That sort of comes down to what people where talking about earlier in the thread though doesn't it ? The huge budget games are going to go for the big money. You invest 100 million + you're not going to aim for 50k sub range ? But the same people ask for things like sandbox and open world pvp but refuse to give games like worm or other indi games a try because they aren't AAA titles with AAA features...even though you didn't have any of those things in EQ or SWG and they were still somehow great.
That's not a failure in the industry to appeal to the right people, that's a failure of the player to be realistic about how much his interest group can really support.
Anyone that expects them to build it first and then you'll come play it...doesn't know how a business works.
Personally, i blame sandboxers and OWpvp'ers for their own pile of issues. Sandboxers want giant open worlds where they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, but get pissed off and leave at random. They remind me of a person who commissions a painting, and when its finished and delivered, they freak out about 1 color the artist used wherein they refuse to pay the artist for the work and proceed to badmouth said artist.
OWpvp'ers kill off their own games. They usually aren't looking for extravagant worlds with beautiful scenery or anything majestic, but they ALWAYS perma-hunt newbs until nobody wants to play the game anymore. They then take to their respective forums, trying to figure out why the game is empty and how things could have gotten to that point.
As for the AAA titles...I Feel ya. I would most likely be a piss poor game company CEO, because my idea for a game would be that "If you design a game that took 100m to create and did it correctly, it wouldn't be an issue to recoup the money spent"...But what do i know, I'm just a hopeless gamer. =/
Originally posted by Icewhite
I wonder how many gamers are beginning to experience health issues from years of sedentary and bad chair posture and carpal tunnel.
*holds up hand*
So now you have me interested, I had you pegged as a very different type of gamer. What are you looking for in mmos ? What is it about the new ones that make them so bad ?
So now you have me interested, I had you pegged as a very different type of gamer. What are you looking for in mmos ? What is it about the new ones that make them so bad ?
I Honestly don't know what im looking for anymore.
(stuff i liked but have long since disappeared or have gone really down hill)
bounty hounds/RF/RYL/dark prophecy/Martial heroes/Knight online/BSGO/DCUO/RO/SuN/LoL/HoN/RoTT/WoW/Rift/CoS...these are the only ones i can remember right now, my memory is pretty well shot.
My only real interest in a game right now, i suppose, is to disregard leveling and content entirely and just craft and make money. I've ground levels and pvp'd for years that the concepts themselves are completely boring to me now. I dunno...maybe if i could be a shop keeper or a merchant or something instead of a generic grind/dungeon/instance/pvp player...
My last 2 hopes for games, are World of Darkness and Shadowrun Online. Both are entirely from a nostalgic point of view, but they're the only candles i still have lit for gaming. When they eventually arrive and i realize that these games will never be what i would hope they would be, i can snuff out the candles and move on from gaming as a whole.
As for the AAA titles...I Feel ya. I would most likely be a piss poor game company CEO, because my idea for a game would be that "If you design a game that took 100m to create and did it correctly, it wouldn't be an issue to recoup the money spent"...But what do i know, I'm just a hopeless gamer. =/
But doesn't "and did it correctly" also include creating a business model that fits how the players want to pay for their entertainment?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have read your original post and watched your video as well. Even though I'm one of those suckers who paid 100 bucks to get into Alpha, and therefore am somewhat responsible for encouraging the industry to keep on doing this (I'm sorry!), I do agree with what you said. I always liked my games to be P2P, and I have been a strong opponent of the F2P model. The arguments I have are somewhat comparable to the arguments you use, although I personally couldn't give a rat's tail about what I look in game.
Developers should care enough about their games to provide a level playing field for all their players, and I acknowledge "looks" is one aspect of MMORPG's for players to stand out. A game to me stops being a game when players are no longer equal. (Ever tried going to a casino with an extra deck of cards up your sleeve? In F2P we have come to accept that you can buy extra decks).
In defence of Landmark, I say the perks for paying are rather small, after closed beta there will be a full wipe of the data, after which open beta will probably allow you to play for free. The perks players currently get do not include castles, though I hope my money will be seen as an encouragement for SoE to make more games like landmark in the future (or other companies pick up on it), but I also hope they change their business model.
Hehe, no need to be sorry. I guess if I had much money, I would have bought it too, though mostly out of sheer boredom and desperation. Still, I feel it IS a scam.
(I) Why is a game said to be F2P even bought? If the game was to be sold anyway, ok, but only to be there earlier?
(II) Why is the price so steep? Do ingame gimmicks justify 90 bucks?
(III) Why are there THREE offers? Would not have been more fair to have ONE offer for all, so all have the same chances and then go for a moderate price more people can afford? Like 30 Dollar? I think 30 Dollars would be MORE than enough for a mere alpha access. Even that would feel wrong to me, but allowing some elite who can/will afford 90 dollar to be the elite top, it just feels wrong to me.
There is an entire plethora of evil psychology behind the change in MMOs. And it saddens me so few people want to realize this.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Crafting really is a lost art in mmos and something that's really been ruined by games like wow. As much as I like wow it really did make crafting ( real crafting ) pointless, and it stuck. Eve sadly ( I don't like it :P ) is probably your only option for a deep crafting system, but even that isn't really a lone crafter in his shop. It's corporations and production.
I guess when it comes down to it crafting and what it brings to the game doesn't sell as many tickets as one click potion dispensers or fast food armor smithing so developers don't put it in there.
You should try a tail in the desert. I know nothing about it other than it's a crafting mmo.
Stop being an artist. Seriously. I an a entry level developer. There are too many artists and many artists have over-inflate how much they are actually worth. And seriously, the work is degrading, you're gonna spend hours making a damn tree that nobody gives two shits about in a video game.
