Interdependence is cool, but we have all been burned multiple times by players who are simply not enjoyable to work with. In SWTOR last night, I think I got quest stealed (as I was clearing the mobs, someone ran up and clicked the quest credit thingy) three times in 20 minutes by different players. Very enlightening on human behavior. I don't think even one hesitated to take from another. FYI: This was discussed in detail by Socrates, Plato, and Plato's brothers in The Republic.
I think before we can re-introduce interdependency as a game feature we should come up with a mechanism to 'encourage' respectful play. Otherwise it will continue to be a tool of the minority only.
As a solution, the best thing I have seen thus far that does this is reddit's karma rating system. I would combine up/down votes of fellow players with the ability (and make sure that everyone knows about it, not like Dr Strangelove) to semi-permanently hide unwanted players from your game experience. In some cases they cant even be in the zone with you.
Perhaps with both mechanisms, we can remove the Ring of Gyges from all the players, and have more sociable experiences and then re-add interdependency to the game's community.
I am trying this in my own project and am curious if, in time, it fosters the P+P game behavior I suspect the OP misses.
I feel you're being a bit disingenuous with some of your comments. I haven't personally played very many mmos where all classes had all utility spells, nor where you had access to all crating professions on one character. There is still interdependence built into many mmos, but the biggest difference is that it is not a requirement.
In more modern mmos you don't have to have every single buff available to you in order to complete a given task. Honestly, this is a good thing, because the game becomes less about filling holes and not being able to play without the right make up, and more about the business of playing the actual game. Yes, there is still most viable and best set ups for the min maxers, but these are not hard and fast requirements for everyone.
While the OP is a bit over the top with OP class specific spells which are always a bit tricky, this is why we cannot have nice things.
Because we want a evoker for a 2% dps buff instead of trying 2% harder.
Because we want everyone to have buffs and heals because we are unable to find people who enjoy the playstyle (which WAS supperted by requiring one support per 10-20 people not 1 in 5 like now) and unwilling to draw straws and step up to the task in the worst case.
Always reminds me of what i heard some hybrid players saying shortly before they quit in wotlk, how HAPPY they are that they can play as dps after SUFFERING for years playing their underpowered class as healer and support...
I feel you're being a bit disingenuous with some of your comments. I haven't personally played very many mmos where all classes had all utility spells, nor where you had access to all crating professions on one character. There is still interdependence built into many mmos, but the biggest difference is that it is not a requirement.
In more modern mmos you don't have to have every single buff available to you in order to complete a given task. Honestly, this is a good thing, because the game becomes less about filling holes and not being able to play without the right make up, and more about the business of playing the actual game. Yes, there is still most viable and best set ups for the min maxers, but these are not hard and fast requirements for everyone.
While the OP is a bit over the top with OP class specific spells which are always a bit tricky, this is why we cannot have nice things.
Because we want a evoker for a 2% dps buff instead of trying 2% harder.
Because we want everyone to have buffs and heals because we are unable to find people who enjoy the playstyle (which WAS supperted by requiring one support per 10-20 people not 1 in 5 like now) and unwilling to draw straws and step up to the task in the worst case.
Always reminds me of what i heard some hybrid players saying shortly before they quit in wotlk, how HAPPY they are that they can play as dps after SUFFERING for years playing their underpowered class as healer and support...
Flame on!
When it costs a dollar a heal, and 50 cents a buff, there will still be people telling us it's a good thing. Only on forums of coarse.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I'm a big fan of interdependance. I think it adds alot to a game. Working with others is a large part of what I enjoy in MMO's. But that's me personaly. Every person is different.
What happaned, IMO, is that Developers became worshipers of "convenience" and instant gratification.....and there is no debate that many of the things that some of us enjoy and consider interesting aspects of gameplay, are big time inconveniences to others....and absolutely do slow do the pace of play and of progression. Interdependance is one of those.
Basicaly Dev's started making games targeted at audiences who have very different tastes then those of many of us who played games in the "old days".
