Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Compromised gameplay is one of the biggest reason I don't like F2P/Cash shops. I prefer for things to be available through gameplay and not sold.
Man, I could not agree more. In an age where players are growing tired of the same ol' same ol', this is stuff that could help offer a whole bunch of game play that's different. And add layers of adventure, discovery, whatever that's different from ye ol' level grind.
Yes, this is what I meant to say in my previous post.
But I understand that devs are doing cash shop fluff to survive.
One of the major reasons I hope ESO is successful (besides that I want to play) is that I would like to see a sub model resurrected if it adds to the game and doesn't also double-dip with a cash shop [especially one that sells silly immersion breaking fluff items]. I don't care if people buy pets, but that whole model of revenue generation creates a certain frame of mind in a game that is deleterious to serious RP and immersion. I know a lot of you will think I'm absurd for saying that, but it's how I feel. I don't RP, generally, but I take the worlds and communities I'm a part of seriously. I hope there can be a game for people like me.
The frame of mind I don't care for is silly. A game can be fun and funny without resorting to silliness, which is engendered by a lot of the "fluff" items.
For example, see a lot of the stuff in GW2: backpacks, beatboxes, etc. I play GW2 now and then and have a lot of fun with it, but I don't take it seriously, and it's certainly not something I would RP in. But I know why GW2 does it (to pay the devs, of course, so they can eat). And GW2 is a fine game for what it offers.
I agree in principle. I don't agree the GW2 is a fine game, but that's subjective I guess. No harm, no foul.
I understand the idea of cash shops for survival. But it's sort of a misdirection, in my mind. These games are not god enough to survive, and should fail. But they don't because of the "whales" and also because in today's world there's no competition worth players going to and paying for.
It's not that the games don't have something to offer, they all do. It's that they basically suck for meaning and any pride of accomplishment. If gamers didn't want the "massively multiplayer" social gamer thing so much, then they wouldn't be playing them when they won't even pay for the service. I think there are huge possibilities for MMOs of various types to actually earn money for being good enough, rather than simply being merchandisers.
Totally agree that "silly" is bad news. That's a negative that comes from going after every last dollar in merchandizing. It's good for a few gamers who want silly things but bad for all those who look for a more serious gaming environment.
Overall, I see the entire industry as grasping at straws because and hurting their products because they don't understand the massively social aspect that MMOs are supposed to offer. They fall back on proven Single Player design (which doesn't fit right), and then offer junk for cash to make it work. Worse yet, they are offering "advantage" for cash to entice gamers to pay something.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Compromised gameplay is one of the biggest reason I don't like F2P/Cash shops. I prefer for things to be available through gameplay and not sold.
Man, I could not agree more. In an age where players are growing tired of the same ol' same ol', this is stuff that could help offer a whole bunch of game play that's different. And add layers of adventure, discovery, whatever that's different from ye ol' level grind.
Yes, this is what I meant to say in my previous post.
But I understand that devs are doing cash shop fluff to survive.
One of the major reasons I hope ESO is successful (besides that I want to play) is that I would like to see a sub model resurrected if it adds to the game and doesn't also double-dip with a cash shop [especially one that sells silly immersion breaking fluff items]. I don't care if people buy pets, but that whole model of revenue generation creates a certain frame of mind in a game that is deleterious to serious RP and immersion. I know a lot of you will think I'm absurd for saying that, but it's how I feel. I don't RP, generally, but I take the worlds and communities I'm a part of seriously. I hope there can be a game for people like me.
The frame of mind I don't care for is silly. A game can be fun and funny without resorting to silliness, which is engendered by a lot of the "fluff" items.
For example, see a lot of the stuff in GW2: backpacks, beatboxes, etc. I play GW2 now and then and have a lot of fun with it, but I don't take it seriously, and it's certainly not something I would RP in. But I know why GW2 does it (to pay the devs, of course, so they can eat). And GW2 is a fine game for what it offers.
One of my biggest problem with F2P is I have a hard time taking it serious. I view it as using a gimmick to survive because your games not quality enough to hold subs and it usually holds true. Then you don't really know how much you need to spend to to be on equal footing or get all the content.
It goes against my spirit of gamesmanship. It violates my sense of gameplay is the most important thing because I know the cool stuff is all sold and not earned. I can accept players selling things for real money because somebody earned it at some point.
Seems to be okay these day's that people accept fluff as being cashshop items. Not talking about F2P games but talking about sub/based games with cashshops
To me fluff matters, I want to craft it, ceate it, enhance it, train it, mount it....etc.....
Fluff items are actually very meaningfull. Else they wouldn´t put them into cashshops.
I do understand those players who don´t care about fluff or are simply willing to use the cashshops.
I can just pay for the cashshops items but it would elliminate the purpose and enjoyment I get from playing games.
If the gameworld provides me the same acces to the same fluff items in cashshops I wouldn´t complain. Nor would I mind going thru some difficult tasks to obtain those fluff items.
So my main question is: Do you care about fluff?
Well to be fair since you say buying something from a cash shop would ruin your enjoyment it seems that paying anything for a game (since you're playing F2P it sounds like) would ruin your enjoyment, which means that you are not paying game companies.
That is kind of the point. Game companies need to make money. And since they aren't filled with ads the way TV shows are, they need you as a player to pay for things. So they need to put things on the cash shop that you want so that you will pay your way and not freeload them into bankruptcy. Since you want these fluff items and now need to decide if you want them bad enough to pay, it sounds like whatever game it is, is hitting close to the right mark.
You should never expect your entire gaming hobby to be free, otherwise there'd be no game for you to enjoy.
Fluff is a great way to break the monotony of the leveling/questing and gear acquisition treadmill. Fluff is what gives a game an extra layer of substance and allows players to really personalize their experience a lot more. I do not agree with items, even fluff, being available for only cash without also being available through in-game play.
Seems to be okay these day's that people accept fluff as being cashshop items. Not talking about F2P games but talking about sub/based games with cashshops
To me fluff matters, I want to craft it, ceate it, enhance it, train it, mount it....etc.....
Fluff items are actually very meaningfull. Else they wouldn´t put them into cashshops.
I do understand those players who don´t care about fluff or are simply willing to use the cashshops.
I can just pay for the cashshops items but it would elliminate the purpose and enjoyment I get from playing games.
If the gameworld provides me the same acces to the same fluff items in cashshops I wouldn´t complain. Nor would I mind going thru some difficult tasks to obtain those fluff items.
So my main question is: Do you care about fluff?
Well to be fair since you say buying something from a cash shop would ruin your enjoyment it seems that paying anything for a game (since you're playing F2P it sounds like) would ruin your enjoyment, which means that you are not paying game companies.
That is kind of the point. Game companies need to make money. And since they aren't filled with ads the way TV shows are, they need you as a player to pay for things. So they need to put things on the cash shop that you want so that you will pay your way and not freeload them into bankruptcy. Since you want these fluff items and now need to decide if you want them bad enough to pay, it sounds like whatever game it is, is hitting close to the right mark.
You should never expect your entire gaming hobby to be free, otherwise there'd be no game for you to enjoy.
Perhaps you missed it but I did mention in my OP that I am not talking about F2P games.
I don't really care for fluff. More power to those who do. If the game has enough to do and is fun, perfect. I never desired the extras like little pets, or color dyes, or mounts. That's just me.
I'll gladly pay a sub to support the game and not collect anything, rather than face the condemnation of those that think if I play a F2P game but not buy any 'fluff' items then I must be a leech. Haha j/k I could care less what others think.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Define fluff? Really, I have no idea what fluff is suppose to be.
The way I see it with a sub based games with a CS:
Items not obtainable through playing but only in a cashshop
There are just so much more layers of gameplay that can be put into this instead of reaching into a wallet. Which in my opinion results in players playing longer which might result in a long term revenu stream..
Again to make myself clear I am not talking about F2P games as I fully understand they need to make money somehow.
If all the new fluff is showing up in the cash shop rather than earned in game then yeah, it's an issue. I like my non-f2p games to have the best fluffed earned in game, and preferably not easily.
This s exactly why F2P is terrible model. I have baught fluff from these games. I am left with buyers remorse. Everyone else who has the same pad for fluff wish you didn't have the fluff, and all the free-load players resent you for buying things they don't have. They call you a wallet warrior, or a cash shop whore. Then ultimately you give up the game three weeks later due to lack of interest. I support P2P and I support play to win. This is how life works, excellence takes effort. Pro basketball players have been practicing basketball almost daily their whole lives. When you work hard to achieve a goal, you are left with a sense of accomplishment. Without it, things get boring fast! I am tired of playing these three week MMOs. Sooo.... no fluff, no F2P, no instant champion. They make games for instant champions, it's called Xbox and Playstation. Build games that cost money, have subscriptions, have a soul, and is a journey with fulfillment.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
Perhaps you missed it but I did mention in my OP that I am not talking about F2P games.
And yet this thread still turned into another f2p rant by people. It's almost like....it's not the game with the issues....it's the people.
But it's kind of hard when so much of what's considered fluff is tied to F2P. I think the outrage/annoyance/etc. speaks to people thinking fluff is important or at least should be included. That of course all lies into what you think fluff is.
Hell yes I care about fluff. Fluff is the fun stuff that is fun in itself. Other things (armor, weapons, potions and the like) are just tools, mere means to an end. The end is always the fluff.
A good sword of pwnage is like a good wrench: it gets the job done. But the sword of pwnage isn't good for what it is, it's good for what it does. What it does is give me more fluff to work with.
In fact, looking over at my life, most of my income goes towards "fluff": clothes, things to entertain myself, beautiful things, recreational things and so on.
