Depends. Are they going to move all the people they have working on it off of the project and just collect money while it slowly sinks, as they do with all their MMOs? If so, no.
I hated the Itemization and Questing of Vanguard. Fix how itemization worked and remove questing; instead make enough dungeons (starting at early levels) for us to delve into solo or with others (lots of static content; solo, due, group dungeons and area of interests).
I also dislike 3rd Person View but I guess it wouldn't bother me if everything else was good.
Originally posted by azarhal Originally posted by GdemamiOriginally posted by LoktofeitOriginally posted by olepiDo you mean it launches with updated graphics? If so, then yes, I'd play it. But if it launched today with the existing graphics? Probably not.
^--- this post is a perfect example of why there's no money in making cutting edge graphics for most developers. Doing so means having to do a graphics overhaul every three years or gamers will reject/leave it, no matter how much they like the gameplay.That is why EVE isn't improving the graphics...?Is that sarcasm?
EVE overhauled their graphics engine with the Trinity update (2007). After that all these expansion had graphical updates (for ship, UI, astral bodies): Quantum Rise (2008), Tyrannis (2010), Crucible (2011) and Inferno (2012).
Yep, I was being sarcastic.
The truth is, graphics is a huge part of game appeal. The problem is, concept of standard MMO makes graphics overhauls somewhat difficult/inefficient/expensive.
It was easier with EVE due space theme, yet I still wonder how much would it cost to update character models and animations of ie. LOTRO.
It's an alternate universe far far away and the horrible launch and quick death of Vanguard never happened...... Actually it never even released and is coming out this upcoming year....... It is in a finished state, not rushed, not full of bugs, and has a large development team that will stay with the game......... and the mmo community in this day and age is wanting more and more something different than the generic themepark clones we have been fed for 10 years.........
Seriously folks, would this game released properly in this day and age not get you excited? I've played so many mmo's where people will talk about things that they wish someone would make in an mmo and I've thought how Vanguard already has that. Yeah in some aspects it was still a theme park but anyone who really played the game knows it was way more than just that.
Update - this is a list of current features Vanguard already has, there seemed to be some confusion over this:
2. No instancing at all in the giant game world
3. Open world housing (also non instanced)
4. Ship building and sailing
5. Fishing that is actually interactive and deep like the crafting system
6. Group focused content
7. Diplomacy system
8. Harvesting system that is interactive and incorporates group harvesting
9. Challenging content, corpse runs, etc.
10. Tons of class and race options.
11. Giant world that creates a sense of wonder and immersion.
12. Over 120 non instanced dungeons
if it was a sandbox, updated graphics, smooth engine....then yes.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by Nevulus of course. My only problem with that game is the rigid character animations (slow combat), models, and the god awful stuttering between chunks. I still think it's one of the better mmos out there for exploration and difficulty.
100% agree. I love the core of this game, and it keeps bringing me back because I love the world and classes, but after a month or so I just can't take the animations and lacklustre performance anymore. If there was a game with Vanguard core gameplay, and Blade and Soul style movement and graphics, I would be in heaven.
The Fantasy-MMO-Genre is overcrowded by Mainstreamgames + Nichegames - i dont feel that VG would stand out enough to be commercial viable and avoid to invest Time + Money.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Update - this is a list of current features Vanguard already has, there seemed to be some confusion over this:
2. No instancing at all in the giant game world
3. Open world housing (also non instanced)
4. Ship building and sailing
5. Fishing that is actually interactive and deep like the crafting system
6. Group focused content
7. Diplomacy system
8. Harvesting system that is interactive and incorporates group harvesting
9. Challenging content, corpse runs, etc.
10. Tons of class and race options.
11. Giant world that creates a sense of wonder and immersion.
12. Over 120 non instanced dungeons
2 to 8: Couldn't care less. I play Heroic Fantasy games for the heroic fantasy, not in order to mine coal or knock out bolts of cloth or build a dinky little house full of knick-knacks.
9 and 10: Sounds OK
11: It seemed bland to me, frankly.
12: God no! I don't want my dungeons full of other people running around all over the place. It makes a long-lost ruin filled with mystery and danger feel more like rush hour in a city centre.
I hated the Itemization and Questing of Vanguard. Fix how itemization worked and remove questing; instead make enough dungeons (starting at early levels) for us to delve into solo or with others (lots of static content; solo, due, group dungeons and area of interests).
I also dislike 3rd Person View but I guess it wouldn't bother me if everything else was good.
Umm yeah not sure where to start with this:
1) Questing hubs and linear pathways (the golden path) were added much later (during the first attempt to revive Vanguard). The original game had quests, but they were fairly random in distribution and not the easiest way to level.
2) Enough dungeons? Vanguard has the most levelling dungeons out of any game I know, starting at Level 5. Seriously, go check out this list:
This isn't even a full list, there are still nooks of heroic content that many people haven't undertaken. One thing that Vanguard is not lacking in is levelling content.
3) You can use a First Person View in Vanguard....
5 or 6 years ago, it would have been a clear 'yes'. These days I probably wouldn't get over the combat and the questgiver-objective-questgiver ping pong that you're going through as a new player.
It's an alternate universe far far away and the horrible launch and quick death of Vanguard never happened...... Actually it never even released and is coming out this upcoming year....... It is in a finished state, not rushed, not full of bugs, and has a large development team that will stay with the game......... and the mmo community in this day and age is wanting more and more something different than the generic themepark clones we have been fed for 10 years.........
Seriously folks, would this game released properly in this day and age not get you excited? I've played so many mmo's where people will talk about things that they wish someone would make in an mmo and I've thought how Vanguard already has that. Yeah in some aspects it was still a theme park but anyone who really played the game knows it was way more than just that.
Update - this is a list of current features Vanguard already has, there seemed to be some confusion over this:
2. No instancing at all in the giant game world
3. Open world housing (also non instanced)
4. Ship building and sailing
5. Fishing that is actually interactive and deep like the crafting system
6. Group focused content
7. Diplomacy system
8. Harvesting system that is interactive and incorporates group harvesting
9. Challenging content, corpse runs, etc.
10. Tons of class and race options.
11. Giant world that creates a sense of wonder and immersion.
12. Over 120 non instanced dungeons
Nope because the game smacks of Everquest. A game I truly despised. So glad I was brought up on a good MMO like Asheron's Call.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by kadepsyson Once quests became useless compared to just grinding in a dungeon to level and gain equipment, I was done with the game. Releasing in 2014 wouldn't change the grind.
thats cute how you think a paragraph of "story" attached to kill x of y task somehow magically makes the experience better.
you're the reason MMOs are in the sorry state they are in. when you're so easily led along by pointless little illusions that there is some deeper meaning behind grinding; just cuz it has dialog boxes and extra sound effects tacked on. hilarious.
Originally posted by Quirhid No. It was rather uninspired. A stereotypical MMORPG. Nothing that stands out. Made no improvements to the genre.
Yeah the crafting depth, diplomacy, fishing complexity, ship building, full world without instancing etc - nothing new had all been done before definitely. See that all the time. Now what game would you say has stood out and made improvements to the genre, and is not stereotypical again?
Originally posted by Quirhid No. It was rather uninspired. A stereotypical MMORPG. Nothing that stands out. Made no improvements to the genre.
Yeah the crafting depth, diplomacy, fishing complexity, ship building, full world without instancing etc - nothing new had all been done before definitely. See that all the time. Now what game would you say has stood out and made improvements to the genre, and is not stereotypical again?
Amongst other things like brotherhoods, caravans, critical skill combos, counterskills etc. Just ignore them, ignorant posts from people who never played it enough to know what set it apart from the others at launch.
