I'm always surprised when I see people arguing that old-school MMOs weren't hard, they were just tedious. It always strikes me as a kind of disingenuous argument to make, especially when the only examples ever given are ones that could only be described as tedium, while ignoring those that truly could be called challenging. It also completely ignores so much context that puts those activities in a very specific light.
The act of killing mobs for a few hours to level up in FFXI was never "challenging" to me. That was most definitely in the "tedium" category. The thing is, the act of killing the same 2 or 3 mobs over and over for 2-3 hours wasn't what made that enjoyable for me. It was hanging out with a group of people, talking, joking around and generally having a good time. It's how I made a lot of great friends in my time playing FFXI (and other old-school MMOs).
However, there's another aspect to it regarding challenge. While the process of killing mobs over and over itself wasn't difficult - challenge most certainly could rise out of that activity. A bad pull? Something linked? Any of a number of unexpected situations could arise that could quickly elevate a "regular, uneventful fight" into a genuine challenge; a fight where suddenly everyone has to be on their toes, crowd-control has to be on it and ready to deal with adds, players have to know their classes/jobs well enough to know what to do to help reign in and turn a possible wipe into a victory. Those situations most certainly are challenging. They definitely brought some variety and difficulty into the mix.
And what of other activities? Making my way through Shakrami Maze at level 15, navigating my way around mobs that would kill me pretty fast, to obtain an item for a mission was certainly a challenge.
Successfully navigating through places like Castle Oztroja, dealing with enemies many levels higher than me for one of my rank 4 missions was definitely a challenge.
Getting through Castle Zvahl, reaching and then defeating The Shadowlord for the first time was definitely challenging.
Getting to Jeuno without a map, navigating through areas with mobs high enough level to 1-shot me was definitely a challenge.
Learning various fights, and then successfully defeating them was definitely challenging.
Beating Maat to unlock the cap increase to 75 was definitely a challenge.
Figuring out the puzzles for various missions was definitely a challenge.
Completing the different Assault missions within the required time was definitely a challenge.
FFXI, in particular, was (and stil is) full of challenges. So, when people cite that MMO (and they have) as having been "nothign but timesinks that weren't challenging, but just tedious", I can only say those people either never fully experienced FFXI, never played it at all, are just flat out being dishonest, or just plain can't distinguish between "tedium" and "challenge".
I can say the same of myriad other MMOs I've played. There's plenty of challenge to be found in just about any MMO I've ever played. I honestly don't know what people are talking about when they say they were "nothing but tedium". I find that to be completely wrong.
For anyone who would say "they weren't challenging because you could use a guide", all I can say is... that's a ridiculous argument. It's like saying "SUVs aren't heavy because you can use a forklift". It's like using cheat codes to give yourself infinite ammo and a map to see exactly where you have to go, and then complaining that the game was too easy. If you're using something deliberately intended to reduce or eliminate challenge, you lose all right to talk about it "not being difficult".
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Wow has it's good points and bad points but from a gamer's perspective the worst thing they ever did was dumb-down the game for casuals. Everything is way too easy now, too boring and in my opinion WoW just needs to die an honorable death so we all can move on to better games. Games that bring a challenge to the table and that are actually interesting to play.
Its funny how WoW keeps getting labled as being too easy now, though its heroic raids are the hardest raids its ever had, and the hardest raid content in any MMO on the market.
I never raided in vanilla or TBC, and i wouldn't raid in MoP either. What kept me playing WoW for 6 years were the 5 man dungeons, and they were taken away from me in late WotlK.
So i don't care if the only content that is worth to play is end-game raiding, if everything else this game can offer is worthless piece of crap.
Well unfortunately the OP did not make a single point about Wow not being a killer if anything he reaffirmed it.All he did was tell us about it's success stories,yes that is the point,success breeds others to follow the same pattern and that is the KILLER.
