2005 Readers Choice Awards

Sarmaul · December 2005

Any particular reason why EVE-Online isn't up for the PVP award, dispite it having quite possibly the best PVP implemtation in an MMORPG at this time? Combat plays a VERY big part in this game, and unlike some (most) other MMORPGs it's combat with consequences - no respawning with all your items and gold rubbish.

Sort it out!!!

pyros98 · December 2005

I was wondering the same thing...

There's nothing more intense then the feeling that if you do something wrong, you'll lose a ship with all the expensive mods you have equiped.

moonfog · December 2005

What list are you talking about the games list on mmorpg.com?

Also EVE has a pretty low (25-30k) community, so it cant compete with "readers Choice" as players from the other games with higher player numbers vote for there game naturally.

scaramoosh · December 2005

Originally posted by moonfog

What list are you talking about the games list on mmorpg.com?
Also EVE has a pretty low (25-30k) community, so it cant compete with "readers Choice" as players from the other games with higher player numbers vote for there game naturally.

75k

apertotes · December 2005

Originally posted by Sarmaul

Any particular reason why EVE-Online isn't up for the PVP award, dispite it having quite possibly the best PVP implemtation in an MMORPG at this time? Combat plays a VERY big part in this game, and unlike some (most) other MMORPGs it's combat with consequences - no respawning with all your items and gold rubbish.
Sort it out!!!

yes, i agree. it was asked on the oficial thread about that poll, and it seems that it just didnt make it into the top 5 pvp preferences of the one that made the poll. it sucks.

UO should be there too, although i guess they are focussing just on last year.

elvigy · December 2005

That seems odd, since Eve is always rated the best game out of all of them on the main page. So there are enough players to rate it best in that poll, but not enough players to even get it in the top 5 of the PvP poll?

theanimedude · December 2005

you know what... DAoC and GW have better PvP... so bite the dust EVE fanboys ::::40::

Darkchronic · December 2005

Originally posted by theanimedude
you know what... DAoC and GW have better PvP... so bite the dust EVE fanboys

Erm, Guild Wars has horrible PvP, just killing the other 4 people in the team doesn't count as good. Ummm, I can't actually remember what I voted for for best PvP, I think it was DAoC.

elvigy · December 2005

Originally posted by theanimedude

you know what... DAoC and GW have better PvP... so bite the dust EVE fanboys

Just for the record, and I know you're being kind of tongue in cheek, but I played Eve for a month and quit because I thought it was boring, so no fanboy here. But I've kind of figured it out and wasn't thinking when I first posted my comment above. The votes on best game on the main page are from the readers, and the nominations for best PvP came from the mmorpg.com staff, to be voted on by the readers. So the Eve-ites are just sol in the PvP category.

Dinivan · December 2005

From all the mmorpgs out in the market, I would have voted eve-online as the mmorpg with best pvp. Configuration of spaceships, tactics, corporation wars etc. are incredible. But from the list they gave... DAoC is by far the best one.

moonfog · December 2005

Originally posted by scaramoosh

Originally posted by moonfog

What list are you talking about the games list on mmorpg.com?
Also EVE has a pretty low (25-30k) community, so it cant compete with "readers Choice" as players from the other games with higher player numbers vote for there game naturally.

75k

That might be 75k registered users (like WoW with its 5million), but I am looking at actual active players. And Eve had a record of 19.486 as its BEST. lol, its a small small communily in a huge universe.

Volkmar · December 2005

Originally posted by moonfog

Originally posted by scaramoosh

Originally posted by moonfog

What list are you talking about the games list on mmorpg.com?
Also EVE has a pretty low (25-30k) community, so it cant compete with "readers Choice" as players from the other games with higher player numbers vote for there game naturally.

75k

That might be 75k registered users (like WoW with its 5million), but I am looking at actual active players. And Eve had a record of 19.486 as its BEST. lol, its a small small communily in a huge universe.

that is not active community, that is people online at the SAME MOMENT.

A bit like a server of a normal mmorpg can keep around 15k people but only 3-4k will be online at a peak time.

Can't really say what else one would use if not active subscriptions. surely there are "sleeper" accounts, but hey! if they are not playing, why in heaven are they paying for?

Spoonthieve · December 2005

Originally posted by scaramoosh
Originally posted by moonfog
What list are you talking about the games list on mmorpg.com?
Also EVE has a pretty low (25-30k) community, so it cant compete with "readers Choice" as players from the other games with higher player numbers vote for there game naturally.75k

recently hit over 100k.

moonfog · December 2005

And were are you guys getting these numbers from? Give us a link.

Anyways lets say they announce 100k. That is still "sales numbers" and not how many ppl are actively playing the game.

And the guy 2 above mentioning paying numbers? LMAO. And were you get that information from?

Adskitl · December 2005

The number of active paying members is around the 105K mark.

