Found one of the polls on another website (all individual voters, no duplicates) so am not copying it from beta
Beta 4 Poll results: 122 Qualifying responses LOVE = 4...(3.29%) LIKE = 23...(18.88%) FAIR = 13...(10.65%) INFERIOR = 17...(13.93%) POOR = 37...(30.03%) DREAD = 28...(22.95%)
Final poll results BETA 3 after 210 valid replies: LOVE = 0 ... 0% LIKE = 33 ... 15.7% FAIR = 23 ... 10.9% INFERIOR = 27 ... 12.8% POOR = 86 ... 40.9% DREAD = 41 ... 19.5%
Final poll results BETA 2 after 290 valid replies: LOVE = 4 ... 1.37 % LIKE = 66 ... 22.75% POOR = 149 ... 51.37% DREAD = 71 ... 24.48%
As you can see, as time went on, fewer and fewer people even bothered to vote in these polls, many people simply gave up on beta when they learned the changes were going ahead regardless.
Again, I'm not trying to put Lotro down, I hope it continues for years, but I detest when a small minority of people claim those on beta that disliked the changes were a small minority of people when this simply wasn't the case.
How about a link to this poll? I would love to know what website it was and if it actually even exist. Maybe people stopped voting cause they were too busy playing LOTRO.
It was a beta poll, as someone above stated even though the NDA is lifted; no links, no copy/pastes are allowed without prior approval from beta CM's. That included the guides.
EDIT: and yes it was asked if the polls could be reposted, was denied.
Sorry I have heard very few negative comments on the changes, your poll numbers are ludicrous, not even a sample large enough to count for anything.
It is ok not to like something, but making up stories about a large contingent not liking it to support your position is just ridiculous. Turbine is certainly not worrying about it.
Of course you haven't heard anything negative. Sapience hands out infractions to anyone argues with any of the turbine defenders. There's a reason the most critical posts sound tepid.
Yep, and to be honest I would be very careful about what we post here.... I would not doubt that Sapience has an "in" with the Moderators here.
Turbine does not care what Players think or want, they don't even care if they lose Players over these changes.... because to them we are just Cattle to be milked and butchered, and Turbine seems to be confident that these new changes will attract far more new Players to LotRO than the number of Players that decide to leave due to the changes.
Yet another MMO Publisher attempts to swaps out the existing Player base for a newer and larger one.
HD and the game changes themselves can be adapted to... lived with... it wasn't the changes that angered most Players so far... it's how Turbine treated the Players through it all... it's Turbine's attitude towards their customers that's the cause of hate and discontent right now.
I will never again allow myself to get wrapped up in a MMO the way I did LotRO (and LotRO wasn't my first MMO, it was my fourth).
Sorry I have heard very few negative comments on the changes, your poll numbers are ludicrous, not even a sample large enough to count for anything.
It is ok not to like something, but making up stories about a large contingent not liking it to support your position is just ridiculous. Turbine is certainly not worrying about it.
You believe what you want to Ozmodan. The news from Beta was not all bad, but there was more bad than good. It may have been done for good reasons, but the process was implemented badly so far, and the hard feelings that were generated with how this was handled by Turbine will not go away so easily.
And you're right about one thing..... "Turbine is certainly not worrying about it".... THAT IS THE PROBLEM. They just dis-qualified themselves as a MMO Publisher as far as I am concerned. Once a MMO Publisher stops caring about their relationship with their Players, then it's over except for the server merges. It's just a matter of time.
Sorry I have heard very few negative comments on the changes, your poll numbers are ludicrous, not even a sample large enough to count for anything.
It is ok not to like something, but making up stories about a large contingent not liking it to support your position is just ridiculous. Turbine is certainly not worrying about it.
You believe what you want to Ozmodan. The news from Beta was not all bad, but there was more bad than good. It may have been done for good reasons, but the process was implemented badly so far, and the hard feelings that were generated with how this was handled by Turbine will not go away so easily.
And you're right about one thing..... "Turbine is certainly not worrying about it".... THAT IS THE PROBLEM. They just dis-qualified themselves as a MMO Publisher as far as I am concerned. Once a MMO Publisher stops caring about their relationship with their Players, then it's over except for the server merges. It's just a matter of time.