Interdependence is fine except when you can't find someone you need in order to play the game. Example, you need a doctor's buff in SWG to go hunt Rancors on Dathomir. Problem is, you are playing in the early morning and there are no doctor's on at the moment. You have two choices, wait or do something else. And even then, you are not assured of getting what you need in a TIMELY fashion. Games have to be playable. Being too dependent on other players is just not always a reliable way to have fun.
I feel you're being a bit disingenuous with some of your comments. I haven't personally played very many mmos where all classes had all utility spells, nor where you had access to all crating professions on one character. There is still interdependence built into many mmos, but the biggest difference is that it is not a requirement.
In more modern mmos you don't have to have every single buff available to you in order to complete a given task. Honestly, this is a good thing, because the game becomes less about filling holes and not being able to play without the right make up, and more about the business of playing the actual game. Yes, there is still most viable and best set ups for the min maxers, but these are not hard and fast requirements for everyone.
While the OP is a bit over the top with OP class specific spells which are always a bit tricky, this is why we cannot have nice things.
Because we want a evoker for a 2% dps buff instead of trying 2% harder.
Because we want everyone to have buffs and heals because we are unable to find people who enjoy the playstyle (which WAS supperted by requiring one support per 10-20 people not 1 in 5 like now) and unwilling to draw straws and step up to the task in the worst case.
Always reminds me of what i heard some hybrid players saying shortly before they quit in wotlk, how HAPPY they are that they can play as dps after SUFFERING for years playing their underpowered class as healer and support...
Flame on!
I was one of those hybrid players. I played a Shaman in vanilla wow, and outside of PvP, being a dps shaman was only tolerated due to the few specific utility spells I brought. I remember being in a guild where people were saying stupid crap like, "Druids are there to innervate me and that's it". Typical elitist commentary.
When Blizzard revamped the classes and specs and gave them each a specific purpose, it was nice to play the class of my choosing again. I was able to be helpful outside of the few utility spells I had available. Going back to that would be a tremendous step backwards, imo.
Of course, I'm of the mind that buffs/debuffs should be short lived, longish cooldown, and moderately helpful, especially after witnessing the problems that buffbots can bring (talking old school mmos here).
I feel you're being a bit disingenuous with some of your comments. I haven't personally played very many mmos where all classes had all utility spells, nor where you had access to all crating professions on one character. There is still interdependence built into many mmos, but the biggest difference is that it is not a requirement.
In more modern mmos you don't have to have every single buff available to you in order to complete a given task. Honestly, this is a good thing, because the game becomes less about filling holes and not being able to play without the right make up, and more about the business of playing the actual game. Yes, there is still most viable and best set ups for the min maxers, but these are not hard and fast requirements for everyone.
While the OP is a bit over the top with OP class specific spells which are always a bit tricky, this is why we cannot have nice things.
Because we want a evoker for a 2% dps buff instead of trying 2% harder.
Because we want everyone to have buffs and heals because we are unable to find people who enjoy the playstyle (which WAS supperted by requiring one support per 10-20 people not 1 in 5 like now) and unwilling to draw straws and step up to the task in the worst case.
Always reminds me of what i heard some hybrid players saying shortly before they quit in wotlk, how HAPPY they are that they can play as dps after SUFFERING for years playing their underpowered class as healer and support...
Flame on!
This must just be a different perspective, because to me your post makes no sense.
This is why we can't have nice things... because we want everyone to have buffs and heals...
To me having the buffs and heals is the nice thing. Not having to have a specific role do it is the nice thing. Being able to form the group easier rather than wait for the specific class is the nice thing.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I like situational forced group combat and adventurer/crafter/support interdependcy. I think it creates a balance of solo play and designed forced grouping like many games have. They're just lacking making adventurers, crafters and support depend on each other. I think SWG had the best design at least in theory for this.
This must just be a different perspective, because to me your post makes no sense.
This is why we can't have nice things... because we want everyone to have buffs and heals...
To me having the buffs and heals is the nice thing. Not having to have a specific role do it is the nice thing. Being able to form the group easier rather than wait for the specific class is the nice thing.
You mean not having a specific role but still profiting from the possible ones is the nice thing
Which i agree, but no matter you turn it, it blands the experience.
