The fact that SOE never understood the simple fact that a player SHOULD be able to learn more than one class or craft is ridiculous.
You are one of the majority on this site in that you are blinded by anti SoE hate (which is usually misguided anyway) that you are just ridiculously clueless.
In EQN you can learn to be every class and in EQ1 you can learn all crafts.
I also strongly disagree with you in that you should be able to do everything on one character, I like characters with permanent strengths and weaknesses. So the whole 'SHOULD' part of your ignorant statement is *highly* debatable.
There are TONS of ideas but not like SOE is much on the creative side,anything useful would end up cash shop or sold outright in an expansion.
Watch the Live videos. Although they haven't happened yet if they do as lined out it is extremely creative and far more engaging than... most games based upon a standard themepark, albeit with a few add ons.
Square Enix is the developer who IS creative,they have always been more so than any other developer and by a long shot.
Subjective to you. We all know about your love for the franchise.
Here is an example of ONE of Square's recent ideas>>>Players can play mobs in the game,unlock new mobs then take that to the mob>mob pvp stage.You can also combine spells/abilities utilizing a sort of multiclass mob design.
EQ had mob play, right? SE's system sounds great but you're bringing up creativity.
ARENA again utilizing mobs.What Square did was create a sort of magical snap shot idea,you had to capture an imprint of a mob,then you could take that mob to the pvp arena.
Once the mob scripting tools are in you can build and populate any arena and scenario you want, right?
How about that often over used or mis-used EVENTS topic?Square has Besieged,you could take that very idea and grow with it,tons more can be done with that idea.Just one simple example would be what SOE has already done,if you are say the player that gets the final blow on a super boss in an event,you could get a trophy for your house.
Great idea about the trophy but on the events part you should read up on the Rallying Calls. A month or two long public quest that actually adds to the world. The players build it and progress the worlds story rather than a patch magically placing it there.
How about instead of selling mounts or having them magically appear out of thin air,copy Square's idea of questing and hatching your own egg into a pet.The options here are again limitless,again look at Square Enix for ideas.
Great idea, hopefully EQN will have not only this but a farming aspect like AA.
How about the entire crafting area?Once you maximize a craft,you can do new content to unlock super crafts,like perhaps crafting your own house or being able to imbue.
Well in EQN/LM you can build your own house from scratch, so... As far as the crafting system it's already been said skills will be unlocked and that the ability to craft "higher tier" equivalents will be there. This along with items having other effects besides basic stats.
How about the simplest idea ever and again >>yes Square Enix,avoid the END game altogether or at least for many years to come.That is done by utilizing a sub class design,that gives your player tons more versatility and years of leveling each class all on the same player.The fact that SOE never understood the simple fact that a player SHOULD be able to learn more than one class or craft is ridiculous.
Yeah... EQN will have 40 separate classes to progress that aren't gained by seeing a trainer. Even if you play just one class as a main, once you gain the others you'll have a huge amount of customization since the secondary skills can cross over and as said above items can give modifiers.
You should watch all the videos that SoE has released from Live on. From the comment in orange it doesn't seem like you know much about the two MMOs (EQN/LM). I'm not trying to sound accusatory, just the honest truth. If what you listed is true EQN/LM are MMOs you would love. The ideas are very creative and if they pull off what they are planning it will be very different than what we are used to playing, FF11 & 14 included.
They already said there is not going to be a large end game focus on raiding or gear grind. However, they didn't say what there is going to be instead really. One of the random Georgeson interviews right after the reveal he talked about it. Said specifically do not expect big end game raiding focus at all.
Originally posted by Margulis They already said there is not going to be a large end game focus on raiding or gear grind. However, they didn't say what there is going to be instead really. One of the random Georgeson interviews right after the reveal he talked about it. Said specifically do not expect big end game raiding focus at all.
This is true although I think it's a matter of simply having big bosses or events to be a part of that could seem like raiding, at least raiding that is more inclusive than exclusive. I've watched all the videos released so far and the impression I get is that the same type of end game gear progression that WoW offers is what will start moment one in EQN. When you gain another class you will start at tier 0, or 1, and your progression is getting better and better gear up to the top tier. If this is true it's an interesting concept, replacing traditional numerical levels with "endgame" style tiered gear levels.
