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BRILLIANT article on FFA PVP
Raventree
Member Posts: 456
I just finished reading an article over at Massively about FFA PVP and why devs keep trying and failing to find the magical formula to make it work. I tried to post a link, but for some reason MMORPG won't let me. Basically, the author's opinion is that the reason it doesn't work is that devs try to throw a bunch of players together with no restrictions, but also no rules or repercussions for antisocial or predatory behavior. Thus, you end up with the lowest common denominator becoming the de facto standard and the absolute worst players driving away everyone else. In real life you can go attack someone randomly for no other reason than to entertain yourself, but there will be serious consequences that prevent you from doing so. In the opinion of the author, the devs are using the FFA PVP sandbox experience as an excuse for poorly and lazily designed game systems.
This is exactly how I have felt for a long time. I am an avid PVP player, but most of the sandboxy or more hardcore PVP MMOs don't have any type of systems in place to encourage PVP while discouraging or preventing the emotionally malformed griefer crowd from spending all day camping new players or simply trying to prevent other players from playing the game. An example that comes to mind is the guy who was posting videos of how he and his guild could go to PVP safe zones in Darkfall UW and still harass other players by preventing them from gathering materials "for fun." The point was clearly not PVP or advancement, it was harassment of other players.
I know that the griefer crowd is over-represented on these forums, but I invite other PVPers who are not griefers to read the article called Some Assembly Required over at Massively and to discuss it. Why is a full PVP experience with firm rules that encourage PVP and not antisocial griefing so rare? It is my understanding that the only game to do a decent job has been Eve.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
Comments
Age of Wushu does the best job. I'm sure it's crime and punishment system was on the authors mind when this was written. They cover Wushu heavily over there.
The author is correct in calling out lazy (western) developers. No one wants ganking w/o consequence. Instead of putting thought into design, we get more themepark clones.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
If they had behaved in Lord of the Flies the way people do on the internet it would have been two paragraphs long before the stick was sharpened at both ends.
I have to agree with your post, I havent read the article yet but it sounds like the reason explained why I personally dont play FFAPVP games usually. Usually the games are just dumb un-immersive mass murder simulators where all the rest of game mechanics and activities gets overrun by the mass murder griefing frenzy. At that point the game is simply stupid, possibly an exciting world completely wasted under lazy development.
I do play EvE though currently, and the systems put in place there works quite well.
(1.0 - 0.5) There's the high-security "core worlds" where all the illegal aggressors gets stomped by the NPC police. "Suicide ganks" are possible but not very common except certain places, and under certain conditions (there are also advanced rules which allow you killing certain people, for being at war with their corporation for example).
(0.4 - 0.1) Then there is the low-security space, where the NPC police wont intervene but illegal kills lower player security status which eventually bans them from high-sec unless they grind security missions, a lot, or spend money, a lot.
(0.0 and lower) And lastly, the nullsec (and also wormhole space) which is the wild west during gold rush and no laws are present.
That layering of PvP rules feels like it works quite well, it's still possible to PvP anywhere, and even get some legal PvP kills in high-sec against criminals, and all the PvP in the world on the lower security systems. It's quite balanced system and even pure PvE players may enjoy playing EvE, sure you might get suicide ganked in high-sec a couple of times a year but it wont ruin anything completely.
I agree on the fact majority of mmo gamers will never like open pvp let alone with full loot.
But Darkfall did ===>NOT<=== fail becouse of wolves.
It only failed on weak dev team that made bad discisions.
Started with BAD BETA most bugs exploits made it to live game no tress test and tthus to ealry launched which was also realy bad launch and the pre-order sceam.
Second huge mistake they made was splitting up the community to early after 6 months.
Biggest FAIL for Darkfall 1 was dumb zerg specially first 3 months and CHEATING by majority community.
If the game was properly tested and bugs solved plus exploites fixed and server was not split up plus community not CHEATED so much game would still be running and for niche rather succefull.
But it failed misrable and im realy sad about that.
I rememeber first time i enter AGON i was amazed how world felt amd looked and its graphics i though i entered morrowind world with better graphics.
I still think besides the many mistakes and failors and dumb community of cheaters game was AWESOME is sad its nomore.
Carebears-cheaters-devs have ruined this game that had great protention to be a small succes.
Hundreds of themeparks and still community know how to ruined this game bah:(
I started in '99 with AC-Darktide had my hopes for Darkfall sinds 2003 register on forumfall but my dream was crushed after realy trying for 2.5years playing Darkfall with ZERO CHEATING.
Now im lost to mmo's nomore im to burned out by all the dumbdown and themeparking every goddamn mmo thats released even dfuw is joke:(
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
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GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
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OS:Windows 10 64bit
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Age of Wushu has the best open world pvp balance since Star Wars Galaxies.
This is the basic formula for making good PvP:
- The world has to be very big
- There should be some long term goals (not battle ground objectives that are completed in one session)
- Down time for people who grief (Environment enforced)
- Bounty hunting system (Player enforced)
- It is a PK system with no factions
- Don't constantly over inflate the power of players (EVE example The Titan has been the best ship in the game for 10 years)
I agree that Age of Wushu did a great job. It was a great game at the start.
It kept the griefing to a minimum, but still allowed you to fight people pretty freely. They did a good job with the Bounty System too.
