Lets see, bricks to the face, somebody comes to cut off your fingers? 100$ in new character fees? My goodness is this the consensus when perma-death is brought up? PD isnt supposed to be comparable to physical harm or financial folly... its supposed to incite good decision making, caution and a sense of triumph when you survive an encounter. In the games you play now you kill thousands and thousands of creatures just like everybody else that plays your game and this continues until your inevitable max level and migration to a different yet similar game.
Im not saying add PD to every mmo but at least humanize a few.. these games are practically God Mode
The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk, especially for people who have nothing better to do than sit in front of a computer playing games all day. Granted, there really is no real reward either, it's just the illusion of reward. If you're going to talk about making good decisions, people aren't going to do anything remotely dangerous in these games because the risks are too high, just like the majority of people don't go bungee jumping off bridges or base jump off buildings because the potential risk is a lot higher than whatever reward they'd get. If you're only going to appeal to e-sports weenies, the game is dead because there aren't enough of them to financially support the game. If not, then most people will quit the game out of boredom because there's nothing exciting to do without risking a catastrophic loss.
Most people don't do those things in real life, they play games to get the sensation without the risks associated. If you want that excitement, go jump off a bridge.
The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk,
I don't agree with that. Do you consider time and money completely without value? Because someone can have a hell of a lot of time and money wrapped up in their character. Obviously they're not risking "real death" (which would be retarded) but they are risking something they have invested time, money and effort into. Very different from a game where you just respawn when you "die".
The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk,
I don't agree with that. Do you consider time and money completely without value? Because someone can have a hell of a lot of time and money wrapped up in their character. Obviously they're not risking "real death" (which would be retarded) but they are risking something they have invested time, money and effort into. Very different from a game where you just respawn when you "die".
No, that's one reason why I'd never play permadeath because my time and my effort are worth more to me than some pointless game mechanic. That said, there are some advocates who pretend like they're losing something important and they ought to be able to force everyone else to lose that important thing, because they're somehow "hardcore". "Hardcore" and "losing pixels" don't really go together IMO.
I've brought that concept up and lots of people who want permadeath are perfectly happy to forego the time and effort, having little or no progression, so they can have their permadeath, which really means they don't want MMOs at all.
The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk,
I don't agree with that. Do you consider time and money completely without value? Because someone can have a hell of a lot of time and money wrapped up in their character. Obviously they're not risking "real death" (which would be retarded) but they are risking something they have invested time, money and effort into. Very different from a game where you just respawn when you "die".
No, that's one reason why I'd never play permadeath because my time and my effort are worth more to me than some pointless game mechanic. That said, there are some advocates who pretend like they're losing something important and they ought to be able to force everyone else to lose that important thing, because they're somehow "hardcore". "Hardcore" and "losing pixels" don't really go together IMO.
I've brought that concept up and lots of people who want permadeath are perfectly happy to forego the time and effort, having little or no progression, so they can have their permadeath, which really means they don't want MMOs at all.
But you're operating under the assumption that the "value" you're getting out of playing a game is attained by accumulating stats and items, and that's what gives your time and effort "worth." I think there are other ways to get value out of a gaming experience., building relationships and working towards goals that are bigger than your character among them. One does not physically have anything more or less with an eternal character than a mortal one. They are just two different game types. Skill/wealth retention does not have essential value. The player chooses to assign value to it.
The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk,
I don't agree with that. Do you consider time and money completely without value? Because someone can have a hell of a lot of time and money wrapped up in their character. Obviously they're not risking "real death" (which would be retarded) but they are risking something they have invested time, money and effort into. Very different from a game where you just respawn when you "die".
Well, if the time spent playing the game is fun, is it a loss?
What people are against is not loss of anything ... we are talking about games here. What people are against is PD requires players to replay large parts of the game, if they want to see the next part of content, and people don't like to repeat.
The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk,
I don't agree with that. Do you consider time and money completely without value? Because someone can have a hell of a lot of time and money wrapped up in their character. Obviously they're not risking "real death" (which would be retarded) but they are risking something they have invested time, money and effort into. Very different from a game where you just respawn when you "die".
Well, if the time spent playing the game is fun, is it a loss?
What people are against is not loss of anything ... we are talking about games here. What people are against is PD requires players to replay large parts of the game, if they want to see the next part of content, and people don't like to repeat.