What possible end-game PvE content even theoretically can be created for non-raiders? I mean, end-game is by definition the end: you've gone through all the content there is. All that left is repeating the same content multiple time to get money/items, aka raiding.
I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?
Well, they could have very specific monsters that drop very specific parts for crafitng and special weapons, potions, etc.
That might be very grindy for most players but I thijnk it would suit me.
Even though I've gone through most (practically all) the content in Skyrim, I still play it as I enjoy the dungeon crawls. Perhaps they might have some sort of "random loot' where players can find very unique items in their adventures. I think that would suit me as well.
Then of course one can put it on the market and sell it or give it to guild crafters, etc.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So I haven't been covering this game for every detail but I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a sandbox? Isn't structured pve sort of the antithesis of sandbox gameplay?
I feel that choices should matter and that content should be reactive to them in a good pve model. Applied to classes/skills, this outlook means that a system providing for a sense of weight and consequence being given to your character role (i.e. choose your role/skills wisely) makes sense if content (environment, npcs, combat mechanics, dungeons, etc) is dynamic in relation to the character you have built. This makes replayability an attractive asset for players with "maxed out" characters. These possibilities extend further when you factor in potential effects of race, alliance, or any other lore-based mechanics that SOE might explore in this regard. I point this out only as a preamble to my next post and to suggest that if designed thus, a game's content can be enjoyed many times, provided the experience is of worthy quality and diversity. Next, I will touch on one possibility for continued content (I dislike the term "end-game".) I am on a phone and thus can't reliably make paragraphs, you see.
In a game as focused on the possibilities that building and crafting provide in a voxel-based world, there is no reason why this player-driven content can't be used to create continued gameplay in a pve model. Imagine there being relics that could be gained by top-tier groups in normal play that allowed for the creation of specialized, player-made regions that could be raided by epic npcs. That's right, dear player. YOU get raided, and you better make a badass realm of defensible pain for those epic mobs and their minions before they crush you. Maybe you awakened some ancient evil with your leet pve skills and they aren't havin that. With the advanced AI being touted in EQN, this is entirely possible. Perhaps these special realms could, if built to certain grandiose scales and defended against great odds, provide legendary rewards. This is line with Special Events, but could be player-driven, player-initiated, and unpredictable enough to have a sense of excitement. Just one example of continued content possible given the tools SOE is theoretically providing in Norrath.
Originally posted by djazzy So I haven't been covering this game for every detail but I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a sandbox? Isn't structured pve sort of the antithesis of sandbox gameplay?
As there is no one definition of what a "sandbox" is, it is up for you to decide. Personally, I think the only true sandbox is what the devs get to play with, a blank canvas to do whatever they wish. Once it is released to the public with any sort of limitation put in place, the freedom takes a hit.
With that said, I think EQN and especially EQN:LM are much more sandboxy than the typical mmo. There are a few others out there and some in the pipe, but none that will have the quality that these will bring.
Unlike the typical themepark where you have a very clear path laid out in front of you, EQN seems to "promise" a lot more possibilities and freedom in what you decide to do. There isn't an "endgame" or any real point to the game from what I've seen so far. Just a world for players to explore as they develop and progress their characters. We won't be "the one" to save the world, just another adventurer out for a good time. You can participate in world changing events or build a house. Either way, you will be doing what the devs intended.
As others have said, there doesn't appear to be an "endgame" at least not traditionally speaking. Raiding as we know it, maybe not exist in EQN.
Beyond housing and crafting, there is of course learning all the 40+ classes, all their abilities, gear for all of them and anything else character progress related, all of which will most likely depend on PVE content and take a long time to learn and master.
Rallying Calls and world events seem like they will take a long time and a lot of cooperation. Just going out and exploring, uncovering random "dungeons" and all the multiple tiers seems to be like endless PVE content. Haven't gone into it too much, but it seems like they will have some degree of randomness too them, so just because you did XYZ last week, doesn't mean you can't do them again this week with a totally different experience or that they will even still be around.
