Originally posted by lizardbones "Depth" is subjective and pretty arbitrary. I've seen more depth in Fallout 3 and Alan Wake using 1 button for most of my input than I've seen in most of the MMORPGs I've played, all of which have more than 12 active abilities available. Especially considering that nearly all of those button options relate to combat and nothing else.
No.
But I do thank you for your attempt to dismiss what the word depth means to fit your idea of what is or is not a good game. No amount of spin is going to take away from the fact that 10x the amount of possible ways to input information allowing for more ways to interact in the game equals more depth. Next you are going to tell me that 1 quest with a really great storyline is more content than 80 quests with an average storyline...
Other than being a subjective term at best, and at worst you're just wrong?
Let's look at this? Aside from combat, what are all those buttons used for? What is the player doing with all those buttons that they can't right click or left click their mouse to accomplish?
Combat? If the frequent complaints on these forums have been any indication, players end up using rotations of skills, running through the exact same skills during most encounters. The extra buttons have not added depth, just time.
What about chat windows? That could add depth, but that's not game play, it's players interacting with each other. Presumably if more buttons added "depth", it would add depth whether there were other players hanging around or not.
Yes, combat is the #1 thing players think about in most games, but in most MMOs, there are many functions that can be mapped to keystrokes.
- I can turn off the UI with one keystroke. - I map my hotbars using combo keys like CTRL (hotbar 2), ALT (hotbar 3), and Shift (hotbar 4). Granted, these are mostly (95%) combat, so your point is well taken. - Best of all, I can emote with a keystroke.
I do get your point, though
You can do the same thing with the gamepad by comboing buttons and using macros
You can also emote with the press of a button with a gamepad too.
Final Fantasy 11 and FF14 ARR has those things for gamepad controls.
Heres a gamepad demo for FF14 to show an example of how you can map emotes and skills to gamepads hotbar sets.
There are some things that can lost when creating a game for both platforms.
When generating content for a console the developers are limited to the hardware that is built into the console, you can't modify the internal hardware the same way you can for computers, so the developers can be forced to 'limit' their development or innovation to what the console is able to handle and have a very limited way that they can improve on because of the hardware. However the majority of developers have been very thoughtful and have produced HD content packs for the PC users who can use such things, but then that takes away development time from content.
Communication as mentioned before is a huge impact for games that don't naturally support voice chat, however with the great job done by the consoles of late I feel this is a moot point as much as I would like keyboards being mandatory for any sort of mmo console gaming. The only complaint I have is one of a personal nature being hard of hearing and often times not wanting to hear scrawny voices in my ear unless I'm doing raid content.
In competitive gameplay, when comparing the mouse + keyboard vs a gamepad. The mouse and keyboard will win overwhelmingly. This can be a doubling factor that oftentimes competitive PC players often have extremely high end equipment and macro based keyboards/mouses that aren't available to the console user. In addition in large scale battles and high rendering events the PC has better processing power and graphic rendition than a console which can impact gameplay and give a speedbased advantage to an already faster device/platform.
Taking other accounts such as UI and short cuts. The PC user will be based on a mouse environment that can potentially cycle through any option and have 'mouse over events' for additional explaination of stats, equipment, with nearly the entire keyboard available for short cuts. Whereas the console user is more of a selective process from option to option and limited to the buttons available on the game pad.
To say that MMOs lose quality when they are designed for both platforms isn't really the best phrasing. When made for both platforms MMOs lose the higher end options that are associated with higher graphical power, free form mousing options and the complexity of the game that making singly for a PC. MMOs made for both platforms are made to cater to a larger audience, which requires design sacrafice to provide an even playing field for both sets of users.
Right now the loss ( for us primary PC users) feel is in the complexity of the game which we feel is necessary for us the play a game for an extended amount of time causing us to hop into a game for a month or two before everything becomes repetitive and boring, forcing us to go look for something else. Repeating the cycle endlessly.
Nailed it!
Most importantly, a controller has less buttons and combinations then a keyboard. Meaning if any cross platform MMO were to have PVP, they would have to dumb it down for the PC Gamers so the consolers could compete. People disagree with me and say they are on par. But im sorry, nothing beats gesture pinpoint accuracy and the efficiency of endless hotkeys.
Its this limitation, twinned with graphics, UI, gameplay, that seriously make cross platform games unattractive. On a PC, I dont want to be instantly gratified by constant action, becuase believe it or not, that shit makes it boring and repeitive to me. I want to THINK about my game, work shit out for myself, learn from it, feel I can mold the world around me. Console games have never given me that feeling, they're just linear...
EDIT: That said, I cant WAIT to see how the next cross platform PVP works out in the next call of duty. I swear, unless microsoft nerf the fuck out of PC Gamers, they're gonna wipe the floor.
"If the game hadn't limited itself by going on consoles as well. I would had bought it in a instant. Now that they have I can't see a bright future for the game. MMORPGS need to stick to PC's, otherwise the gameplay will be half-arsed and lesser in order to fit the analog stick." ~ Winghaven1, user on mmorpg.com
I saw this statement in another thread and it struck a chord with me. Though I've thought about it in the past and kinda tried to argue against the idea in my own mind, I'm finding it more and more an important concern. I didn't want to believe it, because I believe it's possible for a dev team to make it work, but I'm having issues arguing now against the point.