One starts marketing miniVans,they all jump on the bandwagon,next someone starts mass marketing SUV's,then everyone is making SUV's,trends after trends,every copies the LAST success story.
Being that there really was only two mainstream MMORPG's at that time EQ1/2 and the FFXi,i would garner a guess that not a lot would have changed because in essence EQ2 is identical to Wow and would have been the main game instead of Wow.Almost nobody knew of FFXI because it had zero marketing in north America.
It really is too bad more did not pickup FFXI as their first,they would have had a MUCH broader perspective on how a game is designed than just linear questing and tons of hand holding mechanics.If you don't think the majority were looking for easy handouts,look no further than CURSE.net,they made a killing from players looking for the Wow Addons,they wanted the game to play itself even easier.
I can point to yet another success story that also had tons of copy cat spin offs>>>Farmville.Yet again ,success and everyone jumps on the bandwagon.All that copy cat design does nothing for the genre,it usually means the NEXT guy is looking to steal some of those players by making things even easier,faster,less thinking with ways for pay to win.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Wow has it's good points and bad points but from a gamer's perspective the worst thing they ever did was dumb-down the game for casuals. Everything is way too easy now, too boring and in my opinion WoW just needs to die an honorable death so we all can move on to better games. Games that bring a challenge to the table and that are actually interesting to play.
Its funny how WoW keeps getting labled as being too easy now, though its heroic raids are the hardest raids its ever had, and the hardest raid content in any MMO on the market.
I never raided in vanilla or TBC, and i wouldn't raid in MoP either. What kept me playing WoW for 6 years were the 5 man dungeons, and they were taken away from me in late WotlK.
So i don't care if the only content that is worth to play is end-game raiding, if everything else this game can offer is worthless piece of crap.
Cata 5 mans were notorious for being the hardest 5 mans WoW has ever had. You had to use all of your CC's you can find on every trash mob, and all bosses had tough mechanics that could 1 shot you, and most had soft enrages. They were harder than anything heoric TBC dungons had, including MGT. Seeing as they were so hard and so many people complained (the term wrath babay was coined during this time), they implemented "challenge mode dungons" in MoP for the crowed that still wanted those hard 5 mans, and toned down the heroics for everyone else. Your gear is normalized in CMs, meaning you can never out gear them, and you have to make your own premades, no dungeon finder. I am really not sure what you are talking about in that they were "taken away form you".
Was it that they became so hard for you, that you got turned off? Its ok to admit that, its what happened to a lot of folks in Cata.
I agree with your assertion that WoW isn't the killer, you just didn't have to follow it up with an op-ed piece of free WoW advertising. Whether it killed the genre or not, WoW is tired, as is the entire fantasy genre.
However, we, the players, killed MMORPGs. The majority of us are casual, and don't like to be challenged to frustration, and that puts extreme limits on what can be done in a game. And with "political correctness"(really "newspeak") ruling the fantasy landscape, we expect to essentially re-write an imagined version of the past with today's vanilla sensibilities. WoW is just a boring representation of today's ideals in a fantasy setting, and with lazy developers copying Blizzard at our behest, as most MMO players are afraid of change, what do we expect? The genre isn't dying, it's just boring.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing......Only I will remain.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I agree with everything you said about WOW (except Panderia - I like it) but I don't see that you have written about the topic of the article - "is WOW the killer?". Your comments show that WOW is NOT the killer
The title is "WoW Isn't the Killer"
Even though I also agree with much of your post, I don't see how that entire heading at the top has much to do with what you wrote in the article. WoW has never been an innovator, and their success led to a bunch of games copying them, so they did lead to a whole slew of completely meh uninnovative games. But innovation isn't dead,so WoW obviously didn't kill it, other games do it all the time. You just don't see much in WoW it is mostly copy and polish, and many times the copy isn't really as good as the original.(transmog, Pokemon, etc... etc...)
I also don't think cuz it's old is much of an excuse. The game was already old in Wrath. I still Baldur's Gate(1!) on occasion, and you know what I enjoy the hell out of it. A truly good game is timeless. I think they are just really good at hooking people, many of them aren't actually having fun though(like the people doing LFR because it is all they have).
I also don't think cuz it's old is much of an excuse. The game was already old in Wrath. I still Baldur's Gate(1!) on occasion, and you know what I enjoy the hell out of it. A truly good game is timeless. I think they are just really good at hooking people, many of them aren't actually having fun though(like the people doing LFR because it is all they have).
a friend gave me a rez scroll for MoP and after about 2 weeks i found that your last statement is exactly true.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I read the article and many of the responses to it...
World of Warcraft is a game many have a love/hate relationship with. It is the mother in law of the MMORPGs.
but a couple things i noticed i had to comment on.
Dreani/Eredar were an after thought... dont believe? then why do the blood elves have a beautiful zone and a rep with nice blue level gear and the Draenei have jack and squat? I will never buy the party line from blizz that the Eredar/Draenei were planned... there wasnt the same level of balance to match the effort that blizz put into the Blood Elves.
Game play is something many have issues with one way or another.... there are those who like the OP and myself miss the 40 man raids for the camaraderie and ill add the mechanics of the fights. I for one dont think the raids today are of the same caliber of the Raids of lore. Monty python life and stats aside... the coordination, Crowd control needs, resistances, and insanity are missing from the raids today.
If anything the insane amount of dailies and the pandas killed MoP for me. every rep has gear/trade skills and mounts tied to them.... 9+ factions that have all the good stuff at exalted. thats a hell of a grind to begin with but then you have the August Celestials that have what? 3 dailies? are you kidding me? 3 dailies to gain exalted status? the farmville wannabe tillers get food, massive amounts of cloth and good rep.
Now the pandas... I agree that the hero class panda was in the RTS... however what in the hell makes it balanced for all races when the pandas alone have xp buffs that they get every ten levels after 20 ad added to that they have a daily xp buff.. and you can stack them where you can have a 100% xp buff for hours on end? I stacked them up to 10 hours before i got tired of it. leveling is so easy with a panda its almost boring. I skipped most of the content right out as nearly every dungeon gave me 3-4 levels.
I loved the beautiful land of pandaria... just not the story nor the race themselves.
...where you aren't and never will be a Warlord of Draenor.
...is Cataclysm for Outlands.
...isn't killing innovation, because there is NO innovation in it to kill.
...will sell like gangbusters, but the rush of new subscriptions into, and then back out of, the game will be faster than a mosquito's sneeze.
Everything in WarDrae (sorry, WoD is already taken) is from somewhere else in WoW. There isn't a single new feature, only minute tweaks to existing features. Even expanding the level cap to 100 isn't new. Baby's First MMO just got even easier.
...where you aren't and never will be a Warlord of Draenor.
...is Cataclysm for Outlands.
...isn't killing innovation, because there is NO innovation in it to kill.
...will sell like gangbusters, but the rush of new subscriptions into, and then back out of, the game will be faster than a mosquito's sneeze.
Everything in WarDrae (sorry, WoD is already taken) is from somewhere else in WoW. There isn't a single new feature, only minute tweaks to existing features. Even expanding the level cap to 100 isn't new. Baby's First MMO just got even easier.
i haven't played in forever, so i am actually curious here, but how is the whole garrison thing just a tweak to existing features?
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Wow has it's good points and bad points but from a gamer's perspective the worst thing they ever did was dumb-down the game for casuals. Everything is way too easy now, too boring and in my opinion WoW just needs to die an honorable death so we all can move on to better games. Games that bring a challenge to the table and that are actually interesting to play.
Its funny how WoW keeps getting labled as being too easy now, though its heroic raids are the hardest raids its ever had, and the hardest raid content in any MMO on the market.
I never raided in vanilla or TBC, and i wouldn't raid in MoP either. What kept me playing WoW for 6 years were the 5 man dungeons, and they were taken away from me in late WotlK.
So i don't care if the only content that is worth to play is end-game raiding, if everything else this game can offer is worthless piece of crap.
Cata 5 mans were notorious for being the hardest 5 mans WoW has ever had. You had to use all of your CC's you can find on every trash mob, and all bosses had tough mechanics that could 1 shot you, and most had soft enrages. They were harder than anything heoric TBC dungons had, including MGT. Seeing as they were so hard and so many people complained (the term wrath babay was coined during this time), they implemented "challenge mode dungons" in MoP for the crowed that still wanted those hard 5 mans, and toned down the heroics for everyone else. Your gear is normalized in CMs, meaning you can never out gear them, and you have to make your own premades, no dungeon finder. I am really not sure what you are talking about in that they were "taken away form you".
Was it that they became so hard for you, that you got turned off? Its ok to admit that, its what happened to a lot of folks in Cata.
I'll see your Cata 5 mans and raise you a Scholomance 20 man raid where we wiped on the first pull.
Or a Shattered halls run.
Or a Shadow Labs run where you needed a priest to MC adds and assassins would come along and one shot your healer mid pull.
Or Arcatraz
WotLK is where WoW crossed the Rubicon. Cata was the realization of that, they got rid of CC and having to strategically pull dungeons with changes in WotLK and tried to go back to that in Cata, with Wrath kiddies that had no clue how to CC and tanks that didnt know how to pull. It was a disaster and was promptly nerfed and we have never gone back.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Wow has it's good points and bad points but from a gamer's perspective the worst thing they ever did was dumb-down the game for casuals. Everything is way too easy now, too boring and in my opinion WoW just needs to die an honorable death so we all can move on to better games. Games that bring a challenge to the table and that are actually interesting to play.
Its funny how WoW keeps getting labled as being too easy now, though its heroic raids are the hardest raids its ever had, and the hardest raid content in any MMO on the market.
I never raided in vanilla or TBC, and i wouldn't raid in MoP either. What kept me playing WoW for 6 years were the 5 man dungeons, and they were taken away from me in late WotlK.
So i don't care if the only content that is worth to play is end-game raiding, if everything else this game can offer is worthless piece of crap.
Cata 5 mans were notorious for being the hardest 5 mans WoW has ever had. You had to use all of your CC's you can find on every trash mob, and all bosses had tough mechanics that could 1 shot you, and most had soft enrages. They were harder than anything heoric TBC dungons had, including MGT. Seeing as they were so hard and so many people complained (the term wrath babay was coined during this time), they implemented "challenge mode dungons" in MoP for the crowed that still wanted those hard 5 mans, and toned down the heroics for everyone else. Your gear is normalized in CMs, meaning you can never out gear them, and you have to make your own premades, no dungeon finder. I am really not sure what you are talking about in that they were "taken away form you".
Was it that they became so hard for you, that you got turned off? Its ok to admit that, its what happened to a lot of folks in Cata.
I'll see your Cata 5 mans and raise you a Scholomance 20 man raid where we wiped on the first pull.
Or a Shattered halls run.
Or a Shadow Labs run where you needed a priest to MC adds and assassins would come along and one shot your healer mid pull.
Or Arcatraz
WotLK is where WoW crossed the Rubicon. Cata was the realization of that, they got rid of CC and having to strategically pull dungeons with changes in WotLK and tried to go back to that in Cata, with Wrath kiddies that had no clue how to CC and tanks that didnt know how to pull. It was a disaster and was promptly nerfed and we have never gone back.
Grim batol in Cata, for example, was harder than Shattered Halls, Shadow labs, Arcatraz, MGT, and every other TBC 5 man.The commpletion rate on all Cata 5 man heorics, esp grim batol, was natoroulsy low. You cant say "i take your cata 5 mans, and raise you" and then proceed to list things that though hard, are actually easier than Cata 5 mans. We were also only talking about 5 mans. If you want to mention raids, high end raiding in WoW has never been harder.
Current challenge modes are roughly on par with cata 5 mans (and at a min, TBC heorics), and are designed to where you can never out gear them. Its odd to me that you say they nerfed the cata 5 mans and then never looked backs, yet the troll 5 mans they added midway through cata were actually harder than the origional cata 5 mans. They have literally kept upping the difficulty of 5 mans since Cata...
Nobody is arguing against wotlk not nerfing 5 mans, but it def got harder since then.
Have not played WOW for quite some time. Got a ten day pass and went back to look around. All I can say is what happened to Kilrogg. It was the server I started on, My main is in Stormwind and I did a /who 1-90 and only 17 people were in stormwind....very sad I guess you can't go back
Try navigating a low level character through an area with no map, pitch black darkness and undead creatures that would one shot you if you even so much as looked at them.
Was finding people to do a dungeon in Vanilla WoW hard?
Try finding a necromancer willing to summon your sorry corpse out of the belly of a dungeon cause all your gear is still on it.
Was traveling in WoW from one flight waypoint to another too hard for your precious time schedule?
Try navigating every zone without a map, no real sense of direction and your only source of fast travel was a kind or friendly druid / wizard willing to port you somewhere for a price.
Oh man, WoW combat is so intense, that's why I need 6 hotkey bars to put all 90 of my badass abilities I need.
If you haven't figured it out yet, I think having exactly 8 slots for skills, spells and abilities makes things a hell of a lot more challenging.
Making coin in WoW is brutal, I'm never going to afford that epic purple sword on the market!!!
Making coin is just as challenging here, in fact, coin has weight and yep, weight slows you down. Let's not forget, our market, was not an auction house in every major city, oh no, it was a player created society, most commonly known as the tunnel of East Commons.
WoW has so many races and classes to choose from, it's incredible!!
Ya, think again and no, we won't make it easy for you by having every race speak common tongue. Nah, we'll give each race their own language and make you work at understanding what the hell your neighbors are talking about. As for classes, well, let's just say we did it right when it came to variety.
Hey boys, I need a full set of Tier 47 gear by the end of the week, sound good?
Ha! You're lucky to spot the creature you need to kill in a week, not to mention it doesn't always drop want you need.
Theres old school MMORPG and then there is WoW... and for those of you who never played EQ, that game was challenging.
*smiles widely* Oh yes, sir. Thanks for summing this up, so I don't have to write it.
I think you got a few valid points, but thing is WoW made a standard. For years MMORPG community had nothing but niche games in the genre. Everyone else just tried to copy WoW. Yeah, I am exaggerating a bit and on purpose, but WoW was too big to let anyone in. Now there are a lot of new concepts around, some ideas became resurrected we have pretty bright feature.
Also I totally agree about tedious mistaken for hard. Rhoklaw absolutely right: Everquest was hard. Though I had no time to (blasted Russian law for military conscription) play Everquest at release, I know enough about it.
Also I cannot help but wonder what would happen to SWG if WoW had not happen to be such a financial success. SOE, of course, could change game and built it around their EQ2 model, but we'll never know. What they did was a total killer of that game. I'm not offended subscriber, I just hate to see a good game to go down.
I don't know about jumping the shark with MoP, I am thinking of re-subscribing and playing it. Thing is WoW is a great game. And the problem we had for almost a decade is going away. People try new innovative approaches to MMORPG (or dig up old ones) and I like it. I think we are doing great these days.
Comments
I'm always surprised when I see people arguing that old-school MMOs weren't hard, they were just tedious. It always strikes me as a kind of disingenuous argument to make, especially when the only examples ever given are ones that could only be described as tedium, while ignoring those that truly could be called challenging. It also completely ignores so much context that puts those activities in a very specific light.