Sorry, but Turbine in my book is far superior to most of the pack when it comes to MMO's. It is not even close about the only one I like better is Trion. Even Blizzard has so dumbed down their MMO it has lost enjoyment for many. Lotro is still far more challenging. I don't agree with all the changes that Turbine is making, but they are really minor when you look at all the other MMO's out there.
Sorry I have heard very few negative comments on the changes, your poll numbers are ludicrous, not even a sample large enough to count for anything.
It is ok not to like something, but making up stories about a large contingent not liking it to support your position is just ridiculous. Turbine is certainly not worrying about it.
You believe what you want to Ozmodan. The news from Beta was not all bad, but there was more bad than good. It may have been done for good reasons, but the process was implemented badly so far, and the hard feelings that were generated with how this was handled by Turbine will not go away so easily.
And you're right about one thing..... "Turbine is certainly not worrying about it".... THAT IS THE PROBLEM. They just dis-qualified themselves as a MMO Publisher as far as I am concerned. Once a MMO Publisher stops caring about their relationship with their Players, then it's over except for the server merges. It's just a matter of time.
Sorry, but Turbine in my book is far superior to most of the pack when it comes to MMO's. It is not even close about the only one I like better is Trion. Even Blizzard has so dumbed down their MMO it has lost enjoyment for many. Lotro is still far more challenging. I don't agree with all the changes that Turbine is making, but they are really minor when you look at all the other MMO's out there.
Yes Turbine is better than most, but make no mistake.... Turbine does not care about the Players as much as you think they do. Their own actions, policies, decisions, bear that out. If you haven't seen this yet then good for you, you still have your innocence.
As for the changes Turbine is making.... these changes in HD can not be considered "minor" in any stretch of imagination. These are major changes that will change the game in considerable ways. That is without a doubt now, the changes are documented.
I don't know what your definition of the phrase "minor change" is, but if you really think dropping the Trait system and replacing it with a flawed and punitive skill tree system is no big deal... then we will never see eye to eye on this, not even after this coming Monday. This is already a gamebreaker for some that were Beta Testers... some Players have already quit and left LotRO over this.
For now it is obvious all we agree upon is that we disagree. Have a good day Sir.
Whenever there are big, sweeping changes to character progression and skills in a game, there will always be more people unhappy with it than happy with it. It makes no difference if the changes are good or bad, you always get more people upset than pleased, because the folks that have put in all that time, effort, and theorycrafting into a character they've been playing for years suddenly has all that work undone. Of course they won't be happy about it.
Doesn't necessarily mean the changes are bad. People don't like change. Period.
Anyway, I'm excited about the changes, personally. I haven't played beta, mind you, so I'm not sure how much I'll enjoy them. But from the videos I've seen, the combat seems noticeably more fluid and fast-paced, and that's something that has always been the weakest part of this otherwise excellent game. I've re-subscribed and my plan is to re-roll a character from scratch so that I can experience all the class changes from the ground floor up. I'm most likely going with a Champion on the Landroval server. Probably will get into some RP. Name is Ivnarth if anyone else is starting from scratch.
I always had a special good feeling while playing this game but haven't played it in a long long time. I am thinking about a return since no other games have my interest right now. This game would be such a great game if they added an evil faction with similar classes (other names) like the free people have. And added frontier PVP that actually meant something for the story and for the players. I did play the PVP they have now but am no fan of it.
Consider, if you will, this semi-outside perspective. I am a lifer, picked up the game shortly after launch. I loved the game when I was playing it, but left shortly after the launch of Mirkwood (no particular reason, just wanted to try something different after playing the same game for several years).
I returned about two months ago (and two major expansion packs later). Now, I only peripherally followed the game over the past three or four years so I cannot speak with total authority, but I would wager that there was similar consternation, doom, gloom, dissapointment, and dissatisfaciton with the launch of Riders of Rohan and the Isengard expansions. I remember there was quite a to-do about Open Taping or something along those lines, and I'm sure the introduction of Mounted Combat didn't come without quite a bit of negativity. I think a lot of this comes simply because those in Beta tend to be close to the game. They know it one way, and when the game changes that change tends to be seen negatively.
Now for my somewhat outside perspective. I can say, as someone who knew the game quite intimately for a number of years, but who had not played through the post-level 65 content until fairly recently (and having made a new toon to sort of play some of the earlier stuff again), I can safely say that there is almost NOTHING that has been added or changed about the game as it stands today that I think makes it better off than it was when I left. Yes, the Mithril Coin quick travel can cheapen the 'epic' nature of the map. I would also argue that the player economy is borked (but that is simply because of the proliferation of wealth among the player base more than anything. I for sure now have far more money than I ever had the first time around). And the fact that legendary items don't truly level with you the way they should is an annoyance. But for the most part, these are minor issues, the sort of problems you have with a game that make you roll your eyes and say "what were the developers thinking," and then you go back and keep playing because they don't really get in the way of your play experience. And many of these changes I welcomed. The Destination: quests help me better understand what regions are open to me based on level. Revamped Bree-Town seems so alive! Having multiple avenues for reaching level 70 and beyond is nice.
In the grand scheme the game plays well. The new content has been well integrated with the old. The revamps of the early zones provide some better flow. Indeed, the fact that there are still so many zones in which to level that you can't possibly hope to hit them all on-level in one play through (even for high-level characters!) is a testemant to the diversity this game offers. There are even some features that I personally decried and refused to use when they were launched (Quest Guide chief among them) that now, after some time away from the game, I have come to appreciate.
The fact that the game holds up for a player like me says two things about LOTRO and Turbine.
1) Turbine thinks long-term. Not all of the content released in expansions or content releases seem to make sense to end-game players. But that's because not all content is meant for end-game. Turbine understands that, for the game to continue to bring in new players (and to keep its current, altoholic players), progression needs to have nice transitions from level 1 to 95 and that progression needs to be less intimidating for new players. I am talking about the skill revamp here, too, by the way. By level 95, how many freakin' skills can you expect to have? I logged in to my Guardian after not playing for three years, and his quick-bars were bursting at the seams with skills. There was no room left for more. And this was a level 60 Guardian! I can't imagine what another 40 levels worth of skills would do. Plus, all those skills were, frankly, overwhelming. I had so many buttons to click that I couldn't remember my rotations and combos, so I just created a new character and putzed around a little while to remember the basics of the game. I think this is what the Devs had in mind with the Combat Update (I hate to call it that, being a SWG player, but that's just the name that leaps to my brain). This sort of stuff may not make sense to people in the thick of it, so to speak. Believe, I understand! I was right there with you for some of the changes that were made back when I played the first time. But now, a few years later, I can look back on those changes and say "yeah, they weren't as bad as I thought."
2) Turbine fixes the major issues. People didn't like the layout of Moria. Moria got completely revamped. People didn't like open tapping. Open tapping got changed up. Remember, people hated Angmar at launch! Angmar got a total facelift. The notable omission from this list is Legendary Items, but that ship has long sailed and I think players have settled in with that LIs are and are not. It may take some time, but if anything glaring comes out with HD, I feel like Turbine will respond. It might not be next week or next month, but if history is an indication I feel like things will work out.
I'm sure I came off as 'rah rah Turbine!' and I probably tend to lean more towards their side because of my history with the LOTRO community and some of the access Turbine offered me back in my hayday as a LOTRO podcast host. That doesn't mean I am not critical. The game ain't all roses. But I have perspective of someone who has taken a step back and has been able to look at the game holistically, from launch to today. I can say, for the most part, it is good.
Great and well-written post, I hope you don't mind if I disagree with a few parts of it I'm not sure that the former changes were all good and rosy, but that's not even important. I think the root of all of my disagreement is that you compare HD changes to the previous ones, and that's not fit.
In all these 6+ years this is the first change that will massively alter the way how the game is to be played, for everyone. There was the stat change, but many folks didn't even noticed that, and it mostly affected gear only. There was the Radiance add then later remove, it was gear-only as well, and affected mostly the raiders (but with Finesse they've managed to wreck wardens for months... that's only a sidenote for your point 1., thinking long-term )
With gear-only I mean it didn't changed a thing in the game, only added some required extra grinding time with the same gameplay. LI's started as the same, a nice alternate advancement mechanic, affecting only a few gear pieces. Sadly, during the years it became a grind behemoth, with less and less supporters, because it's tedious and boring like hell.
Skirmishes were an another nice example of their long-term thinking... a quick, fun content besides the game (again, not changed a thing in the gameplay), for som additional leveling and with the skirm soldiers a secondary advancement option. During the years it also became a separate game in the game, with ruining group play (since you can get everything for marks/medallions/seals, so why bother with instances, pugs and random drops in the end). I bet they haven't planned it that way. And that's why it's a bit saddening that the core part of HD will be an overgrowth skirmish as well...
After RoI there was a gameplay change with minis. It was a minor one compared to what will hit minstrels with HD, but still, it was enough to split the minstrel players, and for a chunk of them to ditch the mini entirely. Turbine could've at least learn from that, unwanted messing with a 6+ years old gameplay is not a wise idea... and again, Orion mini was nowhere near to that mess HD mini will be, sadly.
You said you'd wager that the same doom-gloom were before RoI and RoR (with examples of open tapping and mounted combat) - I guess you'd lose that bet There were some, of course. Mostly because of the missing group content, which was a rightful concern, might I add.
But neither of open tapping and mounted combat changed the gameplay, only expanded it in some ways. Actually I don't really remember hostility against those mechanics, only the implementation. (like open tapping counted only damage and heal in the beginning, and concerns that mounted combat will add a whole new level of grind into the game - which it did, btw)
Again, the problem with HD is that it will not simply add some new mechanics, or expanding your options and your gameplay. The problem is that after HD the game you knew and loved for years, will be gone. If you play chess for 6 years, and suddenly they change it to checkers for you, that won't be the same game even if the board is the same...
edit: unrelated to the issue but "people didn't like the layout of Moria" is not correct, they didn't liked the randomly placed quests, the fuzzy questlines, and that you had to fight 24/7, with every step, back and forth on the quests and the rep grind didn't helped either. But I agree, revamped Moria has a great flow now.
Comments
It was a beta poll, as someone above stated even though the NDA is lifted; no links, no copy/pastes are allowed without prior approval from beta CM's. That included the guides.
EDIT: and yes it was asked if the polls could be reposted, was denied.
Yep, and to be honest I would be very careful about what we post here.... I would not doubt that Sapience has an "in" with the Moderators here.
Turbine does not care what Players think or want, they don't even care if they lose Players over these changes.... because to them we are just Cattle to be milked and butchered, and Turbine seems to be confident that these new changes will attract far more new Players to LotRO than the number of Players that decide to leave due to the changes.
Yet another MMO Publisher attempts to swaps out the existing Player base for a newer and larger one.
HD and the game changes themselves can be adapted to... lived with... it wasn't the changes that angered most Players so far... it's how Turbine treated the Players through it all... it's Turbine's attitude towards their customers that's the cause of hate and discontent right now.
I will never again allow myself to get wrapped up in a MMO the way I did LotRO (and LotRO wasn't my first MMO, it was my fourth).
You believe what you want to Ozmodan. The news from Beta was not all bad, but there was more bad than good. It may have been done for good reasons, but the process was implemented badly so far, and the hard feelings that were generated with how this was handled by Turbine will not go away so easily.
And you're right about one thing..... "Turbine is certainly not worrying about it".... THAT IS THE PROBLEM. They just dis-qualified themselves as a MMO Publisher as far as I am concerned. Once a MMO Publisher stops caring about their relationship with their Players, then it's over except for the server merges. It's just a matter of time.
I got the polls from here.
http://lotrocommunity.com/forum/topic/2218-br-skill-tree-poll/page-9#entry57478
But I can assure you I also read those exact comments and voted in them on the beta forums.
Sorry, but Turbine in my book is far superior to most of the pack when it comes to MMO's. It is not even close about the only one I like better is Trion. Even Blizzard has so dumbed down their MMO it has lost enjoyment for many. Lotro is still far more challenging. I don't agree with all the changes that Turbine is making, but they are really minor when you look at all the other MMO's out there.
Yes Turbine is better than most, but make no mistake.... Turbine does not care about the Players as much as you think they do. Their own actions, policies, decisions, bear that out. If you haven't seen this yet then good for you, you still have your innocence.
As for the changes Turbine is making.... these changes in HD can not be considered "minor" in any stretch of imagination. These are major changes that will change the game in considerable ways. That is without a doubt now, the changes are documented.
I don't know what your definition of the phrase "minor change" is, but if you really think dropping the Trait system and replacing it with a flawed and punitive skill tree system is no big deal... then we will never see eye to eye on this, not even after this coming Monday. This is already a gamebreaker for some that were Beta Testers... some Players have already quit and left LotRO over this.
For now it is obvious all we agree upon is that we disagree. Have a good day Sir.
Whenever there are big, sweeping changes to character progression and skills in a game, there will always be more people unhappy with it than happy with it. It makes no difference if the changes are good or bad, you always get more people upset than pleased, because the folks that have put in all that time, effort, and theorycrafting into a character they've been playing for years suddenly has all that work undone. Of course they won't be happy about it.
Doesn't necessarily mean the changes are bad. People don't like change. Period.
Anyway, I'm excited about the changes, personally. I haven't played beta, mind you, so I'm not sure how much I'll enjoy them. But from the videos I've seen, the combat seems noticeably more fluid and fast-paced, and that's something that has always been the weakest part of this otherwise excellent game. I've re-subscribed and my plan is to re-roll a character from scratch so that I can experience all the class changes from the ground floor up. I'm most likely going with a Champion on the Landroval server. Probably will get into some RP. Name is Ivnarth if anyone else is starting from scratch.
Consider, if you will, this semi-outside perspective. I am a lifer, picked up the game shortly after launch. I loved the game when I was playing it, but left shortly after the launch of Mirkwood (no particular reason, just wanted to try something different after playing the same game for several years).
I returned about two months ago (and two major expansion packs later). Now, I only peripherally followed the game over the past three or four years so I cannot speak with total authority, but I would wager that there was similar consternation, doom, gloom, dissapointment, and dissatisfaciton with the launch of Riders of Rohan and the Isengard expansions. I remember there was quite a to-do about Open Taping or something along those lines, and I'm sure the introduction of Mounted Combat didn't come without quite a bit of negativity. I think a lot of this comes simply because those in Beta tend to be close to the game. They know it one way, and when the game changes that change tends to be seen negatively.
Now for my somewhat outside perspective. I can say, as someone who knew the game quite intimately for a number of years, but who had not played through the post-level 65 content until fairly recently (and having made a new toon to sort of play some of the earlier stuff again), I can safely say that there is almost NOTHING that has been added or changed about the game as it stands today that I think makes it better off than it was when I left. Yes, the Mithril Coin quick travel can cheapen the 'epic' nature of the map. I would also argue that the player economy is borked (but that is simply because of the proliferation of wealth among the player base more than anything. I for sure now have far more money than I ever had the first time around). And the fact that legendary items don't truly level with you the way they should is an annoyance. But for the most part, these are minor issues, the sort of problems you have with a game that make you roll your eyes and say "what were the developers thinking," and then you go back and keep playing because they don't really get in the way of your play experience. And many of these changes I welcomed. The Destination: quests help me better understand what regions are open to me based on level. Revamped Bree-Town seems so alive! Having multiple avenues for reaching level 70 and beyond is nice.
In the grand scheme the game plays well. The new content has been well integrated with the old. The revamps of the early zones provide some better flow. Indeed, the fact that there are still so many zones in which to level that you can't possibly hope to hit them all on-level in one play through (even for high-level characters!) is a testemant to the diversity this game offers. There are even some features that I personally decried and refused to use when they were launched (Quest Guide chief among them) that now, after some time away from the game, I have come to appreciate.
The fact that the game holds up for a player like me says two things about LOTRO and Turbine.
