Not much talk yet about the potential implications on the genre is this Kickstarter fails. Anyone else share my concern that if this game fails in crowd-funding it will severely damage the possibility of another "old-school" MMO coming for some time?
Also, I'm neutral on the Brad McQuaid "issue", but apparently ~40% of the people on this forum are going to be making a decision on this game soley based on whether and how Brad McQuaid is involved (for good or bad). That's pretty astounding as far as figures are concerned.
i dont.
primarily because the investors in an old school mmo are the same investors who know Mcquaid's past history. this muddies the waters and makes the KS campaign more about Mcquaid and less about an old school mmo.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I DONT CARE whos making the fucking game, SO LONG as its challenging, rewarding, old school, high fantasy, sandbox with "some" instances, 6man grps atleast, holy trinity, 40man raids 10man raids 25man raids, depends on the challenge i guess, BUT MINIMUM 6-8 man grps, and 25man raids. Items that has real ingame value, and not just copyshit, items when they are epic, they are truly epic, a good customization toolbar, and free dyes, and ofcourse GUILD pvp! when two guilds declare war, they can murder eachother in neutral towns etc...!!!!! fuuuuck yeah!!!!! a mix of EQ.UO,Darkageofcamelot and shadowbane!!! wtff LETS GO!
I liked Vanguard but let me first see what he has in store. Also I never funded any kickstarter project and wont do with this one. But still mildly interested
I'm all for Brad making a MMO. The guy can't get a second chance? He's admitted wrong in regards to VG, blogged about what went wrong, and what he should of done. I wish I could say I succeeded 100% of time my first try at things..
Keep in mind.. there isn't exactly a line of Dev's stepping up to make an old school mmo. So you might not like it but at least he's willing to try.. I highly doubt he's looking to tarnish his name again. I think the guy just wants another crack at making a MMO. I'm glad he's back and creating a new game. Can't wait for his KS. Beauty of this is you don't have to support or play it.. Your loss=P
If someone else is making all the business decisions, setting realistic goals and timelines, then I'm in. Brad needs someone to keep him in line. If he is in charge of everything, then this still might work. Who knows, maybe he learned from his mistakes. I'm just not willing to bet my hard earned money on that.
At least Brad's failure was due to cut of funding and not due to game-design aspect.
By "cut of funding," do you mean feature creep, mismanagement, and absentee leadership?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
At least Brad's failure was due to cut of funding and not due to game-design aspect.
By "cut of funding," do you mean feature creep, mismanagement, and absentee leadership?
He had his chance to make a spiritual successor to EQ and couldn't make it happen. Anyone who played Vanguard at launch knows that this game wasn't weeks or a month or two from done it needed to be delayed from launch for 6-12 months at least. Can you really blame Microsoft for pulling the plug at that point? At the end of the day he was the one making those decisions and he was the one responsible for making it work on time and budget and failed at that.
As for SOE I have never understood why they saved this game. 1-2 hours in game was enough to show just how much work was left to fix this thing and there was nothing for them to gain by stepping in. I don't know if they did it out of a personal relationship, if they got misrepresented on what they where getting or if they had some grand ideas for fixing it but I think within 2-3 weeks of launch it was clear any ideas of doing more than trying to keep the thing afloat was not realistic without sinking significant resources into it.
I'll keep a eye on his project and might play it at launch but no early adopter for me. Let me ask you this, If Brad McQuaid couldn't manage the resources given to him by a company like Microsoft properly what makes you think he would manage them from something like kickstarter which is much less organized?
Does a modern Old School game sound interesting to me? Yes.
Is my interest enough to want to help fund it? No.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
At least Brad's failure was due to cut of funding and not due to game-design aspect.
By "cut of funding," do you mean feature creep, mismanagement, and absentee leadership?
I meant Microsoft bailing on him after going with Console Only approach just after that.
This change by Microsoft happened after a big change in their management structure and his mistake was not to put every agreement in writing (amateur mistake).
Every publisher who tried an MMO failed one way or another. Most of them failed a lot more than Sigil's project. At least Brad managed to release a functional game (yes, clunky engine and crappy performance). But I DID play Vanguard for a few months and the only reason that made me quit was the lack of content at mid-high levels at the time.