Are games made simpler if devs intend to release on console? OR are simple games released for console to garner more audience?
Should we ever take a game seriously when the devs say they'll cross-platform? Will this change with the capabilities of the current gen PS4 and XBox1?
Originally posted by lizardbones "Depth" is subjective and pretty arbitrary. I've seen more depth in Fallout 3 and Alan Wake using 1 button for most of my input than I've seen in most of the MMORPGs I've played, all of which have more than 12 active abilities available. Especially considering that nearly all of those button options relate to combat and nothing else. No.
But I do thank you for your attempt to dismiss what the word depth means to fit your idea of what is or is not a good game. No amount of spin is going to take away from the fact that 10x the amount of possible ways to input information allowing for more ways to interact in the game equals more depth. Next you are going to tell me that 1 quest with a really great storyline is more content than 80 quests with an average storyline...
Other than being a subjective term at best, and at worst you're just wrong?
Let's look at this? Aside from combat, what are all those buttons used for? What is the player doing with all those buttons that they can't right click or left click their mouse to accomplish?
Combat? If the frequent complaints on these forums have been any indication, players end up using rotations of skills, running through the exact same skills during most encounters. The extra buttons have not added depth, just time.
What about chat windows? That could add depth, but that's not game play, it's players interacting with each other. Presumably if more buttons added "depth", it would add depth whether there were other players hanging around or not.
Yes, combat is the #1 thing players think about in most games, but in most MMOs, there are many functions that can be mapped to keystrokes.
- I can turn off the UI with one keystroke. - I map my hotbars using combo keys like CTRL (hotbar 2), ALT (hotbar 3), and Shift (hotbar 4). Granted, these are mostly (95%) combat, so your point is well taken. - Best of all, I can emote with a keystroke.
I do get your point, though
There are definitely ways developers can add depth using keyboards, and it would be very difficult to do with a console controller. Emotes are actually a good example. You can certainly do it with a controller, and interface options (Fable does this), but it's much more efficient with a keyboard.
What about interacting with NPCs they we used to do with text based adventures? EQ:N* is going to do this, and it's something that adds some depth to the game play, some immersion, and it's something that's not really possible with a controller.
**
* I think it's actually Shroud of the Avatar, not EQ:N.
I really like EQ's old way of actually typing in chat to NPCs. Sure, they had their keywords that needed to be used, but you could use those keywords any way you liked, be it snarky, nice, pandering, however a player may be feeling at the time.
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo You can do the same thing with the gamepad by comboing buttons and using macros
You can also emote with the press of a button with a gamepad too.
Final Fantasy 11 and FF14 ARR has those things for gamepad controls.
Heres a gamepad demo for FF14 to show an example of how you can map emotes and skills to gamepads hotbar sets.
Still, on my keyboard I have 108 keys x 4 (ctrl, alt, shift combos) plus my numpad adding in 16 x 4 (ctrl, alt, shift combos again) making for a whopping 496 (432+64) key combos. What is the best a gamepad can offer?
The biggest drawback for me is the lack of (or hassle of) text entering. If I have to use a keyboard on my console, why not just play on my PC? It sure is easier to plug a gamepad into a PC than a keyboard into my console. Where does that keyboard sit while playing?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
You can do the same thing with the gamepad by comboing buttons and using macros
You can also emote with the press of a button with a gamepad too.
Final Fantasy 11 and FF14 ARR has those things for gamepad controls.
Heres a gamepad demo for FF14 to show an example of how you can map emotes and skills to gamepads hotbar sets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31VUjynjed0&hd=1
Nailed it!
Most importantly, a controller has less buttons and combinations then a keyboard. Meaning if any cross platform MMO were to have PVP, they would have to dumb it down for the PC Gamers so the consolers could compete. People disagree with me and say they are on par. But im sorry, nothing beats gesture pinpoint accuracy and the efficiency of endless hotkeys.
Its this limitation, twinned with graphics, UI, gameplay, that seriously make cross platform games unattractive. On a PC, I dont want to be instantly gratified by constant action, becuase believe it or not, that shit makes it boring and repeitive to me. I want to THINK about my game, work shit out for myself, learn from it, feel I can mold the world around me. Console games have never given me that feeling, they're just linear...
EDIT: That said, I cant WAIT to see how the next cross platform PVP works out in the next call of duty. I swear, unless microsoft nerf the fuck out of PC Gamers, they're gonna wipe the floor.
---
Ooh, another blanket TESO commentary.
Still, on my keyboard I have 108 keys x 4 (ctrl, alt, shift combos) plus my numpad adding in 16 x 4 (ctrl, alt, shift combos again) making for a whopping 496 (432+64) key combos. What is the best a gamepad can offer?
The biggest drawback for me is the lack of (or hassle of) text entering. If I have to use a keyboard on my console, why not just play on my PC? It sure is easier to plug a gamepad into a PC than a keyboard into my console. Where does that keyboard sit while playing?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR