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Reasons for Perma Death
Codec_D
Member UncommonPosts: 23
Below is a linked video Q&A with the developers of ToA starting off with "Why Perma-Death"
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If I had to give my own reasons why permadeath is key to this game, I would have to say 'immersion' and 'balance'.
With immersion, you're forced to be more aware of the world around you. You need to always check your surroundings so you don't accidentally attract something that might kill you or make you extremely vulnerable. You also rely on your surroundings so that you are better hidden and not able to be seen from far away. Because of these factors, you ultimately are more immersed in the world, you become more familiar with the scenery and the sounds that come with it. I think other games still do this without permadeath but I think it is permadeath itself that forces you to become even more immersed in a much greater way.
I find balance to be a big benefit of permadeath. Someone might ask "How does permadeath create balance?" which is a valid question which ultimately needs to be tested in the game of course but we aren't there yet. So to speculate, I would see balance a result of permadeath simply because of risk/reward and consequences. A group of people deciding to run around and grief people but they aren't invincible because there is the possibility of attracting a raknar or a group of them. Now they are vulnerable. Or perhaps several people decide to group up and get rid of them. Or someone in the grief-group dies, they respawn with nothing which means they need to run back to their corpse (assuming nobody looted it) and the group needs to protect the corpse until he gets back. So as we can see, griefers won't have it easy. There are many other factors that play into this as well, primarily the reputation system as well.
So this is why I think permadeath is something needed and something that makes the game even greater.
Real permadeath and online just don't mix. Either the game is built such that you can kill your connection to avoid death or it is built such that any time your have an internet hiccup you have to start over. It is just too frustrating to most of the player base.
Some sort of modified permadeath works though I'd say that it isn't really permadeath at that point~.
This has been taken into account with regards to permadeath which is why you have 100 lives and not just 1.
As for poor internet connection, disconnects, lag, etc - this is something outside of the control of the game. Yes , they can do some things but ultimately this boils down to the individual users ISP, internet speed, computer strength, etc.
Also keep in mind that this all needs testing. It is certainly possible that maybe 200 lives is more appropriate for the game or maybe just 50. All of this comes with testing.
I'm a little confused as to why you posted that, in the context of this thread it doesn't make sense?
did you listen to the video in op?
Why would gankers give a rats ass about dying?
They don't give a crap about consequences! I swear half the people asking for these type of games live in LaLa land.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
LOL Codec why don't you tell us what you got from that little snippet that is supposed to be so worthwhile you had to make yet another permadeath post about it?
Cmon enlighten us all smart guy!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
It was taken down two weeks early for a different approach. If there were any reasons as to why it didn't become successful quickly, the main one would be poor PR.
This opinion is based on...what? Few if any games aim to do what TOA attempts. You also need to look at permadeath as part of the larger picture of game systems.
A lot of negative reactions are based on experience with MMOs that have half-cocked PVP where you can run around with 100 sets of replacement armor in your bank and 317 scrolls of teleportation in your backpack.
Give up those old notions.
Its based on observations of human behaviour in games over a too long a period of time. I have no problem with permadeath. And I have no problem with Open PvP. But if you put those two together in a game it is guaranteed recipe for disaster.
I am still waiting to hear what was said in that couch session that was so exciting, we had to make a post about it. All I got from it is that somehow by dying permanently you have made your mark in the game? How is that? By having a permanent gravestone?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
TROLOLOL
Before I even get into the subject of Perma-death, I didn't see any other Perma-death thread's and considering I did see posts about people being turned off about the feature for reasons that I saw were actually addressed, so I put out an easy to source of info on the subject. This is my first post on the subject of perma-death, so I'll assume your "yet another" remark was poor communication skills on your part.
WELLL since you asked so kindly Mr. Boneserino, Bear with me and try to keep your attention span alive, yes, permadeath by its self is a horrible feature which probably has no place in 99% of MMO's currently.
Could you imagine that in Darkfall or Eve? However in Trials of Ascension, a game designed around perma-death, which by the way isn't even true perma-death so the brutalities of one and done that you're touching on don't exist, we have a modified version of this, the life counter. You Don't die instantly, but eventually if you consistently take the risk of death and fuck up a lot, you'll be finished and have to start anew. The benefit of that is a higher value on one's achievements and actions which brings about a whole other set of factors affecting player game play: high level players don't own the game but instead have even more to lose, farming potential is decreased due to overall risk increase, and blah blah blah it's great
But hey! that's not what you're talking about, gankers, those guys who love to fuck other people's days up, or clans trying to gain the edge, or whoever what have you people in general abusing the system either loading their characters up with enough to do some hurt or sending waves of loincloth meat shields. Welp, if they're really abusing the game mechanics, they'll get taken care of by say GM's like any game but that's a sad and lame fall back however it's there to fall back on. The game's design takes care of that, it's a phantom issue, meaning it doesn't actually exist. Hell there's a race one could play that are actually just gankers at their core, the Raknar.
You can sneak around at night, NPC guards, the reputation system, players banding together, naked players will die nigh instantly, resources are "finite", said ganker has their own perma-death, chance of running into a ganker more than once or to the point it becomes an issue is slim due to land size and lack of mini-map or in other words having to memorize a zone, P2P will limit how many grief gankers we'll have, reasons can go on and I've typed a bit, the point is your point is more of a hypochondriac's.
if you're not a pvper or don't like open pvp then this game might not be for you. Here's a nice, and pretty long, post regarding what i'm saying if you want another view point on perma-death. http://trialsofascension.com/forum/threads/terrible-features-great-game.2123/
Unless the game is P2P, the game is going to have a P2W cash shop as it needs revenue of some kind to sustain it. Wizardry Online is one example.
Open World PvP is a niche group, and a permadeath is a niche of a niche group. If it wants to be successful then it needs to be where one can relatively quickly raise to level cap and max out like in Path of Exile, that or allow a store item where they can reset their death counters or reduce it which pretty much defeats the purpose of a permadeath system. I doubt this game will get the support it needs just because permadeath is so niche. A risk vs reward system is the ideal system where one's character does not get deleted after X deaths.
Having only a little over 11% of the funding requested after over halfway speaks for itself, and PR has nothing to do with this abysmal response of backers. Doubt their 2nd attempt will end much differently.
Permadeath simply does not mesh well with any MMOs that requires considerable time investment into a character. Best of luck with their effort but doubt they will get the reception they want or need.
I'm not sure how you arrived at "Open world PvP is a niche group". Nearly every game coming out in 2014 is featuring open world PvP, which includes big names like EQN, CU and TESO which I think makes your credibility very lacking.
As for its kickstarter cancellation - unless you were part of the kickstarter campaign or part of the community itself, you would know that the cancellation is ENTIRELY due to lack of PR. Someone like yourself looking at the situation from an OUTSIDE perspective with your own preconceived ideas of permadeath and the kickstarter progress, would have no idea.
Like what codec_d said, Permadeath alone is a terrible feature but combined with all of the other features that are in ToA, it becomes an incredible compliment.
The game IS planned to be P2P with systems similar to eve.
You're right, in a way. Any mmo that requires you to grind, or invest long boring amounts of time, in order to play that game with other's to the full extent would probably see the majority of it's players dislike a system in which they had to start over every time they messed up in PVP. Since the very nature of PVP always has a winner and a loser.
Your rhetoric doesn't really fit in this context though. ToA was designed around PVP and perma-death and rather than state everything i said earlier to address that I'll leave it there.
Your assumptions and insinuations about the 11% funding are pretty grandiose, I highly doubt you an expert on business or marketing effectiveness to be attempting statements like that. A significant amount of kickstarter and indiegogo projects have seen over half of their funding reached within the last week. Games that have vastly surpassed their goals had vastly different approaches to their PR campaigns. I for one didn't even know about the game until recently. I feel, without sitting down and doing the statistical work and formula predictions, that had FC reached a larger audience and effectively conveyed their product they could have easily reached their goal. They had more than a few high dollar investments, i don't think those were radical niche investors.
The fact I consistently see responses of uninformed people shows how FC does, in fact, need to work on their PR or people need to read more.
Lets put the past behind us and get on with discussing the game then. My apologies as I wasn't exactly sure where this thread was going as there seemed precious little info in your OP. Also for some reason, the permadeath in this game I attributed to the game " Path of Exile". Got my games mixed up but hey, I am not the sharpest as you mentioned.