And yet its the art that sells the product. Get the irony ?
Anyway I have news for all the pompous programmers that has their importance overinflated. Your time is at its end. The technology now allows anyone to program intuitively . And pretty soon you will be obsolete (or return to making accounting software).
Find another way to make money.
Maybe he doesnt want to make money other way , ever thought of that ?
As for the AAA titles...I Feel ya. I would most likely be a piss poor game company CEO, because my idea for a game would be that "If you design a game that took 100m to create and did it correctly, it wouldn't be an issue to recoup the money spent"...But what do i know, I'm just a hopeless gamer. =/
But doesn't "and did it correctly" also include creating a business model that fits how the players want to pay for their entertainment?
In my wackjob mind, no. Somewhere in my noodle, the concept is like....Create game that costs 100m, ?????, People beg you to take their money because of how good it is....Or maybe it does, im not entirely certain.
Sort of like if a company did a humblebundle concept for a game. "Hey, we spent a bunch to create it, but we figure that if you enjoy the game, you'll pay what you'd like for it. Whether it be $17, 1.8m or even 33c, we sincerely appreciate it. If you didn't like it, or figured it wasn't worth a dime...well, thats okay too. We just hope you had fun"....or even "whatever you choose to pay, we will give half of it to charity". yea, guilt trip central, but it makes the money back without making you look like a cold hearted, money grubbing jerk.
Hehe, no need to be sorry. I guess if I had much money, I would have bought it too, though mostly out of sheer boredom and desperation. Still, I feel it IS a scam.
(I) Why is a game said to be F2P even bought? If the game was to be sold anyway, ok, but only to be there earlier?
(II) Why is the price so steep? Do ingame gimmicks justify 90 bucks?
(III) Why are there THREE offers? Would not have been more fair to have ONE offer for all, so all have the same chances and then go for a moderate price more people can afford? Like 30 Dollar? I think 30 Dollars would be MORE than enough for a mere alpha access. Even that would feel wrong to me, but allowing some elite who can/will afford 90 dollar to be the elite top, it just feels wrong to me.
There is an entire plethora of evil psychology behind the change in MMOs. And it saddens me so few people want to realize this.
Are you really seeing scam and evil psychology? I ask because the answer to all three of your questions is very simple: It's what people are willing to pay for it. If people don't feel it's worth 20-90 dollars, they won't pay it. If they do feel it's worth it, they'll pay for it.
It's really not that complicated.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hehe, no need to be sorry. I guess if I had much money, I would have bought it too, though mostly out of sheer boredom and desperation. Still, I feel it IS a scam.
(I) Why is a game said to be F2P even bought? If the game was to be sold anyway, ok, but only to be there earlier?
(II) Why is the price so steep? Do ingame gimmicks justify 90 bucks?
(III) Why are there THREE offers? Would not have been more fair to have ONE offer for all, so all have the same chances and then go for a moderate price more people can afford? Like 30 Dollar? I think 30 Dollars would be MORE than enough for a mere alpha access. Even that would feel wrong to me, but allowing some elite who can/will afford 90 dollar to be the elite top, it just feels wrong to me.
There is an entire plethora of evil psychology behind the change in MMOs. And it saddens me so few people want to realize this.
Maybe try looking at it from their side. You've given us a good perspective of how you feel but try it from the companies side trying to make money.
You say it's evil psychology, but it's in every store you go into in life. You know why milk is always at the back of the grocery store ? It's the number one item people go to the store just to get..so make people walk past everything and they might remember they need something else. Every item on the shelf is there based on it's size color and shape of packaging and how much the supplier is willing to spend to get the prime locations.
Does knowing this make you think the store is evil ?
So to your question why 3 instead of one ? for the same reason subs are dieing. Someone willing to pay $100 dollars is only going to spend 30. Someone willing to spend $20 may not buy at all.
If you say so what to that...how do you get investors to give you money when they know these types of monitizing tricks and they see you aren't trying to employ them ? It's sort of a vicious circle. the more money you get involved in games the more studies get done on how to make people spend more. The more studies they do the better they get at offering these types of things. Once they become a proven winner investors expect them in the games they're going to put money into.
Really the best thing you can do is educate yourself on how and why they do it and don't fall for it. Other people are going to obviously but with your refusal to, means there is an untapped source of money out there and they will keep looking at ways to get it from you. Maybe you can live with the next system they come up with to get money from people like you.
AAA mmos have become just like those facebook/mobile games. They are all the same with one single goal, make tons of money. They don't care to be inovative or to shift paradigms. Thats why i love some older games, i do enjoy new ones as well, but i don't love any of them. I dont care much as i cared for the older ones. The only game that comes close is LOTRO and thats because i'm a tolkien fan and the game do translate quite well the middle earth i know. It has a certain feel to it. But the game is not that interesting.
If you look at the newer releases, those released already in the "F2P Era", the slot machine concept and all those stuff Notimeforbs wrote about becomes even more apparent. Its kinda sad, a interesting genre so stagnant.
I dont see the cash shop as a problem, as others said its a matter of choice. The problem is, we are running out of choices beyond that, even indies are having trouble pulling off interesting stuff.
Thats why the genre is quite stale and boring. But i have one hope... the MMO concept is getting strong into SP games. Lots of new console releases are going for organic multiplayer experience. Like Dark Souls did. So, new ideas will clash with the MMO concept, maybe something interesting might come up and dethrone the stale format.
Things will change and companies will try to inovate whe the genre starts dying out or another "WoW" rises. The problem is, they will copy the new WoW as they did with the current one.
