There's a few other mmorpgs doing interesting stuff in different directions eg DayZ, Rust, Life Is feudal all smaller than mmo- to improve the gameplay more like graphical MUDs?
If the game uses a subscription model I agree. If it has a F2P model I disagree. I'd rather have players pay for visuals than for power-up items.
. No limits on crafting skills
I disgree. Crafting skills only have value if they are limited to a small amount of players. If everyone can craft everything then the items are at most only as valuable as the raw ingredients (see GW2). Crafting becomes a worthless venture. If it were up to me there would be many different crafting skills and you would only be able to choose one or two. It should be impossible to craft a usable item on your own. Add in local markets and high traveling time between markets and you have a world where crafting matters. Sand box or not, this should be the goal.
. Why the need for multiple characters, one character can do all Roles with a Role Changing system like Dark-Fall.
As long as you cannot insta change your role I agree. Switching from one end of the scale to the other (melee fighter to ranged healer) should take a lot of effort to do but be doable.
. Take path of exile for example having spell reflect which can instant kill a person is the reason I don't play because I can't play full crit build or I kill myself limiting the path I can take to enjoy my game. It does say I can build any way I want to but really can't do so if I can 1 hit myself and playing hard-core which kills
I'd rather have a game with hundreds of skills and the possibility to f*** up your build than a game with only 10 skills where every combination works. Development studios simply do not have the money to ensure that all combinations work. Especially in Sandboxes the point is to not be hand helt by the game. You use a poor build? You die. You jump down a cliff? You die. You waltz into a horde of monsters? You die. You get poisened and have no antidote? You die. Remove all that and the game is boring. Call it risk vs reward if you will.
And to be honest, if you are playing HARDCORE! than I expect you to understand what you are doing. If you do not take the time to plan your build and find a strategy for all situations, you are simply not hardcore and shouldn't be bitching about it.
...
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Can anyone actually define a sandbox at this point?
Seems to most users on this site that a Sandbox is a game that makes you invulnerable, all powerful and allows you to do anything you want and create anything you want. I am not even sure how you encapsulate that into a game, when people want to be dual chainsaw laser sword wielding, sniper, ninja, pirate, cyborg, healer, dps master, tank and time traveller who is also an architect, butcher, armorsmith, weaponsmith, herbalist, medic, tailor, painter and pizza delivery guy.
I don't think anyone can agree on what a sandbox is. However we all have our opinions. That in itself maybe part of the reason there are very "sandbox" MMOs that are successful. Devs probably don't want to take a chance on something that people can't even seem to agree on. I think EVE is probably the only one. In my opinion most other supposedly sandbox games are just themeparks without quests and tweaked PVP rule sets.
There are a few reasons on probably why there are not many successful sandbox-ish games on the market. I think a good analogy to one of the reasons is like someone selling empty diaries and telling people that those are actually books filled with stories that are to be written by the readers. Then someone else actually selling stories that are already written in the books. What a novel idea! (pun intended). Which of those took more effort to create and which will be more financially successful?
Sure there can be more to sandbox-ish games than just writing your own story but if you look at a list of reasons (if there is one) on why those games aren't overall a booming success, then I have a feeling that a lack of written content is one of them.
It takes more money and time to make a decent sandbox mmo than it does to make a storyline driven mmo. I really think that it's developers being cheap and lazy. What they don't realize is that, if they don't change their tune, people are going to abandon MMO's altogether. It's already begun.
Eve isn't an example and that's where your pseudo-logic fails.
Why not though? It's the only MMO I know of that isn't losing subs (something even WoW can't say). Whether or not you like the game it does make a lot of profit for CCP.
Eve isn't an example and that's where your pseudo-logic fails.
Why not though? It's the only MMO I know of that isn't losing subs (something even WoW can't say). Whether or not you like the game it does make a lot of profit for CCP.
Have you noticed how rude grimgryphon is being? I don't think he's concerned with whether it's an example or not. He doesn't agree and will be rude to anyone that doesn't agree with him. Eve is a great example of a successful sandbox. The thing is, I don't play it. I just couldn't get in to the game, and I find the controls extremely unwieldy.
Right now, my only hopes for a sandbox is Citadel of Sorcery but its been in development a very long time so its up in the air. I have a vague hope for World of Darkness but we haven't heard anything about it for so long that I'm starting to wonder if it's vaporware too.
Eve isn't an example and that's where your pseudo-logic fails.
Why not though? It's the only MMO I know of that isn't losing subs (something even WoW can't say). Whether or not you like the game it does make a lot of profit for CCP.
Have you noticed how rude grimgryphon is being? I don't think he's concerned with whether it's an example or not. He doesn't agree and will be rude to anyone that doesn't agree with him. Eve is a great example of a successful sandbox. The thing is, I don't play it. I just couldn't get in to the game, and I find the controls extremely unwieldy.
Right now, my only hopes for a sandbox is Citadel of Sorcery but its been in development a very long time so its up in the air. I have a vague hope for World of Darkness but we haven't heard anything about it for so long that I'm starting to wonder if it's vaporware too.
+1
I guess I'm lucky. I want sandbox features but I'm not looking for a hard core sandbox. It seems like most games in development are shifting towards what I want.
Maybe game developers want their games to be successful.
Because 80% of people that plays MMO doesn't have the intelligence make their own decisions on what to do. The idea of "Make your own story" could never be successful, this because of people that turn to MMO is not willing to put an effort into the game instead they look to the game that give an easy way out.
We people are like sheeps, we need a sheep herder to guide us. Hence, that is why there's so many themepark mmos out, and whats so funny about it is that, these 'sheeps' complains about the end game, due to the fact that it is lack of freedom.
Repetitive raids.. That's the only thing people look for an endgame content. I do not understand how one can stand doing the same raids every time, the insanity is overwhelming.
Don't forget Ultima Online, it was very successful during its era, and its still going on right now.
I would say Eve is an excellent example of successfull sandbox mmo. Whether it remains successfull with other good sandbox titles is unknown. But it is successfull and a sandbox. I'm postive that the upcoming sandboxes were developed at least partially because of Eve's success.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I really do not understand why we must be under the impression that now sandbox games have shifted into being everything to anyone. Definitly not the type of sandbox I want.
I do like the freedom a sandbox game offers, the chance to become this master crafter who might suck at fighting but has master warrior friends who can help him/her out and the other way around.
A sandbox game should be about community. And the way explains his wishes seems like a very boring type of sandbox game to be everything you want. I mean why even have a active community if your one toon can do everything and anything....
They are a harder sell. Most publishers and shareholders don't like hard sells. I prefer sandboxes, but i also realize that a large portion of the mmorpg market today has migrated from other genres that are more straightforward and story-driven for instant gratification. As such, selling them on a mmo is going to be easier if it's more familiar to the gaming experience they are used to. First impressions sell games. Sandboxes are geared toward enthusiasts who are already familiar with a wide range of mmo concepts and are willing to support a game that takes more player input to create unique content. That is a hard sell when you are targeting big numbers. Just doesn't fit the traditional, proven approach to game development, especially when these games cost so much to develop and publish.
Maybe game developers want their games to be successful.
Because 80% of people that plays MMO doesn't have the intelligence make their own decisions on what to do. The idea of "Make your own story" could never be successful, this because of people that turn to MMO is not willing to put an effort into the game instead they look to the game that give an easy way out.
We people are like sheeps, we need a sheep herder to guide us. Hence, that is why there's so many themepark mmos out, and whats so funny about it is that, these 'sheeps' complains about the end game, due to the fact that it is lack of freedom.
Repetitive raids.. That's the only thing people look for an endgame content. I do not understand how one can stand doing the same raids every time, the insanity is overwhelming.
Don't forget Ultima Online, it was very successful during its era, and its still going on right now.
It has nothing to do with intelligence. That's like saying only stupid people read books, if you're smart you write your own.
Not everyone wants to write their own story every time they log into a game. Many/most people play themepark games to be told or take part in one that's already created.
I really do not understand why we must be under the impression that now sandbox games have shifted into being everything to anyone. Definitly not the type of sandbox I want.
I do like the freedom a sandbox game offers, the chance to become this master crafter who might suck at fighting but has master warrior friends who can help him/her out and the other way around.
A sandbox game should be about community. And the way explains his wishes seems like a very boring type of sandbox game to be everything you want. I mean why even have a active community if your one toon can do everything and anything....
Why not? Everything that's been released since LOTRO has been a deep theme park game. It's time the pendulum swings back the other way. I really blame LOTRO with allowing the start of dumbing down the genre. Though the game is still much closer to a sandbox than anything else released since.