And it changes nothing about waiting for the right class, th eplayer is still required to perform the role, you still end up with 5 priests dpsing and noone to heal.
This must just be a different perspective, because to me your post makes no sense.
This is why we can't have nice things... because we want everyone to have buffs and heals...
To me having the buffs and heals is the nice thing. Not having to have a specific role do it is the nice thing. Being able to form the group easier rather than wait for the specific class is the nice thing.
You mean not having a specific role but still profiting from the possible ones is the nice thing
Which i agree, but no matter you turn it, it blands the experience.
And it changes nothing about waiting for the right class, th eplayer is still required to perform the role, you still end up with 5 priests dpsing and noone to heal.
Flame on!
I don't think it makes it more bland at all. It gives me more skills and abilities to use making the game IMO more exciting.
Regarding waiting. If there is more than 1 class or role that can heal, there is likely less waiting. If all those priests have some ability to heal, there is no waiting at all.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I was one of those hybrid players. I played a Shaman in vanilla wow, and outside of PvP, being a dps shaman was only tolerated due to the few specific utility spells I brought. I remember being in a guild where people were saying stupid crap like, "Druids are there to innervate me and that's it". Typical elitist commentary.
When Blizzard revamped the classes and specs and gave them each a specific purpose, it was nice to play the class of my choosing again. I was able to be helpful outside of the few utility spells I had available. Going back to that would be a tremendous step backwards, imo.
Of course, I'm of the mind that buffs/debuffs should be short lived, longish cooldown, and moderately helpful, especially after witnessing the problems that buffbots can bring (talking old school mmos here).
This is a eternal struggle, not even worth going into detail here (or do you want to hear about healing in chain? 35k hp new naxx era hp ranged dps? nearly unlimited mana? "dont roll on that cloth, we need it for paladins to heal" ?)
I was more aiming at the perception that if you give everyone everything it gets automaticly better, people who were angry that they had to heal pre wotlk were unable to get into raids cause they unsurprisigly were bad at dps or just because everyone was dps...
The real question is why did games change to what they are today?
Popular demand?
or
Evil game developers bent on punishing the playerbase?
Old games were built on the principle of interdependence, which over time shifted to player independence.
I wonder how that happend.....
Yeah, popular demand all right, that's why modern AAA MMOs do SO WELL after launch, right? That's why SWTOR is a BOOMING success dwarfing all before it, right?
This must just be a different perspective, because to me your post makes no sense.
This is why we can't have nice things... because we want everyone to have buffs and heals...
To me having the buffs and heals is the nice thing. Not having to have a specific role do it is the nice thing. Being able to form the group easier rather than wait for the specific class is the nice thing.
You mean not having a specific role but still profiting from the possible ones is the nice thing
Which i agree, but no matter you turn it, it blands the experience.
And it changes nothing about waiting for the right class, th eplayer is still required to perform the role, you still end up with 5 priests dpsing and noone to heal.
Flame on!
I don't think it makes it more bland at all. It gives me more skills and abilities to use making the game IMO more exciting.
Regarding waiting. If there is more than 1 class or role that can heal, there is likely less waiting. If all those priests have some ability to heal, there is no waiting at all.
The real question is why did games change to what they are today?
Popular demand?
or
Evil game developers bent on punishing the playerbase?
Old games were built on the principle of interdependence, which over time shifted to player independence.
I wonder how that happend.....
Yeah, popular demand all right, that's why modern AAA MMOs do SO WELL after launch, right? That's why SWTOR is a BOOMING success dwarfing all before it, right?
Yes it had a rough launch, and they spent too much money developing it for what is a realistic return.
However by and large most new AAA mmo's are doing as well if not better than most previous MMO's.
and with swtor having 500k subs and 2 million f2p, it is dwarfing almost all the games that came before.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The real question is why did games change to what they are today?
Popular demand?
or
Evil game developers bent on punishing the playerbase?
Old games were built on the principle of interdependence, which over time shifted to player independence.
I wonder how that happend.....
Yeah, popular demand all right, that's why modern AAA MMOs do SO WELL after launch, right? That's why SWTOR is a BOOMING success dwarfing all before it, right?