I'm disabled veteran and my refrigerator doesn't get empty at the end of the month. Maybe you should quit playing video games and get your head straight?
As for the AAA titles...I Feel ya. I would most likely be a piss poor game company CEO, because my idea for a game would be that "If you design a game that took 100m to create and did it correctly, it wouldn't be an issue to recoup the money spent"...But what do i know, I'm just a hopeless gamer. =/
But doesn't "and did it correctly" also include creating a business model that fits how the players want to pay for their entertainment?
In my wackjob mind, no. Somewhere in my noodle, the concept is like....Create game that costs 100m, ?????, People beg you to take their money because of how good it is....Or maybe it does, im not entirely certain.
Sort of like if a company did a humblebundle concept for a game. "Hey, we spent a bunch to create it, but we figure that if you enjoy the game, you'll pay what you'd like for it. Whether it be $17, 1.8m or even 33c, we sincerely appreciate it. If you didn't like it, or figured it wasn't worth a dime...well, thats okay too. We just hope you had fun"....or even "whatever you choose to pay, we will give half of it to charity". yea, guilt trip central, but it makes the money back without making you look like a cold hearted, money grubbing jerk.
Isn't the big difference there that you have to pay something for a Humble Bundle, but you don't have to pay anything to play EQ Landmark when it releases.
And if we want to do Elikal's whole moving target thing and talk about F2P in general, isn't the difference that you have to pay before you try the Humble Bundle, and F2P let's you try before you ever spend a single dime?
I mean, your example is a game that costs 100m that they are going to let people play for FREE, and only spend money if and when they find value in it. When compared to asking for a 40-60 dollar box fee before a person can even try the game, I find it hard to label the former the cold hearted, money grubbing jerk.
"Create game that costs 100m, ?????, People beg you to take their money because of how good it is..."
That's the situation we're talking about here, so I'm having trouble following whether you are saying that's a good thing or a bad thing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
(III) Why are there THREE offers? Would not have been more fair to have ONE offer for all, so all have the same chances and then go for a moderate price more people can afford? Like 30 Dollar? I think 30 Dollars would be MORE than enough for a mere alpha access. Even that would feel wrong to me, but allowing some elite who can/will afford 90 dollar to be the elite top, it just feels wrong to me.
Why are there several classes on trains and airplanes? Why are there several menus in restaurants?
And you don't need to fork out $90 for early alpha access, just $60.
Originally posted by trancefate I'm disabled veteran and my refrigerator doesn't get empty at the end of the month. Maybe you should quit playing video games and get your head straight?
Pretty much this, too, of course.
"Money is no longer a driving factor in our society."
- Captain Picard
I thought I should quote this to a guy having Picard both in name and icon.
That also is my vision for the future. A human society where people work to improve themselves and MONEY is no longer existent, and thus no "classes" either. Sidenote: the vision of Star Trek in that iteration is the same like the famous "The Capital" by Karl Marx. As long as people define their lives via money we are walking an ill path.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I don't know why so many people jump on the OPs personal financial situation. That is not the point he wants to make and it doesn't really matter.
I am not rich but I got enough income to spare so I could by all those stuff the MMO companies offer as founder packs, extra mounts, grind reducers or what not else they offer in their cash shops. The point is there is no fun at all in buying ingame rewards from a cash shop or founder packages etc. It means nothing to me and therefore I rarely spent any money on those.
Now you can say, ok, you don't like, don't do it (which I do). But I hoped MMO would evolve differently. They didn't.
@OP MMO pioneer times are over unfortunately and MMOs evolved into something some of us never wanted them to be. Just be happy that we had at least the pleasure to experience those times. Pick from current MMOs the parts you like and ignore all the rest or even find another hobby. I know I am spending less and less time (and money) in MMOs. And the reason is not lack of money or time.
(III) Why are there THREE offers? Would not have been more fair to have ONE offer for all, so all have the same chances and then go for a moderate price more people can afford? Like 30 Dollar? I think 30 Dollars would be MORE than enough for a mere alpha access. Even that would feel wrong to me, but allowing some elite who can/will afford 90 dollar to be the elite top, it just feels wrong to me.
Why are there several classes on trains and airplanes? Why are there several menus in restaurants?
And you don't need to fork out $90 for early alpha access, just $60.
Originally posted by trancefate I'm disabled veteran and my refrigerator doesn't get empty at the end of the month. Maybe you should quit playing video games and get your head straight?
Pretty much this, too, of course.
"Money is no longer a driving factor in our society."
- Captain Picard
I thought I should quote this to a guy having Picard both in name and icon.
That also is my vision for the future. A human society where people work to improve themselves and MONEY is no longer existent, and thus no "classes" either. Sidenote: the vision of Star Trek in that iteration is the same like the famous "The Capital" by Karl Marx. As long as people define their lives via money we are walking an ill path.
Well, you have 27 years before TV goes away, and then of course there's that whole nuclear nightmare which we somehow managed to scrape our way out of and steamroll toward cheap fusion power. I think that brings us to about the 22nd or 23rd century but we're looking at a world where we're looking at the elimination of hunger... want... the need for possessions... in our utopian society where humans no longer wage war with each other.
It's a neat idea but there's a certain irony here. That's what you want. That's the world you seek, yet you are, at this very moment, annoyed - annoyed to the point of spending an entire night making countless posts and even a video - that someone else can play a video game before you can because they have disposable income that you do not have. A video game that isn't even done yet and will be free for you to play as soon as it is released.
Your current concerns seem to conflict with your ideology so I ask: Is it that you feel everyone should have equal access to everything or that you feel you should have equal access to what others have?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ok, if you are not ready for a vent... pls leave now.