Very little in my life goes towards "tools" or things I need to spend to do productive work.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
I agree in principle. I don't agree the GW2 is a fine game, but that's subjective I guess. No harm, no foul.
I understand the idea of cash shops for survival. But it's sort of a misdirection, in my mind. These games are not god enough to survive, and should fail. But they don't because of the "whales" and also because in today's world there's no competition worth players going to and paying for.
It's not that the games don't have something to offer, they all do. It's that they basically suck for meaning and any pride of accomplishment. If gamers didn't want the "massively multiplayer" social gamer thing so much, then they wouldn't be playing them when they won't even pay for the service. I think there are huge possibilities for MMOs of various types to actually earn money for being good enough, rather than simply being merchandisers.
Totally agree that "silly" is bad news. That's a negative that comes from going after every last dollar in merchandizing. It's good for a few gamers who want silly things but bad for all those who look for a more serious gaming environment.
Overall, I see the entire industry as grasping at straws because and hurting their products because they don't understand the massively social aspect that MMOs are supposed to offer. They fall back on proven Single Player design (which doesn't fit right), and then offer junk for cash to make it work. Worse yet, they are offering "advantage" for cash to entice gamers to pay something.
Once upon a time....
One of my biggest problem with F2P is I have a hard time taking it serious. I view it as using a gimmick to survive because your games not quality enough to hold subs and it usually holds true. Then you don't really know how much you need to spend to to be on equal footing or get all the content.
It goes against my spirit of gamesmanship. It violates my sense of gameplay is the most important thing because I know the cool stuff is all sold and not earned. I can accept players selling things for real money because somebody earned it at some point.
Well to be fair since you say buying something from a cash shop would ruin your enjoyment it seems that paying anything for a game (since you're playing F2P it sounds like) would ruin your enjoyment, which means that you are not paying game companies.
That is kind of the point. Game companies need to make money. And since they aren't filled with ads the way TV shows are, they need you as a player to pay for things. So they need to put things on the cash shop that you want so that you will pay your way and not freeload them into bankruptcy. Since you want these fluff items and now need to decide if you want them bad enough to pay, it sounds like whatever game it is, is hitting close to the right mark.
You should never expect your entire gaming hobby to be free, otherwise there'd be no game for you to enjoy.
Fluff is a great way to break the monotony of the leveling/questing and gear acquisition treadmill. Fluff is what gives a game an extra layer of substance and allows players to really personalize their experience a lot more. I do not agree with items, even fluff, being available for only cash without also being available through in-game play.
Perhaps you missed it but I did mention in my OP that I am not talking about F2P games.
I don't really care for fluff. More power to those who do. If the game has enough to do and is fun, perfect. I never desired the extras like little pets, or color dyes, or mounts. That's just me.
I'll gladly pay a sub to support the game and not collect anything, rather than face the condemnation of those that think if I play a F2P game but not buy any 'fluff' items then I must be a leech. Haha j/k I could care less what others think.
The way I see it with a sub based games with a CS:
Items not obtainable through playing but only in a cashshop
There are just so much more layers of gameplay that can be put into this instead of reaching into a wallet. Which in my opinion results in players playing longer which might result in a long term revenu stream..
Again to make myself clear I am not talking about F2P games as I fully understand they need to make money somehow.
This s exactly why F2P is terrible model. I have baught fluff from these games. I am left with buyers remorse. Everyone else who has the same pad for fluff wish you didn't have the fluff, and all the free-load players resent you for buying things they don't have. They call you a wallet warrior, or a cash shop whore. Then ultimately you give up the game three weeks later due to lack of interest. I support P2P and I support play to win. This is how life works, excellence takes effort. Pro basketball players have been practicing basketball almost daily their whole lives. When you work hard to achieve a goal, you are left with a sense of accomplishment. Without it, things get boring fast! I am tired of playing these three week MMOs. Sooo.... no fluff, no F2P, no instant champion. They make games for instant champions, it's called Xbox and Playstation. Build games that cost money, have subscriptions, have a soul, and is a journey with fulfillment.
And yet this thread still turned into another f2p rant by people. It's almost like....it's not the game with the issues....it's the people.
I do like the occasional fluffernutter sandwich.
But it's kind of hard when so much of what's considered fluff is tied to F2P. I think the outrage/annoyance/etc. speaks to people thinking fluff is important or at least should be included. That of course all lies into what you think fluff is.
Hell yes I care about fluff. Fluff is the fun stuff that is fun in itself. Other things (armor, weapons, potions and the like) are just tools, mere means to an end. The end is always the fluff.
A good sword of pwnage is like a good wrench: it gets the job done. But the sword of pwnage isn't good for what it is, it's good for what it does. What it does is give me more fluff to work with.
In fact, looking over at my life, most of my income goes towards "fluff": clothes, things to entertain myself, beautiful things, recreational things and so on.
Very little in my life goes towards "tools" or things I need to spend to do productive work.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE