Yes I have noticed more and more of the last few years a growing trend of whiny babies that have no social skills what so ever come in and macro spam, I need money, someone give me a gold, someone help me do a quest I could easily do on my own next level,..... Very annoying.
Im the kind of player that I truely enjoy helping my fellow players. I DO NOT put huge markups on DROPS. Damn thing didnt cost me anything so why should I sell it for 5 billionkagillionfofillion buttnuggets? SWG did a GOOD thing (only one really) They put a price cap on items. I think EVERY item in the game should have a max sell value. If they would do this then the run away economies would stop as well a majority of online gold buying.
ok I have heard people say that they see no reason why a person shouldnt have everything right out of the box... True story that just happend a few days ago in wow.
I have a level 59 warrior in World of Warcraft. I was asked to join a group and did so. We were going into an Instanced Dungeon called Stratholme. We had a level 60 Paladin, a 59 Warrior(me) a level 57 Priest, 2 Rogues 57+ In the second group we had a mage, a druid and another warrior. 8 man raid group. Well everything was fine at first but then the $#!+ hit the fan and we all got wiped. Ok it happens some times so we go back, after this happens for the 3rd! Time we start figuring out the Paladin isnt using hardly any of his abilities and is do ZERO backup heals when the other healers are dying.
Turns out the Paladin was a 16 year old whos uncle had bought him a level 60 Paladin with Epic Mount and Tons of epic or rare items. He had been playing for 2 days and didnt know crap about how to play.
So Im sorry but the whole idea of getting everything right out of the box is BS cry baby crap from people who have no desire to truely experiance the game, they just want the world on a stick with no darn clue what to do with it when they get it.
Jimmy is so right. The ONLY game I've found to be FUN and not a grindage boring stuff was Guild Wars.
What I did? log into guild wars LFG mission start mission next mission next mission next mission next mission
The game has a path. I just keep going forward and forward, MEANWHILE my character was being developed. Getting items in the process, and buying skills in the new areas. I was having fun PLAYING, not an MMO, but it could be... seriously. The only downfall is that only monks could heal and they were somewhat hard to get in a group, since once a monk said "lfg" I'd never get him into my party (I played a ranger, the overplayed good-looking gimped class)
And the missions weren't boring 4 hours long stuff... some were hard and required strategy, I just really felt like I was doing something since the beginning and kept going forward.
So why the damn soprise? Instant gratification = 21 century logic.
This is todays culture folks. "I want it all and i want it now!" Young generation grew up on MTV where they experience 1 whole story in 2 minutes at least 100 times a day. They are bombarded by visual stimuli and information.
Instant gratification is not their wish - it is their need. God knows that they can not stay focused for more than 3 minutes. Reading a book is a nightmare for them , even comics are under 20 pages.
Ever wondered why every other kid today suffers from hyperactivity ?
In MMORPG kids try to finish the game in minimum possible time (and yes this is one of the reasons why we have end game today)This is their only goal , to play a game that takes year to reach high levels - i think this would kill them.
And in the mean time we old blokes still belive in old eastern proverb
"It is not your goal that is important , but the way you pass to get there."
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
don't forget education systems are extremely different now days and the standards for EVERYTHING are being raised every year. New books are written, sometimes better than old ones... new movies are made, sometimes better than old ones...
If they're not better than the past, then why play it?
That's why WoW succeeded. It was all the other games just more polished and in shorter time so that anyone could play it and have fun until they reached the end. It wasn't trying to lie to you by having you play the same game just for an entire year in length. If you wanted to play more, you could create a new character.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe 8hammer8 wrote:If you have: Then you need: less skill = +time +determination/competitiveness less time = +skill +determination/competitiveness less det/comp = no chance for success, you will put forth niether time nor skill, cause you won't care So what if you're really determined but you have neither time nor skill? Kind of hard to not be deflated when you suck and have no time to get good. Or do you believe that people like that just shouldn't be playing the game? I really fuckin' hate elitism, in case you can't tell.
Jimmy,
What is the point of your question, "So what if you're really determined but you have neither time nor skill?" If you do not have the time to play MMORPG's to get better and when you do find a moment to play and you find that you are not skilled at it, isn't your effort better put into a different aspect of your life. MMORPG's for the most part cost money every month, and you are telling me that someone should go out and pay for the game then $10-15/mo. on something they do not even have the time to get their monies worth out of? If you have money to waste this doesn't apply, but most people I know do not have money to waste.
I am not saying this from an elitest point of view, this comes from a realistic point of view. Take me and the game of golf. In general I am a very competitive person, I played sports all my life and played baseball through college (and still do), but I never had the time to play golf (even though I wanted to and my firends did) and I still don't. Would it make sense for me to purchase me to purchase clubs then a memeber ship to the course? I would get to the course finally at some point when I had extra time then I would see other people being successful but not me because I have never had the chance to spend time on it. Me being competitive as I am would start getting upset, not at other people, but at myself for sucking so bad. Not really what I would consider a good use of my time. Why should I keep paying my membership if my game is bad and I do not have the time to improve it even though I really want to?
Your question becomes irrelavent once a person chooses to start making time to do something, then they will be able to improve, just like I would be able to if I put more time in on a golf course. This all ties back into the instant gratification aspect in that most people want to be good right away and will quit anyways before being willing to put in the time, therefore rendering our conversation mute. I would have to say a person who is more "need-it-now" will have on average less determination than someone who has a more "delayed gratification" personality.
BTW Elitist do suck
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
WoW was an atom bomb, and it exploded and blew everything out of the water. But now A bunch of people are quitting WOW, tons of people
There are just so many more replacing them it dosent matter, but for the rest of us the games are adding things to expand there nets and catch as much of the Fallout as they can.
A new term has showd up on eq2 forums, people saying WoWerquest or WoWification, but alot of the things they are doing are not bad or dming down, there like nice little bonuses.
But i hope they dont go any further or i might get upset, im sure the rest of you know what im talking about.
But basicly We are all under the wow shadow, but the dust is beging to settle and we are now in nuclear winter
I don't particularly agree with a lot of the recent posts about instant-gratification being a new phenomenon.
When I played a MUD called DragonRealms, it was available only through the GenIE service. It was later added to AOL and it's 50some population grew to 100some players. AOL went from a per minute connection cost to an unlimmited plan. The population exploded. This is 1995 / 1996 and us established players got real fed up with the griefing, crying, and 'gimmie! gimmie! gimmie!' attitudes.
The instant-gratification existed then. Around 1997 (first time I found out about it, may have been going on sooner) the first characters started going-up for sale in hidden backrooms. Characters, equipment, gold, you name it. It couldn't be stopped. People didn't want to play for 5 years to get a decent character, so they purchased it from someone that knew how to run scripts so that the characters were training 24x7.
Instant-gratification isn't new. As has been mentioned, it may be due to people that were introduced to MMORPGs through WOW or some other game moving on to something new, but this mentality has always existed and many established players who have been around for years have this mentality (as can be seen when they start new games or new characters and have the same attitude).
I've known quite a few people (I work with some of them!) who start new characters and start looking for handouts, even in games like EverQuest where they have multiple 60+ level characters! It's not a phenomenon that is new, and it's certainly not just kids that do it. My co-workers are in their 30s and like me, have played multiple games, have families, etc. I don't know why they do it, but they do and it's not just them - online buddies in guilds and such that I know where at least 25 years old have done this too.
I think if a poll were run that caught a variety of players from different games asking if they have ever, would ever, or will again ask for handouts and such in a very annoying way, the results would be pretty high (30% to 48% is my guess) of people who have or will do this.
Your question becomes irrelavent once a person chooses to start making time to do something, then they will be able to improve, just like I would be able to if I put more time in on a golf course
Okay, I'll admit to being real snippy in my reply. My real problem has more to do with the design of MMORPGs. For starters, these aren't exactly "pick up and play" games. MMORPGs suffer from the same problem that arcade fighting games had almost a decade ago. As long as you got in on the game within the first week it came out and played it against other people for 4+ hours a day over the course of several months, then you could compete. This cut out casual gamers completely. This even cut out a few hardcore gamers that played a large variety of games rather than focusing on just one at a time. MMORPGs are EXACTLY like this.
I consider myself a very skilled player when it comes to FPS and fighting games. To me, MMORPGs don't really reward skillful play so much as the time invested in the game. This is poor design. If I can't play the game for 30 minutes or less a day (or learn it in less than 10 minutes) and improve in some way, then the game has some real problems.