IMO, the best way to make a sandbox game and be moderately successful in today's market is to build a themepark MMO, but leave an entire continent completely barren and build the sandbox there.
They should build the tools to allow players to build anything there, but also destroy anything there, and allow for open PvP. Then just let loose the gates and see what happens. They can still focus on building content for the themepark players to retain the 'casual' subs but the flexibility of the sandbox continent might just get the more hardcore players to stick around. It'd also be a good way to get themepark players to 'check it out', especially if they're attached to guilds that decide to partake in the sandbox.
I think WoW would be the perfect game for something like this to occur. The player base is more or less stable and Blizzard can pretty much do whatever they want and still make money. The new expansion is even adding some 'town building' mechanics (although it's phased). If they really wanted to, they could go for it, but it doesn't look like it's on their roadmap.
Sadly, Sandbox games are hard to keep up, there is one point where the balance is just to broken and a sever reset tuns into a dire need.
Sadly, the perfect sandbox MMO is a thing that just exists in our minds, even infinite world games like Minecraft can't keep up a sever for long enough, since there is one point in which everything just breaks
Sadly, Sandbox games are hard to keep up, there is one point where the balance is just to broken and a sever reset tuns into a dire need.
Sadly, the perfect sandbox MMO is a thing that just exists in our minds, even infinite world games like Minecraft can't keep up a sever for long enough, since there is one point in which everything just breaks
This post is clueless....
Ultima Online was never broken or out of balance
Neither was SWG pre NGE nor is Eve having issues either...
Even Wurm Online is awesome though it needs more advertising and people to know it exists!
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem
I really do not understand why we must be under the impression that now sandbox games have shifted into being everything to anyone. Definitly not the type of sandbox I want.
I do like the freedom a sandbox game offers, the chance to become this master crafter who might suck at fighting but has master warrior friends who can help him/her out and the other way around.
A sandbox game should be about community. And the way explains his wishes seems like a very boring type of sandbox game to be everything you want. I mean why even have a active community if your one toon can do everything and anything....
Why not? Everything that's been released since LOTRO has been a deep theme park game. It's time the pendulum swings back the other way. I really blame LOTRO with allowing the start of dumbing down the genre. Though the game is still much closer to a sandbox than anything else released since.
Really why not? have you actually read OP? to me what OP explains is far from sandbox that is why. Because OP wants anybody to be everything.
Maybe game developers want their games to be successful.
Because 80% of people that plays MMO doesn't have the intelligence make their own decisions on what to do. The idea of "Make your own story" could never be successful, this because of people that turn to MMO is not willing to put an effort into the game instead they look to the game that give an easy way out.
Hey, there's a related thread about invite only MMOs. You should sync up with them.
You could fashion yourselves nice white robes and hats and have parties. I hear it went swimmingly for the South in the 1950's.
Maybe game developers want their games to be successful.
Because 80% of people that plays MMO doesn't have the intelligence make their own decisions on what to do. The idea of "Make your own story" could never be successful, this because of people that turn to MMO is not willing to put an effort into the game instead they look to the game that give an easy way out.
Hey, there's a related thread about invite only MMOs. You should sync up with them.
You could fashion yourselves nice white robes and hats and have parties. I hear it went swimmingly for the South in the 1050's.
Comments
1. Pre-MMO = innovative gameplay
2. Themepark MMO = innovative profits & graphics tech
3. Minecraft-Style MMO = UGC
Possibly 3. will be profitable & fun?
There's a few other mmorpgs doing interesting stuff in different directions eg DayZ, Rust, Life Is feudal all smaller than mmo- to improve the gameplay more like graphical MUDs?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I don't think anyone can agree on what a sandbox is. However we all have our opinions. That in itself maybe part of the reason there are very "sandbox" MMOs that are successful. Devs probably don't want to take a chance on something that people can't even seem to agree on. I think EVE is probably the only one. In my opinion most other supposedly sandbox games are just themeparks without quests and tweaked PVP rule sets.
There are a few reasons on probably why there are not many successful sandbox-ish games on the market. I think a good analogy to one of the reasons is like someone selling empty diaries and telling people that those are actually books filled with stories that are to be written by the readers. Then someone else actually selling stories that are already written in the books. What a novel idea! (pun intended). Which of those took more effort to create and which will be more financially successful?
Sure there can be more to sandbox-ish games than just writing your own story but if you look at a list of reasons (if there is one) on why those games aren't overall a booming success, then I have a feeling that a lack of written content is one of them.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
EvE
*steps on crickets*
*crickets reanimate and bite the head off of General-Zod for being naive and falling for CCP's smoke and mirrors*
Internet troll logic is so funny:
"Well gimme an example...!"
"OK...here."
"No, I've decided that one doesn't count. Gimme another example!"
LOL. Brilliant.
Eve isn't an example and that's where your pseudo-logic fails.
Why not though? It's the only MMO I know of that isn't losing subs (something even WoW can't say). Whether or not you like the game it does make a lot of profit for CCP.
Have you noticed how rude grimgryphon is being? I don't think he's concerned with whether it's an example or not. He doesn't agree and will be rude to anyone that doesn't agree with him. Eve is a great example of a successful sandbox. The thing is, I don't play it. I just couldn't get in to the game, and I find the controls extremely unwieldy.
Right now, my only hopes for a sandbox is Citadel of Sorcery but its been in development a very long time so its up in the air. I have a vague hope for World of Darkness but we haven't heard anything about it for so long that I'm starting to wonder if it's vaporware too.
+1
I guess I'm lucky. I want sandbox features but I'm not looking for a hard core sandbox. It seems like most games in development are shifting towards what I want.
Because 80% of people that plays MMO doesn't have the intelligence make their own decisions on what to do. The idea of "Make your own story" could never be successful, this because of people that turn to MMO is not willing to put an effort into the game instead they look to the game that give an easy way out.
We people are like sheeps, we need a sheep herder to guide us. Hence, that is why there's so many themepark mmos out, and whats so funny about it is that, these 'sheeps' complains about the end game, due to the fact that it is lack of freedom.
Repetitive raids.. That's the only thing people look for an endgame content. I do not understand how one can stand doing the same raids every time, the insanity is overwhelming.
Don't forget Ultima Online, it was very successful during its era, and its still going on right now.
Why are you OP asking for "more sandbox games"??
I really do not understand why we must be under the impression that now sandbox games have shifted into being everything to anyone. Definitly not the type of sandbox I want.
I do like the freedom a sandbox game offers, the chance to become this master crafter who might suck at fighting but has master warrior friends who can help him/her out and the other way around.
A sandbox game should be about community. And the way explains his wishes seems like a very boring type of sandbox game to be everything you want. I mean why even have a active community if your one toon can do everything and anything....
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
It has nothing to do with intelligence. That's like saying only stupid people read books, if you're smart you write your own.
Not everyone wants to write their own story every time they log into a game. Many/most people play themepark games to be told or take part in one that's already created.
Why not? Everything that's been released since LOTRO has been a deep theme park game. It's time the pendulum swings back the other way. I really blame LOTRO with allowing the start of dumbing down the genre. Though the game is still much closer to a sandbox than anything else released since.
IMO, the best way to make a sandbox game and be moderately successful in today's market is to build a themepark MMO, but leave an entire continent completely barren and build the sandbox there.
They should build the tools to allow players to build anything there, but also destroy anything there, and allow for open PvP. Then just let loose the gates and see what happens. They can still focus on building content for the themepark players to retain the 'casual' subs but the flexibility of the sandbox continent might just get the more hardcore players to stick around. It'd also be a good way to get themepark players to 'check it out', especially if they're attached to guilds that decide to partake in the sandbox.
I think WoW would be the perfect game for something like this to occur. The player base is more or less stable and Blizzard can pretty much do whatever they want and still make money. The new expansion is even adding some 'town building' mechanics (although it's phased). If they really wanted to, they could go for it, but it doesn't look like it's on their roadmap.
Sadly, Sandbox games are hard to keep up, there is one point where the balance is just to broken and a sever reset tuns into a dire need.
Sadly, the perfect sandbox MMO is a thing that just exists in our minds, even infinite world games like Minecraft can't keep up a sever for long enough, since there is one point in which everything just breaks
This post is clueless....
Ultima Online was never broken or out of balance
Neither was SWG pre NGE nor is Eve having issues either...
Even Wurm Online is awesome though it needs more advertising and people to know it exists!
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem
Really why not? have you actually read OP? to me what OP explains is far from sandbox that is why. Because OP wants anybody to be everything.
Hey, there's a related thread about invite only MMOs. You should sync up with them.
You could fashion yourselves nice white robes and hats and have parties. I hear it went swimmingly for the South in the 1950's.
/facepalm