Ok.
You see, I love gaming. Seriously. But recently, I really question ... WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING WITH MY MORTAL LIMITED LIFETIME?
And you see, NO, it's not per se, that I suddenly see gaming as a waste of time or money. But in recent years... the relation of what I am supposed to do and pay has simply gone worse and worse. I can cite numerous examples. But instead of boring you, I give you two which IMVHO stand for many.
First: EQN Landmarks money grab. Yes, I am an unemployed artist, who lives by very, very few Euros. But you see. In the past, in days of Everquest II and Star Wars Galaxies: we all paid ONE price: ONE box and ONE equal fee. End of story. And then inside the game what I had achieved was MY INGAME WORK. End of the story.#
But now we have money aristocracy. Suddenly the poor in RL are poor in the games too! And the rich are having titles, castles and endless boni. Just as in RL. And tbh... I hate that. I use the word hate very consciouly on relation to this. That suddenly people have titles and castles and expensive robes in MMOs just because they are rich in RL pisses me off to no end. It's bad enough to be poor in RL. I am that guy whose refrigerator is empty the last week before the new months, so for me investing 15 dollar a month is MUCH, and IT IS THE LIMIT. But the consolation for me was: hey I can play a cool game, and for the imgame effort there I can be someone. And now, the same rich people who have it all in RL have it too in games. I am just so damn fed up and tired with games becoming like that! Take the recent EQ-Landmarks. SUPPOSED to be free!
Maybe I am just a damn foreigner who doesn't know the meaning of "free to play", but almost 100 Dollars does NOT sound very free to me! And for a blasted ALPHA TEST! And again people who have the bucks get the super clothing, the Nobility title, the exclusive land and whatnot. It was bad enough Cryptic with Neverwinter became such a money grab, but SOE with Everquest Next too? Sorry, but I am just royally angered about that.
Second: Time stealing. You see, unlike most MMO gamers I am a mortal. Meaning: I have ONE life and my lifetime is NOT endless. So at least for me, time is precious. I want to spent it with fun, entertaining and cool things. Like games. But at some point in gaming history, companies came to the conclusion there are easier ways make content and keep people playing OTHER than interesting content. So they invented grind.
Grind is the dangling carrot you can never achieve. Like the achievements in GW2 I currently tried. Take Season 1 WvW achievement. Kill 225 Sentries. Kill 200 enemy Yaks. Conquer 50 Merc Camps. Yeah 50 sounds easy. But try it. I either came too late, the Camps were already swapped or 10 enemies await you and wipe you. I tried to get Merc Camps, and I did that 3 days, each day ~ 8 hours and I got 15. From 24 hours of my limited, mortal lifetime.
That's where I logged out and thought: what the fuck am I doing here?
I am sitting in a virtual castle, gazing at a map, waiting for little swords to turn grey. Wow. What excitement. What a meaningful way to spent my ONE MORTAL LIMITED LIFETIME GOD GAVE ME.
You know I think we are just getting MADE addicted by companies. No, I am dead serioues. They always add faction points, and tokens and achievements... always a higher carrot, always a new shiny, and you tread and tread and tread in your tiny hamster wheel, ALWAYS being deceived by the hope to get something. Only you don't. We are being pre-programmed and brainwashed to ENJOY the grind, to enjoy the addicition. Yes, it is conscious, planned, purposefully done addiction these companies do with all their faction points and tokens and achievement lists! And I am so angry they do this, and even more angry I fell into that trap. That I hoped for ONCE by working hard I could BE someone.
In a fucking, stupid virtual game. Which was supposed to be fun and escapism. And now, all is work, war and torment and addiction and it ruins lifes.
Maybe you pause one time and think what the frack you are doing with your life.
/rant over
nope... no mmo are taking your money if u dont want to pay them.. it's simple as that.. and we are not robbed by any companies.. its your own choice..
If your meaning of life is to have fun in video games, I kinda feel sorry for you. I'm a big gamer by heart, but that is just pushing it too far in to crazy land. Games are just a pastime, always were and always will be. Some are good and some are bad. The good ones you think about for long time, the good ones leave a mark on you, like a good book. But at the end of the day, they are just a pastime.
If current MMOs are not fun for you, don't play em. Don't give em money. All of us here have our vision of perfect MMO, the one game to play for the rest of our lives. But that will never happen. You need to stop idealising videogames and search for deeper meaning in life. You are an artist for god's sake!
And guess what? Life is not fair, big deal. Never was. Can you change the world? You can't even change the virtual one, so why bother? Just enjoy life, find your happiness, do what you can now, don't worry about things you can't effect.
We live in a system where money means everything - so vote with your wallet. Stop pre-ordering games you did not try out. Stop paying for alphas and betas.
And MMOs were always a massive time sink, if you have problem with that, try different games. There is countless titles our there, something will be fun for you.
Cheers!
Every time I read your post, I die a little inside...
You stumbled across a very important point. It is good to have unanswered questions you look to answer - it is when you think you understand everything and have answer to every question - then you should worry.
Don't let the trolls dishearten you. The life God gave you is indeed precious, and should be spent wisely. And not every single activity that gives pleasure is indeed worthy of your time.
Companies that make games are not there to make good games. They are business, they are here to take your money, in best (easiest) way possible. They only make games as good as it takes to milk people for money. You should not expect them to make masterpieces because... well, they're not artists, they're businessmen.
Good luck, try hard. do not give up in your search of your way in life, and you will find it.
Also to the people who like the game, but can't afford to pay for it, or don't want to pay out of principal.... Smed tweeted that trailbazer packs are currently sold at 10 to 1 ratio compared to the others. That means that many closed beta keys will be available, and my guess is at some point they will be offered for free at forums like this. It won't get you a mining pick for free, but it does get you into closed beta without spending anything.
Just be nice to your fellow MMORPG forum guy. Have a nice day.
tanks for the video,I agree with what you are saying but luckily I just play till it stops being fun.
I don't care about achievements,and if I feel they want to mush money I move on to the next game.
maybe they hook people with addictive tendencies,i would not be surprised if they researched this capability.
nothing wrong with making lots of money but me as a customer must feel I am getting my moneys worth.
most of the time we are not.skyrim is money worth spent as a example getting 400+hours for a game that costs the same as other games that you get 15+ hours.
I agree with the original poster on the subject the developers have designed this games to be ultra addictive and thus extra lucrative to their business model and that's all it really is to them.
Most of the bigger corporate game companies don't give a damn if they've ruined people's lives as a result of the addiction they pretty much set in place.
It's to simply say just don't play, but you clearly don't grasp the meaning of addiction very well. People are addicted to all types of different things sometimes multiple different things.
This is just another form of it and a lot of these companies are being quite deliberately irresponsible in aiding in addictive behaviorism through all the obstacles they place in front of the players.
A lot players have literally grown up addicted and programmed by these MMO's prior to even becoming adults. Don't blame the parents either they aren't the ones dangling the carrot. How does a government curb drug abuse they go after the dealers.
These aren't typical games that are easy to just pick up and play and set down and take a break from. These games have been designed meticulously to do the exact opposite.
The developers want you to not be hooked and unable to stop playing for fear of losing all your "hard earned" progress to be "uber" when in reality you look like all the other "addicted" victims around you in these games these companies "prey" upon for their cash.
People have literally committed suicide over these games due to the withdrawals from them or from the unrealistic stress induced by them.
All I have to say is be careful and don't fall victim to the grind it's a game not a commitment you don't owe it your time. Treat it as such it's not a marriage granted people have treated it as such and been divorced as a result of them.
So, pretty much every response to this topic has avoided addressing what the OP was actually talking about. Instead, responders chose to pass judgement on a lifestyle he chooses to live - as if his choice invalidates his opinion on this matter - which it does not. So, I'm going to address the points the OP actually brought to the table.
1. MMO's are no longer about gameplay built around fun and gamer interest. They are about gameplay built around the business model. If you notice, in the past 10 years... nothing about the MMO gameplay has changed a single iota. What has changed, and has had many iterations, is the business model. Suddenly, a game is considered successful because of the business model - not because it is fun and interesting.
2. Notice: we've been playing WoW's MMO gameplay model in every game since it released in 2004. Not a single AAA MMO has surfaced that has been even remotely different since then. And, we've seen the trend... these games DO NOT survive on a monthly subscription model. Why? Because these copy-cat games do not provide a unique enough experience to warrant such a definitive investment from the consumers. WE decided that as a consumer base. WE decided these games weren't worth the subscription. WE decided that, because WE subconsciously knew we were playing the same game with a different art direction. And... we weren't going to pay for it. We made a good decision on this. We were right to demand change. Unfortunately, we were taken advantage of in the process.
3. So, like any business, the corporations had to adapt according to our demands. Not by investing money into new and different design technologies, which is costly and time consuming, but by changing the way they charge for access to their product. So instead of changing the product, they simply changed the way in which they create revenue. This way, they can continue to create the same product, and still make the same amount of money (if not more.) And the more they continue to create the same product, the cheaper it costs them to make it. Why? Because the design technology already exists from the previous game. They simply use the pre-existing design, paste it as a base for the new game, and then add one or two more gimmicks. This is exactly how a game like SWTOR can have so much recorded Voice work in a standard MMO experience for roughly the same amount of money it costs to make any other AAA MMO. How did they do this? The game was already built: it was built when they made Warhammer. All of the money went into the writing, VA's, and art assets - the new gimmicks.
4. The current Free-To-Play business model is essentially a slot machine system where the house fixes the odds of the player obtaining their desired outcome. That's all it is - and it is shoe-horned into every crevice they can shove it. Where to put this slot-machine mechanic into the game is what most of the time spent designing the game is spent on. And by this nature, slot machines cater to those who can afford to play them. And whether you win or lose big, just like any respectable casino, they take care of the big spenders by comping them free meals at the luxury buffet or free nights in the hotel. This is essentially correlates into the idea that these games are actually "Pay-To-Win" or at least, "Pay-To-Be-More-Awesome-Than-Those-Who-Don't-Pay." This is also where you, as a poor artist with minimal funds, start to feel left out. You feel left out... because you ARE left out... by design.
5. The problem here isn't that these guys provide the consumer with this service... the problem is that they basically lie about their intentions. They tell you everything you want to hear, lie about everything, and you end up being tricked into spending money on something you didn't exactly agree to. And because of overly-ridiculous EULA's... there's nothing you can do about it. At least in a Casino, you go into it knowing what to expect. No one calls out MMO's studios on this... and they should. At least, that is MY personal grief with the system.
6. The grind and carrot-on-a-stick is there to increase the probability that you will spend more money on the slot machine. It has nothing to do with fun. That's all there is to that.
7. My advice is to stop playing MMO's until one comes out that proves to provide a genuinely unique experience. Start playing some single player games. Steam puts them on sale every week, and they are fantastic. I bought both Batman Arkham games for $10 a piece on sale (both GOTY Editions.) I got Castlevania: Lords of Shadow for $10 on sale. You can get almost any game released within the past year or two for stupid cheap during the summer and winter sales. And the best part is, it is beyond stupid to fathom how far the SP game experience has left the MMO space behind in terms of every aspect of gaming quality, especially when it comes to innovative new experiences on an aging genre.
I too wish MMO's would have evolved much faster and better than they have in recent years, it's unfortunate for anyone over the age of 25+ to have lived through a groundhog days of repeating copy-cat games and overused formulas. I'm not buying into these early access, founders packs, premium packs which allow me to have early access to a game, It's a clear cash grab. Those who sign-up for free get pushed to the curb and treated like rabbid dogs on crack- who only wish to try a game to see if its worth purchasing. Now if you want to try a game out, you must fork out the cash just to play a early slightly buggy-ridden release of the game.
I'm only slightly bummed out that I won't get early alpha access, although rarely do I get in alphas to be honest. I will have to wait a while more for closed beta, and just for limited access at that. The game is after all going to be F2P all in due time. $20 for unlimited closed beta access is at least a little more reasonable price point, but it is still at a point which I will not buy into. I'm not a fool who departs from his money so easily, Placing $100 on an alpha key or preorder a game, or paying for a virtual ship @Star-Citizen that costs $250/$500 is ones choice. I do not have that luxury and therefore- I will smartly await for video reviews/ratings, to tell if a game is worth the purchase or not. Waiting for release is my best option, and the most valid for me.
I hate to use non MMO examples, but look at those who bought into "Rome: Total War 2 - The poor little flucks, but I have no sympathy for a fool who departs from his money so easily.
....I almost keep forgetting that its going to be F2P o_ O Just a matter of waiting that's all, no big deal in my mind- if I had money to buy into alphas/betas would I? Flucking YES. I also wish I could afford the best star citizen ship on sale....but that would mean I'm a fool who likes to part with his money. Alas I have no money to part with, thus I'm no fool. ;D Yay!
Edit: Also.. I agree with the OP - Money Grabbing FLUCKING FLUCKERS!
Comments
So now you have me interested, I had you pegged as a very different type of gamer. What are you looking for in mmos ? What is it about the new ones that make them so bad ?
I Honestly don't know what im looking for anymore.
(stuff i liked but have long since disappeared or have gone really down hill)
bounty hounds/RF/RYL/dark prophecy/Martial heroes/Knight online/BSGO/DCUO/RO/SuN/LoL/HoN/RoTT/WoW/Rift/CoS...these are the only ones i can remember right now, my memory is pretty well shot.
My only real interest in a game right now, i suppose, is to disregard leveling and content entirely and just craft and make money. I've ground levels and pvp'd for years that the concepts themselves are completely boring to me now. I dunno...maybe if i could be a shop keeper or a merchant or something instead of a generic grind/dungeon/instance/pvp player...
My last 2 hopes for games, are World of Darkness and Shadowrun Online. Both are entirely from a nostalgic point of view, but they're the only candles i still have lit for gaming. When they eventually arrive and i realize that these games will never be what i would hope they would be, i can snuff out the candles and move on from gaming as a whole.
But doesn't "and did it correctly" also include creating a business model that fits how the players want to pay for their entertainment?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hehe, no need to be sorry. I guess if I had much money, I would have bought it too, though mostly out of sheer boredom and desperation. Still, I feel it IS a scam.
(I) Why is a game said to be F2P even bought? If the game was to be sold anyway, ok, but only to be there earlier?
(II) Why is the price so steep? Do ingame gimmicks justify 90 bucks?
(III) Why are there THREE offers? Would not have been more fair to have ONE offer for all, so all have the same chances and then go for a moderate price more people can afford? Like 30 Dollar? I think 30 Dollars would be MORE than enough for a mere alpha access. Even that would feel wrong to me, but allowing some elite who can/will afford 90 dollar to be the elite top, it just feels wrong to me.
There is an entire plethora of evil psychology behind the change in MMOs. And it saddens me so few people want to realize this.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Crafting really is a lost art in mmos and something that's really been ruined by games like wow. As much as I like wow it really did make crafting ( real crafting ) pointless, and it stuck. Eve sadly ( I don't like it :P ) is probably your only option for a deep crafting system, but even that isn't really a lone crafter in his shop. It's corporations and production.
I guess when it comes down to it crafting and what it brings to the game doesn't sell as many tickets as one click potion dispensers or fast food armor smithing so developers don't put it in there.
You should try a tail in the desert. I know nothing about it other than it's a crafting mmo.
In my wackjob mind, no. Somewhere in my noodle, the concept is like....Create game that costs 100m, ?????, People beg you to take their money because of how good it is....Or maybe it does, im not entirely certain.
Sort of like if a company did a humblebundle concept for a game. "Hey, we spent a bunch to create it, but we figure that if you enjoy the game, you'll pay what you'd like for it. Whether it be $17, 1.8m or even 33c, we sincerely appreciate it. If you didn't like it, or figured it wasn't worth a dime...well, thats okay too. We just hope you had fun"....or even "whatever you choose to pay, we will give half of it to charity". yea, guilt trip central, but it makes the money back without making you look like a cold hearted, money grubbing jerk.
Are you really seeing scam and evil psychology? I ask because the answer to all three of your questions is very simple: It's what people are willing to pay for it. If people don't feel it's worth 20-90 dollars, they won't pay it. If they do feel it's worth it, they'll pay for it.
It's really not that complicated.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You see, I love gaming. Seriously. But recently, I really question ... WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING WITH MY MORTAL LIMITED LIFETIME?
Elikal: I asked my self this so many times.
Unfortunately I am addicted. And MMOs are my fix.
I am actually started thinking of how to purge my system from them.
Why?
Because since 2004 all I am getting is bad fix.
Maybe try looking at it from their side. You've given us a good perspective of how you feel but try it from the companies side trying to make money.
You say it's evil psychology, but it's in every store you go into in life. You know why milk is always at the back of the grocery store ? It's the number one item people go to the store just to get..so make people walk past everything and they might remember they need something else. Every item on the shelf is there based on it's size color and shape of packaging and how much the supplier is willing to spend to get the prime locations.
Does knowing this make you think the store is evil ?
So to your question why 3 instead of one ? for the same reason subs are dieing. Someone willing to pay $100 dollars is only going to spend 30. Someone willing to spend $20 may not buy at all.
If you say so what to that...how do you get investors to give you money when they know these types of monitizing tricks and they see you aren't trying to employ them ? It's sort of a vicious circle. the more money you get involved in games the more studies get done on how to make people spend more. The more studies they do the better they get at offering these types of things. Once they become a proven winner investors expect them in the games they're going to put money into.
Really the best thing you can do is educate yourself on how and why they do it and don't fall for it. Other people are going to obviously but with your refusal to, means there is an untapped source of money out there and they will keep looking at ways to get it from you. Maybe you can live with the next system they come up with to get money from people like you.
AAA mmos have become just like those facebook/mobile games. They are all the same with one single goal, make tons of money. They don't care to be inovative or to shift paradigms. Thats why i love some older games, i do enjoy new ones as well, but i don't love any of them. I dont care much as i cared for the older ones. The only game that comes close is LOTRO and thats because i'm a tolkien fan and the game do translate quite well the middle earth i know. It has a certain feel to it. But the game is not that interesting.
If you look at the newer releases, those released already in the "F2P Era", the slot machine concept and all those stuff Notimeforbs wrote about becomes even more apparent. Its kinda sad, a interesting genre so stagnant.
I dont see the cash shop as a problem, as others said its a matter of choice. The problem is, we are running out of choices beyond that, even indies are having trouble pulling off interesting stuff.
Thats why the genre is quite stale and boring. But i have one hope... the MMO concept is getting strong into SP games. Lots of new console releases are going for organic multiplayer experience. Like Dark Souls did. So, new ideas will clash with the MMO concept, maybe something interesting might come up and dethrone the stale format.
Things will change and companies will try to inovate whe the genre starts dying out or another "WoW" rises. The problem is, they will copy the new WoW as they did with the current one.
Isn't the big difference there that you have to pay something for a Humble Bundle, but you don't have to pay anything to play EQ Landmark when it releases.
And if we want to do Elikal's whole moving target thing and talk about F2P in general, isn't the difference that you have to pay before you try the Humble Bundle, and F2P let's you try before you ever spend a single dime?
I mean, your example is a game that costs 100m that they are going to let people play for FREE, and only spend money if and when they find value in it. When compared to asking for a 40-60 dollar box fee before a person can even try the game, I find it hard to label the former the cold hearted, money grubbing jerk.
"Create game that costs 100m, ?????, People beg you to take their money because of how good it is..."
That's the situation we're talking about here, so I'm having trouble following whether you are saying that's a good thing or a bad thing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Money is no longer a driving factor in our society."
- Captain Picard
I thought I should quote this to a guy having Picard both in name and icon.
That also is my vision for the future. A human society where people work to improve themselves and MONEY is no longer existent, and thus no "classes" either. Sidenote: the vision of Star Trek in that iteration is the same like the famous "The Capital" by Karl Marx. As long as people define their lives via money we are walking an ill path.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I don't know why so many people jump on the OPs personal financial situation. That is not the point he wants to make and it doesn't really matter.
I am not rich but I got enough income to spare so I could by all those stuff the MMO companies offer as founder packs, extra mounts, grind reducers or what not else they offer in their cash shops. The point is there is no fun at all in buying ingame rewards from a cash shop or founder packages etc. It means nothing to me and therefore I rarely spent any money on those.
Now you can say, ok, you don't like, don't do it (which I do). But I hoped MMO would evolve differently. They didn't.
@OP MMO pioneer times are over unfortunately and MMOs evolved into something some of us never wanted them to be. Just be happy that we had at least the pleasure to experience those times. Pick from current MMOs the parts you like and ignore all the rest or even find another hobby. I know I am spending less and less time (and money) in MMOs. And the reason is not lack of money or time.
Well, you have 27 years before TV goes away, and then of course there's that whole nuclear nightmare which we somehow managed to scrape our way out of and steamroll toward cheap fusion power. I think that brings us to about the 22nd or 23rd century but we're looking at a world where we're looking at the elimination of hunger... want... the need for possessions... in our utopian society where humans no longer wage war with each other.
It's a neat idea but there's a certain irony here. That's what you want. That's the world you seek, yet you are, at this very moment, annoyed - annoyed to the point of spending an entire night making countless posts and even a video - that someone else can play a video game before you can because they have disposable income that you do not have. A video game that isn't even done yet and will be free for you to play as soon as it is released.
Your current concerns seem to conflict with your ideology so I ask: Is it that you feel everyone should have equal access to everything or that you feel you should have equal access to what others have?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
nope... no mmo are taking your money if u dont want to pay them.. it's simple as that.. and we are not robbed by any companies.. its your own choice..
If your meaning of life is to have fun in video games, I kinda feel sorry for you. I'm a big gamer by heart, but that is just pushing it too far in to crazy land. Games are just a pastime, always were and always will be. Some are good and some are bad. The good ones you think about for long time, the good ones leave a mark on you, like a good book. But at the end of the day, they are just a pastime.