Also gave example of Crushbone with "thousands" of Orcs. Seems like that wouldn't be something a 20/40 man raid would do, but an huge number of players for days/weeks of fun. Not just a simple, meet up with your buddies and kill everything in a couple hours deal.
With the promise of improved AI, they've also said that players can cause mobs to react in different ways causing new events. Kill enough gnolls in an area, a cave could open and gnolls could come pouring out for everyone to fight back until they are all gone. Random, dynamic events are hopefully very present.
As I wait patiently for any news of EQN (not LM) I've been following Wildstar, oh how I hope EQN doesn't have traditional raiding and just running the same treadmill forever. Can't believe people are chomping at the bit to do the same content over and over and over (even if WS is snazzing it up a bit). I want every day to be something different, not a game that revolves around "endgame" content that has to be put on a calendar and followed in a linear boring progression. Day 1 - Year 10 should all be fun and just as exciting.
If you're not interested in typical MMORPG end game, why play MMORPGs? There ARE other game genres out there for people who don't like MMORPGs.
In fact, this is one of the reasons so many modern MMORPGs fail - attempting to appeal to people like this - people who aren't actually MMORPG players/lovers, when they should be focusing on actual MMORPG gameplay, content, and people who LIKE that stuff.
People who want single player content and single player experiences should probably, oh, I dunno, maybe, possibly, PLAY SINGLE PLAYER GAMES? Just a (logical) thought.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Originally posted by Grahor What possible end-game PvE content even theoretically can be created for non-raiders? I mean, end-game is by definition the end: you've gone through all the content there is. All that left is repeating the same content multiple time to get money/items, aka raiding.
.... Some logic you got there..
I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?
Open your mind a bit more.
Lets look at the problem, PvE is players verses environment. Environment encompasses: mobs, terrain, props, resources, and im sure there is more.
The biggest and most plausible idea is "world events" or what ever they are calling it.
Lets say a bridge needs to be built in order for players have access to a new area, This effort can only be done with the help of a huge community and a lot of time. You got people shoving dirt, Building bricks, And people defending the work site.
There is so much potential in actually manipulating the environment as an endgame.
When I think endgame my main thoughts are of difficult content.
Public open world content never manages to be difficult in any mmorpg ive ever played.
What possible end-game PvE content even theoretically can be created for non-raiders? I mean, end-game is by definition the end: you've gone through all the content there is. All that left is repeating the same content multiple time to get money/items, aka raiding.
I mean, there is crafting and trading, but I consider it to be a PvP content, since you don't compete against environment, but against other players on the market. Housing and so on needs money which you get through farming which is pretty much raiding, only for gold and not for items. What else can anyone think of?
Well that by very definition WOULD be the content.
Examples look at FFXi
Players can have fun doing various content ideas from raising a chocobo and other various chocobo ideas,Besieged is a great idea that has never got old.Now FFXI has added the ability to play as any mob in the game and level it up as well,eventually suppose to be pvp in it as well.
Then you could have various content to find and upgrade various gear and weapon types.Then you NEED to make levels actually meaningful,if a game just whisks you through levels,then might as well just skip game design and go right to end game raiding because your game would be a waste of time,nothing more than a level number you only see for a short moment.
This is why game design has been so terrible,you got one group saying levels should not be a grind then the other that actually wants a game and to make items mean something.If you have to work hard for an item you want it to last for more than a day or two without having to now replace it again.This is why devs make such shallow gaming,example linear questing,they cannot think of a better way to create longevity,so they have you run back n forth between yellow markers each and every day,instead of allowing you to choose how you want to become more skillful.
Without super long levels there is no need for anyone to want any items,just speed level and be done with the game,really a poor game design.IMO a level should last at least a month,each month represents a year in real life.
What do i expect from SOE?The same old,linear questing,yellow markers and raiding instances at end level.I have played EQ and EQ2 for a very long time,SOE is not very creative when comes to new content ideas.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Wrong on a few accounts. First, it's been stated there will not be symbols above heads for quests, they have to happen with you there or you have to seek them out. Second, the content that is static for a period of time, Rallying Calls, are said to be month or two long events that make a lasting change such as a city building built. Third, to say that SoE is not creative with content ideas is laughable. Just look at EQ2, a game you said you played. Housing, dungeon making, collection quests, in game books, the new crafting system, etc. all things that you don't see together in other MMOs. Not to mention the tools and tech. 3D TV capability, wind direction, thermal mapping, SoEmote, etc.
I know you don't like SoE and use every opporotunity you can to pimp SE titles but I'd seek the info that is out there for EQN/LM since you seemed to have taken an interest in them. You may just find a game you enjoy.
What do i expect from SOE?The same old,linear questing,yellow markers and raiding instances at end level.I have played EQ and EQ2 for a very long time,SOE is not very creative when comes to new content ideas.
Guess if you expect the complete opposite of what they've said, you are setting yourself up for surprise?
Devising non-raid PVE end-games content is always difficult. SWG did it most successfully, I believe, by making the PVE end-game about socialising - trading, professions, farming, architecture and cantina culture.
What possible end-game PvE content even theoretically can be created for non-raiders?
The usual answer involves gobs of systems (achievements, exploration, alt-o-mania, etc.) that would be insufficient to carry the ball individually, but collectively (hopefully) serve to keep the capped player involved and entertained. You can tell the difference between a mature and new title simply by the amount of lateral expansion into these lesser systems.
No one's come up with a third large answer to Endgame(?!!), after the Big Two (raid, pvp). But there are lots and lots and lots of little answers.
Some things i can think of off the top of my head.
AA system like EQ1 had
System to promote Exploration such as discovering things in the world that are in different locations each time so you can just google it to find u need to hunt for it, could be lore related or item related
Epic Weapon quests type things like EQ1 had these were long ass quests that gave u a class specific weapon in the end (maybe they should have a solo/small group one and a large group one) so both type of players can obtain one
With landmark and building structures im sure this will also be in EQN so i suspect we will see Guild halls or even cities that could be build, on pvp servers maybe guilds can fight eachother over them or somthing aswell (kinda like darkfall had)
Random events for example orcs grow in numbers and try and seige NPC/Player cities and you get to defend in and so on.
Then you have crafting where u can hunt for rare recipes and stuff hidden away in the world and stuff like that.
Nvm, I was bored and wrote a wall of text what a "sandbox game" could have as content. Not sure if I'm even interested in EQN, it's propably something that I expect it to be like mmorpgs past 5-10 years...
I think that, at some point, SoE asked themselves "how can we keep up with the demand for new content - which mainly comes down to "end-game" content of course.
Hence the idea for Landmark; user generated content - like dungeon masters creating content back in the day.
At the moment however Landmark looks to be a in its own right. Almost as though someone has said "we have to get these tools we have developed to pay for themselves. So the building tools are there but there is a collecting game as well. It has expanded beyond its initial idea - and the question is whether that will attain supremacy. Producing a steady stream of EQ N content; so much content that they can blow it up on a regular basis!
So as far as end-game content goes ... have to see.
Comments
You are one of the majority on this site in that you are blinded by anti SoE hate (which is usually misguided anyway) that you are just ridiculously clueless.
In EQN you can learn to be every class and in EQ1 you can learn all crafts.
I also strongly disagree with you in that you should be able to do everything on one character, I like characters with permanent strengths and weaknesses. So the whole 'SHOULD' part of your ignorant statement is *highly* debatable.
You should watch all the videos that SoE has released from Live on. From the comment in orange it doesn't seem like you know much about the two MMOs (EQN/LM). I'm not trying to sound accusatory, just the honest truth. If what you listed is true EQN/LM are MMOs you would love. The ideas are very creative and if they pull off what they are planning it will be very different than what we are used to playing, FF11 & 14 included.