People play team sports, even though they are essentially the same "content" over and over. The variation is how you play it. Same is true of multiplayer games. I don't see why MMOs have to be the exception. Can replay never be enjoyable? Multiplayer should inherently provide variation.
My big issue with perma death is it tends to do the opposite of what people think it does. You take fewer risks, you challenge yourself less, overall you end up with a less enjoyable game for most players.
That is not to say you can't build a game like this and have it work, you just need to understand that it caters to being risk adverse which is a huge turn off for a lot of players.
There are a lot of Anti-PD people in this thread trying to tell others how pro-PD people are or what pro-PD people want. Let me clarify a few things.
I am Pro-PD. I am not a "hardcore" gamer. I think the hardcore label is stupid and mostly confuses people because they have different definitions for it. I know some people on the pro-PD side have said things like "PD separates the men from the boys" or other such things. I completely disagree with that. There is nothing "casual" about being against PD and there is nothing hardcore about being PD. most people who like PD understand this.
I am not an e-sport gamer as a poster suggested nor are most other PD fans. I'm pro-PD because I like the idea of permanence. Most other MMOs punish people through time sinks. Corpse runs, XP debt, and even gold sinks like armor repair are really time sinks since it just takes some time grinding mobs to make up that money lost. There's nothing wrong with people who prefer the time sink method. I, however, and others like me, would rather a permanent consequence for our actions like PD. ToA has the perfect system to prevent this getting out of hand by giving each player 100 lives. Plenty of room to gain some experience before that final death. Also it allows mistakes due to lag, etc.
Some posters have tried to portray it as if people who like PD have nothing better to do than play games or don't value their time/money. That's stupid. Whether or not you like PD has nothing to do with whether you have a life outside of videogames. That should be obvious.
Some posters have tried to make it seem as though players who want PD don't want real MMOs because Pd forces the game to put more focus on the world and it's development over time vs. the individual characters development. This is also stupid. MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer online role playing game. If I'm playing a role (even if it's finite) in a game online with a massive amount of players than it is an MMORPG. An MMORPG doesn't HAVE to take place in a stagnant world where characters have no impact and essentially run on leveling treadmills beside each other. Most MMOs are like that but it is not a requirement. There can be an MMO with personal development but with a greater focus on world growth. PD could work in a game like that.
Lastly, someone said that PD causes players to redo content. In a theme park MMO yes. In a sandbox MMO without levels and without level zones no. Personally I wouldn't want to play a themepark MMO with PD for that exact reason but in a well made sandbox designed with PD in mind it can work.
The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk,
I don't agree with that. Do you consider time and money completely without value? Because someone can have a hell of a lot of time and money wrapped up in their character. Obviously they're not risking "real death" (which would be retarded) but they are risking something they have invested time, money and effort into. Very different from a game where you just respawn when you "die".
Well, if the time spent playing the game is fun, is it a loss?
What people are against is not loss of anything ... we are talking about games here. What people are against is PD requires players to replay large parts of the game, if they want to see the next part of content, and people don't like to repeat.
People play team sports, even though they are essentially the same "content" over and over. The variation is how you play it. Same is true of multiplayer games. I don't see why MMOs have to be the exception. Can replay never be enjoyable? Multiplayer should inherently provide variation.
MP games are not the same (sports or video). Every play is different because you are facing humans.
PvE is different. Do you want to watch teh same cut-scenes, click the same quest dialogues, kill the same mob at the same spot with the same spell again, again, and again? Not me.
The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk,
I don't agree with that. Do you consider time and money completely without value? Because someone can have a hell of a lot of time and money wrapped up in their character. Obviously they're not risking "real death" (which would be retarded) but they are risking something they have invested time, money and effort into. Very different from a game where you just respawn when you "die".
Well, if the time spent playing the game is fun, is it a loss?
What people are against is not loss of anything ... we are talking about games here. What people are against is PD requires players to replay large parts of the game, if they want to see the next part of content, and people don't like to repeat.
People play team sports, even though they are essentially the same "content" over and over. The variation is how you play it. Same is true of multiplayer games. I don't see why MMOs have to be the exception. Can replay never be enjoyable? Multiplayer should inherently provide variation.
MP games are not the same (sports or video). Every play is different because you are facing humans.
PvE is different. Do you want to watch teh same cut-scenes, click the same quest dialogues, kill the same mob at the same spot with the same spell again, again, and again? Not me.
Of course not, that's why that kind of content doesn't work in a permadeath game. But something less prescriptive could work.
Of course not, that's why that kind of content doesn't work in a permadeath game. But something less prescriptive could work.
oh, optional PD works. Just look at D3.
But if you have a forced PD game, i doubt the audience will be anything but small.
I'm not talking about optional PD, more just not having a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative. Capitalizing on the multiplayer-ness more for progression so as to make it feel fresher when starting over.
Of course not, that's why that kind of content doesn't work in a permadeath game. But something less prescriptive could work.
oh, optional PD works. Just look at D3.
But if you have a forced PD game, i doubt the audience will be anything but small.
I'm not talking about optional PD, more just not having a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative. Capitalizing on the multiplayer-ness more for progression so as to make it feel fresher when starting over.
In that case, i doubt you will get anything but a small audience.
In fact, i doubt there will be many devs willing to make such a game.
Of course not, that's why that kind of content doesn't work in a permadeath game. But something less prescriptive could work.
oh, optional PD works. Just look at D3.
But if you have a forced PD game, i doubt the audience will be anything but small.
I'm not talking about optional PD, more just not having a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative. Capitalizing on the multiplayer-ness more for progression so as to make it feel fresher when starting over.
In that case, i doubt you will get anything but a small audience.
In fact, i doubt there will be many devs willing to make such a game.
I don't disagree with you on that. I'm looking at this as a discussion of concepts, not economic viability. Plenty of good ideas are a tough sell... doesn't mean it's not worth delving into them.
I don't disagree with you on that. I'm looking at this as a discussion of concepts, not economic viability. Plenty of good ideas are a tough sell... doesn't mean it's not worth delving into them.
Sure, if you goal is to have some fun in discussions, pull out concepts that are not in mass production is not uninteresting.
Whether the ideas are "good", of course, is a matter of perspective.
Of course not, that's why that kind of content doesn't work in a permadeath game. But something less prescriptive could work.
oh, optional PD works. Just look at D3.
But if you have a forced PD game, i doubt the audience will be anything but small.
I'm not talking about optional PD, more just not having a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative. Capitalizing on the multiplayer-ness more for progression so as to make it feel fresher when starting over.
In that case, i doubt you will get anything but a small audience.
In fact, i doubt there will be many devs willing to make such a game.
Are you saying that you doubt that a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative? Because many examples exist EVE Online being the first to come to mind. Or are you saying that you doubt a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative and has PD? I would disagree but that would make more sense.
There already exist multiple MMOs that don't follow the typical the theme park structure. When most people talk about PD in an MMO they envision it in a sandbox type MMO. Thus upon death there will be no repetitive content when starting over, no being forced into beginning level zones, etc., because those things typically don't exist in a sandbox MMO.
No, that's one reason why I'd never play permadeath because my time and my effort are worth more to me than some pointless game mechanic. That said, there are some advocates who pretend like they're losing something important and they ought to be able to force everyone else to lose that important thing, because they're somehow "hardcore". "Hardcore" and "losing pixels" don't really go together IMO.
I've brought that concept up and lots of people who want permadeath are perfectly happy to forego the time and effort, having little or no progression, so they can have their permadeath, which really means they don't want MMOs at all.
But you're operating under the assumption that the "value" you're getting out of playing a game is attained by accumulating stats and items, and that's what gives your time and effort "worth." I think there are other ways to get value out of a gaming experience., building relationships and working towards goals that are bigger than your character among them. One does not physically have anything more or less with an eternal character than a mortal one. They are just two different game types. Skill/wealth retention does not have essential value. The player chooses to assign value to it.
No, the "value" I get out of any game is having fun. If accumulating stats and items is fun, then yes, that contributes to it. I find no fun in PvP or raiding, thus I don't do it. I find no fun in losing all of the time I have invested in a game, therefore I don't do it. It is true that everyone is free to assign any value they wish to whatever they do. I do not assign any value to playing a hardcore game and losing my character. That's why I keep saying *I* would never play such a game. Your mileage may vary.
Are you saying that you doubt that a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative? Because many examples exist EVE Online being the first to come to mind. Or are you saying that you doubt a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative and has PD? I would disagree but that would make more sense.