Saying that; I don't like Vanguard as a game as much as a I like EQ. To me Vanguard was more like WoW than it is like EQ.
This project died as soon as they said Brad McQuaid was leading the creative design. Here are a few things to consider.
- Everquest: If people take off the rose colored glasses and looked at the game objectively they would understand the game really wasn't all that good. IN YOUR OPINION. It had good parts and a lot of bad parts like 30 minute boat rides and week long mob camps. (I see nothing wrong with long travel.. In fact it was one of the better parts of the game I enjoyed.. run baby run.. unless you were a druid or wizzie.. I loved my druid) Later on the game became even more punishing with a raid until you pass out at the keyboard mentality. How is this the games fault? Did SOE force you to raid for 8 hours per night? I raided at ToV and loved it.. My guild allowed people to come and go as they pleased, and we adjusted DK points accordingly.. Everquest in many ways gave old school thinking a bad name. Ultra hard core expansions like Planes of Power and Gates of Discord would fuel the exodus of players out of Everquest and into WoW. This I do agree.. the expansion of PoP was the start of mass exodus.. At this point EQ was no longer EQ.. I cancelled shortly after PoP..
EverQuest 2: This was supposed to be SoE's answer to WoW as a mass market MMO. Brad McQuaid played a significant role in the early design of this game. EQ2 suffered from a number of poor design decisions such as shared xp debt and corpse runs. The over land zones were 95% group content and soloing was limited to a few key areas. In some ways it was worse than the original Everquest. It is like they were saying we want our game to fail. They just handed WoW the crown. Agreed.. Original EQ2 release turned me off in a couple months.. It was too punitive, to forced.. I didn't feel any sense of freedom and choice..
- Vanguard: Game was a complete and total failure until SoE fixed it. The most important fix was removing all of Brad McQuaid's influence over the game. His ideas of what a game should be were completely horrible and needed to go. I beta tested it and it was so bad during beta, I withdrew from beta and never played the game.. First impression was horrible..
However, as much as I'm hesitant with Brad, I'll wait till I see a finished product before condemning him..
At least Brad's failure was due to cut of funding and not due to game-design aspect.
By "cut of funding," do you mean feature creep, mismanagement, and absentee leadership?
I meant Microsoft bailing on him after going with Console Only approach just after that.
This change by Microsoft happened after a big change in their management structure and his mistake was not to put every agreement in writing (amateur mistake).
Every publisher who tried an MMO failed one way or another. Most of them failed a lot more than Sigil's project. At least Brad managed to release a functional game (yes, clunky engine and crappy performance). But I DID play Vanguard for a few months and the only reason that made me quit was the lack of content at mid-high levels at the time.
Saying that; I don't like Vanguard as a game as much as a I like EQ. To me Vanguard was more like WoW than it is like EQ.
Yes, Brad, did try pitching the blame at Microsoft, but you'll notice he has since deleted those blog entries.
I looked for the original f13 threads and couldn't find them, but I did find a decent overview of the debacle here. Microsoft cutting ties had little to do with the failure, as it was already a sinking ship before they left.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm assuming by old school he means taking all the mechanics from old school MMOs, including spawn camping, traditional (AKA boring) slow combat, lack of convenience in game systems, and ridiculously long grinds. If he means anything other than copying and pasting EQ's mechanics I'd be interested. There are some things in old school MMOs I'd love to see in modern MMOs, but I don't want all the GOOD things modern MMOs have brought over the past generation to be ignored either.
Just wanted to stop in and say thank you to everyone who responded in this thread and gave feedback. Polling numbers are interesting and a reasonably diverse, too.
Seems like there is quite a bit of animosity towards Brad McQuaid as I expected. At the same time, there is also significant support for him as well. And there is also some strong support for the genre.
Looking forward to more details on this project when it is officially announced.
high fantasy- that does sound more up my street than these current mmos. But I guess if it's going to be 4 years time, it's a bit of a long wait for that.
You people a BRUTAL! Give the guy a fucking chance! No one is perfect and to be honest he's done more with his life than most if not all of you passing judgement on him. So he had a drug problem, do you know how many people strugle with that? I don't care if the guy shoots up every day just deliver a good old school MMO the rest is no ones business.
This project died as soon as they said Brad McQuaid was leading the creative design. Here are a few things to consider.
- Everquest: If people take off the rose colored glasses and looked at the game objectively they would understand the game really wasn't all that good. It had good parts and a lot of bad parts like 30 minute boat rides and week long mob camps. Later on the game became even more punishing with a raid until you pass out at the keyboard mentality. Everquest in many ways gave old school thinking a bad name. Ultra hard core expansions like Planes of Power and Gates of Discord would fuel the exodus of players out of Everquest and into WoW.
EverQuest 2: This was supposed to be SoE's answer to WoW as a mass market MMO. Brad McQuaid played a significant role in the early design of this game. EQ2 suffered from a number of poor design decisions such as shared xp debt and corpse runs. The over land zones were 95% group content and soloing was limited to a few key areas. In some ways it was worse than the original Everquest. It is like they were saying we want our game to fail. They just handed WoW the crown.
- Vanguard: Game was a complete and total failure until SoE fixed it. The most important fix was removing all of Brad McQuaid's influence over the game. His ideas of what a game should be were completely horrible and needed to go.
The amount of ignorance in this post is mind boggling. Clearly done by a person who played all of 0 of those games and is basing his opinions on the standard BS that gets thrown about. I particularly like how EQ2 was soe's answer to WOW, considering they came out the same month and EQ2 was in development before WOW. But hey, you know, whatever.
BTW, i'm not going to take the time respond in detail why this post is just wrong on a billion points, because 1. It won't really matter, and 2. I will probably get another reprimand for being too vulgar or something.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
This project died as soon as they said Brad McQuaid was leading the creative design. Here are a few things to consider.
- Everquest: If people take off the rose colored glasses and looked at the game objectively they would understand the game really wasn't all that good. It had good parts and a lot of bad parts like 30 minute boat rides and week long mob camps. Later on the game became even more punishing with a raid until you pass out at the keyboard mentality. Everquest in many ways gave old school thinking a bad name. Ultra hard core expansions like Planes of Power and Gates of Discord would fuel the exodus of players out of Everquest and into WoW.
EverQuest 2: This was supposed to be SoE's answer to WoW as a mass market MMO. Brad McQuaid played a significant role in the early design of this game. EQ2 suffered from a number of poor design decisions such as shared xp debt and corpse runs. The over land zones were 95% group content and soloing was limited to a few key areas. In some ways it was worse than the original Everquest. It is like they were saying we want our game to fail. They just handed WoW the crown.
- Vanguard: Game was a complete and total failure until SoE fixed it. The most important fix was removing all of Brad McQuaid's influence over the game. His ideas of what a game should be were completely horrible and needed to go.
The amount of ignorance in this post is mind boggling. Clearly done by a person who played all of 0 of those games and is basing his opinions on the standard BS that gets thrown about. I particularly like how EQ2 was soe's answer to WOW, considering they came out the same month and EQ2 was in development before WOW. But hey, you know, whatever.
BTW, i'm not going to take the time respond in detail why this post is just wrong on a billion points, because 1. It won't really matter, and 2. I will probably get another reprimand for being too vulgar or something.
Lol, you are right, seems he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.
Just the fact he doesn't know that EQ2 was out before WOW says it all.
This project died as soon as they said Brad McQuaid was leading the creative design. Here are a few things to consider.
- Everquest: If people take off the rose colored glasses and looked at the game objectively they would understand the game really wasn't all that good. It had good parts and a lot of bad parts like 30 minute boat rides and week long mob camps. Later on the game became even more punishing with a raid until you pass out at the keyboard mentality. Everquest in many ways gave old school thinking a bad name. Ultra hard core expansions like Planes of Power and Gates of Discord would fuel the exodus of players out of Everquest and into WoW.
EverQuest 2: This was supposed to be SoE's answer to WoW as a mass market MMO. Brad McQuaid played a significant role in the early design of this game. EQ2 suffered from a number of poor design decisions such as shared xp debt and corpse runs. The over land zones were 95% group content and soloing was limited to a few key areas. In some ways it was worse than the original Everquest. It is like they were saying we want our game to fail. They just handed WoW the crown.
- Vanguard: Game was a complete and total failure until SoE fixed it. The most important fix was removing all of Brad McQuaid's influence over the game. His ideas of what a game should be were completely horrible and needed to go.
Not gonna lie i kinda liked the 30 minute boat rides and longer travel times than nowaday games. Atleast the world felt large cause of those travel times unlike nowaday games which feel so so small.
Originally posted by Novusod This project died as soon as they said Brad McQuaid was leading the creative design. Here are a few things to consider.- Everquest: If people take off the rose colored glasses and looked at the game objectively they would understand the game really wasn't all that good. It had good parts and a lot of bad parts like 30 minute boat rides and week long mob camps. Later on the game became even more punishing with a raid until you pass out at the keyboard mentality. Everquest in many ways gave old school thinking a bad name. Ultra hard core expansions like Planes of Power and Gates of Discord would fuel the exodus of players out of Everquest and into WoW.EverQuest 2: This was supposed to be SoE's answer to WoW as a mass market MMO. Brad McQuaid played a significant role in the early design of this game. EQ2 suffered from a number of poor design decisions such as shared xp debt and corpse runs. The over land zones were 95% group content and soloing was limited to a few key areas. In some ways it was worse than the original Everquest. It is like they were saying we want our game to fail. They just handed WoW the crown.- Vanguard: Game was a complete and total failure until SoE fixed it. The most important fix was removing all of Brad McQuaid's influence over the game. His ideas of what a game should be were completely horrible and needed to go.
The amount of ignorance in this post is mind boggling. Clearly done by a person who played all of 0 of those games and is basing his opinions on the standard BS that gets thrown about. I particularly like how EQ2 was soe's answer to WOW, considering they came out the same month and EQ2 was in development before WOW. But hey, you know, whatever.
BTW, i'm not going to take the time respond in detail why this post is just wrong on a billion points, because 1. It won't really matter, and 2. I will probably get another reprimand for being too vulgar or something.
Boy, you nailed it. This post is all mindless drivel. I'll tell you something though son, back in the day, walking around with a full set of Donals armour, showing off my cleric epic that took 25days of coordinated camping by me and my guild was awesome!. It told people not only was I a cleric but a dam good one that had the support of a ton of people. What game does that now?
"Brad McQuaid will (at minimum) play at important role" What's he going to do at maximum, make the game on his own?
I wish them every success mind you, it will be interesting to see how spiritual successors compare to EQNext which is made in the same game universe. Nobody is doing a sequel to EQ, to me they just seem to be using that games good name to hype their new game.
Comments
i dont.
primarily because the investors in an old school mmo are the same investors who know Mcquaid's past history. this muddies the waters and makes the KS campaign more about Mcquaid and less about an old school mmo.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
me too
If someone else is making all the business decisions, setting realistic goals and timelines, then I'm in. Brad needs someone to keep him in line. If he is in charge of everything, then this still might work. Who knows, maybe he learned from his mistakes. I'm just not willing to bet my hard earned money on that.
Either way, I wish him nothing but the best.
Those of you blaming Brad's failure act as if every other publisher who took their chance to create an MMO didn't fail miserably too?
Zillions of failed projects that most of them didn't even launch.
Those behind big publishers also failed to deliver.
At least Brad's failure was due to cut of funding and not due to game-design aspect.
I'm going to wait to see his kickstarter page and then decide whether to back him up or not. But I can say that there's a big chance I will.
By "cut of funding," do you mean feature creep, mismanagement, and absentee leadership?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
He had his chance to make a spiritual successor to EQ and couldn't make it happen. Anyone who played Vanguard at launch knows that this game wasn't weeks or a month or two from done it needed to be delayed from launch for 6-12 months at least. Can you really blame Microsoft for pulling the plug at that point? At the end of the day he was the one making those decisions and he was the one responsible for making it work on time and budget and failed at that.
As for SOE I have never understood why they saved this game. 1-2 hours in game was enough to show just how much work was left to fix this thing and there was nothing for them to gain by stepping in. I don't know if they did it out of a personal relationship, if they got misrepresented on what they where getting or if they had some grand ideas for fixing it but I think within 2-3 weeks of launch it was clear any ideas of doing more than trying to keep the thing afloat was not realistic without sinking significant resources into it.
I'll keep a eye on his project and might play it at launch but no early adopter for me. Let me ask you this, If Brad McQuaid couldn't manage the resources given to him by a company like Microsoft properly what makes you think he would manage them from something like kickstarter which is much less organized?
Does a modern Old School game sound interesting to me? Yes.
Is my interest enough to want to help fund it? No.
I meant Microsoft bailing on him after going with Console Only approach just after that.
This change by Microsoft happened after a big change in their management structure and his mistake was not to put every agreement in writing (amateur mistake).
Every publisher who tried an MMO failed one way or another. Most of them failed a lot more than Sigil's project. At least Brad managed to release a functional game (yes, clunky engine and crappy performance). But I DID play Vanguard for a few months and the only reason that made me quit was the lack of content at mid-high levels at the time.
Saying that; I don't like Vanguard as a game as much as a I like EQ. To me Vanguard was more like WoW than it is like EQ.
However, as much as I'm hesitant with Brad, I'll wait till I see a finished product before condemning him..
Yes, Brad, did try pitching the blame at Microsoft, but you'll notice he has since deleted those blog entries.
I looked for the original f13 threads and couldn't find them, but I did find a decent overview of the debacle here. Microsoft cutting ties had little to do with the failure, as it was already a sinking ship before they left.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You mean, unsubstantiated rumors posted by an angry fan site host? You're really using THAT?
You believe, THAT?
What IS fact is that Vanguard launched 8 MONTHS earlier than originally agreed upon, the same week as Burning Crusade. How could it NOT have failed?
And Brad's failure of a game still stands shoulders above other's triumphs.
Just wanted to stop in and say thank you to everyone who responded in this thread and gave feedback. Polling numbers are interesting and a reasonably diverse, too.
Seems like there is quite a bit of animosity towards Brad McQuaid as I expected. At the same time, there is also significant support for him as well. And there is also some strong support for the genre.
Looking forward to more details on this project when it is officially announced.
high fantasy- that does sound more up my street than these current mmos. But I guess if it's going to be 4 years time, it's a bit of a long wait for that.
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Huh, that's not what Mr. G. W. Bush said now, was it
The amount of ignorance in this post is mind boggling. Clearly done by a person who played all of 0 of those games and is basing his opinions on the standard BS that gets thrown about. I particularly like how EQ2 was soe's answer to WOW, considering they came out the same month and EQ2 was in development before WOW. But hey, you know, whatever.
BTW, i'm not going to take the time respond in detail why this post is just wrong on a billion points, because 1. It won't really matter, and 2. I will probably get another reprimand for being too vulgar or something.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Lol, you are right, seems he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.
Just the fact he doesn't know that EQ2 was out before WOW says it all.
Not gonna lie i kinda liked the 30 minute boat rides and longer travel times than nowaday games. Atleast the world felt large cause of those travel times unlike nowaday games which feel so so small.
The amount of ignorance in this post is mind boggling. Clearly done by a person who played all of 0 of those games and is basing his opinions on the standard BS that gets thrown about. I particularly like how EQ2 was soe's answer to WOW, considering they came out the same month and EQ2 was in development before WOW. But hey, you know, whatever.
BTW, i'm not going to take the time respond in detail why this post is just wrong on a billion points, because 1. It won't really matter, and 2. I will probably get another reprimand for being too vulgar or something.
Boy, you nailed it. This post is all mindless drivel. I'll tell you something though son, back in the day, walking around with a full set of Donals armour, showing off my cleric epic that took 25days of coordinated camping by me and my guild was awesome!. It told people not only was I a cleric but a dam good one that had the support of a ton of people.What game does that now?
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
"Brad McQuaid will (at minimum) play at important role" What's he going to do at maximum, make the game on his own?
I wish them every success mind you, it will be interesting to see how spiritual successors compare to EQNext which is made in the same game universe. Nobody is doing a sequel to EQ, to me they just seem to be using that games good name to hype their new game.