This is true although I think it's a matter of simply having big bosses or events to be a part of that could seem like raiding, at least raiding that is more inclusive than exclusive. I've watched all the videos released so far and the impression I get is that the same type of end game gear progression that WoW offers is what will start moment one in EQN. When you gain another class you will start at tier 0, or 1, and your progression is getting better and better gear up to the top tier. If this is true it's an interesting concept, replacing traditional numerical levels with "endgame" style tiered gear levels.
Well, they could have very specific monsters that drop very specific parts for crafitng and special weapons, potions, etc.
That might be very grindy for most players but I thijnk it would suit me.
Even though I've gone through most (practically all) the content in Skyrim, I still play it as I enjoy the dungeon crawls. Perhaps they might have some sort of "random loot' where players can find very unique items in their adventures. I think that would suit me as well.
Then of course one can put it on the market and sell it or give it to guild crafters, etc.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
SOE has done this - FreeRealms (launched 2009)
one character has access to all classes and all crafts
EQ2 fan sites
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
As there is no one definition of what a "sandbox" is, it is up for you to decide. Personally, I think the only true sandbox is what the devs get to play with, a blank canvas to do whatever they wish. Once it is released to the public with any sort of limitation put in place, the freedom takes a hit.
With that said, I think EQN and especially EQN:LM are much more sandboxy than the typical mmo. There are a few others out there and some in the pipe, but none that will have the quality that these will bring.
Unlike the typical themepark where you have a very clear path laid out in front of you, EQN seems to "promise" a lot more possibilities and freedom in what you decide to do. There isn't an "endgame" or any real point to the game from what I've seen so far. Just a world for players to explore as they develop and progress their characters. We won't be "the one" to save the world, just another adventurer out for a good time. You can participate in world changing events or build a house. Either way, you will be doing what the devs intended.
As others have said, there doesn't appear to be an "endgame" at least not traditionally speaking. Raiding as we know it, maybe not exist in EQN.
Beyond housing and crafting, there is of course learning all the 40+ classes, all their abilities, gear for all of them and anything else character progress related, all of which will most likely depend on PVE content and take a long time to learn and master.
Rallying Calls and world events seem like they will take a long time and a lot of cooperation. Just going out and exploring, uncovering random "dungeons" and all the multiple tiers seems to be like endless PVE content. Haven't gone into it too much, but it seems like they will have some degree of randomness too them, so just because you did XYZ last week, doesn't mean you can't do them again this week with a totally different experience or that they will even still be around.
Also gave example of Crushbone with "thousands" of Orcs. Seems like that wouldn't be something a 20/40 man raid would do, but an huge number of players for days/weeks of fun. Not just a simple, meet up with your buddies and kill everything in a couple hours deal.
With the promise of improved AI, they've also said that players can cause mobs to react in different ways causing new events. Kill enough gnolls in an area, a cave could open and gnolls could come pouring out for everyone to fight back until they are all gone. Random, dynamic events are hopefully very present.
As I wait patiently for any news of EQN (not LM) I've been following Wildstar, oh how I hope EQN doesn't have traditional raiding and just running the same treadmill forever. Can't believe people are chomping at the bit to do the same content over and over and over (even if WS is snazzing it up a bit). I want every day to be something different, not a game that revolves around "endgame" content that has to be put on a calendar and followed in a linear boring progression. Day 1 - Year 10 should all be fun and just as exciting.
If you're not interested in typical MMORPG end game, why play MMORPGs? There ARE other game genres out there for people who don't like MMORPGs.
In fact, this is one of the reasons so many modern MMORPGs fail - attempting to appeal to people like this - people who aren't actually MMORPG players/lovers, when they should be focusing on actual MMORPG gameplay, content, and people who LIKE that stuff.
People who want single player content and single player experiences should probably, oh, I dunno, maybe, possibly, PLAY SINGLE PLAYER GAMES? Just a (logical) thought.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
When I think endgame my main thoughts are of difficult content.
Public open world content never manages to be difficult in any mmorpg ive ever played.
Well that by very definition WOULD be the content.
Examples look at FFXi
Players can have fun doing various content ideas from raising a chocobo and other various chocobo ideas,Besieged is a great idea that has never got old.Now FFXI has added the ability to play as any mob in the game and level it up as well,eventually suppose to be pvp in it as well.
Then you could have various content to find and upgrade various gear and weapon types.Then you NEED to make levels actually meaningful,if a game just whisks you through levels,then might as well just skip game design and go right to end game raiding because your game would be a waste of time,nothing more than a level number you only see for a short moment.
This is why game design has been so terrible,you got one group saying levels should not be a grind then the other that actually wants a game and to make items mean something.If you have to work hard for an item you want it to last for more than a day or two without having to now replace it again.This is why devs make such shallow gaming,example linear questing,they cannot think of a better way to create longevity,so they have you run back n forth between yellow markers each and every day,instead of allowing you to choose how you want to become more skillful.
Without super long levels there is no need for anyone to want any items,just speed level and be done with the game,really a poor game design.IMO a level should last at least a month,each month represents a year in real life.
What do i expect from SOE?The same old,linear questing,yellow markers and raiding instances at end level.I have played EQ and EQ2 for a very long time,SOE is not very creative when comes to new content ideas.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Wrong on a few accounts. First, it's been stated there will not be symbols above heads for quests, they have to happen with you there or you have to seek them out. Second, the content that is static for a period of time, Rallying Calls, are said to be month or two long events that make a lasting change such as a city building built. Third, to say that SoE is not creative with content ideas is laughable. Just look at EQ2, a game you said you played. Housing, dungeon making, collection quests, in game books, the new crafting system, etc. all things that you don't see together in other MMOs. Not to mention the tools and tech. 3D TV capability, wind direction, thermal mapping, SoEmote, etc.
I know you don't like SoE and use every opporotunity you can to pimp SE titles but I'd seek the info that is out there for EQN/LM since you seemed to have taken an interest in them. You may just find a game you enjoy.
Guess if you expect the complete opposite of what they've said, you are setting yourself up for surprise?
Dave Georgeson interview somewhere SOE said: "if you can't find content...the content will find you" !!!
The usual answer involves gobs of systems (achievements, exploration, alt-o-mania, etc.) that would be insufficient to carry the ball individually, but collectively (hopefully) serve to keep the capped player involved and entertained. You can tell the difference between a mature and new title simply by the amount of lateral expansion into these lesser systems.
No one's come up with a third large answer to Endgame(?!!), after the Big Two (raid, pvp). But there are lots and lots and lots of little answers.
Some things i can think of off the top of my head.
AA system like EQ1 had
System to promote Exploration such as discovering things in the world that are in different locations each time so you can just google it to find u need to hunt for it, could be lore related or item related
Epic Weapon quests type things like EQ1 had these were long ass quests that gave u a class specific weapon in the end (maybe they should have a solo/small group one and a large group one) so both type of players can obtain one
With landmark and building structures im sure this will also be in EQN so i suspect we will see Guild halls or even cities that could be build, on pvp servers maybe guilds can fight eachother over them or somthing aswell (kinda like darkfall had)
Random events for example orcs grow in numbers and try and seige NPC/Player cities and you get to defend in and so on.
Then you have crafting where u can hunt for rare recipes and stuff hidden away in the world and stuff like that.
Nvm, I was bored and wrote a wall of text what a "sandbox game" could have as content. Not sure if I'm even interested in EQN, it's propably something that I expect it to be like mmorpgs past 5-10 years...
I think that, at some point, SoE asked themselves "how can we keep up with the demand for new content - which mainly comes down to "end-game" content of course.
Hence the idea for Landmark; user generated content - like dungeon masters creating content back in the day.
At the moment however Landmark looks to be a in its own right. Almost as though someone has said "we have to get these tools we have developed to pay for themselves. So the building tools are there but there is a collecting game as well. It has expanded beyond its initial idea - and the question is whether that will attain supremacy. Producing a steady stream of EQ N content; so much content that they can blow it up on a regular basis!
So as far as end-game content goes ... have to see.