I think interdependence misses the point. MMORPGs aren't nor should they be about interdependence, they are about interrelating. They are about voluntary communication and cooperation. If you want people to behave in a certain way, you create an environment that is conducive to the kind of behavior you are trying to encourage. People don't like to feel forced, yet that is exactly what interdependancy is about. When people are forced to do something they don't want to do they try and meet the bare minimum requirements and not an inch further. That is why you get people acting like assholes to each other in group, because they aren't in the group because they want to be they are in that group because they feel it is the only way to achieve their goals in the game so they are going to put as little effort into it as possible so they can hurry up and be done with this arbitrary requirement that has been forced on them.
I believe games that launch with multiple servers should attempt to separate differently minded players right at the start. Label some servers as 'Friendly' while labeling others as 'Hardcore'. This way players only have themselves to blame if they ended up having to do content with people they don't like.
Once players are separated into like minded groups, everyone will want to start grouping again and we can get to working on building stronger communities and better games.
There already sort of is that, "PVP" is your "Hardcore", and "PVE" is your "Friendly". That is generally how it goes in most MMOs, but some people like to roll on PVP servers despite this and complain about it.
Financially, the answer is fairly obvious. If it made better financial sense for developers to go the interdependence route, they would.
This is THE response. Developers do not want my money because they have all the money from those that enjoy solo play. There's more of "them" than there are of "us."
That's sad, for me, but I've come to accept it
What is most sad for me is they have a vast collection of other games that are solo oriented, I don't have as large of a selection when it comes to multiplayer games more focused on player interdependence. Sadly they seem to be a niche nowadays and leaves us old timey MMO players waiting around on the sidelines for something new to come out that reminds us of the games we enjoyed so much before.
What I find really interesting is that for other regions like Korea for example, their MMOs are all more focused on group play, even while leveling, because players like to hang out in internet cafes and play with their friends. So when those games get ported over here, they either don't resonate well with NA players because the norm nowadays is pretty much to level alone (and leveling is too difficult alone), or most often they try to "Westernize" them and in the process end up ruining the fun parts of the game and they just become a monotonous grind by yourself.
All the negatives people are posting were actually what made mmo's of old good.
its the internal nerf hammer, balance crying attitudes that are ruining mmo's today, there is nothing wrong with having unbalanced classes, if the point is to make people group, that in fact is a benefit, well IMO.
Nice article. It really points to the fact that people play MMO's for different rerasons and find different aspects about them fun. One mans treasure is another mans garbage and all that. For many of us the social aspects of the games and the communities they fosteredf were the fun parts. Figuring out our role, figuring out how to work within the community, of how to get groups to work together well, rp-ing.... THAT was the fun part. We enjoyed the adversity of corpse runs, etc....everything else was secondary. For others it was all about progressing thier characters, of burning through content.... so anything that stood in the way of that was an annoyance not fun. Hence they didn't want any of the things that we found fun about games.
I'm not sure it's really accurate to say there are more of them then us.....look at all the social networking sites for example. However they were much easier and simpler to appeal to for Dev's, much easier to make a game that was fun for them. The Dev's knew how to do it, it was low hanging fruit. On the other hand making a game with GOOD interdependance, good community, good social interaction.....that's really tough and complicated for a Dev to do....and not even entirely within the Dev's control as they can put all the elements in place and if they don't happen to get a good player base things can turn sour anyway. It's much more challenging to get that right.....so no surprise the Dev's would chase after the low hanging fruit instead.
Your articles are frustrating to read. You turn a blind eye to so much that went on, is going on, just to make a point.
Interdependence is alive and well. Leveling up can be done solo, but the meta game is all about grouping. Take FFXIV for example; yes you can be all things with one character, but to actually do all things with one character is such a monumental task that it encourages you to buy and trade with others. Leveling is just a drop in the bucket now compared to older mmos and the interdependence flourishes at endgame.
Something you did not mention was that older mmos which limited your choices with one character only spawned countless alts and people with multiple accounts. How exactly did that help community when everyone had a dozen characters that could fulfill every need? Armies of alts so that you didnt have to depend on anyone.
Id prefer it the way it is now simply because a community can grow from players being compelled to stick around with one character. I didnt have to know all of Joe's 27 alts in order to see what he was up to. At least now, you can feel like you're progressing the way you want with one character, which creates more permanence in the game world, which helps build that precious community.
Then the second half of your post tangents off into downtime which isnt really about what you were talking about. Just seemed like a side rant that should have been edited out tbh.
Im just saying all this junk because these are topics that are actually interesting to discuss but just like every other trollish thread about it on the main forums, we get official columns that arent much better than the lopsided bait threads we see every day.
Anyway, keep up with the writing and it will improve. And thank you for sharing.
Well for being such a hard task, when I bought it a couple of weeks ago and played, there were a lot of people in there that had everything mastered. That is not any way shape or form independence. You clearly have never played SWG. You go out and battle by your self, and you are forced to come back to find some one to heal your battle wounds. The word there is forced. In final fantasy you arent forced to do anything, but maybe watch the starting move over and over if you make more then one character. Since you can be every class, and do everything, there is no reason to buy anything. The only thing left would be the people who hate that grind so.... Then you got the groups for killing bigger stuff. Again this isnt being forced on you.
In SWG, UO, EQ. There was no way to play the game unless you grouped up with people and got along with them. That guy talking about putting every one with different mind states on different servers is crap lol. What happened to learning how to get along with people. All this easy mode garbage of you can block the whole server and it doesnt matter. Because you are never ever gonna need to work with a person you dont like........ BLAH I am going back to SWGEMU lol. See you anti social people later.......
All the negatives people are posting were actually what made mmo's of old good.
its the internal nerf hammer, balance crying attitudes that are ruining mmo's today, there is nothing wrong with having unbalanced classes, if the point is to make people group, that in fact is a benefit, well IMO.
Well, they are for me anyways, I viewed them as challenges to overcome or persevere through, but many posters here would firmly disagree.
Interdependence sometimes has to be somewhat forced, in order to gain cooperation and ensure the mechanic works as intended. But people aren't much for doing things that way anymore.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All the negatives people are posting were actually what made mmo's of old good.
its the internal nerf hammer, balance crying attitudes that are ruining mmo's today, there is nothing wrong with having unbalanced classes, if the point is to make people group, that in fact is a benefit, well IMO.
Well, they are for me anyways, I viewed them as challenges to overcome or persevere through, but many posters here would firmly disagree.
Interdependence sometimes has to be somewhat forced, in order to gain cooperation and ensure the mechanic works as intended. But people aren't much for doing things that way anymore.
All those negatives people are posting about, are negatives for the People Posting....
I'm sympathetic to folks who can't find a game or game style that they'd prefer to play. That sucks. But the continual 'Back when games were good' or 'When True MMO Gamers ruled the world' type comments just makes me want to whack people with the nerfhammer. It's fine to prefer a style of game, but the One True Way stuff is just irritating.
And all those old games changed their ways for real reasons.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
All the negatives people are posting were actually what made mmo's of old good.
its the internal nerf hammer, balance crying attitudes that are ruining mmo's today, there is nothing wrong with having unbalanced classes, if the point is to make people group, that in fact is a benefit, well IMO.
Well, they are for me anyways, I viewed them as challenges to overcome or persevere through, but many posters here would firmly disagree.
Interdependence sometimes has to be somewhat forced, in order to gain cooperation and ensure the mechanic works as intended. But people aren't much for doing things that way anymore.
Not at all. To gain cooperation you need neither interdependence nor do you need to force people. It is simply that designing a system that forces people is far easier than developing a system that encourages people(and is effective). It isn't the only option it is simply the lazy developer option. Players need to engage in ways they enjoy, they need to communicate and cooperate on their own terms, forcing this kind of interaction just ends up with negative interactions and a bad community to boot.
I like the old system where we were dependent on one another. What happened to crafting being a Class of its own too? Instead of it being a bunch of extra skills? Did WoW just ruin that for us trader like players? I havent seen a game with great crafting since WoW delivered it as a secondary skill.
I miss Ultima Online where a crafter was a crafter. A blacksmith needed certain skills in order to thrive. I also miss the days when crafted goods were better or on par with the best of the best Magic PvM rewards. Now a days, the crafted Goods need someone that PvMs to get Mats and schematics. Why? Why can't a crafter just craft? Why cant we learns skills, create our own schematics and allow players to come up with rare schematics by fiddling with things and experimenting? Allow crafters to actually be the only gear people need.
What? No shiny uber gear for the end of a raid? Yeah! I said it! Why can't the reward for a raid be something that is just for aesthetics? A rare mount that people can ride? Something other than a shiny uber death spear of craziness that takes away from the trading class?
I dont know. I feel jaded with the "quick" and the "fast" methods. I want to interact. MMOs. Leave the solo games to players who like playing solo games. Leave MMOs alone.
This article is based on a logical fallacy. That all MMOs were made the same. They were not.
You could solo 100% of the original MMO with graphics, Never Winter Nights Online, same with Meridian 59. You could solo almost all of Ultima Online. You could solo all but the bosses and some elites in Asherons Call 1 and near the same with Anarchy Online. Star Wars Galaxies? Soloable. you have to toss almost every MMO out in order to base it on Everquest and DaoCs forced group content.
It is not that games have changed, its the perception of players and basically much of the people just plain getting sick and tired of the elitist end game players demanding that games become a job and sick of waiting around for hours forming a group. So more are choosing to forgo the bad sides that many just plain delt with 10 years ago.
Few people want to play an MMO for 6-8 hours a day anymore and even if they do, many don't want to deal with other peoples BS anymore.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by makasouleater69 Well for being such a hard task, when I bought it a couple of weeks ago and played, there were a lot of people in there that had everything mastered. That is not any way shape or form independence. You clearly have never played SWG. You go out and battle by your self, and you are forced to come back to find some one to heal your battle wounds. The word there is forced. In final fantasy you arent forced to do anything, but maybe watch the starting move over and over if you make more then one character. Since you can be every class, and do everything, there is no reason to buy anything. The only thing left would be the people who hate that grind so.... Then you got the groups for killing bigger stuff. Again this isnt being forced on you. In SWG, UO, EQ. There was no way to play the game unless you grouped up with people and got along with them. That guy talking about putting every one with different mind states on different servers is crap lol. What happened to learning how to get along with people. All this easy mode garbage of you can block the whole server and it doesnt matter. Because you are never ever gonna need to work with a person you dont like........ BLAH I am going back to SWGEMU lol. See you anti social people later.......
/sigh
If you had an idea about the time you need to be 100% independent in ffxiv, you'd realize why the market is so active. I can barely keep my retainers stocked. Its because the time it takes to get every class to fifty is short compared to the time it takes to actually do everything yourself.
I played SWG as well, from beta to shutdown. Most dancers and docs were running a macro afk. That was a design flaw in the game. You didnt need to socialize with anyone in that game. People chose to be social just like most mmos. Theres no magical game mechanic that makes people all chatty and buddy buddy.
Its all about the people and how they want to play a game. The more stuff a game has, the more opportunities for interaction, and conversely non-interaction there is. Its up to the players to decide.
In my personal experience, the people who shout for community are typically not the same people hard at work actually building one.
I think that the majority of players these days are all about the self-centric games that are a dime a dozen. Just because MMOs have become popular, doesn't mean that's a good thing. Before WoW and it's horde of RTS players, MMOs were a small niche community of the gaming universe. I still believe that older MMOs would be deemed a failure if they were launched today. You would get most of the older MMO players to flock to it in droves, but this is only about maybe 500,000 players? Very few of us would like to sit at a computer for hours chopping down trees, then spend another hour cutting them into planks, and then trading with others to get the materials needed to make useful items, AND then finally turning said planks and traded items into something useful I'm one of the few that would love a game like this, but I know I'll never see another game like it. There's just no money to be made in making a game like that. The closest thing I can get to this is cooking/fishing in WoW. My friends always wonder how I can sit there and fish for 4 hours in the middle of the night just to make banquets and food for the guild. I always tell them, this is nothing compared to old MMOs XD
NIce article and true words spoken. I remember the old days when i used to search 20-30 mins for a specific class for hunting/instances, but now ppl just open another session of the game or if they have another pc, 2 more sessions and they are self sufficient. And i ask them "why the hell you play a mmo solo?" and i get the simple answers like "i like to farm solo after work and relax" or "i get to keep all the loot". But hey, everybody can play their own way.
Interdependence isn't inherently good or bad. But, unfortunately, no game has ever managed to implement it in a manner where the good outweighed the bad. Pretty much categorically, the ways different MMOs have tried to create interdependency have reduced what I would refer to as the "fun efficiency" of those games. Ideally, when you have five hours to spend on a given day to play a game, you should end up having five hours of fun. Because that is the point of games.
It isn't fun when, in the name of creating an interdependent community, you make it impossible to progress without other people. And that isn't because there is anything bad about interacting with other people, it's because most of the time, in most games, you aren't going to be able to find exactly the people you need, at the time that you need them, both willing and competent to help with the content you want to experience.
If, instead of having five hours of fun, you spend an hour putting together a group, another hour trying to complete content while weak links in the group cause you to wipe repeatedly, another hour reforming a group after people quit in frustration or run out of time to play in the first group, followed by two hours to finally finish the one hour of content you were going after in the first place, that is not a very efficient pursuit of fun.
Is it good design in a multiplayer game to make it so all content can be soloed? Of course not. But enough of the content needs to be soloable that the player is *never* in the position where his only options are to sit around accomplishing nothing while waiting/looking for participation from other players, or logout and not play at all. As much as I loved the idea of the original EverQuest, it represented an incredibly wrong-headed design philosophy, and it is very good for the industry and for players that the idea of making everything interdependent is functionally dead and buried. If you want people to interact with each other, make it so the experience of playing the game is more fun that way, rather than making it mandatory even when it is clearly not fun.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Comments
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
There already sort of is that, "PVP" is your "Hardcore", and "PVE" is your "Friendly". That is generally how it goes in most MMOs, but some people like to roll on PVP servers despite this and complain about it.
What is most sad for me is they have a vast collection of other games that are solo oriented, I don't have as large of a selection when it comes to multiplayer games more focused on player interdependence. Sadly they seem to be a niche nowadays and leaves us old timey MMO players waiting around on the sidelines for something new to come out that reminds us of the games we enjoyed so much before.
What I find really interesting is that for other regions like Korea for example, their MMOs are all more focused on group play, even while leveling, because players like to hang out in internet cafes and play with their friends. So when those games get ported over here, they either don't resonate well with NA players because the norm nowadays is pretty much to level alone (and leveling is too difficult alone), or most often they try to "Westernize" them and in the process end up ruining the fun parts of the game and they just become a monotonous grind by yourself.
just about this picture.... we need back chat bubbles.
chat channels ruin immersion and community. its like playing 2 different parts of a game. the game and the cha.
All the negatives people are posting were actually what made mmo's of old good.
its the internal nerf hammer, balance crying attitudes that are ruining mmo's today, there is nothing wrong with having unbalanced classes, if the point is to make people group, that in fact is a benefit, well IMO.
www.Immortals-mmo.co.uk
Nice article. It really points to the fact that people play MMO's for different rerasons and find different aspects about them fun. One mans treasure is another mans garbage and all that. For many of us the social aspects of the games and the communities they fosteredf were the fun parts. Figuring out our role, figuring out how to work within the community, of how to get groups to work together well, rp-ing.... THAT was the fun part. We enjoyed the adversity of corpse runs, etc....everything else was secondary. For others it was all about progressing thier characters, of burning through content.... so anything that stood in the way of that was an annoyance not fun. Hence they didn't want any of the things that we found fun about games.
I'm not sure it's really accurate to say there are more of them then us.....look at all the social networking sites for example. However they were much easier and simpler to appeal to for Dev's, much easier to make a game that was fun for them. The Dev's knew how to do it, it was low hanging fruit. On the other hand making a game with GOOD interdependance, good community, good social interaction.....that's really tough and complicated for a Dev to do....and not even entirely within the Dev's control as they can put all the elements in place and if they don't happen to get a good player base things can turn sour anyway. It's much more challenging to get that right.....so no surprise the Dev's would chase after the low hanging fruit instead.
Well for being such a hard task, when I bought it a couple of weeks ago and played, there were a lot of people in there that had everything mastered. That is not any way shape or form independence. You clearly have never played SWG. You go out and battle by your self, and you are forced to come back to find some one to heal your battle wounds. The word there is forced. In final fantasy you arent forced to do anything, but maybe watch the starting move over and over if you make more then one character. Since you can be every class, and do everything, there is no reason to buy anything. The only thing left would be the people who hate that grind so.... Then you got the groups for killing bigger stuff. Again this isnt being forced on you.
In SWG, UO, EQ. There was no way to play the game unless you grouped up with people and got along with them. That guy talking about putting every one with different mind states on different servers is crap lol. What happened to learning how to get along with people. All this easy mode garbage of you can block the whole server and it doesnt matter. Because you are never ever gonna need to work with a person you dont like........ BLAH I am going back to SWGEMU lol. See you anti social people later.......
Well, they are for me anyways, I viewed them as challenges to overcome or persevere through, but many posters here would firmly disagree.
Interdependence sometimes has to be somewhat forced, in order to gain cooperation and ensure the mechanic works as intended. But people aren't much for doing things that way anymore.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All those negatives people are posting about, are negatives for the People Posting....
I'm sympathetic to folks who can't find a game or game style that they'd prefer to play. That sucks. But the continual 'Back when games were good' or 'When True MMO Gamers ruled the world' type comments just makes me want to whack people with the nerfhammer. It's fine to prefer a style of game, but the One True Way stuff is just irritating.
And all those old games changed their ways for real reasons.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Not at all. To gain cooperation you need neither interdependence nor do you need to force people. It is simply that designing a system that forces people is far easier than developing a system that encourages people(and is effective). It isn't the only option it is simply the lazy developer option. Players need to engage in ways they enjoy, they need to communicate and cooperate on their own terms, forcing this kind of interaction just ends up with negative interactions and a bad community to boot.
I like the old system where we were dependent on one another. What happened to crafting being a Class of its own too? Instead of it being a bunch of extra skills? Did WoW just ruin that for us trader like players? I havent seen a game with great crafting since WoW delivered it as a secondary skill.
I miss Ultima Online where a crafter was a crafter. A blacksmith needed certain skills in order to thrive. I also miss the days when crafted goods were better or on par with the best of the best Magic PvM rewards. Now a days, the crafted Goods need someone that PvMs to get Mats and schematics. Why? Why can't a crafter just craft? Why cant we learns skills, create our own schematics and allow players to come up with rare schematics by fiddling with things and experimenting? Allow crafters to actually be the only gear people need.
What? No shiny uber gear for the end of a raid? Yeah! I said it! Why can't the reward for a raid be something that is just for aesthetics? A rare mount that people can ride? Something other than a shiny uber death spear of craziness that takes away from the trading class?
I dont know. I feel jaded with the "quick" and the "fast" methods. I want to interact. MMOs. Leave the solo games to players who like playing solo games. Leave MMOs alone.
This article is based on a logical fallacy. That all MMOs were made the same. They were not.
You could solo 100% of the original MMO with graphics, Never Winter Nights Online, same with Meridian 59. You could solo almost all of Ultima Online. You could solo all but the bosses and some elites in Asherons Call 1 and near the same with Anarchy Online. Star Wars Galaxies? Soloable. you have to toss almost every MMO out in order to base it on Everquest and DaoCs forced group content.
It is not that games have changed, its the perception of players and basically much of the people just plain getting sick and tired of the elitist end game players demanding that games become a job and sick of waiting around for hours forming a group. So more are choosing to forgo the bad sides that many just plain delt with 10 years ago.
Few people want to play an MMO for 6-8 hours a day anymore and even if they do, many don't want to deal with other peoples BS anymore.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
/sigh
If you had an idea about the time you need to be 100% independent in ffxiv, you'd realize why the market is so active. I can barely keep my retainers stocked. Its because the time it takes to get every class to fifty is short compared to the time it takes to actually do everything yourself.
I played SWG as well, from beta to shutdown. Most dancers and docs were running a macro afk. That was a design flaw in the game. You didnt need to socialize with anyone in that game. People chose to be social just like most mmos. Theres no magical game mechanic that makes people all chatty and buddy buddy.
Its all about the people and how they want to play a game. The more stuff a game has, the more opportunities for interaction, and conversely non-interaction there is. Its up to the players to decide.
In my personal experience, the people who shout for community are typically not the same people hard at work actually building one.
Interdependence isn't inherently good or bad. But, unfortunately, no game has ever managed to implement it in a manner where the good outweighed the bad. Pretty much categorically, the ways different MMOs have tried to create interdependency have reduced what I would refer to as the "fun efficiency" of those games. Ideally, when you have five hours to spend on a given day to play a game, you should end up having five hours of fun. Because that is the point of games.
It isn't fun when, in the name of creating an interdependent community, you make it impossible to progress without other people. And that isn't because there is anything bad about interacting with other people, it's because most of the time, in most games, you aren't going to be able to find exactly the people you need, at the time that you need them, both willing and competent to help with the content you want to experience.
If, instead of having five hours of fun, you spend an hour putting together a group, another hour trying to complete content while weak links in the group cause you to wipe repeatedly, another hour reforming a group after people quit in frustration or run out of time to play in the first group, followed by two hours to finally finish the one hour of content you were going after in the first place, that is not a very efficient pursuit of fun.
Is it good design in a multiplayer game to make it so all content can be soloed? Of course not. But enough of the content needs to be soloable that the player is *never* in the position where his only options are to sit around accomplishing nothing while waiting/looking for participation from other players, or logout and not play at all. As much as I loved the idea of the original EverQuest, it represented an incredibly wrong-headed design philosophy, and it is very good for the industry and for players that the idea of making everything interdependent is functionally dead and buried. If you want people to interact with each other, make it so the experience of playing the game is more fun that way, rather than making it mandatory even when it is clearly not fun.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.