Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Is the instant gratification crowd showing up in games you play?
spineshank
Member Posts: 106
I'm currently subscribed to 3 mmos. In every mmo i play i tend to hang around the newer players and try to help them to learn and succeed in the game. About six months ago i started noticiing an disturbing trend among new players, they all want everything the moment they start the game. When i first noticed it, it was a new players here and there. Now, a significant majority of new players i interact with are acting this way. No matter how much time, money, equipment, or information anyone gives them, instead of being grateful, they complain that it isn't enough. And if that wasn't bad enough, they piss'n'moan nonstop about how hard it is to accomplish anything in the games.
I have my own ideas to where this is coming from, but i was just wondering if anyone else is noticing this in games they play also.
There is no best MMORPG, only favorites.
Comments
I have noticed them but I tend to just ignore them, I really dont care to talk to them. Plus if they join my guild and start the thing where I need help, I will give them help, but if they start to be an ass about it I will boot them.
Just ignore them, and you will eventually get use to them..
They funny thing is that most mmo's have gotten harder for new players to start in through nerfs, and an inflation in the economy due to high levels flooding it with goods trying to make money to afford thier high-priced stuff.
Also alot of vets are mean to new players often calling them names, ignoring them, or KSing thier monsters to show off.
I noticed that trend really badly in SWG... unfortunately the Devs did too and started catering to those types of players. ack!
I guess I'm gonna have to be an asshole and ask what's so wrong with wanting everything out of the box? I honestly don't think it's so outlandish to get access to everything in the game right after install. If the only reason you're playing the game is to get more loot and XP so that you can kill bigger monsters and get more loot and XP, then the game is seriously flawed. Good gameplay is it's own reward. It may just be that the players aren't really into this style of play. That's very likely considering that the bulk of PC titles that come out anymore are MMORPGs. Most of the other games we get are console ports. I think there were really only a few original releases for the PC last year and the number is dropping all the time.
Of course, these people could just go turn on the XBox and play Unreal Tournament: Championship 2 or DOA 3 and make both themselves and everyone else happy....
BTW, I was talking about AAA titles, not some of the more outstanding indie titles from small companies like Matrix games and Large Animal Studios.
Props on this comment Jimmy: "Good gameplay is it's own reward."
I guess I would just say that, although I agree and think that is the primary element, there is an element to "growing up."
It's one thing to not have access to all of the elements (i.e. locations, benefits like houses etc) but it's totally different to not have as big of weapons or as much money. It just seems to me that part of the MMO experience is having a real-life aspect to it - and it real life we don't have everything right away.
So there was an alarming growing trend in 'sm1 giv me 2gld pls i need new armorz' shouts etc. I even got a few mass-begging mails, asking to support this or that EQ2 street kid.
But I have seen a *lot* less of that in the last few weeks with their now being no spirit shards, new quest icons and rewards, sooo much more xp, much more hand holding.
Whether this is a good thing, on either side of the coin, is an endless debate. Good for us who can turn it off these options, while also not having to put up with MMObratFTW #45214.
I mean, that thread on this forum started by the guy whining that WoW had too much of a low level grind... WoW... hard from 1-20 or whatever... I mean, come on...
I don't know what background or gaming community people come from to think WoW has any sort of difficulty or grind (unless of course you consider questing in general a grind), but there is a lot of it around.
Even more humorous is assuming that the majority of said folk are 11 years old with WoW+game card for Christmas, when I think it's safe to assume a lot are just not. Bad English skills does not denote a young age.
I play EQ2 (mostly) and WoW, cycling between them while waiting on HJ. I enjoy both the games thoroughly. But I really do have to say I personally think that WoW, in its enjoyably easy, eye candy kind of way, has done a big dis-service to the MMORPG industry. In that people who have come to MMOs with WoW being their first game use that as their benchmark.
And that's '5 million' potential first time MMOers. And probably why EQ2 is now EQ2Lite etc.
I dunno, just my opinion. And I am not claiming anything I wrote is fact etc etc etc.
How I deal with this kind of crap in WoW and EQ2.
Turn off General chat and /shout (and have /say in another tab) in WoW. Turn off ooc and /shout in EQ2. And I make my chat window fade out in EQ2 as well. I just find it a lot more enjoyable that way.
Call my elitist if you want, but just like those 'giv me gld noe so i cn rox0rz!' people, we pay (or their parents do) to play, so we can play it however the f**k we want.
If someone annoys you, use /ignore.
/ignore is the future I think, sadly.
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
This attitude reminds me of EQ players. They think they are elite, because they are dumb enough to spend 30 minutes waiting for mana to regen. 30 minutes waiting and 5 minutes playing. I don't know why they think this is a superior way to play. I'm guessing its their own pathetic excuse to try and justify theirselves.
I, myself, am getting sick of people claiming they are best, they play the best game, there is so much strategy involved in killing this kobold. People claim newbies, kiddies, whatever are wanting everything on a silver platter. When people say that I seriously think they have a inferiority complex.
Games are about gratification. Why delay the main draw to games? If games did not gratify no one would play. The more gratification one recieves the more that game will be played. Of course, if something is handed to it will lose its gratification quality quickly. However, if it takes too long few will stay the course.
MMO vets are sometimes like old people. They see something new and fear it. They say these young whippersnappers have it too easy nowadays. The happier vets will adapt and go with the flow. However, some vets will wallow in how they had to endure buggy boats, run for hours, sit hours for lfg, couldn't wipe their own tush without 5 people holding their hand, etc., and they will become bitter old fools. Luckily, these gamers are far and few between. Most gamers know a timesink from a challenge.
In conclusion, get off your high horse, because I think you are exaggerating quite a bit.
The above post leads me to believe you've never played EQ.
I have 3 casters. A lvl 70 mage, a 70 cleric, and a 65 enchanter. There is -very- little downtime. I can log on, group with some friends and go to a high end XP spot and go for 40-60 minutes without going OOM.
-If- I run out of mana, I just sit for about -five minutes- and I'm ready to go again. That's enough to get up.. stretch my legs.. take a piss. Whatever. God forbid you have a tiny break from a game.
And all this talk of enduring what the hell ever, hell I'm just talking about people two hours out of the newby zone.
Yes, you're correct, it's all about gratification; and getting less and less about the epic challenge.
And this is very sad in my opinion.
But we have some very talented Dev crews working on some projects atm that look very interesting.
So perhaps the future looks brighter for us old, decrepit, like to earn what we have, aren't afraid of a big challenge, can work it out for ourselves and snub those who resort to begging instead of doing it themselves kind of MMO vets.
And I see things and fear it? Sure. I fear that due to your much loved instant gratification that games will come out cloning and dumbing down even WoW to appeal to that market. And they'll sell millions of accounts due to it being so 'accessible', and then companies like Sigil and Simutronics will have to fold to the masses to compete and survive.
Am I being over the top? Well, of course. It's never as bad as people post on the forums, as most the posts (like yours I assume, and rightly so) are made with anger/strong emotion/etc. I'm just taking the opposite line to what you've taken.
But then, I love a bit of drama
In conclusion, get off your high horse, because I think you are exaggerating quite a bit.
- Sadly, not so much.
As the WoW-gen get bored of their masterpiece and filter over to EQ2 (well what other mass market MMO is there atm for them?), that 'Barrens Chat' kind of atmosphere is really becoming apparent in the game.
Sad, but true. If you don't believe me, join the Level_1-9 and Level_10-19 channels during a busy night and listen in. It's Barrens Chat all over again hehe.
But luckily, as I said about ignore, you can turn it off.
Does the /tell begging and RP killing still piss me off?
Sure does.
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
yes and they are the reason IGE and others are open and booming.
i find also that these players love WoW and the lack of real MMO challenge that game has.
i think they are gonna change the MMO market in a negative way.....
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you''re one of the 2% who hasn''t, copy & paste this in your signature.
Is the instant gratification crowd showing up in games you play?
Sadly yes.
Just take a look at http://www.roma-victor.com/faq/#24 or http://www.project-entropia.com/Index.ajp. Ok both of those games are free to install and monthly fee is free.
Then of course you have http://eq2.stationexchange.com/.
Roma Victor / Project Entropia are 2 quite different games, but you can see the trend that is already occuring.
Does no one else find the direction that mmorpgs are heading disturbing? One reason I am looking forward to Vanguard, because the makers are staunch opponents of this type of gaming.
They don't only show up in the games I play, they're everywhere. Instant gratification is the new way of life for a whole group of people. I can't define the type of people it are, just seems some are trying to change the way we live life.
I find the whole thing very disturbing, I'ld prefer those gamers to keep playing the single player games they play with the cheatcodes they have. I'ld prefer mmorpg's to get dissociated from regular games as movies are dissociated from television. It'll pass I hope, the industry is slowly growing into childhood, more things will change. Unfortunatly for the pioneers in online gaming it won't all be for the better, they were already paying for a service they liked.
Multiplayer versions of computer games have been odd for a while. Mmos just grew from being made for a select crowd of outcasts to being made for a broad public. It's the popular thing to do nowadays, and let's face it the life of an outcast is just a little bit more filled with challenges then the life of mr. average. The challenge of a game is different for different people, I've witnessed that with single player games as well.
If ever it can be of any consolation to you, rest assured that you will achieve far more with your attitude then they will with theirs.
-
If you guys call wanting to enjoy playing a game "instant gratification" throw me in the crowd.
you call the people kids then talk about its the reason IGE is taking off. got news for you, kids arent buying gold/in game items. but i understand, since you dont like a game it must be the anti-christ. we know every game that isnt EQ pre, whatever 3 letter expansion came out before you got bored with EQ, just sucks hardcore. we know that killing 1500000000 orcs is way more skillfull then killing 150. we know that sitting around LFG is way more fun then being able to play anytime and get something done.
i've got an idea. go back to the stone age. thats right, throw your comp out the window, give your car away, turn off all your lights, and no more tv/microwave/stove ect. i mean you kids dont want "instant gratification".
It all began when idiots decided they wanted computers too (to pick up chicks with, cheaper than beer). Then they decided they wanted to play games too, while waiting for chicks to say "Hey, wanna cyber" to.
Not long after, people on the net stopped talking like intelligent people and started to sound like drunken 8 year olds.. or a college dorm. No matter age... sounding like an idiot became the way to fit in. Aaaand... developers, in their glorious wisdom and some market research.. came to the conclusion that on one intelligent person.. there are nine idiots. And idiots pay cash for whatever crap you give a glossy cover... so games and gameoriented websites now cater more to them.
Just business... Sollution? Lower the price on beer.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
(Edit: In response to lsutig)
That's a rant.
My personal preference isn't
a) Lots of levelling before you can compete
b) Instant gratification
At least, I don't think it is.
I want to be able to participate meaningfully right from the start - or as soon as I learn the interface and relevant basics. So rather than an easy way to the top, I want a less firmly defined top that can be reached, or competed for, without the best gear/stats. On the other hand, regardless of progress / setbacks, I want to be on my way somewhere, always. Reaching the ultimate top is the end of anything but an MMORPG. To an MMORPG it is the slow painful death, or the transition into pure evil...
Yeah? No. There is the gameplay. Afterall, for some games, gameplay doesn't really start until you reach the top.
But honestly, reduce the gap. (It isn't /the/ prerequisite for a good game, there isn't one. But it would help!)
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
i think being able to buy food from a store is way to instant gratification. we should have to kill our food with our bare hands. cus thats way more hardcore and would make me feel even more elite.
I would like to chime in here.
This isn't about instant gratification. Its stems from 2 main points:
1. MMORPGs going with a PvP theme as opposed to all PvE with little to no PvP otpions.
2. Time available to play
Thats pretty much it. I have been playing MMOs since MUDs. At the time I ws in college and had a lot of spare time to play for long sessions which enabled me to be quite successful. However...I'm 33 now. I have a career, a robust social life and I try to spend as much time with my family as possible. However, my love of online gaming is still strong....My gripe is that there is no game atm, that caters to somone like me. A hardcore, seasoned verteran of MMORPGs who now has lees time to play.
Lets take WoW for example....that game sucks and I will tell you why. First the PvP in the game is linear and shallow. WHere PvP rank is concerned.....if you dont keep playing you lose rank. WHere the high-end gear is concerened, many dont have the time to wait for a 40 man raid to go together, to be told your class isnt right for the group and to argue to be kept in the group....to only have to log out after the first hour because you have obligations. ITs annoying...how can somone with limited time be successful and competitive in an game where the best high-end stuff is totally out of reach? So I cancelled. The game it self is pathetically easy and the combat is easily mastered, but when I take a beating from a guy who can kill me in 2 hits with his Legenadary gear..whats the point in competing?
I never ask for easy mode....I am simply a proponent of making PvP based MMORPGs more freindly to those with limited time to play. I dont care if it takes me a month longer than the lifeless loser 25 yr old who sits in his parents basement in his boxers who only leaves his computer to take a leak and sleep. I just want a game where I can get to all that content on my own in my own time....I have friends that play these games too..but our schedules dont always make it easy to get together online...so it sucks to have time to play but you can do anything becasue you need a group to accomplish anything.
I just think that many of the old schoolers are getting mad becasee a lot of their fire is being taken away. IN a comeptitive environment where PvP is central to the experience. Progression does not need to be fast in a get-it-all-now mentality it just needs to take into account those who prefer to play with their RL friends or solo.
TO be honest there are more like me then there are of those who's whole measure of self-esteem is derived from their status in a video game. MMORPGs will come in line with what we need. I am sure there will be those niche games where only those with 15 hours per day to spare can have a fighting chance to be competitive. The main stream is going a different way.
I'll second this. I'm 33 years old, former-hard-core MUD player, former-hard-core MMO player, who's gone through the years playing the available games. I now have a family and a social life, but still want to play - I just don't have as much time to do it anymore.
From a primarily PvE perspective -
There are no games I've found that allows me to play in any significant or meaningful (to me) way.
Most games get the beginning about right - I normally feel pretty good about the beginning aspect of a game. It's the middle-game that starts to shut me out as it increases the advancement-curve to exponential time-sinks. It becomes very difficult to continue with a game when the majority of the players have out-levelled me, finding groups becomes difficult, and all I have to look forward to is several years of grinding alone. Forget it.
The selling of characters, loots, in-game money, etc has existed since the first commercial game. It's a market that exists for a variety of reasons, and I'm starting to understand some of those reasons more and more on a personal basis. While I don't see myself partaking in this industry due to personal bias (and financial) reasons, I can certainly understand why some people do.
Regards,
Gabriel
And cheers those of you pointing out the time issue. It's not so much about something for nothing, it's about spending your precious time PLAYING the game rather than farming mobs for loot.
So far, the only game that I've played that is even remotely like that is City of Heroes. This was largely due to their search options. I could log into that game and find players in my area of the game, at roughly the same level as me, that were working on the same missions as me. I wish all MMOs had a system like this. And of course, since the game had no loot, you could cut right to the missions..... most of the time. There were a few stretches in the game where you had to farm, but not many. It's not so much playing as a group that kills. It's not being able t find a group that you fit into quickly.
Oh yeah, and grindage.....
The instant gratification crowd is directly correlated to todays societal views. Unless RP servers become the norm, people will continue to play games with their actual personalities. You will still find altruistic helpers, beggers, scammers, friends, idiots and every other cross-section of society within the MMO community. Everyone has the seen the "need-it-now" people, it is not only kids, as it is also those people in the 18-30 yr old range (myself included). This is just how this generation was upraised. Whether good or bad, argue what you want....but whatever trends there are in society, it will be reflected in MMO's. I think anyone who plays MMO's knows what to expect going into the game community wise, always hope for the best but expect the worst.
From my view on things, I will continue to help people new or "need-it-now"...if I give something away, I hope for a "Thx" but dont expect one. Hopefully games that require increased amount of thinking will weed out those who need everything right away, but I highly doubt it. There is just so much information at hand now, people wil be able to get what they need in one way or another.
Effort does not always mean results
Instant/quick results does not always mean no effort was put in
There are some people who put in a lot of effort getting through the PvE content. Effort on their part is the time, skill and determination/competitiveness they are will to put forth in attaining their in-game goals. Now if they do not have a lot of skill then they are going to have to spend a lot more time playing and be very determined in getting through it. Another player might have a lot of skill coming into the game, therefore spending a lot less time on it while being no less determined. They both put forth the same effort, just one got what they wanted quicker.
To be successful in online games (life?) :
If you have: Then you need:
less skill = +time +determination/competitiveness
less time = +skill +determination/competitiveness
less det/comp = no chance for success, you will put forth niether time nor skill, cause you won't care
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
I'm working on a new MMORPG. It will be called Easy Mode, and I think it will outsell WoW.
Inside the box you will get this
and a certificate saying, "Congratulations, you have won at Easy Mode!"
8hammer8 wrote:
If you have: Then you need:
less skill = +time +determination/competitiveness
less time = +skill +determination/competitiveness
less det/comp = no chance for success, you will put forth niether time nor skill, cause you won't care
So what if you're really determined but you have neither time nor skill? Kind of hard to not be deflated when you suck and have no time to get good. Or do you believe that people like that just shouldn't be playing the game?
I really fuckin' hate elitism, in case you can't tell.
I have played MMORPGs since January 2000. As far as I can see, the instant-gratification crowd has always been a part of online gaming.
Overall, it's very Darwinian.
The competitive nature of MMORPGs will produce a kind of natural selection where only the fittest players thrive and survive.
All the others play WoW.
(Geez, I just crack myself up.)
~ Ancient Membership ~