My initial reaction to this idea was that it should not be called permadeath. True the character dies, but its more of a real life death over time scenario. I think its a great idea, but using the term permadeath gives it a pretty bad connotation. Something like limited lifespan describes it better.
As for the ganking aspect, I reviewed the flagging and reputation features. Quite interesting. At least that should take some of the randomness out of it, as it creates more risk for the gankee. However, as you PvP guys say , ganking is part of the game.
Trying to picture as to how I myself, a non PvP player would approach this game. Certainly from a crafting aspect. I realize that even still I would be required to PvP on occasion, and then the question becomes: Do I have a reasonable chance of survival?
Without a reasonable chance of lets say evading death, (not just defeating someone) I would expect my life to be rather short in the game. If the average player has a reasonable chance of surviving ( ie: fights last more than 5 seconds, evasive skills etc.) then this game might have enough appeal to get some of the middle of the roaders who like sandboxes and maybe dabble in a bit of PvP, to get involved. Because unfortunately that is what these games need in these times. Something with hardcore aspects that can still appeal to a broader audience. That will bring in the $'s and other companies might take notice.
Sorry I got off on the word permadeath, but with regards to PR and this game, permadeath is word I would not be too hasty to throw around. I see a lot to like here, and permadeath doesn't really apply to it in the way most assume. A lot of good features are described. Still remains to be seen if they can make the game tho. Thnx for turning my head. I want to keep an eye on this one.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Not everyone will be a winenr always, there are losers in this game. It isn't like peewee baseball where everyone gets a star. The death of a great character in ToA is part of the game, they become immortalized. The death's also give everything it's value, magic is op in this game but extremely hard to get, even more so with the life counter so it balances. Guilds no longer rule forever once they get to the top, constantly increasing numbers isn't the number one factor anymore.
This isn't to say it cuts out the crafter, everywhere isn't a high chance of death. There is just now a bigger reward for those who risk it for the biscuit.
The point is losing is part the of the game, losing is fun. Making a new character is supposed to be a part of the game, unless you play in such a way that you live till old age.
I apologize for the sharpest tool comment, I honestly didn't mean that as a direct insult. I was just being sarcastic, my attempts at humor at not the greatest
I agree entirely with the name perma-death not accurately fitting the description. It's an ugly word and that doesn't really fit here. As for the ganking, yes that is apart of the game, seeking the kill is an aspect that'll probably be followed often. Griefing though, is inherently discouraged through the game mechanics.
Honestly for a crafter, the chance of risking pvp will be required at some point i believe. It's entirely possible though for a crafter to never experience anything but PVE, or even keep their belongings after their last death, clans holding onto things and the such. A character's skills are easily replaceable and if that becomes a burden then the game itself just isn't fun.
You are totally correct though in saying it remains to be seen if the game can even be made or if everything will work in practice.
Risk/Reward gameplay leads to higher, most satisfying gaming experience, at least for me. In games where there are no consequences for losing, victory does not feel like anything, which is the state of most themeparks today. EVE Online seems to be the only big, AAA-tier exception.
Hopefully ToA will be made someday too and we'll get our medieval high fantasy equivalent to Eve.
Gaming since 1985; Online gaming since 1995; No End in Sight! My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8POVoJ8fdOseuJ4U1ZX-oA
The developers are definitely awesome guys. They really work hard to get the features right and are very open to feedback and new ideas.
The moment they open non-PD servers is the moment the PD servers become abundant.
I have not decided yet if I'd give PD a try yet, it's just my observation from 50+ MMOs that the majority always takes the easier route.
All this talk about giving a sense of whatever and what not about perma death is really .... not sure how to put it without being rude ... hmm ............... un-thoughtful to say the least.
Ok, I am playing the game and my 6 months old boy suddenly screams out. I run to attend to him and guess what .... my super duper char got killed by a tiny little monster. Ohh gg me
Or somebody rings the doorbell and you went to answer the door ... come back to the PC and ... you got some1 killed .... GG.
Same for lags and so on.
It wont work out so well if the company aims to have a lot of people playing the game. Might do well if they want a small group of people who can dedicate 100% of their time to the game when they are playing.
lol rumors has it that they are adding non permadeath servers. but like i said rumors