Yes it had a rough launch, and they spent too much money developing it for what is a realistic return.
However by and large most new AAA mmo's are doing as well if not better than most previous MMO's.
and with swtor having 500k subs and 2 million f2p, it is dwarfing almost all the games that came before.
SWTOR does not have anywhere close to 500k subs anymore. And 2 million people registering for a website and making an account != active FTP players. Can you people honestly not see corporate spin on FTP numbers?
As for how big those numbers are, there are way more people playing MMOs now than before. In 2001, a 30 dev team with 1 million bucks made a game that reached 300k subscribers. Considering limited hardware, dial up speeds, and no advertising at all, that's big.
When the most expensive game ever made, with a marketing budget that eclipses the entire budget of aforementioned game many times over, can barely even get higher numbers than that despite having two of the most popular IPs ever behind it... THAT IS NOT A GREAT SUCCESS!
Interdependence encourages people to work together, which builds social ties, which keeps people playing longer, and the game growing. See Eve. See every pre WoW MMO that GREW OVER TIME.
Meanwhile, SWTOR is picking up speed on its way to the trash.
The real question is why did games change to what they are today?
Popular demand?
or
Evil game developers bent on punishing the playerbase?
Old games were built on the principle of interdependence, which over time shifted to player independence.
I wonder how that happend.....
Yeah, popular demand all right, that's why modern AAA MMOs do SO WELL after launch, right? That's why SWTOR is a BOOMING success dwarfing all before it, right?
Yes it had a rough launch, and they spent too much money developing it for what is a realistic return.
However by and large most new AAA mmo's are doing as well if not better than most previous MMO's.
and with swtor having 500k subs and 2 million f2p, it is dwarfing almost all the games that came before.
SWTOR does not have anywhere close to 500k subs anymore. And 2 million people registering for a website and making an account != active FTP players. Can you people honestly not see corporate spin on FTP numbers?
As for how big those numbers are, there are way more people playing MMOs now than before. In 2001, a 30 dev team with 1 million bucks made a game that reached 300k subscribers. Considering limited hardware, dial up speeds, and no advertising at all, that's big.
When the most expensive game ever made, with a marketing budget that eclipses the entire budget of aforementioned game many times over, can barely even get higher numbers than that despite having two of the most popular IPs ever behind it... THAT IS NOT A GREAT SUCCESS!
Interdependence encourages people to work together, which builds social ties, which keeps people playing longer, and the game growing. See Eve. See every pre WoW MMO that GREW OVER TIME.
Meanwhile, SWTOR is picking up speed on its way to the trash.
Well they announced around summertime that there were 500k subscribers and 2 million ACTIVE f2p players, not registered users. So unless you have something else to counter that...
Can you honestly not see corporate spin on sub numbers?
And eve hasn't really grown in 2 years, actually it shrunk a couple years ago.
Interdependence is not that only way, nor IMO the best way to encourage people to work together or build social ties.
The games before WoW grew because they were fun, and because there was a significant lack of information being put regarding games. And they grew to 50-500k subs.
Today information is easy, everyone knows about the games before they launch. 2 million at launch is normal, and they shrink to 50-500k.
And I never called or implied SwTor was a great success. I stated it has more subs/players than most other games that came before it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
in the games i played and preferred, one player could craft everything. trades would be done in order to trade resources and to trade random roll items.
The real question is why did games change to what they are today?
Popular demand?
or
Evil game developers bent on punishing the playerbase?
Old games were built on the principle of interdependence, which over time shifted to player independence.
I wonder how that happend.....
Yeah, popular demand all right, that's why modern AAA MMOs do SO WELL after launch, right? That's why SWTOR is a BOOMING success dwarfing all before it, right?
Yes it had a rough launch, and they spent too much money developing it for what is a realistic return.
However by and large most new AAA mmo's are doing as well if not better than most previous MMO's.
and with swtor having 500k subs and 2 million f2p, it is dwarfing almost all the games that came before.
SWTOR does not have anywhere close to 500k subs anymore. And 2 million people registering for a website and making an account != active FTP players. Can you people honestly not see corporate spin on FTP numbers?
As for how big those numbers are, there are way more people playing MMOs now than before. In 2001, a 30 dev team with 1 million bucks made a game that reached 300k subscribers. Considering limited hardware, dial up speeds, and no advertising at all, that's big.
When the most expensive game ever made, with a marketing budget that eclipses the entire budget of aforementioned game many times over, can barely even get higher numbers than that despite having two of the most popular IPs ever behind it... THAT IS NOT A GREAT SUCCESS!
Interdependence encourages people to work together, which builds social ties, which keeps people playing longer, and the game growing. See Eve. See every pre WoW MMO that GREW OVER TIME.
Meanwhile, SWTOR is picking up speed on its way to the trash.
Well they announced around summertime that there were 500k subscribers and 2 million ACTIVE f2p players, not registered users. So unless you have something else to counter that...
Can you honestly not see corporate spin on sub numbers?
And eve hasn't really grown in 2 years, actually it shrunk a couple years ago.
Interdependence is not that only way, nor IMO the best way to encourage people to work together or build social ties.
The games before WoW grew because they were fun
So you're saying modern games aren't fun? Well modern games don't have interdependence, old games did, I guess interdependence is fun?
And Eve grew from 350k subs to 550k subs in the last 2 years.
However by and large most new AAA mmo's are doing as well if not better than most previous MMO's.
I don't think that's an accurate statement in general. At least that's not the impression that stockholders have seemed to carry and the developers themselves to indicate by thier actions. One needs to consider the resources poured into the project (capital investments) compared to the return gained, and modern AAA's certainly seemed to have suffered from ever increasing production budgets.
Really it's very hard to compare the MMO's of old with the AAA's of today. The market of yester-year was much smaller....simply far fewer households with computers and internet connections let alone gaming not being mainstream but there was vastly less competition. Thus almost all of yester-year's MMO's would have drubbed todays MMO's for market share but that's not a fair comparison due to the change in competition. Many of todays MMO's beat yester-year's in raw numbers but that's really not a fair comparison either due to the vast differences in the size of the potential market (people with computers and internet who are interested in gaming). That's why pretty much all such comparisons must be taken with a very large grain of salt.
Now adding the FTP model into the mix complicates things even more since registered accounts or even accounts that have logged into during a month doesn't equate to customers and most MMO's don't give out thier real break-down.
I will say though that we have a pretty significant list of modern MMO's that seem to have underperformed what thier own Publishrers and Investors, let alone fans expectations were.
Off the top of my head.... Vanguard, DDO, STO, Warhammer Online, Tabula Rasa, The Secret World, TOR, you could possibly even include LOTRO in that. I'm sure I've missed others.
However, the real question today is one of competition. The MMO market (let alone the more general "Online Gaming Market") is absolutely saturated with offerings. So the real question for todays MMO Developer is not so much are they making a game that the public is interested in playing. It's are they making a game that the public is interested in playing more then the 100 other products thatr are fighting for the same entertainment dollar in the same market segment. One actualy has to expect that a certain number of MMO's going for the mainstream market aren't going to do all that great simply due to the level of competition they face.
I have no doubt that developers were chasing thier PERCEPTION of what popular demand was......or more accurately chasing a NEW market segment of customer who weren't currently playing MMO's but they thought they could get interested in playing MMO's if they changed some things about the nature of the products they offered. In other words, alot of new players who had different tastes then those of us who were playing games in 1998 came into the market.
At the same time there are still plenty of us who were playing games in 1998 around today and interested in game or two that caters to some of the things we enjoyed...... AND there are still plenty of people out there today who are NOT playing MMO's but might be willing to try one if it offered something different then todays MMO's. Some of tomorrows MMO's, if they want to be successfull, will need to provide something that todays MMO's don't.
No. I think modern games are just as fun as old games, in many ways more fun.
In 2011 Eve had 357k subs on a world market.
You are correct that it has grown to just over 500 subs, i apologize on that front. It did have a drop in 2011 though, and grew when the chinese server was launched in december last year.
The same number of subs as swtor it seems.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Interdependent games? Isn't that how browser games are? But then again I think that's another type of game. >.<
MMO's went on a larger scale to be available to more players. If it stayed on a small scale it might've been just fine unless it's going bankrupt or something then it needed a solution.
It might be difficult to have a face to face trade if you have to travel several hours just for a piece of digital stuff that could've been traded digitally, faster and more conveniently.
There are still MMO's out there that encourage partying or least fighting alongside other players. GW2 is like that right?
Think about it who wants to play a squishy character that dies in two hits and has no DPS? Nobody, it is not logical. The only reason these classes were played at all was because it exploited basic human psychology.
enchanters in EQ1 were the weakest class for damage (unless they charmed mobs) even clerics had better nukes
and I *loved* that class to pieces -- there's more than DPS to have fun w other players, Crowd Control
WOW never had support classes so they are a foreign concept to many gamers
Bards go back to D&D
The ironic part about these complaints about support not having DPS, is that while they had lower DPS the support classes in older games like Everquest were actually godlike for soloing (until they released expansions with heavy crowd control immunity). My Enchanter and Bard soloed things that Sorcerers and Rogues could only dream of.
I loved those classes, and not because they were great at soloing. They were the classes where a good player really shone. A good support character could make a bad group seem adequate, or a good group be amazing. But I guess players from the post-WoW era have never really experienced this firsthand and just think - oh its not top DPS, why bother.
I would love to see another game with unapologetically unique and imbalanced classes. A new Vanguard or Everquest. Racial and faction locked classes. Something that doesn't feel compelled to make mirror images of classes and skills so everyone feels balanced. Classes in modern MMOs feel so sterile and lifeless because of this.
Comments
Interdependence is cool, but we have all been burned multiple times by players who are simply not enjoyable to work with. In SWTOR last night, I think I got quest stealed (as I was clearing the mobs, someone ran up and clicked the quest credit thingy) three times in 20 minutes by different players. Very enlightening on human behavior. I don't think even one hesitated to take from another. FYI: This was discussed in detail by Socrates, Plato, and Plato's brothers in The Republic.
I think before we can re-introduce interdependency as a game feature we should come up with a mechanism to 'encourage' respectful play. Otherwise it will continue to be a tool of the minority only.
As a solution, the best thing I have seen thus far that does this is reddit's karma rating system. I would combine up/down votes of fellow players with the ability (and make sure that everyone knows about it, not like Dr Strangelove) to semi-permanently hide unwanted players from your game experience. In some cases they cant even be in the zone with you.
Perhaps with both mechanisms, we can remove the Ring of Gyges from all the players, and have more sociable experiences and then re-add interdependency to the game's community.
I am trying this in my own project and am curious if, in time, it fosters the P+P game behavior I suspect the OP misses.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
While the OP is a bit over the top with OP class specific spells which are always a bit tricky, this is why we cannot have nice things.
Because we want a evoker for a 2% dps buff instead of trying 2% harder.
Because we want everyone to have buffs and heals because we are unable to find people who enjoy the playstyle (which WAS supperted by requiring one support per 10-20 people not 1 in 5 like now) and unwilling to draw straws and step up to the task in the worst case.
Always reminds me of what i heard some hybrid players saying shortly before they quit in wotlk, how HAPPY they are that they can play as dps after SUFFERING for years playing their underpowered class as healer and support...
Flame on!
When it costs a dollar a heal, and 50 cents a buff, there will still be people telling us it's a good thing. Only on forums of coarse.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Care to elaborate?
Flame on!
I'm a big fan of interdependance. I think it adds alot to a game. Working with others is a large part of what I enjoy in MMO's. But that's me personaly. Every person is different.
What happaned, IMO, is that Developers became worshipers of "convenience" and instant gratification.....and there is no debate that many of the things that some of us enjoy and consider interesting aspects of gameplay, are big time inconveniences to others....and absolutely do slow do the pace of play and of progression. Interdependance is one of those.
Basicaly Dev's started making games targeted at audiences who have very different tastes then those of many of us who played games in the "old days".
Interdependence is fine except when you can't find someone you need in order to play the game. Example, you need a doctor's buff in SWG to go hunt Rancors on Dathomir. Problem is, you are playing in the early morning and there are no doctor's on at the moment. You have two choices, wait or do something else. And even then, you are not assured of getting what you need in a TIMELY fashion. Games have to be playable. Being too dependent on other players is just not always a reliable way to have fun.
Let's party like it is 1863!
I was one of those hybrid players. I played a Shaman in vanilla wow, and outside of PvP, being a dps shaman was only tolerated due to the few specific utility spells I brought. I remember being in a guild where people were saying stupid crap like, "Druids are there to innervate me and that's it". Typical elitist commentary.
When Blizzard revamped the classes and specs and gave them each a specific purpose, it was nice to play the class of my choosing again. I was able to be helpful outside of the few utility spells I had available. Going back to that would be a tremendous step backwards, imo.
Of course, I'm of the mind that buffs/debuffs should be short lived, longish cooldown, and moderately helpful, especially after witnessing the problems that buffbots can bring (talking old school mmos here).
This must just be a different perspective, because to me your post makes no sense.
This is why we can't have nice things... because we want everyone to have buffs and heals...
To me having the buffs and heals is the nice thing. Not having to have a specific role do it is the nice thing. Being able to form the group easier rather than wait for the specific class is the nice thing.
You mean not having a specific role but still profiting from the possible ones is the nice thing
Which i agree, but no matter you turn it, it blands the experience.
And it changes nothing about waiting for the right class, th eplayer is still required to perform the role, you still end up with 5 priests dpsing and noone to heal.
Flame on!
I don't think it makes it more bland at all. It gives me more skills and abilities to use making the game IMO more exciting.
Regarding waiting. If there is more than 1 class or role that can heal, there is likely less waiting. If all those priests have some ability to heal, there is no waiting at all.
This is a eternal struggle, not even worth going into detail here (or do you want to hear about healing in chain? 35k hp new naxx era hp ranged dps? nearly unlimited mana? "dont roll on that cloth, we need it for paladins to heal" ?)
I was more aiming at the perception that if you give everyone everything it gets automaticly better, people who were angry that they had to heal pre wotlk were unable to get into raids cause they unsurprisigly were bad at dps or just because everyone was dps...
Flame on!
Yeah, popular demand all right, that's why modern AAA MMOs do SO WELL after launch, right? That's why SWTOR is a BOOMING success dwarfing all before it, right?
They still have to be willing to heal.
Flame on!
Yes it had a rough launch, and they spent too much money developing it for what is a realistic return.
However by and large most new AAA mmo's are doing as well if not better than most previous MMO's.
and with swtor having 500k subs and 2 million f2p, it is dwarfing almost all the games that came before.
SWTOR does not have anywhere close to 500k subs anymore. And 2 million people registering for a website and making an account != active FTP players. Can you people honestly not see corporate spin on FTP numbers?
As for how big those numbers are, there are way more people playing MMOs now than before. In 2001, a 30 dev team with 1 million bucks made a game that reached 300k subscribers. Considering limited hardware, dial up speeds, and no advertising at all, that's big.
When the most expensive game ever made, with a marketing budget that eclipses the entire budget of aforementioned game many times over, can barely even get higher numbers than that despite having two of the most popular IPs ever behind it... THAT IS NOT A GREAT SUCCESS!
Interdependence encourages people to work together, which builds social ties, which keeps people playing longer, and the game growing. See Eve. See every pre WoW MMO that GREW OVER TIME.
Meanwhile, SWTOR is picking up speed on its way to the trash.
Well they announced around summertime that there were 500k subscribers and 2 million ACTIVE f2p players, not registered users. So unless you have something else to counter that...
Can you honestly not see corporate spin on sub numbers?
And eve hasn't really grown in 2 years, actually it shrunk a couple years ago.
Interdependence is not that only way, nor IMO the best way to encourage people to work together or build social ties.
The games before WoW grew because they were fun, and because there was a significant lack of information being put regarding games. And they grew to 50-500k subs.
Today information is easy, everyone knows about the games before they launch. 2 million at launch is normal, and they shrink to 50-500k.
And I never called or implied SwTor was a great success. I stated it has more subs/players than most other games that came before it.
So you're saying modern games aren't fun? Well modern games don't have interdependence, old games did, I guess interdependence is fun?
And Eve grew from 350k subs to 550k subs in the last 2 years.
I don't think that's an accurate statement in general. At least that's not the impression that stockholders have seemed to carry and the developers themselves to indicate by thier actions. One needs to consider the resources poured into the project (capital investments) compared to the return gained, and modern AAA's certainly seemed to have suffered from ever increasing production budgets.
Really it's very hard to compare the MMO's of old with the AAA's of today. The market of yester-year was much smaller....simply far fewer households with computers and internet connections let alone gaming not being mainstream but there was vastly less competition. Thus almost all of yester-year's MMO's would have drubbed todays MMO's for market share but that's not a fair comparison due to the change in competition. Many of todays MMO's beat yester-year's in raw numbers but that's really not a fair comparison either due to the vast differences in the size of the potential market (people with computers and internet who are interested in gaming). That's why pretty much all such comparisons must be taken with a very large grain of salt.
Now adding the FTP model into the mix complicates things even more since registered accounts or even accounts that have logged into during a month doesn't equate to customers and most MMO's don't give out thier real break-down.
I will say though that we have a pretty significant list of modern MMO's that seem to have underperformed what thier own Publishrers and Investors, let alone fans expectations were.
Off the top of my head.... Vanguard, DDO, STO, Warhammer Online, Tabula Rasa, The Secret World, TOR, you could possibly even include LOTRO in that. I'm sure I've missed others.
However, the real question today is one of competition. The MMO market (let alone the more general "Online Gaming Market") is absolutely saturated with offerings. So the real question for todays MMO Developer is not so much are they making a game that the public is interested in playing. It's are they making a game that the public is interested in playing more then the 100 other products thatr are fighting for the same entertainment dollar in the same market segment. One actualy has to expect that a certain number of MMO's going for the mainstream market aren't going to do all that great simply due to the level of competition they face.
I have no doubt that developers were chasing thier PERCEPTION of what popular demand was......or more accurately chasing a NEW market segment of customer who weren't currently playing MMO's but they thought they could get interested in playing MMO's if they changed some things about the nature of the products they offered. In other words, alot of new players who had different tastes then those of us who were playing games in 1998 came into the market.
At the same time there are still plenty of us who were playing games in 1998 around today and interested in game or two that caters to some of the things we enjoyed...... AND there are still plenty of people out there today who are NOT playing MMO's but might be willing to try one if it offered something different then todays MMO's. Some of tomorrows MMO's, if they want to be successfull, will need to provide something that todays MMO's don't.
No. I think modern games are just as fun as old games, in many ways more fun.
In 2011 Eve had 357k subs on a world market.
You are correct that it has grown to just over 500 subs, i apologize on that front. It did have a drop in 2011 though, and grew when the chinese server was launched in december last year.
The same number of subs as swtor it seems.
Interdependent games? Isn't that how browser games are? But then again I think that's another type of game. >.<
MMO's went on a larger scale to be available to more players. If it stayed on a small scale it might've been just fine unless it's going bankrupt or something then it needed a solution.
It might be difficult to have a face to face trade if you have to travel several hours just for a piece of digital stuff that could've been traded digitally, faster and more conveniently.
There are still MMO's out there that encourage partying or least fighting alongside other players. GW2 is like that right?
The ironic part about these complaints about support not having DPS, is that while they had lower DPS the support classes in older games like Everquest were actually godlike for soloing (until they released expansions with heavy crowd control immunity). My Enchanter and Bard soloed things that Sorcerers and Rogues could only dream of.
I loved those classes, and not because they were great at soloing. They were the classes where a good player really shone. A good support character could make a bad group seem adequate, or a good group be amazing. But I guess players from the post-WoW era have never really experienced this firsthand and just think - oh its not top DPS, why bother.
I would love to see another game with unapologetically unique and imbalanced classes. A new Vanguard or Everquest. Racial and faction locked classes. Something that doesn't feel compelled to make mirror images of classes and skills so everyone feels balanced. Classes in modern MMOs feel so sterile and lifeless because of this.