The perception is just that a companies making it more difficult for the playerbase to progress, regardless of how it might make the game, 'better', overall..
Exactly. To me, its sounds just like an excuse to slow down people and add another grind to the game.
What rubbish.
EXAMPLE:
There is a great chest lying on the top of the Hill.
Surrounding the Hill are 2 tribes with mobs and 2 wandering Elites.
No mount: You must overcome the challenge with the specs of your class: like Stealth (rogue), pull a small corridor (hunter, mage) or brute force (warrior, paladin) and stay out of the way of the Elites.
Mount: You mount, you fly to the top; open chest.
EVERY time Blizzard does something good and great to bring challenge you have these idiots moaning.... about anything really.
And ... 4 months later ....in patch 6.1 .... and when everyone has had their main or second character leveled through, yep you can fly...
So the professional whiners --- as Always --- lost every discussion already.
You lack imagination. Someone has already mentioned adding in flying enemies, aerial combat. That's not as easy to develop as just removing flying.
I'm with Omnifish & Mr Picard on this one. It's a feeble attempt to make their content seem longer and more challenging, and the feeble minded fall for it.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus The solution is never found in taking things away... Just add enemies in the sky.
^
Best solution imo. Add mounted combat to that then you might have an interesting expansion.
Even without mounted combat that could work. Don't want people flying over an area? Add hostile dragons flying around. Or cannons that shoot you down. Or even have an impenetrable force field you need to tunnel under.
So many better ways than just blocking off the skill then unlocking it at the new level cap. I mean it kinda made sense in Wrath, when they explained it as cold weather flight. But Pandaria made no sense whatsoever. At least the timeless isle kind of tried to explain it, but then ruined it by having flying creatures all over the island.
Its just lazy design.
In Everquest 2 when they opened up the second part of Velious, they had a hostile dragon flying around who knocked people out of the sky if you tried to fly. At the end of the questline you pacify the dragon and it no longer harasses you. Same effect, but far better implementation.
Even without mounted combat that could work. Don't want people flying over an area? Add hostile dragons flying around. Or cannons that shoot you down. Or even have an impenetrable force field you need to tunnel under.
That sort of thing has been in the game for as long as there has been flying. There were several areas in BC where you could get shot down (forge camps near Ogri'la, for instance, both cannons that can shot you down and a dragon that will nuke you) and pretty much every town and city has air defenses.
Even without mounted combat that could work. Don't want people flying over an area? Add hostile dragons flying around. Or cannons that shoot you down. Or even have an impenetrable force field you need to tunnel under.
That sort of thing has been in the game for as long as there has been flying. There were several areas in BC where you could get shot down (forge camps near Ogri'la, for instance, both cannons that can shot you down and a dragon that will nuke you) and pretty much every town and city has air defenses.
That's what you get when people post about things they have no clue about.
Whine to get attention while not even knowing the game mechanics.
Typical for this place. Whine to whine without even active playing the things.
The perception is just that a companies making it more difficult for the playerbase to progress, regardless of how it might make the game, 'better', overall..
Exactly. To me, its sounds just like an excuse to slow down people and add another grind to the game.
It could be to draw out content. It could be to push pvp as well.
EQ2 still has flying mounts in end game zones. You have to get down into the the content in order to get the goodies. Maybe WoW is designed differently, but the EQ2 devs don't generally put fat loot chests naked on the top of a hill where you can swoop in and grab it. Is this common in WoW or was that just a "what if" scare scenario?
EQ2 has no open world flying except in some end game zones. Is this common in EQ2 to boast about things they ... dont have ?
Typical. Wake me up when you guys finally get seamless dynamic phasing and open world travel without zoning.
And make the thousands of flying mounts some people collected over the years, some of which are very hard to get rares, obsolete? If you believe that, you and me don't live in the same kind of reality.
Dude, you are talking about reality when you are way over your head into WoW.....a pixel game.
I fear for you when they announce the closure of WOW X-years from now, what will you do with your thousands of pets you 'worked' for all those years.
Fact remains, Blizzard is a company, that needs money, you ppl generate it, and if you log in and "fly" around doing all content in 1 week and then crash after 1 month being bored OR do the same expansion in 3 months and generate 3x $$$ for them, what do you expect they will do?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Like some of the other posters, I'm done with WoW and have been for some time (since the beginning of CATA).
The only mistake Blizz made with flying was the way the implemented it. Flying for the sake of getting from Point A to Point B, is a mistake. They should have implemented mounted combat, more no-fly zones, and flight based objectives. Instead, they turned the game into a dive in, kill the single mob you need, mount and fly out game.
On the other hand, it did open up the world a little bit and allows them to place things in the sky. So it isn't a total waste.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
all this entire thread sounds like to me is a bunch of angry old men arguing over if a game is "Easy mode" or not. Blizzard did a lot with flying adding in plenty of easter eggs and it did not make exploration at all trivial. There was tons of places in old world you couldnt get to without flying and it made exploration fun when it first came out in cata. If some of you guys think having to run through trains of mobs to get some place constitutes "fun" then you do not know majority of the playerbase that pays blizzards bills. I could really care less if it has flying or not in this expansion allowed from the start but accusing the playerbase on their forums for bitching and moaning is funny at best when all this thread consists of is a bunch of old angry ex wow players bitching and moaning about how the game is soooooo easy mode and ruined because of flying.
first, the OP seems to think this is Blizz changing their minds on making content easily obtainable, when in fact, its simply Blizz reiterating that they will be doing the same thing they do with every xpac and make flying an endgame activity in the new zone. the only difference here is they have recognized that a slew of people reach max level within a day of release and are flying by day two, if not sooner. so, Blizz has put off flying until the first big patch to the xpac.
that is the only thing that has changed. this particular set of posts is not evidence that Blizz is making an overall design move to more difficult content.
secondly, we get to witness the unimaginative approach to content they have held since day one. rather than asking why players are trying to avoid entertainment content for which they will have paid 50+USD, they have decided to strong arm them into it.
they make it clear in their post that putting off flying is for one reason - to make players consume content they don't want to consume. so rather than try to fix that content, or try to make it more entertaining, they remove flying.
what would it have cost to make flying an integral part of the content? or to make it so difficult to fly that only the best flyers and strategizers could get through the air mostly unscathed?
to include the flying mechanic in the game design instead of treating it like an addendum might have resolved some of these questions.
none of what i have said is addressing whether flying should have ever been introduced or not. that's a done deal, its over. the real question is what are you going to do with your design decision now that it is considered a core mechanic. and current players do see it as such.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
wake me up when they remove 4-5 years of instant gratification mechanics and maybe i'll care. flying mounts? pfffft .. who cares? faceroll solo quest grinding is faceroll solo quest grinding with or without flying mounts.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by LadyPvP I liked the game more when there was no flying.
Yeah, same reason why GW2 failed quite badly for me in the end. It does not feel like an immersive world where you adventure when you just click somewhere and appear there. Flying is not quite the same thing but it's in the same league imo.
WoW's world became a lot smaller place after flying everywhere was allowed. It creates at least some immersion when you actually have to spend a moment to get somewhere, and when you get back from that place it feels like you actually were somewhere.
Agreed. WoW before flying felt more immersive, but i wouldn't want to get rid of flying altogether. Some zones are good for it. As for GW2, i agree. I never liked the instant teleportation. They went too extreme for convenience. There needs to be a balance for traveling.
I mainly agree with OP. But still think that best solution was in wotlk where one needed at least one maxed out alt to be able to buy fly book and sent to his own alts. It looks to me good compromise.
the funny thing is there will still be level 91 bots flying around farming ore, just like there were in MoP.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I'm glad they are thinking of getting rid of flying mounts. I hope the reaction from the playerbase is great when WoD comes; hopefully this 'no-flight' experiment will prove to be successful-maybe Blizzard won't add it back!
flying mounts are a huge part of wow and I think flying, more than any other feature, is what they have to thank for the games popularity and longevity. The devs post.. not a good idea at all. While leveling it is totally understandable of course, but making the flying/no flying choice based on nostalgia, how great it was to unlock flying the first time and trying to recreate that feeling? that is a terrible idea- we already did that! re-rewarding people with something they already worked for and already earned isn't going to go well.
making the timeless isle flightless didn't achieve what they were going for anyway. people still ignore everything and stampede their way through to get to the next rare mob coming up. They need to stop treating flying like a problem. It may be inconvenient to design a game around, but its also the single biggest feature of WoW that none of its copycats have ever managed to recreate. I don't think its a coincidence that none of them have managed to come close to WoW's success. I think its simple- the average player loves flying and hates being annoyed constantly by mobs while trying to travel around. Screw with this and you might be killing the golden goose.
No big deal! So you'll have to wait a few weeks to dive bomb resources and other players. It'll go by quick!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
The solution is never found in taking things away...
just add ennemies in the sky, the longer you fly, the bigger the chance that they get to you and throw you of your mount plummetting to certain death and making the mount useless for a few hours.
And add safe flying zones, i.e. If you are high enough level, you cant be thrown of your mount, and even higher level, you will not get attacked.
And add mounted combat in certain PvP zones.
they once and for all need to try and ballance things with game mechanics.
just taking flying mounts away is stupid, because they are fun to collect and to fly... And taking it away temporary tells me they dont care for content older then 3 months.. Which is even a more saddening conclusion.
One thing about flying I am happy about. No endurance hits. I used to think when you started flying, endurance would go down and you would have to rest. Now that would be a bitch. I think I played a game awhile back that had endurance for flying. I could be wrong.
Plus, you can log out flying and when you log in, you are still flying.
I love flying especially with a kickass video card. You see everything and can go anywhere without being ganked.
Lol an expansion last aprox 2 years and bliz propose the first month of that will be no flying to support the levelling experience. 5% of the lifetime of the expansion. If a player cannot handle a bit of difference for a short period even when the benefits are well discussed then they should perhaps reflect on why they want to supress such a thing.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The solution is never found in taking things away...
just add ennemies in the sky, the longer you fly, the bigger the chance that they get to you and throw you of your mount plummetting to certain death and making the mount useless for a few hours.
And add safe flying zones, i.e. If you are high enough level, you cant be thrown of your mount, and even higher level, you will not get attacked.
And add mounted combat in certain PvP zones.
they once and for all need to try and ballance things with game mechanics.
just taking flying mounts away is stupid, because they are fun to collect and to fly... And taking it away temporary tells me they dont care for content older then 3 months.. Which is even a more saddening conclusion.
One thing about flying I am happy about. No endurance hits. I used to think when you started flying, endurance would go down and you would have to rest. Now that would be a bitch. I think I played a game awhile back that had endurance for flying. I could be wrong.
Plus, you can log out flying and when you log in, you are still flying.
I love flying especially with a kickass video card. You see everything and can go anywhere without being ganked.
Not sure what game you might of played. But, I remember playing Aion a long time ago and You running out of steam after like 20 seconds of flying. Was it Aion?
Personally, I play the game to relax. Call me a casual, I am. I pay the 15/mo because I enjoy it as it is; relaxing. That being said, I really enjoy the flying. There are so few games that do flying as smoothly as WoW. Vangaurd's flying wasn't that great, everything else I've come across is either a crappily made Anime mmo or something that doesn't suit my fancy enough.
Not completely siding with the pro-flying team, though.
I have no issue with them taking the flying away until a certain patch, it will give me a chance to explore some more, get some mud on my character's feet so to speak. It's kind of funny the way the elder players of the game hated the way wow has changed, and newer players (like me) hate the change it (might) make to make us work for stuff, like I'm told it used to. xD
Burnt myself there a little, but it's the truth. And when it comes down to it, all games change. If they don't, they probably have a sequel in mind. I'm up to the challenge WoW might bring ahead, as casual as I am. Everyone enjoys different playstyles and I respect all of yours. I'd prefer flying, but I'm not opposed to it not being there for a while.
Originally posted by muffins89 it took me almost 2 years to save up enough gold to be able to fly. im glad the developers see that certain things in the game should be a challenge. I hope that the quest line or whatever it is they decide players must complete in order to fly in the expansion is a challenge.
and they will just give them away in the future. It took me forever to save up 500 gold for my mount skill, only for them to later on practically give it away. Challenge rendered moot=angry player
Comments
You lack imagination. Someone has already mentioned adding in flying enemies, aerial combat. That's not as easy to develop as just removing flying.
I'm with Omnifish & Mr Picard on this one. It's a feeble attempt to make their content seem longer and more challenging, and the feeble minded fall for it.
110% agree.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
^
Best solution imo. Add mounted combat to that then you might have an interesting expansion.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Even without mounted combat that could work. Don't want people flying over an area? Add hostile dragons flying around. Or cannons that shoot you down. Or even have an impenetrable force field you need to tunnel under.
So many better ways than just blocking off the skill then unlocking it at the new level cap. I mean it kinda made sense in Wrath, when they explained it as cold weather flight. But Pandaria made no sense whatsoever. At least the timeless isle kind of tried to explain it, but then ruined it by having flying creatures all over the island.
Its just lazy design.
In Everquest 2 when they opened up the second part of Velious, they had a hostile dragon flying around who knocked people out of the sky if you tried to fly. At the end of the questline you pacify the dragon and it no longer harasses you. Same effect, but far better implementation.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
That sort of thing has been in the game for as long as there has been flying. There were several areas in BC where you could get shot down (forge camps near Ogri'la, for instance, both cannons that can shot you down and a dragon that will nuke you) and pretty much every town and city has air defenses.
That's what you get when people post about things they have no clue about.
Whine to get attention while not even knowing the game mechanics.
Typical for this place. Whine to whine without even active playing the things.
EQ2 has no open world flying except in some end game zones. Is this common in EQ2 to boast about things they ... dont have ?
Typical. Wake me up when you guys finally get seamless dynamic phasing and open world travel without zoning.
Dude, you are talking about reality when you are way over your head into WoW.....a pixel game.
I fear for you when they announce the closure of WOW X-years from now, what will you do with your thousands of pets you 'worked' for all those years.
Fact remains, Blizzard is a company, that needs money, you ppl generate it, and if you log in and "fly" around doing all content in 1 week and then crash after 1 month being bored OR do the same expansion in 3 months and generate 3x $$$ for them, what do you expect they will do?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Like some of the other posters, I'm done with WoW and have been for some time (since the beginning of CATA).
The only mistake Blizz made with flying was the way the implemented it. Flying for the sake of getting from Point A to Point B, is a mistake. They should have implemented mounted combat, more no-fly zones, and flight based objectives. Instead, they turned the game into a dive in, kill the single mob you need, mount and fly out game.