I played it back in the day before questing became the norm to level up ( wow ruined that ) and it was a great game but it never had the communitiy that EQ had so i only played it for about 4 or 5 months. But in those months i had a great time and really enjoyed the game but it was launched at the wrong time . If they had waited another 2 years and launched it then i think it would off been a whole differant story but to launch it now a days it would do great because there is still a lot out there that want old style mmo not the modern junk we are getting these days.
Originally posted by Quirhid No. It was rather uninspired. A stereotypical MMORPG. Nothing that stands out. Made no improvements to the genre.
Yeah the crafting depth, diplomacy, fishing complexity, ship building, full world without instancing etc - nothing new had all been done before definitely. See that all the time. Now what game would you say has stood out and made improvements to the genre, and is not stereotypical again?
Crafting was annoying minigame grind. It should give you a hint when they took measures against scripts/bots with the UI. It is boring as hell! Diplomacy was a lack-luster cardgame. Fishing was fishing i.e. boring. You didn't use the ships you built for anything - that is, I saw no-one doing anything worthwhile with them. People just built them and just played around ... And a "full world" without instancing is not an improvement. The world was filled with bland quests, grind and suffered from a chronic case of the "static world syndrome". I was bored to tears within 3 weeks.
Its not enough that you have crafting, or diplomacy, or fishing, or ship building. Games are not a feature list pissing contest. It actually matters how those things are implemented.
Like I said, nothing in the game stood out. It had the same sort of bloated number of classes and races games before did. It used a hotkey + hard trinity combat like 95% of all MMORPGs out there. It had mounts but no mounted combat. It had ships but I didn't see any ship combat.
Sorry, but I don't see what the fuzz is all about. I don't like generic MMORPGs.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Quirhid No. It was rather uninspired. A stereotypical MMORPG. Nothing that stands out. Made no improvements to the genre.
Yeah the crafting depth, diplomacy, fishing complexity, ship building, full world without instancing etc - nothing new had all been done before definitely. See that all the time. Now what game would you say has stood out and made improvements to the genre, and is not stereotypical again?
Crafting was annoying minigame grind. It should give you a hint when they took measures against scripts/bots with the UI. It is boring as hell! Diplomacy was a lack-luster cardgame. Fishing was fishing i.e. boring. You didn't use the ships you built for anything - that is, I saw no-one doing anything worthwhile with them. People just built them and just played around ... And a "full world" without instancing is not an improvement. The world was filled with bland quests, grind and suffered from a chronic case of the "static world syndrome". I was bored to tears within 3 weeks.
Its not enough that you have crafting, or diplomacy, or fishing, or ship building. Games are not a feature list pissing contest. It actually matters how those things are implemented.
Like I said, nothing in the game stood out. It had the same sort of bloated number of classes and races games before did. It used a hotkey + hard trinity combat like 95% of all MMORPGs out there. It had mounts but no mounted combat. It had ships but I didn't see any ship combat.
Sorry, but I don't see what the fuzz is all about. I don't like generic MMORPGs.
This is where I think the current divide between gamers are these days. Not trying to offend anyone, but that type of mentality is what I see is having come from the console shooter crowd wanting to play mmo's and seeing combat and combat only as the sole purpose of the game, whereas the other half are expecting fullblown immersive worlds to spend their time in. Every item you listed negatively is exactly why I have played the game since beta, still play today and am hoping another developer will eventually give us something akin to Vanguard in the future. One-click crafting systems are the most boring, useless mechanics placed into modern games, making it almost pointless.
This is where I think the current divide between gamers are these days. Not trying to offend anyone, but that type of mentality is what I see is having come from the console shooter crowd wanting to play mmo's and seeing combat and combat only as the sole purpose of the game, whereas the other half are expecting fullblown immersive worlds to spend their time in. Every item you listed negatively is exactly why I have played the game since beta, still play today and am hoping another developer will eventually give us something akin to Vanguard in the future. One-click crafting systems are the most boring, useless mechanics placed into modern games, making it almost pointless.
Sorry, I am not one of the "console shooter crowd" either. What further divides people is the use of such ludicrous stereotypes and assumptions.
I get that you want good make-believe rather than a good game. And while those are not mutually exclusive, I'm really in it for the game. If the game is not good, no amount of make-believe is going to keep me playing. If I want that make-believe, I'd rather play a P&P RPG with friends.
Even without the bugs and problems, I didn't see Vanguard as a very good game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Maybe. But, only if they got rid of the quest hubs:
1. Put NPCs back where they were, rather than in their current circle-jerk formation. 2. Remove the exclamation point helmets. 3. Greatly reduce the xp/gear rewards. 4. Remove the quest compass. 5. Remove out of combat regen.
SOE, so I heard, are to thank for forcing Sigil to implement those WOWification features.
Quest hubs transformed an exploration style game into a busy-work style game. It removed for the players the need to wonder, "what am I going to do today."
Quest hubs are boring as shit; but since is the best xp and gear in the game; everyone does them. I'd LOVE to play Vanguard with a guild where quest hub usage is not allowed. Sign me up for that. The more I think about it; I would truly enjoy Vanguard in that guild.
Other things I want changed (were they copied from WoW?): 1. Show combat text in a dedicated window; the flying numbers were meaningless. 2. Make chained abilities fire automatically; rather than forcing the player to click them when they light-up.
/edit - some folks mention that VG quest hubs were added later. You must be thinking of the beta because Quest hubs were there on day 1 of release, and everyone I crossed paths with utilized them.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Quirhid No. It was rather uninspired. A stereotypical MMORPG. Nothing that stands out. Made no improvements to the genre.
Yeah the crafting depth, diplomacy, fishing complexity, ship building, full world without instancing etc - nothing new had all been done before definitely. See that all the time. Now what game would you say has stood out and made improvements to the genre, and is not stereotypical again?
Crafting was annoying minigame grind. It should give you a hint when they took measures against scripts/bots with the UI. It is boring as hell! Diplomacy was a lack-luster cardgame. Fishing was fishing i.e. boring. You didn't use the ships you built for anything - that is, I saw no-one doing anything worthwhile with them. People just built them and just played around ... And a "full world" without instancing is not an improvement. The world was filled with bland quests, grind and suffered from a chronic case of the "static world syndrome". I was bored to tears within 3 weeks.
Its not enough that you have crafting, or diplomacy, or fishing, or ship building. Games are not a feature list pissing contest. It actually matters how those things are implemented.
Like I said, nothing in the game stood out. It had the same sort of bloated number of classes and races games before did. It used a hotkey + hard trinity combat like 95% of all MMORPGs out there. It had mounts but no mounted combat. It had ships but I didn't see any ship combat.
Sorry, but I don't see what the fuzz is all about. I don't like generic MMORPGs.
This is where I think the current divide between gamers are these days. Not trying to offend anyone, but that type of mentality is what I see is having come from the console shooter crowd wanting to play mmo's and seeing combat and combat only as the sole purpose of the game, whereas the other half are expecting fullblown immersive worlds to spend their time in. Every item you listed negatively is exactly why I have played the game since beta, still play today and am hoping another developer will eventually give us something akin to Vanguard in the future. One-click crafting systems are the most boring, useless mechanics placed into modern games, making it almost pointless.
I'm not from the console crowd, I've actually never owned a console although I do use my brothers on occasion, and I agree with him.
The is the important line, "
Its not enough that you have crafting, or diplomacy, or fishing, or ship building. Games are not a feature list pissing contest. It actually matters how those things are implemented."
IMO everything in the game reached a point of good enough rather than great. It didn't have any great feature that pulled me away from the games I am playing. On paper it shoudl have been great, they had everything I want, in practice it was just "meh"
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Some of the game mechanics are quite unique, and the world is awesome and immersive. It's hard to accurately critic the game since the questions assumes that the game was under constant development.
Diplomacy was a blast, and had great integration with other game mechanics. Could it have been improved? Yes. In a world where it was given updates who know what those mechanics could look like now.
Closest game now to Vanguard would be FFXIV: ARR. Biggest difference (and why I like Vanguard better) is the larger, more open world of Vanguard.
At any rate, I would play a 2014 Vanguard, and here's hoping the McQuaid Kickstarter gets us something close to that.
Originally posted by Quirhid No. It was rather uninspired. A stereotypical MMORPG. Nothing that stands out. Made no improvements to the genre.
Yeah the crafting depth, diplomacy, fishing complexity, ship building, full world without instancing etc - nothing new had all been done before definitely. See that all the time. Now what game would you say has stood out and made improvements to the genre, and is not stereotypical again?
Crafting was annoying minigame grind. It should give you a hint when they took measures against scripts/bots with the UI. It is boring as hell! Diplomacy was a lack-luster cardgame. Fishing was fishing i.e. boring. You didn't use the ships you built for anything - that is, I saw no-one doing anything worthwhile with them. People just built them and just played around ... And a "full world" without instancing is not an improvement. The world was filled with bland quests, grind and suffered from a chronic case of the "static world syndrome". I was bored to tears within 3 weeks.
Its not enough that you have crafting, or diplomacy, or fishing, or ship building. Games are not a feature list pissing contest. It actually matters how those things are implemented.
Like I said, nothing in the game stood out. It had the same sort of bloated number of classes and races games before did. It used a hotkey + hard trinity combat like 95% of all MMORPGs out there. It had mounts but no mounted combat. It had ships but I didn't see any ship combat.
Sorry, but I don't see what the fuzz is all about. I don't like generic MMORPGs.
Still waiting for your examples of games that you're playing that match the criteria that you are knocking Vanguard for not living up to.
OP, I'm playing it now. I think more people should try it out if they haven't. All the mmorpg players on this site that want a rich open world with content you can literally just stumble across are missing out. The game has depth. Don't ask what I mean by depth - if you have to ask you wouldn't understand, most likely.
I'm especially addicted to the crafting in this game. I haven't done crafting in any other game, so it's saying something. There are crafting quest lines that go on for about 10 levels and take you across the game world. It's really not a grind, especially if you read and pay attention to the NPCs you're crafting for. Sometimes, you have to read what they say or you won't know what to do.
There are multiple dungeons for all levels. You won't get the same gear from different dungeons. There are PHs for rare spawn enemies. There are rare drops off of bosses. There are gear set quest lines - even before level 20. The faction system is great. You pretty much start off on neutral terms with every one but what you do through the game determines what cities you can go to later on. You can attack anything you can target.
I played at launch and it was unplayable in some aspects. It had a rocky start. Right now though, it is the best out there. There are still a few minor annoyances but if you let those bother you then you probably shouldn't play mmorpgs.
Originally posted by Quirhid No. It was rather uninspired. A stereotypical MMORPG. Nothing that stands out. Made no improvements to the genre.
Yeah the crafting depth, diplomacy, fishing complexity, ship building, full world without instancing etc - nothing new had all been done before definitely. See that all the time. Now what game would you say has stood out and made improvements to the genre, and is not stereotypical again?
Crafting was annoying minigame grind. It should give you a hint when they took measures against scripts/bots with the UI. It is boring as hell! Diplomacy was a lack-luster cardgame. Fishing was fishing i.e. boring. You didn't use the ships you built for anything - that is, I saw no-one doing anything worthwhile with them. People just built them and just played around ... And a "full world" without instancing is not an improvement. The world was filled with bland quests, grind and suffered from a chronic case of the "static world syndrome". I was bored to tears within 3 weeks.
Its not enough that you have crafting, or diplomacy, or fishing, or ship building. Games are not a feature list pissing contest. It actually matters how those things are implemented.
Like I said, nothing in the game stood out. It had the same sort of bloated number of classes and races games before did. It used a hotkey + hard trinity combat like 95% of all MMORPGs out there. It had mounts but no mounted combat. It had ships but I didn't see any ship combat.
Sorry, but I don't see what the fuzz is all about. I don't like generic MMORPGs.
Still waiting for your examples of games that you're playing that match the criteria that you are knocking Vanguard for not living up to.
Isnt the purpose of this thread to say if we would or wouldnt play vanguard and why. He said his whys and you obviously do not agree with them, which is fine, but why complain about it.
Personally i didnt and usually dont enjoy crafting. The diplomacy system I thought was some sort of joke when I first noticed it. Fishing doesnt appeal to me in real life nor in this game. If it was some sort of survival game and I had to hunt and fish for sustenance than I would understand fishing and crafting but for the most part they are some sort of novelty or mini game in most mmorpgs.
The most important thing for me in an MMORPG is character customization. I want to create a look for my character, a back story, then create it in the game. I want the character to fight the way I choose it to fight. The class system in this game is the most static system it could be. I have the same problems with EQ2, which does have some ways to mold your character but they turned attributes into a generic nothing matters mess.
Why not have a strength focused warrior. Why not have an agility focused warrior, nope thats not allowed. Why not go dual wield or maybe a two handed hammer. Can I choose between which skills I want. Nope, here is your skills and this is how it is, no choices for you. I dont understand the point of a role playing game when most of my role is chosen for me.
I mean honestly, if the diplomacy system, crafting, fishing, and all the other things that you believe Vanguard does so well, if it was what people were looking for, this game wouldnt be in the state it is.
How about a Vanguard II with everything they have currently with updated World PvP and graphics....?
Id play it. I never return to a game once I leave though.
companies need to give up the "Release the game and use those sales to continue the development of the game" attitude. Releasing an unfinished game is the death of games.
Comments
I hated the Itemization and Questing of Vanguard. Fix how itemization worked and remove questing; instead make enough dungeons (starting at early levels) for us to delve into solo or with others (lots of static content; solo, due, group dungeons and area of interests).
I also dislike 3rd Person View but I guess it wouldn't bother me if everything else was good.
That is why EVE isn't improving the graphics...?
Is that sarcasm?
EVE overhauled their graphics engine with the Trinity update (2007). After that all these expansion had graphical updates (for ship, UI, astral bodies): Quantum Rise (2008), Tyrannis (2010), Crucible (2011) and Inferno (2012).
Yep, I was being sarcastic.
The truth is, graphics is a huge part of game appeal. The problem is, concept of standard MMO makes graphics overhauls somewhat difficult/inefficient/expensive.
It was easier with EVE due space theme, yet I still wonder how much would it cost to update character models and animations of ie. LOTRO.
if it was a sandbox, updated graphics, smooth engine....then yes.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
100% agree. I love the core of this game, and it keeps bringing me back because I love the world and classes, but after a month or so I just can't take the animations and lacklustre performance anymore. If there was a game with Vanguard core gameplay, and Blade and Soul style movement and graphics, I would be in heaven.
The Fantasy-MMO-Genre is overcrowded by Mainstreamgames + Nichegames - i dont feel that VG would stand out enough to be commercial viable and avoid to invest Time + Money.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
2 to 8: Couldn't care less. I play Heroic Fantasy games for the heroic fantasy, not in order to mine coal or knock out bolts of cloth or build a dinky little house full of knick-knacks.
9 and 10: Sounds OK
11: It seemed bland to me, frankly.
12: God no! I don't want my dungeons full of other people running around all over the place. It makes a long-lost ruin filled with mystery and danger feel more like rush hour in a city centre.
So, that's a resounding "no" from me then.
Umm yeah not sure where to start with this:
1) Questing hubs and linear pathways (the golden path) were added much later (during the first attempt to revive Vanguard). The original game had quests, but they were fairly random in distribution and not the easiest way to level.
2) Enough dungeons? Vanguard has the most levelling dungeons out of any game I know, starting at Level 5. Seriously, go check out this list:
http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dungeons
This isn't even a full list, there are still nooks of heroic content that many people haven't undertaken. One thing that Vanguard is not lacking in is levelling content.
3) You can use a First Person View in Vanguard....
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Nope because the game smacks of Everquest. A game I truly despised. So glad I was brought up on a good MMO like Asheron's Call.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
thats cute how you think a paragraph of "story" attached to kill x of y task somehow magically makes the experience better.
you're the reason MMOs are in the sorry state they are in. when you're so easily led along by pointless little illusions that there is some deeper meaning behind grinding; just cuz it has dialog boxes and extra sound effects tacked on. hilarious.
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Corpus Callosum
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Yeah the crafting depth, diplomacy, fishing complexity, ship building, full world without instancing etc - nothing new had all been done before definitely. See that all the time. Now what game would you say has stood out and made improvements to the genre, and is not stereotypical again?
Amongst other things like brotherhoods, caravans, critical skill combos, counterskills etc. Just ignore them, ignorant posts from people who never played it enough to know what set it apart from the others at launch.
Crafting was annoying minigame grind. It should give you a hint when they took measures against scripts/bots with the UI. It is boring as hell! Diplomacy was a lack-luster cardgame. Fishing was fishing i.e. boring. You didn't use the ships you built for anything - that is, I saw no-one doing anything worthwhile with them. People just built them and just played around ... And a "full world" without instancing is not an improvement. The world was filled with bland quests, grind and suffered from a chronic case of the "static world syndrome". I was bored to tears within 3 weeks.
Its not enough that you have crafting, or diplomacy, or fishing, or ship building. Games are not a feature list pissing contest. It actually matters how those things are implemented.
Like I said, nothing in the game stood out. It had the same sort of bloated number of classes and races games before did. It used a hotkey + hard trinity combat like 95% of all MMORPGs out there. It had mounts but no mounted combat. It had ships but I didn't see any ship combat.
Sorry, but I don't see what the fuzz is all about. I don't like generic MMORPGs.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This is where I think the current divide between gamers are these days. Not trying to offend anyone, but that type of mentality is what I see is having come from the console shooter crowd wanting to play mmo's and seeing combat and combat only as the sole purpose of the game, whereas the other half are expecting fullblown immersive worlds to spend their time in. Every item you listed negatively is exactly why I have played the game since beta, still play today and am hoping another developer will eventually give us something akin to Vanguard in the future. One-click crafting systems are the most boring, useless mechanics placed into modern games, making it almost pointless.
Sorry, I am not one of the "console shooter crowd" either. What further divides people is the use of such ludicrous stereotypes and assumptions.
I get that you want good make-believe rather than a good game. And while those are not mutually exclusive, I'm really in it for the game. If the game is not good, no amount of make-believe is going to keep me playing. If I want that make-believe, I'd rather play a P&P RPG with friends.
Even without the bugs and problems, I didn't see Vanguard as a very good game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Maybe. But, only if they got rid of the quest hubs:
1. Put NPCs back where they were, rather than in their current circle-jerk formation.
2. Remove the exclamation point helmets.
3. Greatly reduce the xp/gear rewards.
4. Remove the quest compass.
5. Remove out of combat regen.
SOE, so I heard, are to thank for forcing Sigil to implement those WOWification features.
Quest hubs transformed an exploration style game into a busy-work style game. It removed for the players the need to wonder, "what am I going to do today."
Quest hubs are boring as shit; but since is the best xp and gear in the game; everyone does them. I'd LOVE to play Vanguard with a guild where quest hub usage is not allowed.
Sign me up for that. The more I think about it; I would truly enjoy Vanguard in that guild.
Other things I want changed (were they copied from WoW?):
1. Show combat text in a dedicated window; the flying numbers were meaningless.
2. Make chained abilities fire automatically; rather than forcing the player to click them when they light-up.
/edit - some folks mention that VG quest hubs were added later. You must be thinking of the beta because Quest hubs were there on day 1 of release, and everyone I crossed paths with utilized them.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I'm not from the console crowd, I've actually never owned a console although I do use my brothers on occasion, and I agree with him.
The is the important line, "
Its not enough that you have crafting, or diplomacy, or fishing, or ship building. Games are not a feature list pissing contest. It actually matters how those things are implemented."
IMO everything in the game reached a point of good enough rather than great. It didn't have any great feature that pulled me away from the games I am playing. On paper it shoudl have been great, they had everything I want, in practice it was just "meh"
Some of the game mechanics are quite unique, and the world is awesome and immersive. It's hard to accurately critic the game since the questions assumes that the game was under constant development.
Diplomacy was a blast, and had great integration with other game mechanics. Could it have been improved? Yes. In a world where it was given updates who know what those mechanics could look like now.
Closest game now to Vanguard would be FFXIV: ARR. Biggest difference (and why I like Vanguard better) is the larger, more open world of Vanguard.
At any rate, I would play a 2014 Vanguard, and here's hoping the McQuaid Kickstarter gets us something close to that.
Still waiting for your examples of games that you're playing that match the criteria that you are knocking Vanguard for not living up to.
OP, I'm playing it now. I think more people should try it out if they haven't. All the mmorpg players on this site that want a rich open world with content you can literally just stumble across are missing out. The game has depth. Don't ask what I mean by depth - if you have to ask you wouldn't understand, most likely.
I'm especially addicted to the crafting in this game. I haven't done crafting in any other game, so it's saying something. There are crafting quest lines that go on for about 10 levels and take you across the game world. It's really not a grind, especially if you read and pay attention to the NPCs you're crafting for. Sometimes, you have to read what they say or you won't know what to do.
There are multiple dungeons for all levels. You won't get the same gear from different dungeons. There are PHs for rare spawn enemies. There are rare drops off of bosses. There are gear set quest lines - even before level 20. The faction system is great. You pretty much start off on neutral terms with every one but what you do through the game determines what cities you can go to later on. You can attack anything you can target.
I played at launch and it was unplayable in some aspects. It had a rocky start. Right now though, it is the best out there. There are still a few minor annoyances but if you let those bother you then you probably shouldn't play mmorpgs.
Isnt the purpose of this thread to say if we would or wouldnt play vanguard and why. He said his whys and you obviously do not agree with them, which is fine, but why complain about it.
Personally i didnt and usually dont enjoy crafting. The diplomacy system I thought was some sort of joke when I first noticed it. Fishing doesnt appeal to me in real life nor in this game. If it was some sort of survival game and I had to hunt and fish for sustenance than I would understand fishing and crafting but for the most part they are some sort of novelty or mini game in most mmorpgs.
The most important thing for me in an MMORPG is character customization. I want to create a look for my character, a back story, then create it in the game. I want the character to fight the way I choose it to fight. The class system in this game is the most static system it could be. I have the same problems with EQ2, which does have some ways to mold your character but they turned attributes into a generic nothing matters mess.
Why not have a strength focused warrior. Why not have an agility focused warrior, nope thats not allowed. Why not go dual wield or maybe a two handed hammer. Can I choose between which skills I want. Nope, here is your skills and this is how it is, no choices for you. I dont understand the point of a role playing game when most of my role is chosen for me.
I mean honestly, if the diplomacy system, crafting, fishing, and all the other things that you believe Vanguard does so well, if it was what people were looking for, this game wouldnt be in the state it is.
How about a Vanguard II with everything they have currently with updated World PvP and graphics....?
Id play it. I never return to a game once I leave though.
companies need to give up the "Release the game and use those sales to continue the development of the game" attitude. Releasing an unfinished game is the death of games.