The act of killing mobs for a few hours to level up in FFXI was never "challenging" to me. That was most definitely in the "tedium" category. The thing is, the act of killing the same 2 or 3 mobs over and over for 2-3 hours wasn't what made that enjoyable for me. It was hanging out with a group of people, talking, joking around and generally having a good time. It's how I made a lot of great friends in my time playing FFXI (and other old-school MMOs).
However, there's another aspect to it regarding challenge. While the process of killing mobs over and over itself wasn't difficult - challenge most certainly could rise out of that activity. A bad pull? Something linked? Any of a number of unexpected situations could arise that could quickly elevate a "regular, uneventful fight" into a genuine challenge; a fight where suddenly everyone has to be on their toes, crowd-control has to be on it and ready to deal with adds, players have to know their classes/jobs well enough to know what to do to help reign in and turn a possible wipe into a victory. Those situations most certainly are challenging. They definitely brought some variety and difficulty into the mix.
And what of other activities? Making my way through Shakrami Maze at level 15, navigating my way around mobs that would kill me pretty fast, to obtain an item for a mission was certainly a challenge.
Successfully navigating through places like Castle Oztroja, dealing with enemies many levels higher than me for one of my rank 4 missions was definitely a challenge.
Getting through Castle Zvahl, reaching and then defeating The Shadowlord for the first time was definitely challenging.
Getting to Jeuno without a map, navigating through areas with mobs high enough level to 1-shot me was definitely a challenge.
Learning various fights, and then successfully defeating them was definitely challenging.
Beating Maat to unlock the cap increase to 75 was definitely a challenge.
Figuring out the puzzles for various missions was definitely a challenge.
Completing the different Assault missions within the required time was definitely a challenge.
FFXI, in particular, was (and stil is) full of challenges. So, when people cite that MMO (and they have) as having been "nothign but timesinks that weren't challenging, but just tedious", I can only say those people either never fully experienced FFXI, never played it at all, are just flat out being dishonest, or just plain can't distinguish between "tedium" and "challenge".
I can say the same of myriad other MMOs I've played. There's plenty of challenge to be found in just about any MMO I've ever played. I honestly don't know what people are talking about when they say they were "nothing but tedium". I find that to be completely wrong.
I never raided in vanilla or TBC, and i wouldn't raid in MoP either. What kept me playing WoW for 6 years were the 5 man dungeons, and they were taken away from me in late WotlK.
So i don't care if the only content that is worth to play is end-game raiding, if everything else this game can offer is worthless piece of crap.
Well unfortunately the OP did not make a single point about Wow not being a killer if anything he reaffirmed it.All he did was tell us about it's success stories,yes that is the point,success breeds others to follow the same pattern and that is the KILLER.
One starts marketing miniVans,they all jump on the bandwagon,next someone starts mass marketing SUV's,then everyone is making SUV's,trends after trends,every copies the LAST success story.
Being that there really was only two mainstream MMORPG's at that time EQ1/2 and the FFXi,i would garner a guess that not a lot would have changed because in essence EQ2 is identical to Wow and would have been the main game instead of Wow.Almost nobody knew of FFXI because it had zero marketing in north America.
It really is too bad more did not pickup FFXI as their first,they would have had a MUCH broader perspective on how a game is designed than just linear questing and tons of hand holding mechanics.If you don't think the majority were looking for easy handouts,look no further than CURSE.net,they made a killing from players looking for the Wow Addons,they wanted the game to play itself even easier.
I can point to yet another success story that also had tons of copy cat spin offs>>>Farmville.Yet again ,success and everyone jumps on the bandwagon.All that copy cat design does nothing for the genre,it usually means the NEXT guy is looking to steal some of those players by making things even easier,faster,less thinking with ways for pay to win.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I could never make out why in one of the instances there was an array of mobs doing some formation dancing.
Oh well....
Article is right: WoW isnt killing the MMO genre, incompetent hack MMO developers are.