If current MMOs are not fun for you, don't play em. Don't give em money. All of us here have our vision of perfect MMO, the one game to play for the rest of our lives. But that will never happen. You need to stop idealising videogames and search for deeper meaning in life. You are an artist for god's sake!
And guess what? Life is not fair, big deal. Never was. Can you change the world? You can't even change the virtual one, so why bother? Just enjoy life, find your happiness, do what you can now, don't worry about things you can't effect.
We live in a system where money means everything - so vote with your wallet. Stop pre-ordering games you did not try out. Stop paying for alphas and betas.
And MMOs were always a massive time sink, if you have problem with that, try different games. There is countless titles our there, something will be fun for you.
Cheers!
OP, respect to you.
You stumbled across a very important point. It is good to have unanswered questions you look to answer - it is when you think you understand everything and have answer to every question - then you should worry.
Don't let the trolls dishearten you. The life God gave you is indeed precious, and should be spent wisely. And not every single activity that gives pleasure is indeed worthy of your time.
Companies that make games are not there to make good games. They are business, they are here to take your money, in best (easiest) way possible. They only make games as good as it takes to milk people for money. You should not expect them to make masterpieces because... well, they're not artists, they're businessmen.
Good luck, try hard. do not give up in your search of your way in life, and you will find it.
Also to the people who like the game, but can't afford to pay for it, or don't want to pay out of principal.... Smed tweeted that trailbazer packs are currently sold at 10 to 1 ratio compared to the others. That means that many closed beta keys will be available, and my guess is at some point they will be offered for free at forums like this. It won't get you a mining pick for free, but it does get you into closed beta without spending anything.
Just be nice to your fellow MMORPG forum guy. Have a nice day.
tanks for the video,I agree with what you are saying but luckily I just play till it stops being fun.
I don't care about achievements,and if I feel they want to mush money I move on to the next game.
maybe they hook people with addictive tendencies,i would not be surprised if they researched this capability.
nothing wrong with making lots of money but me as a customer must feel I am getting my moneys worth.
most of the time we are not.skyrim is money worth spent as a example getting 400+hours for a game that costs the same as other games that you get 15+ hours.
errrm.... dont buy the 100$ pack then? :P
actually the only item kinda worth it (you can buy/craft the rest ingame, beside the clothings) is the ring.
and yes, i think that thing is kinda unneccessary too... 10% bonus on crafting? really?
i see why they gotta bait people to spend their money on a game not even in alpha yet ^^ but.... uh well, lets agree with you
RAGE!
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
I agree with the original poster on the subject the developers have designed this games to be ultra addictive and thus extra lucrative to their business model and that's all it really is to them.
Most of the bigger corporate game companies don't give a damn if they've ruined people's lives as a result of the addiction they pretty much set in place.
It's to simply say just don't play, but you clearly don't grasp the meaning of addiction very well. People are addicted to all types of different things sometimes multiple different things.
This is just another form of it and a lot of these companies are being quite deliberately irresponsible in aiding in addictive behaviorism through all the obstacles they place in front of the players.
A lot players have literally grown up addicted and programmed by these MMO's prior to even becoming adults. Don't blame the parents either they aren't the ones dangling the carrot. How does a government curb drug abuse they go after the dealers.
These aren't typical games that are easy to just pick up and play and set down and take a break from. These games have been designed meticulously to do the exact opposite.
The developers want you to not be hooked and unable to stop playing for fear of losing all your "hard earned" progress to be "uber" when in reality you look like all the other "addicted" victims around you in these games these companies "prey" upon for their cash.
People have literally committed suicide over these games due to the withdrawals from them or from the unrealistic stress induced by them.
All I have to say is be careful and don't fall victim to the grind it's a game not a commitment you don't owe it your time. Treat it as such it's not a marriage granted people have treated it as such and been divorced as a result of them.
I too wish MMO's would have evolved much faster and better than they have in recent years, it's unfortunate for anyone over the age of 25+ to have lived through a groundhog days of repeating copy-cat games and overused formulas. I'm not buying into these early access, founders packs, premium packs which allow me to have early access to a game, It's a clear cash grab. Those who sign-up for free get pushed to the curb and treated like rabbid dogs on crack- who only wish to try a game to see if its worth purchasing. Now if you want to try a game out, you must fork out the cash just to play a early slightly buggy-ridden release of the game.
I'm only slightly bummed out that I won't get early alpha access, although rarely do I get in alphas to be honest. I will have to wait a while more for closed beta, and just for limited access at that. The game is after all going to be F2P all in due time. $20 for unlimited closed beta access is at least a little more reasonable price point, but it is still at a point which I will not buy into. I'm not a fool who departs from his money so easily, Placing $100 on an alpha key or preorder a game, or paying for a virtual ship @Star-Citizen that costs $250/$500 is ones choice. I do not have that luxury and therefore- I will smartly await for video reviews/ratings, to tell if a game is worth the purchase or not. Waiting for release is my best option, and the most valid for me.
I hate to use non MMO examples, but look at those who bought into "Rome: Total War 2 - The poor little flucks, but I have no sympathy for a fool who departs from his money so easily.
....I almost keep forgetting that its going to be F2P o_ O Just a matter of waiting that's all, no big deal in my mind- if I had money to buy into alphas/betas would I? Flucking YES. I also wish I could afford the best star citizen ship on sale....but that would mean I'm a fool who likes to part with his money. Alas I have no money to part with, thus I'm no fool. ;D Yay!
Edit: Also.. I agree with the OP - Money Grabbing FLUCKING FLUCKERS!
Lol ;-; Ill be patient tho for the beta/release