The peak concurrent user hit 20,400 a week or two ago. This is a fifth of the total players all on a single shard (EVE is a one shard game)

This is equivalent to 1 million WoW players all connecting to the same server.

Yes, EVE does have the best PvP experience of any game I've played (I've been playing EVE for just over two weeks), the consequences and risk of losing your ship (and even your pod) always gets my heart pounding when I start PvP.

The best PvP is not the most involving, or the most complex. It is the one that has the biggest effect on the player both in game and in RL.

Acol · December 2005

Originally posted by moonfog
And were are you guys getting these numbers from? Give us a link.
Anyways lets say they announce 100k. That is still "sales numbers" and not how many ppl are actively playing the game.
And the guy 2 above mentioning paying numbers? LMAO. And were you get that information from?

100k Subs Announcement

Peak Concurrent User barrier broken Scroll down to find 19k User news item. Note: That they have actually broken 21k concurrent users last week. And yes thats actually 21, 000 separate accounts all connected into a single persistant world which is a world record btw.

Gameloading · December 2005

and here people forget the REASON why to Pvp. the reason to play pvp is competition. so, in my oppinion, the game that would get close to the number 1 pvp game would be the game that has pvp combat that requirest the most skill, so EVE will be all the way on the bottem since its still who has the most ubar ship. and the numbers one would be shared place between Guild wars, and, believe it or not, World of warcraft.

World of warcraft brings PvP to a next level. you can clearly see those that "know how to play" and those that don't. tough levels are still important, its very normal for a lvl 60 to lose to a lvl 52. this is all because of the moving combat. it has never been more important, with the exception on Guild Wars, Which skill to use, where to use it, when to use it and how to use it.

many people fail to see this because a lot of people think pvp should be about losing exp, taking all items, destroying the opponents character. call me a carebear, but for me pvp means competition, not about getting or losing items or exp, so for me World of Warcraft and Guild wars are on top of the list because they require, unlike games like EVE, skill to play in PVP.

pyrofreak · December 2005

You guys at mmorpg.com know, that by eliminating choices that people would rather make.. it really isn't a reader's choice award when some readers can't choose their choice?

Adskitl · December 2005

Originally posted by Gameloading

and here people forget the REASON why to Pvp. the reason to play pvp is competition. so, in my oppinion, the game that would get close to the number 1 pvp game would be the game that has pvp combat that requirest the most skill, so EVE will be all the way on the bottem since its still who has the most ubar ship. and the numbers one would be shared place between Guild wars, and, believe it or not, World of warcraft.
World of warcraft brings PvP to a next level. you can clearly see those that "know how to play" and those that don't. tough levels are still important, its very normal for a lvl 60 to lose to a lvl 52. this is all because of the moving combat. it has never been more important, with the exception on Guild Wars, Which skill to use, where to use it, when to use it and how to use it.
many people fail to see this because a lot of people think pvp should be about losing exp, taking all items, destroying the opponents character. call me a carebear, but for me pvp means competition, not about getting or losing items or exp, so for me World of Warcraft and Guild wars are on top of the list because they require, unlike games like EVE, skill to play in PVP.

Sorry, but that's just plain wrong.

I started out pirating with a group of other newbs, the only things we had were frigates (a Merlin, two rifters and a suicide kessie) and we were pirating cruisers worth 15-20x the value of our ships.

Sure, in a 1v1 fight an experienced cruiser pilot will destroy a newb T1 frigate pilot, but the same pilot will lose against 3 or 4 such frigates because of the frigates superior speed and small electronic signature. The cruisers guns will simply be unable to keep up with the multiple smaller ships.

It's not about who has the most uber ship, it's very much a case of "size doesn't matter, it's how you use it that counts". Show me in WoW a place where four lvl2 charectors can beat a lvl60.

Yes, there is a lot of danger for new players here, and they WILL get blown away (I lost 16 ships on my 14 day trial), but they know the dangers when they enter. There is no hand-holding carebear tactics for new players. If they want to venture outside the secure regions of space, then they can and will be shot at.

daveospice · December 2005

don't care about the system.

It's so flawed it's pathetic.

For instance, WoW has the largest following of any game, so there's an extremely good chance (since mostly everynoe has tried WoW) that it will get a larger sum of the votes.

Shadowbane, having an extremely large learning curve can't be seen objectively until you've learned it which most people are turned off right away.

So if there's 1000 people who've played WoW who've voted, and only 100 of them have played shadowbane WoW will win even if the 100 people voted for shadowbane giving it a 100% conversion rate.

Cleffy · December 2005

I'm wondering why NC Soft and Gravity were left off the list of best mmorpg company. Both companies offer industry leading customer service, and both companies produce content and games the fastest with monthly to bi-monthly content updates.

Gameloading · December 2005

Originally posted by Adskitl
Originally posted by Gameloading
and here people forget the REASON why to Pvp. the reason to play pvp is competition. so, in my oppinion, the game that would get close to the number 1 pvp game would be the game that has pvp combat that requirest the most skill, so EVE will be all the way on the bottem since its still who has the most ubar ship. and the numbers one would be shared place between Guild wars, and, believe it or not, World of warcraft.
World of warcraft brings PvP to a next level. you can clearly see those that "know how to play" and those that don't. tough levels are still important, its very normal for a lvl 60 to lose to a lvl 52. this is all because of the moving combat. it has never been more important, with the exception on Guild Wars, Which skill to use, where to use it, when to use it and how to use it.
many people fail to see this because a lot of people think pvp should be about losing exp, taking all items, destroying the opponents character. call me a carebear, but for me pvp means competition, not about getting or losing items or exp, so for me World of Warcraft and Guild wars are on top of the list because they require, unlike games like EVE, skill to play in PVP.
Sorry, but that's just plain wrong.
I started out pirating with a group of other newbs, the only things we had were frigates (a Merlin, two rifters and a suicide kessie) and we were pirating cruisers worth 15-20x the value of our ships.
Sure, in a 1v1 fight an experienced cruiser pilot will destroy a newb T1 frigate pilot, but the same pilot will lose against 3 or 4 such frigates because of the frigates superior speed and small electronic signature. The cruisers guns will simply be unable to keep up with the multiple smaller ships.
It's not about who has the most uber ship, it's very much a case of "size doesn't matter, it's how you use it that counts". Show me in WoW a place where four lvl2 charectors can beat a lvl60.
Yes, there is a lot of danger for new players here, and they WILL get blown away (I lost 16 ships on my 14 day trial), but they know the dangers when they enter. There is no hand-holding carebear tactics for new players. If they want to venture outside the secure regions of space, then they can and will be shot at.

lets take another look at it.

If a Pro tells a newbie exactly what to do in pvp in EVE, then the newbie will indeed win the fight
if a Pro tells a newbie exactly what to do in pvp in WoW, then the newbie would still be slaughtered.

(Have tested this myself)

EVE doesn't get further with skills then click a few things, while in WoW you first need to get an entire feeling of the class and movement.

Indo · December 2005

Originally posted by Dinivan

From all the mmorpgs out in the market, I would have voted eve-online as the mmorpg with best pvp. Configuration of spaceships, tactics, corporation wars etc. are incredible.

Aye- EVE's PvP as you described it is incredible - it's just that it's incredible for less than 1% of the time.

Kalza · December 2005

Originally posted by Gameloading
and here people forget the REASON why to Pvp. the reason to play pvp is competition. so, in my oppinion, the game that would get close to the number 1 pvp game would be the game that has pvp combat that requirest the most skill, so EVE will be all the way on the bottem since its still who has the most ubar ship. and the numbers one would be shared place between Guild wars, and, believe it or not, World of warcraft.
World of warcraft brings PvP to a next level. you can clearly see those that "know how to play" and those that don't. tough levels are still important, its very normal for a lvl 60 to lose to a lvl 52. this is all because of the moving combat. it has never been more important, with the exception on Guild Wars, Which skill to use, where to use it, when to use it and how to use it.
many people fail to see this because a lot of people think pvp should be about losing exp, taking all items, destroying the opponents character. call me a carebear, but for me pvp means competition, not about getting or losing items or exp, so for me World of Warcraft and Guild wars are on top of the list because they require, unlike games like EVE, skill to play in PVP.

I'd imagine people have different reasons to pvp.
Personally I do it because it's more exciting than monster bashing, and more meaning is applied to it if you and you're friends are pitting yourselves against other human beings.

I've played EVE, Guild Wars, and WoW since their releases (WoW and GW since their betas). Out of the three I would definately say EVE is more pvp oriented. The reasons:

If you remove PVP from the other two games, they're not really changed that much.
PVP in GW is simply a gang of people you've never met in an arena vs another gang of people you've never met...gang with the least deaths wins. Then you go back to the actual game. It's completely seperate from the rest of the game, almost like a mini game. You cannot PVP when in a town or when on quests; and the quests take up most of the game.

WoW can function fine without the pvp, as other servers are not pvp orientated...although do contain consentual pvp. I would say it is mainly a pve driven game myself, although I would burn out much quicker in it without the pvp aspects. I would NOT say WoW brings PVP to the next level by any means, I do not think it offers anything particularly innovative. Battlegrounds was different, but it seems to be basically a big game of capture the flag...I can do that in Unreal Tournament. At least Battlegrounds does have a slight ingame impact in the sense that if you win or lose you gain honour and items, wheras before a skirmish or a raid, although fun, was absolutely meaningless - as it is in GW.

Eve doesn't function like the other games in the fact that the progression/storyline is player driven. It's not progressed through one big storyline like GW, or a huge intricate mass of quests from WoW. Any kind of roleplay politics that has any clout is done through pvp. Any kind of territorial claiming is done through pvp. Mercenary contracts and pirate bounties are done through pvp. There are corp wars, alliance wars and complete free for alls - you can speak to your enemies unlike WoW wheras there is a strict faction boundry; this makes PVP in eve personal. Unless it's your business or you were in a funny mood, you most likely killed someone because you have something against them. It is not instanced, it's not brushed off to the side, it is right there all the time; I have honestly known people early on in the game to delete their characters and start over after being hunted by a pirate corperation. This is pvp driven. This could not happen in GW. A horde could harass an alliance continually, but they wouldn't be able to communicate and all they would really be doing would be causing a hinderance to grinding.

I understand that people may feel (and it has been dubbed 'Crime Online' by the disgruntled) that pvp and other forms of 'griefing' leading to someone losing things they've worked for and ultimately making it pointless for them to play is not ideal. But it adds a depth and realism that WoW and GW are lacking, and it does this through pvp. That you could lose something of real value gives you real fear, not a temporary annoyance distracting you from grinding or embarresment that someone beat you in front of your friends.

I think our different views on to what extent these games contain and utilize pvp comes down to our different views on pvp itself...
From what you've said it seems to me that you're much more interested in winning or losing, and you don't want any consequences of that.
I'm not there to win or prove myself to anyone (which is probably one of the reasons why I suck and lose in most games I play)- I just don't have that kind of testosterone readily available :S so instead I'm there to do my role, support my friends (or hide behind them) and kill our enemies...and hopefully keep myself intact while doing so...particularly in eve.

I would actually say eve requires more skill both to learn to play and pvp. I have never mastered pvp in eve because I believe to do so you need a fairly good idea of math and physics...and also just exactly what the things on your ship do and how they compliment eachother; there are many variables at every step. It's not enough to realise that guns go in the top, shields in the middle, and armour at the bottom, then orbit at optimal range and activate your modules...I know this, because I do this and can't hit the broad side of a barn. To be fair I haven't mastered pvp in WoW or GW either, particularly not GW but I do fairly well in WoW and have pvp'd with most classes.

When it comes down to it, EVE, WoW and GW all pretty much use the same combat mechanism...You press a button, and the button does something. It's not hand eye co-ordination like a fps - hand eye co-ordination seems more 'skill' based to me. I think things like reflexes and reacting quickly to the situation are pretty general to all combat. You can move your character about in GW, move your ship about in EVE and move and jump your character about in WoW. But the important thing is to know what the hell you're doing - what button you're pressing when. The cry of 'know your class' in WoW is applicable to 'know your ship' in EVE. The type of skill that it comes down to in my opinion is intellegence. And due to it's complexity, in my experience of all three, I would say EVE requires more skill than WoW and GW, not less.

Kalza · December 2005

If a Pro tells a newbie exactly what to do in pvp in EVE, then the newbie will indeed win the fight
if a Pro tells a newbie exactly what to do in pvp in WoW, then the newbie would still be slaughtered.

(Have tested this myself)

EVE doesn't get further with skills then click a few things, while in WoW you first need to get an entire feeling of the class and movement.

By your standards, after 2 and a half years of playing and owning 'ubar' ships and skills...I'm a pro in eve - not a newbie. Then...If skill itself is not involved, why do *I* still get slaughtered on 1 vs 1s? I fully admit I'm crap, but by your argument individual skill in eve shouldn't make a difference.

Plus I've told, and have seen people tell newbies what to do in both pvp and pve in eve in terms of set ups, they still often come home crying. I get tips all the time in eve and still suck.

That said, I get tips in WoW...Someone gave me a pretty exact formula for how to win rogue vs mage in pvp...makes no difference to me, I still mess it up. But I find WoW the easier game generally, and have definatley had a higher 1vs1 success rate in it - despite being bad at pvp in both games.

I think in both games, an experienced player telling the newbie what to equip and what to do DOES NOT WORK IN EVERY SITUATION. I think aptitude in pvp is something that only kicks in after experiencing it themselves enough that they actually LEARN. Although obviously some people are just better at it than others, in both games.

sleepyguyftl · December 2005

Originally posted by Sarmaul
Any particular reason why EVE-Online isn't up for the PVP award, dispite it having quite possibly the best PVP implemtation in an MMORPG at this time? Combat plays a VERY big part in this game, and unlike some (most) other MMORPGs it's combat with consequences - no respawning with all your items and gold rubbish.Sort it out!!!

There were lots of games that didn't get on that survey that should of. The Matrix Online should of been there for storyline also.

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2005 Readers Choice Awards

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2005 Readers Choice Awards

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