I wish they had thought about the constant grind though. It was like constant leveling of internals over and over and over and then meridians and internals. By the time I reached max level, it was time to start a new phase in grinding.
I wish the game had more depth to keep people playing just to play a fun game.
A housing system, a reason to play other than to get more skills.
Great fricking game though. I havent played a game that fun since Ultima Online. It just needed longevity for something other than internals and meridians.
Isn`t that always the reason given, when PvPers drive off their pray leaving them to devour themselves untill they rage-quit?
You fail to mention that the bounty system is only if the other player kills you in an unconscious state. If they just take your Life down to zero and leave you there to die eventually you can't put a bounty on them and there are zero repercussions for this person. So players figured this out in about 3 days and stopped killing other players all of the way.
This is exactly why I stopped playing that game. I was tending crops to make some food (crafting). 3 people from a griefer guild come along and put me unconscious. I come back. They do this repeatedly and laugh at me for being such and idiot to play a PVP game without a guild to back me up.
That's the last time I logged into that game. I found out that this open world PVP is not what I want to spend my time being a part of. To those that like this system I say have fun and enjoy it but it's not for me.
Maybe you are just not cut for PK rules? Never said these systems would have mass appeal. I just said they were balanced. This means determined players could make their way in these games and be successful.
Where exactly is the balance in the situation he describes?
Oh nevermind, it's the oh-so-dull and typical "Don't like it, leave" response. Well guess what, he did.
I said that this is the case with me and open world PVP games. It's not for me. Did you read my post? lol I was pointing out that 2 of your key points aren't particularly valid when the players know not to kill the other people all of the way. So again zero repurcussions for them.
"- Down time for people who grief (Environment enforced)
- Bounty hunting system (Player enforced)"
Making clans equivalent to classes. I got the idea from Naruto with ninja clans with shared techniques.
Make NPC clans/alliances kick for pvp outside of delcared wars. Player clans have the same option.
Clans must have physical location to operate or loss clan abilities.
Make the ability of clans/alliances to declare war on the person who attacks their clan/alliance members. The attacker's clan/alliance would be declared war on as well if the clan/alliance of the attacker doesn't kick them. Kicking would likely be the popular option to make guards attack aggressors and their clan/alliance automatically in case of a sneak attack. If the player is kicked he holds this declaration war on him and will bring it to the next clan he is allowed to join. NPC clans will automatically reject him. The option to kick the undeclared attacker would likely be popular to prevent trolling attacks.
Players who attack without war being declared can be locked up by the victims clan if defeated. Bounties can be set which will bring the player into jail if defeated by NPC or PC bounty hunters.
C'mon bud. Don't you feel that you are generalizing a bit much with this statement? There are tons of variables that affect a game's success or lack thereof. Providing for irresponsible PvP can be one of them, but the FFA model itself is not the sole arbiter of such. Its poor implementation certainly can be, but then again you can ascribe that failing to any mmo mechanic. PvP just happens to affect players more personally by virtue of its nature and is thus more likely to have a finger pointed at it.http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Nope I don't. It isn't everyone that pvp's it's just a large % of the people that like the no rules stuff+ full loot. When you rely on the players as your content, having the worst types of people attracted to your game is never going to end well.
Find a way to get rid of them and you'll find a way to make that type of pvp game work.
C'mon bud. Don't you feel that you are generalizing a bit much with this statement? There are tons of variables that affect a game's success or lack thereof. Providing for irresponsible PvP can be one of them, but the FFA model itself is not the sole arbiter of such. Its poor implementation certainly can be, but then again you can ascribe that failing to any mmo mechanic. PvP just happens to affect players more personally by virtue of its nature and is thus more likely to have a finger pointed at it.Nope I don't. It isn't everyone that pvp's it's just a large % of the people that like the no rules stuff+ full loot. When you rely on the players as your content, having the worst types of people attracted to your game is never going to end well.
Find a way to get rid of them and you'll find a way to make that type of pvp game work.
What are the "worst types?" Griefers? They can be dealt with even in a full loot FFA mmo. It is just seldom done correctly. Some people want ffa and full loot but also want role-playing and meaningful interactions. Every mmo has bad seeds. That doesn't mean that certain game mechanics are inherently bad, just that they are most often included without properly accounting for said bad seeds. In essence, improperly-coexisting game elements are a sign of poor design, and this is more noticable with PvP because of its intrusive nature. The elements themselves (like, say, ffa PvP) aren't the culprits, but the way they interact with each other are.http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
My experience on Tera has consisted mostly of lv 60´s killing lowbies, and people your level attacking you only when they got a full group to back them up, and running away from any sort of 1v1 confrontation.
And if you dare to turn outlaw on to fight someone in your area, every single vulture in the next 5 zones just drops in and witch hunts you.
In the end only those lv 60´s killing lowbies do any sort of "pvp"
When the object of the game becomes driving away other players, one would hope that the devs might stop and think that this isn't exactly good for business.
^This
The most innocent way to tell you people that FFA PVP is NOT a good way to go.
The rest of you that LOVE it...have fun. Maybe they will someday make a game that caters to you. They NEVER HAVE...contrary to your beliefs...but hey...maybe soon'ish?