20 alpha wolf as a level 40 knight and rip its heart out. Feels good. But for how long? How much time to you actually play around in lower level zones as a higher level character in WoW? How much actual fun gameplay do you enjoy there? For how long does reveling in the relativity of levels give you a power high?
Now let's compare it to a game that features scaling. Note that these examples you're talking about are in the open world, however, which is not the same as dungeon scaling. But I'll get to that. WoW isn't adding open world scaling at the moment. So there's no cause for alarm there on your part. I'll try to dispel your fears nonetheless.
First, you would still absolutely experience that coveted feeling of advancement. I had many of these exact same concerns going into GW2. Indeed, I'm pretty sure I posted a lot of the same things you are right now. After playing GW2, however, I can honestly say I couldn't be happier with how scaling in zones works. If I return to a level 20 zone as a level 40 character, I absolutely feel the growth in my power. I have better gear, which, even though it's scaled down, is still stronger than anything I could have gotten at level 20. I have more skills, more utility, and more traits, all of which better enable me to deal with a variety of situations. I had many of those exact same experiences you covet. I can remember getting bounced around by a pack of ettins in Queensdale, which could basically 3-shot players at level 10. I found myself back there sometime in the future when I was level 50ish, saw the pack of ettins, and charged. I was able to dodge around their knockdowns. I had traits that gave me vigor, which allowed me to keep my endurance up so I could do so. I now had a skill that granted me stability, which cancels their knockdown if I got hit. I did more damage. I was tankier. And I satisfyingly dropped them to the ground.
Now I really want to stress 2 points here: 1) this was so much more satisfying than simply being able to come back and 1-shot them all because my stats have increased exponentially, and 2) even though I was clearly more powerful (and just more skilled with my class), it wasn't an effortless walk in the park - in fact, there was a very real danger I could still die if I got sloppy.
The effect of my first point is straightforward. If it's satisfaction you seek in the experience of power gain (no matter how arbitrary it all is, as we've already highlighted), I honestly feel a good scaling system can be way more satisfying and rewarding. Not only do you still feel the power increase, but you feel more directly a part of it, the reason behind your new power. It's not just math doing all the work. You were there using your new skills to your advantage; it was your skill, your tactics, your in the moment decisions, in addition to the math that allowed you to pwnface.
The effect of the second point is much more profound. Because even enemies in low level zones pose a threat, because combat and content is still engaging in every zone of every level to all players no matter their level, the entire world remains relevant. I want to put that in boldface and highlight it and increase it's size, but I don't want to be annoying about it. One of the single coolest things about GW2 for me is the fact that players can and do continue to play in every single zone in the game. Moreover, this means the developers can (and do) utilitze the entire world in the biweekly patches they've been pumping out. One month they'll focus on events in one zone, another month another zone. In WoW, my favorite zone was Ashenvale. I would make it a point to quest through it every time I leveled a character. But that was it. There was nothing else I could do there. It, like all zones, was just a numerical stepping stone to the next level interval. I used to return there as a max level character, but there was absolutely nothing to do. Like literally nothing. 1-shot auto attack mobs for kicks? Harass members of the opposing faction, again 1-shotting them? In GW2, on the other hand, I spend more time in level 1-30 zones than I do in level 80 zones (and that's a choice; I don't have to.) Now there are other features in the game that also are necessary to enable that - such as the nature of events instead of quests, or the way dailies work in that game, or the way the 2-week living story patches send players to different zones at different times - but that's all deviating from the point, which is that none of that is possible without zone scaling.
Scaling keeps things you've outleveled relevant, which is, in my opinion, it's biggest boon.
OK so...dungeons. Enough of the open world discussion. WoW is talking about scaling dungeons, not the open world. Dungeons and raids, even more lamentably than the open world, become utterly worthless once you outlevel them when a new expansion comes out, sometimes even when you outgear them within the same expansion. The last expansion I played, WotlK, was plagued by this. First of all, there was so much less dungeon and raid content at the release of WotlK than there was at the release of BC. But what's worse was once you moved on to the next tier (ulduar when it came out), there was virtually no reason to ever set foot in Naxx again. Once ToC came out, Ulduar faded into the abyss. Once ICC came out, ToC became a forgotten memory.
With some measure of scaling in place, this can be prevented. All tiers can remain somewhat relevant, challenging, and fun. The missing ingredient, of course, is incentive. Why would players want to continue running Ulduar and Naxx, or even BT, Hyjal, SSC, TK, ZA, and Kara for that matter, while Icecrown Citadel is out?
Off the top of my head, incentive is broken down into 4 categories in MMOs: fun, prestige, progress, and aesthetics. Fun is the obvious one, but also, I think, the most fallible. Players will only continue to do something so much just for the fun of it. Repeating at some point becomes decidedly unfun (aka 'grindy). Prestige plays on players' competitive spirits, that perpetual drive to obtain realm firsts, or that legendary weapon, or that hard-to-get title or achievement or mount. Players love to show off what they've accomplished in game. Progress is all about your character advancement - stats, spells, gear. And finally, cosmetics. This is a more modern online gaming development and is likely a result of the high graphical quality of the modern era. GW2 makes its living solely off of cosmetic advancement. There's no 'gear treadmill' per se, but there is absolutely a 'skin treadmill.' Every patch offers a bunch of shiny new goodies to make you look cooler or better or just different, even if they don't add any stats at all. League of Legends survives almost solely off of skin sales. And it's my understanding that, due to transmogrification, refining one's look has also become popular in WoW.
In any case, this is my biggest concern when it comes to introducing scaling to dungeons in WoW. I hope they manage to provide proper incentive for all content.
Similarily, if everything in a game is beatable regardless of a level, why even have levels in a first place? or gear?
I think this is the biggest misconception of scaling, or at least the one I see the most often, which is that the entire experience of relative power and progress will vanish. That's just not the case. You still can't hope to survive a level 25 zone as a level 15 character, as you don't get scaled up. Similarly, you still can't enter dungeons and raids until you meet their level requirements - and, in the case of WoW, their itemlevel requirements. If you enter a dungeon or raid at its base Ilevel requirements and then return with significantly improved gear, or with improved new spells, you're going to notice a significant decrease in the place's difficulty. It's not as if none of your progress has any affect. Not in the slightest.
And again, what's the advantage to scaling? All content has the chance to remain relevant, challenging, and fun forever and always.
And holy crap, I've rambled on for far longer than I intended. I hope my post wasn't too scattered. I've been working on it in between clients at work..
Comments
if the change is optional
- i don't see how it can be anything but positive because it's another option for gameplay
EQ2 fan sites
I will give the opposite opinion. I think this is one of the biggest failures in GW2. Your character never ever seems to be progressing in that game because all the content under you remains the same. I'm ok with voluntary mentoring lowering your level but making it mandatory just kills any sense of accomplishment that comes with leveling.
When GW2's release was looming on the horizon, the case I always made for scaling in the dungeons of Tyria was to ponder how freaking amazing WoW would be today if every dungeon and raid didn't instantly become obsolete as soon as the next expansion or, in some cases, the next tier of content was released. Imagine if BRD, UBRS, LBRS, Strat, Scholo, Dire Maul, MC, BWL, ZG, AQ, Kara, Mag, Gruel, SSC, TK, Hyjal, BT, Sunwell, Naxx, Malygos, Ulduar, ToC, IC plus every Cata and MoP raid and dungeon were still relevant and challenging. How ridiculous would that be? The game would be absolutely huge by now. Instead, it remains almost exactly the same size no matter how many expansions are added because 95% the content that came before becomes irrelevant and quickly neglected.
Overall, I just think the pros of such a scaling system simply vastly outweigh the cons. The only cons I can think of is the loss of speed running people through dungeons, or novelty solo attempts on old bosses. The pro is that you could potentially get 4 expansions worth of viable end game content back.
There are some obvious obstacles, however. "Funness" as a sole virtue of content is usually only enough to keep players engaged for a short while. They tend to require some other incentive. Throughout the history of end game raiding in WoW, that incentive has been twofold: prestige and character improvement. Prestige comes in many forms: jockeying for server first kills, gear, titles, achievements, mounts. Character improvement is solely the realm of gear, and sometimes reputation grinds. Additionally, games like GW2 make a nearly infinite hobby out of cosmetic advancement. I haven't played WoW since they added transmogrification, but I assume old raids and dungeons also presently and can continue to serve the function of cosmetic gear vendors.
For dowscaled retro-raiding to be a homerun in WoW, I think they need to start by opening them up along with a series of legacy achievements, and possibly some rewards to go with attaining those achievements. These achievements and their associated rewards will essentially be a gigantic bit of new raid progression for players to chase after. Guilds can post their progress. The works.
Second, they obviously need to make them challenging according to players' adjusted scale, or else none of this competitive drive for progress holds any water.
Lastly, there need to be long term rewards to keep players coming back for a while in the long run. In the future, a new raid tier is going to be released and will occupy everyone's time again. But once the excitement and progress wears off, there should be reason to continue to go back to all the old stuff once again.
God, please no... 1000 runs for mount solo, with scaling with require full party and infinity runs...
Or, keep old system, but introduce scaling and new rewards for those who would like to do scaled dungeons/raids.
About Dynamic events... Wow already has too much daily quests, repetable scripted content called dynamic events is not needed, seriously.
I don't think it is cut and dry, and I also don't think we know enough about what they have planned.
Too much content is not always a good thing. LFR is a good example of this, when you have a limited number of people spread across a large range of content instead of focusing on the same content it can make it very hard to get groups together. There are ways to address this though. LFD does this by having a shared random queue. Catch up mechanisms in the case of LFR can help.
As long as it is optional and it has thought of and addressed the potential pitfalls, it shouldn't be disastrous.
However personally, I think instanced content takes people out of the world and we already have far too much of that. Instead I wish they would spend their time developing more scalable group content that happens out in the world, instead of the game world being little more than a lobby for small group content like any number of console games.
When it comes to fun, yes it is an MMORPG so there will be some repetition. The ability to hide that repetition so it doesn't feel repetitious is essential to fun. There are lots of ways different games handle that. Some use randomization like Wildstar appears to be doing with switching up how instances work every week, or like many diablo based games do with randomizing areas. Some provide visual variety to help hide repetition.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
And opens up the possibility of an additional community building system--sidekicking/exemplaring.
Probably too late for WoW really, but the idea dates to (at least) '04.
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But yes, you can expect some (possibly massive) resistance from certain quarters along predictable lines.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
always. options are always good. I like farm trans mog skins like everyone else so .
That and make all classes available to one character, FFXIV style plus lower XP gain. That would allow me to spend more time on certain zones and dungeons.
The world is beautiful full of content but you overlevel it so damn fast.
Which is really a shame because it didn't use to the be that way. They want players focused on the latest content so they have sped everything up so fast that all lower level content has become essentially a meaningless blur.
The old world used to be a beautiful journey that was substantial and because it did take time instead of blazing through everything it felt like a huge accomplishment. No when you hit max level it is more like, ”oh, already, that was fast". I don't think dungeon scaling really solves that issue, it is still a race to max and a race to currency caps, it just means they can focus less on creating new content by giving everybody a bunch of scaling old content. If anything it keeps people in instances more than ever instead of out in the world.
It really is a shame though, because you would think all the old world content would be one of WoW's strengths, but it really isn't because you plow through it so fast, as far as a time sink goes it isn't that much. Other games provide nearly as much content when talking about relevant content and play time. If all that content had stayed at it's original speed, not only would the journey be far more interesting, but it would be hard for any competing games to provide nearly as much relevant content. But to address the problem of players not being able to play together they decided to make it a race to max instead of coming up with some form of rewarding mentor program, and thus due to that race lower level content quickly becomes largely irrelevant.
The gear on your back, leveling, and achievements should be enough to show progression. I would rather not have to exclude entire areas because there is no challenge left to go back and do them. I guess everyone is ok with buying a game only to play up to the end and put it on the shelf.
My sense of accomplishment is the fun in playing the game with friends. This system allows me to invite new friends to GW2 and joining them without them losing xp due to my level. They win by gaining full xp and I win by gaining it too.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I don't like this..
MMORPG is a type of game where you (typically) gain levels and improve your gear.
Now they are suggesting a feature that makes your level and gear meaningless (even more than what it is now)?
Not only that, but it would also destroy that little bit of an immersion there still is left in WoW (those pirates in Deadmines are the same no matter my level or gear?)
I'm truly sorry for everyone who thinks this is a good idea.
It's about as immersion breaking as fighting a level 10 wolf as a level 10 character and then fighting a level 72 wolf as a level 72 character, right? The arbitrariness of levels has always been there in almost every MMO ever. It's just always been a matter of how much of it you're willing to look past.
And why in the world would you feel sorry for anyone who thinks this is a good idea? They're the ones who will have a great time with the feature. If, for some reason, your play experience is truly ruined by this feature, they should feel sorry for you.
I'm sorry for them because they don't know what they do miss. It's a great experience to play a computer game with thousands of other players, but if the gaming experience is like a walk in a park, is it really that great of an experience? I don't know about you guys, but i sure do feel great when i realise i can kick those wolves' ass on level 40 who made me corpse run 20 levels earlier. Similarily, if everything in a game is beatable regardless of a level, why even have levels in a first place? or gear?
It's so wrong in many levels what these devs are doing for WoW or any other MMO these days.
If some people are happy for what they do, i'm glad, but at the same time i'm sad so much better is kept hidden for these people and they don't know there could be something that was better than what they play atm.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I like the level scaling system. If we are bound to have levels in mmos then i will always welcome level scaling.
Mentoring is very old system, city of heroes had that and it was released back in 2004. and that planar attunement type system was suppose to be available back in cata, it was suppose to be named "path of the titans", it was suppose to be new way of character progression with 6 brand new talent tree; each tree dedicated to each of the 6 titans, for some unknown reason Blizz did not add it after putting it in pts. but there is a rumor it will make it's way in next expansion. we can only hope.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
That's like saying that being able to run BRD with a raid and get credit should never have been changed.
If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.
We have very clear idea of what we are talking about. and we also have had enough of mob stomping, now we don't feel like low level mob stomping at higher level and revel in it like an ignorant kid. and new players are overleveling so much that they miss lots of old dungeons, i myself never managed to do 1st 5/6 dungeons with other players because i became level 35 even before i knew it. this new feature will be great for many of us because we sometimes like to do things "mmo way".
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Just as you feel everyone who buys into this system is somehow blind to what the system really is, or even what they really want for themselves, I'm inclined the feel the exact same way about you. On first instinct, I can't help but feel that deep down, you really would love this system if you could just be open-minded about it. But then I remind myself that everyone truly is different, and not everyone will enjoy the same things. So keep that in mind also. There's really no need to condescendingly feel sorry for anyone here.
On to other points.
So much can be said about this line alone. For one, one of the goals of a scaling system is to ensure the game never becomes a 'walk in the park.' Right now, parts of the game become a walk in the park because you can out-scale a dungeon to the point where it poses absolutely no threat to you. Scaling ensures every dungeon experience remains challenging to some meaningful extent. If you really don't want an effortless walk in the park, you should embrace an update like this.
Secondly, many players do find a literal virtual walk in the park to be a great experience. Back to the everyone enjoys different things mantra. Many of these virtual worlds are gorgeous places to absorb and take in. Sometimes it can be fun to just explore around and take screenshots of the breathtaking scenery.
But again, as someone who likes to go back and beat on a level 20 bear as a level 40 character, it seems you are very familiar with the notion of enjoying a walk in the park in your MMOs.
I certainly understanding the satisfaction of RPG progression, even if it's completely futile. I mean, all RPGs suffer from the Dragonball complex. You're faced with a big baddie who you can't beat, so you level up to become stronger in order to beat him. You're finally strong enough to win...but wait! It turns out he was holding back this entire time! He increases his power and pounds you into the ground...but wait! You were holding back too! You raise your power and vanquish him for good! You venture onward, reveling in your new strength until...you come across a higher level enemy who's so much stronger than your last enemy that he could one-shot him. You must raise your level and become stronger to take this new enemy on. And so on and so forth.
Anyway, yes, you could return to that level 20 alpha wolf as a level 40 knight and rip its heart out. Feels good. But for how long? How much time to you actually play around in lower level zones as a higher level character in WoW? How much actual fun gameplay do you enjoy there? For how long does reveling in the relativity of levels give you a power high?
Now let's compare it to a game that features scaling. Note that these examples you're talking about are in the open world, however, which is not the same as dungeon scaling. But I'll get to that. WoW isn't adding open world scaling at the moment. So there's no cause for alarm there on your part. I'll try to dispel your fears nonetheless.
First, you would still absolutely experience that coveted feeling of advancement. I had many of these exact same concerns going into GW2. Indeed, I'm pretty sure I posted a lot of the same things you are right now. After playing GW2, however, I can honestly say I couldn't be happier with how scaling in zones works. If I return to a level 20 zone as a level 40 character, I absolutely feel the growth in my power. I have better gear, which, even though it's scaled down, is still stronger than anything I could have gotten at level 20. I have more skills, more utility, and more traits, all of which better enable me to deal with a variety of situations. I had many of those exact same experiences you covet. I can remember getting bounced around by a pack of ettins in Queensdale, which could basically 3-shot players at level 10. I found myself back there sometime in the future when I was level 50ish, saw the pack of ettins, and charged. I was able to dodge around their knockdowns. I had traits that gave me vigor, which allowed me to keep my endurance up so I could do so. I now had a skill that granted me stability, which cancels their knockdown if I got hit. I did more damage. I was tankier. And I satisfyingly dropped them to the ground.
Now I really want to stress 2 points here: 1) this was so much more satisfying than simply being able to come back and 1-shot them all because my stats have increased exponentially, and 2) even though I was clearly more powerful (and just more skilled with my class), it wasn't an effortless walk in the park - in fact, there was a very real danger I could still die if I got sloppy.
The effect of my first point is straightforward. If it's satisfaction you seek in the experience of power gain (no matter how arbitrary it all is, as we've already highlighted), I honestly feel a good scaling system can be way more satisfying and rewarding. Not only do you still feel the power increase, but you feel more directly a part of it, the reason behind your new power. It's not just math doing all the work. You were there using your new skills to your advantage; it was your skill, your tactics, your in the moment decisions, in addition to the math that allowed you to pwnface.
The effect of the second point is much more profound. Because even enemies in low level zones pose a threat, because combat and content is still engaging in every zone of every level to all players no matter their level, the entire world remains relevant. I want to put that in boldface and highlight it and increase it's size, but I don't want to be annoying about it. One of the single coolest things about GW2 for me is the fact that players can and do continue to play in every single zone in the game. Moreover, this means the developers can (and do) utilitze the entire world in the biweekly patches they've been pumping out. One month they'll focus on events in one zone, another month another zone. In WoW, my favorite zone was Ashenvale. I would make it a point to quest through it every time I leveled a character. But that was it. There was nothing else I could do there. It, like all zones, was just a numerical stepping stone to the next level interval. I used to return there as a max level character, but there was absolutely nothing to do. Like literally nothing. 1-shot auto attack mobs for kicks? Harass members of the opposing faction, again 1-shotting them? In GW2, on the other hand, I spend more time in level 1-30 zones than I do in level 80 zones (and that's a choice; I don't have to.) Now there are other features in the game that also are necessary to enable that - such as the nature of events instead of quests, or the way dailies work in that game, or the way the 2-week living story patches send players to different zones at different times - but that's all deviating from the point, which is that none of that is possible without zone scaling.
Scaling keeps things you've outleveled relevant, which is, in my opinion, it's biggest boon.
OK so...dungeons. Enough of the open world discussion. WoW is talking about scaling dungeons, not the open world. Dungeons and raids, even more lamentably than the open world, become utterly worthless once you outlevel them when a new expansion comes out, sometimes even when you outgear them within the same expansion. The last expansion I played, WotlK, was plagued by this. First of all, there was so much less dungeon and raid content at the release of WotlK than there was at the release of BC. But what's worse was once you moved on to the next tier (ulduar when it came out), there was virtually no reason to ever set foot in Naxx again. Once ToC came out, Ulduar faded into the abyss. Once ICC came out, ToC became a forgotten memory.
With some measure of scaling in place, this can be prevented. All tiers can remain somewhat relevant, challenging, and fun. The missing ingredient, of course, is incentive. Why would players want to continue running Ulduar and Naxx, or even BT, Hyjal, SSC, TK, ZA, and Kara for that matter, while Icecrown Citadel is out?
Off the top of my head, incentive is broken down into 4 categories in MMOs: fun, prestige, progress, and aesthetics. Fun is the obvious one, but also, I think, the most fallible. Players will only continue to do something so much just for the fun of it. Repeating at some point becomes decidedly unfun (aka 'grindy). Prestige plays on players' competitive spirits, that perpetual drive to obtain realm firsts, or that legendary weapon, or that hard-to-get title or achievement or mount. Players love to show off what they've accomplished in game. Progress is all about your character advancement - stats, spells, gear. And finally, cosmetics. This is a more modern online gaming development and is likely a result of the high graphical quality of the modern era. GW2 makes its living solely off of cosmetic advancement. There's no 'gear treadmill' per se, but there is absolutely a 'skin treadmill.' Every patch offers a bunch of shiny new goodies to make you look cooler or better or just different, even if they don't add any stats at all. League of Legends survives almost solely off of skin sales. And it's my understanding that, due to transmogrification, refining one's look has also become popular in WoW.
In any case, this is my biggest concern when it comes to introducing scaling to dungeons in WoW. I hope they manage to provide proper incentive for all content.
I think this is the biggest misconception of scaling, or at least the one I see the most often, which is that the entire experience of relative power and progress will vanish. That's just not the case. You still can't hope to survive a level 25 zone as a level 15 character, as you don't get scaled up. Similarly, you still can't enter dungeons and raids until you meet their level requirements - and, in the case of WoW, their itemlevel requirements. If you enter a dungeon or raid at its base Ilevel requirements and then return with significantly improved gear, or with improved new spells, you're going to notice a significant decrease in the place's difficulty. It's not as if none of your progress has any affect. Not in the slightest.
And again, what's the advantage to scaling? All content has the chance to remain relevant, challenging, and fun forever and always.
And holy crap, I've rambled on for far longer than I intended. I hope my post wasn't too scattered. I've been working on it in between clients at work..