On the other hand, it did open up the world a little bit and allows them to place things in the sky. So it isn't a total waste.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
a few observations:
first, the OP seems to think this is Blizz changing their minds on making content easily obtainable, when in fact, its simply Blizz reiterating that they will be doing the same thing they do with every xpac and make flying an endgame activity in the new zone. the only difference here is they have recognized that a slew of people reach max level within a day of release and are flying by day two, if not sooner. so, Blizz has put off flying until the first big patch to the xpac.
that is the only thing that has changed. this particular set of posts is not evidence that Blizz is making an overall design move to more difficult content.
secondly, we get to witness the unimaginative approach to content they have held since day one. rather than asking why players are trying to avoid entertainment content for which they will have paid 50+USD, they have decided to strong arm them into it.
they make it clear in their post that putting off flying is for one reason - to make players consume content they don't want to consume. so rather than try to fix that content, or try to make it more entertaining, they remove flying.
what would it have cost to make flying an integral part of the content? or to make it so difficult to fly that only the best flyers and strategizers could get through the air mostly unscathed?
to include the flying mechanic in the game design instead of treating it like an addendum might have resolved some of these questions.
none of what i have said is addressing whether flying should have ever been introduced or not. that's a done deal, its over. the real question is what are you going to do with your design decision now that it is considered a core mechanic. and current players do see it as such.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
wake me up when they remove 4-5 years of instant gratification mechanics and maybe i'll care. flying mounts? pfffft .. who cares? faceroll solo quest grinding is faceroll solo quest grinding with or without flying mounts.
flying mounts trivializes content ... pffft ... flying mounts don't trivialize content, casual pandering trivializes content.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Agreed. WoW before flying felt more immersive, but i wouldn't want to get rid of flying altogether. Some zones are good for it. As for GW2, i agree. I never liked the instant teleportation. They went too extreme for convenience. There needs to be a balance for traveling.
the funny thing is there will still be level 91 bots flying around farming ore, just like there were in MoP.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
flying mounts are a huge part of wow and I think flying, more than any other feature, is what they have to thank for the games popularity and longevity. The devs post.. not a good idea at all. While leveling it is totally understandable of course, but making the flying/no flying choice based on nostalgia, how great it was to unlock flying the first time and trying to recreate that feeling? that is a terrible idea- we already did that! re-rewarding people with something they already worked for and already earned isn't going to go well.
making the timeless isle flightless didn't achieve what they were going for anyway. people still ignore everything and stampede their way through to get to the next rare mob coming up. They need to stop treating flying like a problem. It may be inconvenient to design a game around, but its also the single biggest feature of WoW that none of its copycats have ever managed to recreate. I don't think its a coincidence that none of them have managed to come close to WoW's success. I think its simple- the average player loves flying and hates being annoyed constantly by mobs while trying to travel around. Screw with this and you might be killing the golden goose.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
One thing about flying I am happy about. No endurance hits. I used to think when you started flying, endurance would go down and you would have to rest. Now that would be a bitch. I think I played a game awhile back that had endurance for flying. I could be wrong.
Plus, you can log out flying and when you log in, you are still flying.
I love flying especially with a kickass video card. You see everything and can go anywhere without being ganked.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Not sure what game you might of played. But, I remember playing Aion a long time ago and You running out of steam after like 20 seconds of flying. Was it Aion?
Personally, I play the game to relax. Call me a casual, I am. I pay the 15/mo because I enjoy it as it is; relaxing. That being said, I really enjoy the flying. There are so few games that do flying as smoothly as WoW. Vangaurd's flying wasn't that great, everything else I've come across is either a crappily made Anime mmo or something that doesn't suit my fancy enough.
Not completely siding with the pro-flying team, though.
I have no issue with them taking the flying away until a certain patch, it will give me a chance to explore some more, get some mud on my character's feet so to speak. It's kind of funny the way the elder players of the game hated the way wow has changed, and newer players (like me) hate the change it (might) make to make us work for stuff, like I'm told it used to. xD
Burnt myself there a little, but it's the truth. And when it comes down to it, all games change. If they don't, they probably have a sequel in mind. I'm up to the challenge WoW might bring ahead, as casual as I am. Everyone enjoys different playstyles and I respect all of yours. I'd prefer flying, but I'm not opposed to it not being there for a while.
and they will just give them away in the future. It took me forever to save up 500 gold for my mount skill, only for them to later on practically give it away. Challenge rendered moot=angry player