There already exist multiple MMOs that don't follow the typical the theme park structure. When most people talk about PD in an MMO they envision it in a sandbox type MMO. Thus upon death there will be no repetitive content when starting over, no being forced into beginning level zones, etc., because those things typically don't exist in a sandbox MMO.
I am curious. How is sandbox content not repetitive? I find it is very repetitive - even without PD.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I'm not talking about optional PD, more just not having a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative. Capitalizing on the multiplayer-ness more for progression so as to make it feel fresher when starting over.
In that case, i doubt you will get anything but a small audience.
In fact, i doubt there will be many devs willing to make such a game.
Are you saying that you doubt that a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative? Because many examples exist EVE Online being the first to come to mind. Or are you saying that you doubt a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative and has PD? I would disagree but that would make more sense.
No, because there just isn't a big enough audience to justify making such things. People always point to EvE, but you notice nobody has made another one like EvE, right? There's just not enough meat on that particular bone.
There already exist multiple MMOs that don't follow the typical the theme park structure. When most people talk about PD in an MMO they envision it in a sandbox type MMO. Thus upon death there will be no repetitive content when starting over, no being forced into beginning level zones, etc., because those things typically don't exist in a sandbox MMO.
The same mechanics that exist in a themepark exist in a sandbox, there are only so many ways to level so it doesn't really matter if you're killing things in the same dungeon over and over, or just standing out in the middle of nowhere killing things, you're still engaging in the same repetitive content, it's just not scripted.
Are you saying that you doubt that a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative? Because many examples exist EVE Online being the first to come to mind. Or are you saying that you doubt a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative and has PD? I would disagree but that would make more sense.
There already exist multiple MMOs that don't follow the typical the theme park structure. When most people talk about PD in an MMO they envision it in a sandbox type MMO. Thus upon death there will be no repetitive content when starting over, no being forced into beginning level zones, etc., because those things typically don't exist in a sandbox MMO.
I am curious. How is sandbox content not repetitive? I find it is very repetitive - even without PD.
Then how to make it less repetitive? I mentioned multiplayer games, which essentially have "repetitive" content but still draw people back because of the shifting element of player interactions. How would more interplayer interaction in low-level tasks effect replayability? I think content needs to be replayable but not repeatable, which is to say it should never look exactly the same twice. Taking advantage of other players in the game is a good way to add that catalyst of change.
No, because there just isn't a big enough audience to justify making such things. People always point to EvE, but you notice nobody has made another one like EvE, right? There's just not enough meat on that particular bone.
And even Eve is a small game, and it does not have true PD (you can buy insurance).
Are you saying that you doubt that a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative? Because many examples exist EVE Online being the first to come to mind. Or are you saying that you doubt a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative and has PD? I would disagree but that would make more sense.
There already exist multiple MMOs that don't follow the typical the theme park structure. When most people talk about PD in an MMO they envision it in a sandbox type MMO. Thus upon death there will be no repetitive content when starting over, no being forced into beginning level zones, etc., because those things typically don't exist in a sandbox MMO.
I am curious. How is sandbox content not repetitive? I find it is very repetitive - even without PD.
Hmm interesting...I guess it's just one of those different strokes for different folks kind of things.
Since you said you're curious I'll explain my perspective. I can only stomach about 3 kill ten x quests and maybe 2 fetch quests before I feel bored in an MMO. So the themeparks to me are very very repetitive as almost every quest is a variation of those two types. I found Eve less repetitive because you can do whatever you want. Want to be a drug smuggler? A con man? A business owner? Do you have to do kill ten x quests? Nope. You just go and start smuggling, start conning or start up your business. Want to be a trade expert? Want to cultivate planets for resources? Want to explore for ship wrecks or abnormal phenomenon? Want to be a ninja scavenger (the vultures of space)? I wonder how many x I will have to kill to do those things? None! Just start trading, cultivating, exploring and scavenging. That's just the tip of the iceberg. That to me is not repetitive.
I'm not talking about optional PD, more just not having a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative. Capitalizing on the multiplayer-ness more for progression so as to make it feel fresher when starting over.
In that case, i doubt you will get anything but a small audience.
In fact, i doubt there will be many devs willing to make such a game.
Are you saying that you doubt that a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative? Because many examples exist EVE Online being the first to come to mind. Or are you saying that you doubt a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative and has PD? I would disagree but that would make more sense.
No, because there just isn't a big enough audience to justify making such things. People always point to EvE, but you notice nobody has made another one like EvE, right? There's just not enough meat on that particular bone.
Wurm Online, Perpetuum, Archeage, the repopulation, Salem, and Everquest Next is supposed to be sandbox though we will see when it comes out.
If you are saying MMOs with PD are rare/don't exist then yes you are right so far. If you are saying that sandbox games don't exist outside of EVE the no you are wrong.
There already exist multiple MMOs that don't follow the typical the theme park structure. When most people talk about PD in an MMO they envision it in a sandbox type MMO. Thus upon death there will be no repetitive content when starting over, no being forced into beginning level zones, etc., because those things typically don't exist in a sandbox MMO.
The same mechanics that exist in a themepark exist in a sandbox, there are only so many ways to level so it doesn't really matter if you're killing things in the same dungeon over and over, or just standing out in the middle of nowhere killing things, you're still engaging in the same repetitive content, it's just not scripted.
I think we are maybe losing sight of the original statement. An implication was raised that PD is bad because it makes an MMO more repetitive since you have to redo cutscenes and story/quest hubs. I was saying that that would only be true in theme parks that employ cut scenes and quest hubs. If you are arguing that all combat in MMOs is repetitive then yes I would agree. However that would be true for PD or non PD. Thats not an argument as to why PD is more repetitive which is the implication to which I originally commented.
Are you saying that you doubt that a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative? Because many examples exist EVE Online being the first to come to mind. Or are you saying that you doubt a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative and has PD? I would disagree but that would make more sense.
There already exist multiple MMOs that don't follow the typical the theme park structure. When most people talk about PD in an MMO they envision it in a sandbox type MMO. Thus upon death there will be no repetitive content when starting over, no being forced into beginning level zones, etc., because those things typically don't exist in a sandbox MMO.
I am curious. How is sandbox content not repetitive? I find it is very repetitive - even without PD.
Hmm interesting...I guess it's just one of those different strokes for different folks kind of things.
Since you said you're curious I'll explain my perspective. I can only stomach about 3 kill ten x quests and maybe 2 fetch quests before I feel bored in an MMO. So the themeparks to me are very very repetitive as almost every quest is a variation of those two types. I found Eve less repetitive because you can do whatever you want. Want to be a drug smuggler? A con man? A business owner? Do you have to do kill ten x quests? Nope. You just go and start smuggling, start conning or start up your business. Want to be a trade expert? Want to cultivate planets for resources? Want to explore for ship wrecks or abnormal phenomenon? Want to be a ninja scavenger (the vultures of space)? I wonder how many x I will have to kill to do those things? None! Just start trading, cultivating, exploring and scavenging. That's just the tip of the iceberg. That to me is not repetitive.
So you're essentially saying you just don't like being told what to do? In a themepark, you're told to go kill 10 x or get 2 of something and you do it. In a sandbox game, nobody tells you to do it, but you still go kill 10 x and get 2 of something. You're still left having to level in these games and that means you have to make a significant amount of XP and that almost always means killing something. So you're not upset that you're just running around killing things for XP, you're upset that someone is telling you to do it? You're talking about all the things you can do in a sandbox game, ignoring the fact that you can do the same thing in a themepark, you're just not going to be making a lot of XP doing it in either game.
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The problem is, the people who really put forward permadeath say they need risk in their games to make the rewards worth it. They don't really want risk though, they want the ILLUSION of risk. There's really no risk, especially for people who have nothing better to do than sit in front of a computer playing games all day. Granted, there really is no real reward either, it's just the illusion of reward. If you're going to talk about making good decisions, people aren't going to do anything remotely dangerous in these games because the risks are too high, just like the majority of people don't go bungee jumping off bridges or base jump off buildings because the potential risk is a lot higher than whatever reward they'd get. If you're only going to appeal to e-sports weenies, the game is dead because there aren't enough of them to financially support the game. If not, then most people will quit the game out of boredom because there's nothing exciting to do without risking a catastrophic loss.
Most people don't do those things in real life, they play games to get the sensation without the risks associated. If you want that excitement, go jump off a bridge.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I don't agree with that. Do you consider time and money completely without value? Because someone can have a hell of a lot of time and money wrapped up in their character. Obviously they're not risking "real death" (which would be retarded) but they are risking something they have invested time, money and effort into. Very different from a game where you just respawn when you "die".
No, that's one reason why I'd never play permadeath because my time and my effort are worth more to me than some pointless game mechanic. That said, there are some advocates who pretend like they're losing something important and they ought to be able to force everyone else to lose that important thing, because they're somehow "hardcore". "Hardcore" and "losing pixels" don't really go together IMO.
I've brought that concept up and lots of people who want permadeath are perfectly happy to forego the time and effort, having little or no progression, so they can have their permadeath, which really means they don't want MMOs at all.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
But you're operating under the assumption that the "value" you're getting out of playing a game is attained by accumulating stats and items, and that's what gives your time and effort "worth." I think there are other ways to get value out of a gaming experience., building relationships and working towards goals that are bigger than your character among them. One does not physically have anything more or less with an eternal character than a mortal one. They are just two different game types. Skill/wealth retention does not have essential value. The player chooses to assign value to it.
Well, if the time spent playing the game is fun, is it a loss?
What people are against is not loss of anything ... we are talking about games here. What people are against is PD requires players to replay large parts of the game, if they want to see the next part of content, and people don't like to repeat.
People play team sports, even though they are essentially the same "content" over and over. The variation is how you play it. Same is true of multiplayer games. I don't see why MMOs have to be the exception. Can replay never be enjoyable? Multiplayer should inherently provide variation.
My big issue with perma death is it tends to do the opposite of what people think it does. You take fewer risks, you challenge yourself less, overall you end up with a less enjoyable game for most players.
That is not to say you can't build a game like this and have it work, you just need to understand that it caters to being risk adverse which is a huge turn off for a lot of players.
I am Pro-PD. I am not a "hardcore" gamer. I think the hardcore label is stupid and mostly confuses people because they have different definitions for it. I know some people on the pro-PD side have said things like "PD separates the men from the boys" or other such things. I completely disagree with that. There is nothing "casual" about being against PD and there is nothing hardcore about being PD. most people who like PD understand this.
I am not an e-sport gamer as a poster suggested nor are most other PD fans. I'm pro-PD because I like the idea of permanence. Most other MMOs punish people through time sinks. Corpse runs, XP debt, and even gold sinks like armor repair are really time sinks since it just takes some time grinding mobs to make up that money lost. There's nothing wrong with people who prefer the time sink method. I, however, and others like me, would rather a permanent consequence for our actions like PD. ToA has the perfect system to prevent this getting out of hand by giving each player 100 lives. Plenty of room to gain some experience before that final death. Also it allows mistakes due to lag, etc.
Some posters have tried to portray it as if people who like PD have nothing better to do than play games or don't value their time/money. That's stupid. Whether or not you like PD has nothing to do with whether you have a life outside of videogames. That should be obvious.
Some posters have tried to make it seem as though players who want PD don't want real MMOs because Pd forces the game to put more focus on the world and it's development over time vs. the individual characters development. This is also stupid. MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer online role playing game. If I'm playing a role (even if it's finite) in a game online with a massive amount of players than it is an MMORPG. An MMORPG doesn't HAVE to take place in a stagnant world where characters have no impact and essentially run on leveling treadmills beside each other. Most MMOs are like that but it is not a requirement. There can be an MMO with personal development but with a greater focus on world growth. PD could work in a game like that.
Lastly, someone said that PD causes players to redo content. In a theme park MMO yes. In a sandbox MMO without levels and without level zones no. Personally I wouldn't want to play a themepark MMO with PD for that exact reason but in a well made sandbox designed with PD in mind it can work.
MP games are not the same (sports or video). Every play is different because you are facing humans.
PvE is different. Do you want to watch teh same cut-scenes, click the same quest dialogues, kill the same mob at the same spot with the same spell again, again, and again? Not me.
Of course not, that's why that kind of content doesn't work in a permadeath game. But something less prescriptive could work.
oh, optional PD works. Just look at D3.
But if you have a forced PD game, i doubt the audience will be anything but small.
I'm not talking about optional PD, more just not having a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative. Capitalizing on the multiplayer-ness more for progression so as to make it feel fresher when starting over.
In that case, i doubt you will get anything but a small audience.
In fact, i doubt there will be many devs willing to make such a game.
I don't disagree with you on that. I'm looking at this as a discussion of concepts, not economic viability. Plenty of good ideas are a tough sell... doesn't mean it's not worth delving into them.
Sure, if you goal is to have some fun in discussions, pull out concepts that are not in mass production is not uninteresting.
Whether the ideas are "good", of course, is a matter of perspective.
Are you saying that you doubt that a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative? Because many examples exist EVE Online being the first to come to mind. Or are you saying that you doubt a dev will make a game that doesn't have a traditional pre-scripted story/questing narrative and has PD? I would disagree but that would make more sense.
There already exist multiple MMOs that don't follow the typical the theme park structure. When most people talk about PD in an MMO they envision it in a sandbox type MMO. Thus upon death there will be no repetitive content when starting over, no being forced into beginning level zones, etc., because those things typically don't exist in a sandbox MMO.
No, the "value" I get out of any game is having fun. If accumulating stats and items is fun, then yes, that contributes to it. I find no fun in PvP or raiding, thus I don't do it. I find no fun in losing all of the time I have invested in a game, therefore I don't do it. It is true that everyone is free to assign any value they wish to whatever they do. I do not assign any value to playing a hardcore game and losing my character. That's why I keep saying *I* would never play such a game. Your mileage may vary.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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I am curious. How is sandbox content not repetitive? I find it is very repetitive - even without PD.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No, because there just isn't a big enough audience to justify making such things. People always point to EvE, but you notice nobody has made another one like EvE, right? There's just not enough meat on that particular bone.
The same mechanics that exist in a themepark exist in a sandbox, there are only so many ways to level so it doesn't really matter if you're killing things in the same dungeon over and over, or just standing out in the middle of nowhere killing things, you're still engaging in the same repetitive content, it's just not scripted.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Then how to make it less repetitive? I mentioned multiplayer games, which essentially have "repetitive" content but still draw people back because of the shifting element of player interactions. How would more interplayer interaction in low-level tasks effect replayability? I think content needs to be replayable but not repeatable, which is to say it should never look exactly the same twice. Taking advantage of other players in the game is a good way to add that catalyst of change.
And even Eve is a small game, and it does not have true PD (you can buy insurance).
Hmm interesting...I guess it's just one of those different strokes for different folks kind of things.
Since you said you're curious I'll explain my perspective. I can only stomach about 3 kill ten x quests and maybe 2 fetch quests before I feel bored in an MMO. So the themeparks to me are very very repetitive as almost every quest is a variation of those two types. I found Eve less repetitive because you can do whatever you want. Want to be a drug smuggler? A con man? A business owner? Do you have to do kill ten x quests? Nope. You just go and start smuggling, start conning or start up your business. Want to be a trade expert? Want to cultivate planets for resources? Want to explore for ship wrecks or abnormal phenomenon? Want to be a ninja scavenger (the vultures of space)? I wonder how many x I will have to kill to do those things? None! Just start trading, cultivating, exploring and scavenging. That's just the tip of the iceberg. That to me is not repetitive.
Wurm Online, Perpetuum, Archeage, the repopulation, Salem, and Everquest Next is supposed to be sandbox though we will see when it comes out.
If you are saying MMOs with PD are rare/don't exist then yes you are right so far. If you are saying that sandbox games don't exist outside of EVE the no you are wrong.
I think we are maybe losing sight of the original statement. An implication was raised that PD is bad because it makes an MMO more repetitive since you have to redo cutscenes and story/quest hubs. I was saying that that would only be true in theme parks that employ cut scenes and quest hubs. If you are arguing that all combat in MMOs is repetitive then yes I would agree. However that would be true for PD or non PD. Thats not an argument as to why PD is more repetitive which is the implication to which I originally commented.
So you're essentially saying you just don't like being told what to do? In a themepark, you're told to go kill 10 x or get 2 of something and you do it. In a sandbox game, nobody tells you to do it, but you still go kill 10 x and get 2 of something. You're still left having to level in these games and that means you have to make a significant amount of XP and that almost always means killing something. So you're not upset that you're just running around killing things for XP, you're upset that someone is telling you to do it? You're talking about all the things you can do in a sandbox game, ignoring the fact that you can do the same thing in a themepark, you're just not going to be making a lot of XP doing it in either game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
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