Do you people really think that all of these MMOs copying WoW would have made something great and wonderful if WoW never existed?
No, of course not. They would have just copied some other MMO, probably EQ2, with equal amount of originality and success.
If WoW is killing the MMO genre its only because it has shown consumers that MMOs can be quality products.
Cata 5 mans were notorious for being the hardest 5 mans WoW has ever had. You had to use all of your CC's you can find on every trash mob, and all bosses had tough mechanics that could 1 shot you, and most had soft enrages. They were harder than anything heoric TBC dungons had, including MGT. Seeing as they were so hard and so many people complained (the term wrath babay was coined during this time), they implemented "challenge mode dungons" in MoP for the crowed that still wanted those hard 5 mans, and toned down the heroics for everyone else. Your gear is normalized in CMs, meaning you can never out gear them, and you have to make your own premades, no dungeon finder. I am really not sure what you are talking about in that they were "taken away form you".
Was it that they became so hard for you, that you got turned off? Its ok to admit that, its what happened to a lot of folks in Cata.
I agree with your assertion that WoW isn't the killer, you just didn't have to follow it up with an op-ed piece of free WoW advertising. Whether it killed the genre or not, WoW is tired, as is the entire fantasy genre.
However, we, the players, killed MMORPGs. The majority of us are casual, and don't like to be challenged to frustration, and that puts extreme limits on what can be done in a game. And with "political correctness"(really "newspeak") ruling the fantasy landscape, we expect to essentially re-write an imagined version of the past with today's vanilla sensibilities. WoW is just a boring representation of today's ideals in a fantasy setting, and with lazy developers copying Blizzard at our behest, as most MMO players are afraid of change, what do we expect? The genre isn't dying, it's just boring.
Anything new here? Hmmm... Nope. o/
i thought Fear was the killer:
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Even though I also agree with much of your post, I don't see how that entire heading at the top has much to do with what you wrote in the article. WoW has never been an innovator, and their success led to a bunch of games copying them, so they did lead to a whole slew of completely meh uninnovative games. But innovation isn't dead,so WoW obviously didn't kill it, other games do it all the time. You just don't see much in WoW it is mostly copy and polish, and many times the copy isn't really as good as the original.(transmog, Pokemon, etc... etc...)
I also don't think cuz it's old is much of an excuse. The game was already old in Wrath. I still Baldur's Gate(1!) on occasion, and you know what I enjoy the hell out of it. A truly good game is timeless. I think they are just really good at hooking people, many of them aren't actually having fun though(like the people doing LFR because it is all they have).
a friend gave me a rez scroll for MoP and after about 2 weeks i found that your last statement is exactly true.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I read the article and many of the responses to it...
World of Warcraft is a game many have a love/hate relationship with. It is the mother in law of the MMORPGs.
but a couple things i noticed i had to comment on.
Dreani/Eredar were an after thought... dont believe? then why do the blood elves have a beautiful zone and a rep with nice blue level gear and the Draenei have jack and squat? I will never buy the party line from blizz that the Eredar/Draenei were planned... there wasnt the same level of balance to match the effort that blizz put into the Blood Elves.
Game play is something many have issues with one way or another.... there are those who like the OP and myself miss the 40 man raids for the camaraderie and ill add the mechanics of the fights. I for one dont think the raids today are of the same caliber of the Raids of lore. Monty python life and stats aside... the coordination, Crowd control needs, resistances, and insanity are missing from the raids today.
If anything the insane amount of dailies and the pandas killed MoP for me. every rep has gear/trade skills and mounts tied to them.... 9+ factions that have all the good stuff at exalted. thats a hell of a grind to begin with but then you have the August Celestials that have what? 3 dailies? are you kidding me? 3 dailies to gain exalted status? the farmville wannabe tillers get food, massive amounts of cloth and good rep.
Now the pandas... I agree that the hero class panda was in the RTS... however what in the hell makes it balanced for all races when the pandas alone have xp buffs that they get every ten levels after 20 ad added to that they have a daily xp buff.. and you can stack them where you can have a 100% xp buff for hours on end? I stacked them up to 10 hours before i got tired of it. leveling is so easy with a panda its almost boring. I skipped most of the content right out as nearly every dungeon gave me 3-4 levels.
I loved the beautiful land of pandaria... just not the story nor the race themselves.
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
The spice MUST flow...
offttopic - Dune is one of the few stories where I love the trilogy and I dislike the rest of the series
EQ2 fan sites
Warlords of Draenor...
...where you aren't and never will be a Warlord of Draenor.
...is Cataclysm for Outlands.
...isn't killing innovation, because there is NO innovation in it to kill.
...will sell like gangbusters, but the rush of new subscriptions into, and then back out of, the game will be faster than a mosquito's sneeze.
Everything in WarDrae (sorry, WoD is already taken) is from somewhere else in WoW. There isn't a single new feature, only minute tweaks to existing features. Even expanding the level cap to 100 isn't new. Baby's First MMO just got even easier.
i haven't played in forever, so i am actually curious here, but how is the whole garrison thing just a tweak to existing features?
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I'll see your Cata 5 mans and raise you a Scholomance 20 man raid where we wiped on the first pull.
Or a Shattered halls run.
Or a Shadow Labs run where you needed a priest to MC adds and assassins would come along and one shot your healer mid pull.
Or Arcatraz
WotLK is where WoW crossed the Rubicon. Cata was the realization of that, they got rid of CC and having to strategically pull dungeons with changes in WotLK and tried to go back to that in Cata, with Wrath kiddies that had no clue how to CC and tanks that didnt know how to pull. It was a disaster and was promptly nerfed and we have never gone back.
Grim batol in Cata, for example, was harder than Shattered Halls, Shadow labs, Arcatraz, MGT, and every other TBC 5 man.The commpletion rate on all Cata 5 man heorics, esp grim batol, was natoroulsy low. You cant say "i take your cata 5 mans, and raise you" and then proceed to list things that though hard, are actually easier than Cata 5 mans. We were also only talking about 5 mans. If you want to mention raids, high end raiding in WoW has never been harder.
Current challenge modes are roughly on par with cata 5 mans (and at a min, TBC heorics), and are designed to where you can never out gear them. Its odd to me that you say they nerfed the cata 5 mans and then never looked backs, yet the troll 5 mans they added midway through cata were actually harder than the origional cata 5 mans. They have literally kept upping the difficulty of 5 mans since Cata...
Nobody is arguing against wotlk not nerfing 5 mans, but it def got harder since then.
I have a little girl - she thought WoW's pandas were cute.
Unsubscribed.
*smiles widely* Oh yes, sir. Thanks for summing this up, so I don't have to write it.
I think you got a few valid points, but thing is WoW made a standard. For years MMORPG community had nothing but niche games in the genre. Everyone else just tried to copy WoW. Yeah, I am exaggerating a bit and on purpose, but WoW was too big to let anyone in. Now there are a lot of new concepts around, some ideas became resurrected we have pretty bright feature.
Also I totally agree about tedious mistaken for hard. Rhoklaw absolutely right: Everquest was hard. Though I had no time to (blasted Russian law for military conscription) play Everquest at release, I know enough about it.
Also I cannot help but wonder what would happen to SWG if WoW had not happen to be such a financial success. SOE, of course, could change game and built it around their EQ2 model, but we'll never know. What they did was a total killer of that game. I'm not offended subscriber, I just hate to see a good game to go down.
I don't know about jumping the shark with MoP, I am thinking of re-subscribing and playing it. Thing is WoW is a great game. And the problem we had for almost a decade is going away. People try new innovative approaches to MMORPG (or dig up old ones) and I like it. I think we are doing great these days.
To paraphrase: the MMORPGs should grow.