1) Turbine thinks long-term. Not all of the content released in expansions or content releases seem to make sense to end-game players. But that's because not all content is meant for end-game. Turbine understands that, for the game to continue to bring in new players (and to keep its current, altoholic players), progression needs to have nice transitions from level 1 to 95 and that progression needs to be less intimidating for new players. I am talking about the skill revamp here, too, by the way. By level 95, how many freakin' skills can you expect to have? I logged in to my Guardian after not playing for three years, and his quick-bars were bursting at the seams with skills. There was no room left for more. And this was a level 60 Guardian! I can't imagine what another 40 levels worth of skills would do. Plus, all those skills were, frankly, overwhelming. I had so many buttons to click that I couldn't remember my rotations and combos, so I just created a new character and putzed around a little while to remember the basics of the game. I think this is what the Devs had in mind with the Combat Update (I hate to call it that, being a SWG player, but that's just the name that leaps to my brain). This sort of stuff may not make sense to people in the thick of it, so to speak. Believe, I understand! I was right there with you for some of the changes that were made back when I played the first time. But now, a few years later, I can look back on those changes and say "yeah, they weren't as bad as I thought."
2) Turbine fixes the major issues. People didn't like the layout of Moria. Moria got completely revamped. People didn't like open tapping. Open tapping got changed up. Remember, people hated Angmar at launch! Angmar got a total facelift. The notable omission from this list is Legendary Items, but that ship has long sailed and I think players have settled in with that LIs are and are not. It may take some time, but if anything glaring comes out with HD, I feel like Turbine will respond. It might not be next week or next month, but if history is an indication I feel like things will work out.
I'm sure I came off as 'rah rah Turbine!' and I probably tend to lean more towards their side because of my history with the LOTRO community and some of the access Turbine offered me back in my hayday as a LOTRO podcast host. That doesn't mean I am not critical. The game ain't all roses. But I have perspective of someone who has taken a step back and has been able to look at the game holistically, from launch to today. I can say, for the most part, it is good.
Great and well-written post, I hope you don't mind if I disagree with a few parts of it
I'm not sure that the former changes were all good and rosy, but that's not even important. I think the root of all of my disagreement is that you compare HD changes to the previous ones, and that's not fit.
In all these 6+ years this is the first change that will massively alter the way how the game is to be played, for everyone. There was the stat change, but many folks didn't even noticed that, and it mostly affected gear only. There was the Radiance add then later remove, it was gear-only as well, and affected mostly the raiders (but with Finesse they've managed to wreck wardens for months... that's only a sidenote for your point 1., thinking long-term
)
With gear-only I mean it didn't changed a thing in the game, only added some required extra grinding time with the same gameplay. LI's started as the same, a nice alternate advancement mechanic, affecting only a few gear pieces. Sadly, during the years it became a grind behemoth, with less and less supporters, because it's tedious and boring like hell.
Skirmishes were an another nice example of their long-term thinking... a quick, fun content besides the game (again, not changed a thing in the gameplay), for som additional leveling and with the skirm soldiers a secondary advancement option. During the years it also became a separate game in the game, with ruining group play (since you can get everything for marks/medallions/seals, so why bother with instances, pugs and random drops in the end). I bet they haven't planned it that way. And that's why it's a bit saddening that the core part of HD will be an overgrowth skirmish as well...
After RoI there was a gameplay change with minis. It was a minor one compared to what will hit minstrels with HD, but still, it was enough to split the minstrel players, and for a chunk of them to ditch the mini entirely. Turbine could've at least learn from that, unwanted messing with a 6+ years old gameplay is not a wise idea... and again, Orion mini was nowhere near to that mess HD mini will be, sadly.
You said you'd wager that the same doom-gloom were before RoI and RoR (with examples of open tapping and mounted combat) - I guess you'd lose that bet
There were some, of course. Mostly because of the missing group content, which was a rightful concern, might I add.
But neither of open tapping and mounted combat changed the gameplay, only expanded it in some ways. Actually I don't really remember hostility against those mechanics, only the implementation. (like open tapping counted only damage and heal in the beginning, and concerns that mounted combat will add a whole new level of grind into the game - which it did, btw)
Again, the problem with HD is that it will not simply add some new mechanics, or expanding your options and your gameplay. The problem is that after HD the game you knew and loved for years, will be gone. If you play chess for 6 years, and suddenly they change it to checkers for you, that won't be the same game even if the board is the same...
edit: unrelated to the issue but "people didn't like the layout of Moria" is not correct, they didn't liked the randomly placed quests, the fuzzy questlines, and that you had to fight 24/7, with every step, back and forth on the quests
and the rep grind didn't helped either. But I agree, revamped Moria has a great flow now.