Current MMORPGs are kinda like Diablo 2 stretched out over thousands of hours. Kill, loot, level, rinse, and repeat. The gaps in advancement are paced in such a way to keep you playing for no other reason than to level up. What these "instant gratification" people want, is less time farming and gathering, and more time playing the game. A good example would be the quests in EQ that required you to be a certain level before you could do them. This meant that you had to go and farm mobs for hours before you could actually enjoy the games content. You may feel differently, but I think that's a pretty shitty excuse for gameplay. Pace the game correctly and have tons of content available and you won't have as much of a problem with begging. Although, there will always be some that want something for nothing. Hence all the cheats and trainers floating around the net.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe 8hammer8 wrote:Your question becomes irrelavent once a person chooses to start making time to do something, then they will be able to improve, just like I would be able to if I put more time in on a golf courseOkay, I'll admit to being real snippy in my reply. My real problem has more to do with the design of MMORPGs. For starters, these aren't exactly "pick up and play" games. MMORPGs suffer from the same problem that arcade fighting games had almost a decade ago. As long as you got in on the game within the first week it came out and played it against other people for 4+ hours a day over the course of several months, then you could compete. This cut out casual gamers completely. This even cut out a few hardcore gamers that played a large variety of games rather than focusing on just one at a time. MMORPGs are EXACTLY like this. I consider myself a very skilled player when it comes to FPS and fighting games. To me, MMORPGs don't really reward skillful play so much as the time invested in the game. This is poor design. If I can't play the game for 30 minutes or less a day (or learn it in less than 10 minutes) and improve in some way, then the game has some real problems. Current MMORPGs are kinda like Diablo 2 stretched out over thousands of hours. Kill, loot, level, rinse, and repeat. The gaps in advancement are paced in such a way to keep you playing for no other reason than to level up. What these "instant gratification" people want, is less time farming and gathering, and more time playing the game. A good example would be the quests in EQ that required you to be a certain level before you could do them. This meant that you had to go and farm mobs for hours before you could actually enjoy the games content. You may feel differently, but I think that's a pretty shitty excuse for gameplay. Pace the game correctly and have tons of content available and you won't have as much of a problem with begging. Although, there will always be some that want something for nothing. Hence all the cheats and trainers floating around the net.
I agree with you about some similiarities between MMO's and the fighting games like the original StreetFighter back in the day. I remember popping in a few quarters then going against kids that could barely see over the controls and getting owned all over the screen. Hell, I remember beggers back then..."Hey man, can I borrow a quarter, I did not get any lunch money from my Mom." A similarity between the two though is the time needed to put in order to dominate someone else. This only counts of course for those who's sole purpose of playing games is to be able to brag about being the best or that they have the leet gear.
But you do have to realise that there is an exact opposite arguement against FPS's that you have against MMO's. There are going to be those gamers that do not have the twitch muscle control to be succesful in games like CS or Halo and they will say the game is of poor design because no matter how much time they put in, they can not get any better. In the end people will gravitate towards those games they find easy to play or they will put in the time and effort to get better at ones they struggle with. It is when they do not want to put in the time and they struggle that the beggars really come out though.
Most Diablo2 and WoW type MMO's are designed to sink your time, but you know that going into it. If a company charges you a monthly fee then they have to be able to A) hold your interest give enough content to continue to explore C) give you high level options. With your EQ example, there should be plenty of content to go through before trying to get to the content you are not allowed access to and by the time you finish that then you should be ready for it. Some people see it as a goal and it drives them to get to that point, others see it as an obstacle to complain about. Respond or react are a persons only two choices when faced with a decision.
The instant gratification crowd either do not have goals or their only goal is to look the most leet asap, no matter how they get there. It has nothing to do with lack of content. They have the same amount of content as those who are happy with the game and are not begging. Leveling gives some people a sense of accomplishment, which is honestly why I like Guild Wars...it is not about levels...it is about putting your build, individual or team, up against someone elses. While I will not put Guild Wars specifically in the MMO category (CORPG ..yes) you get my point.
Take the time to enjoy the journey and the end rewards are just that much sweeter
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
Lol, yes, and they've been there for about 4 years now. They're called 12 to 15 year olds. They started showing up in Ultima Online in mass around 2003, with the release of the shiney and overpowered new items in Age Of Shadows. Unfortunately, the game has gone more and more in their favor, with the average age of players dropping like the 2002 stock market. Now, developers for UO are giving away very powerfull items almost for free. With what would take alot of skill, a powerfull character, and 60 hours to obtain in the past, even better items can be obtained in only 2 hours now.
Constantly lowering age = constantly lowering standards and quicker gratification.
Comments
Yes I have noticed more and more of the last few years a growing trend of whiny babies that have no social skills what so ever come in and macro spam, I need money, someone give me a gold, someone help me do a quest I could easily do on my own next level,..... Very annoying.
Im the kind of player that I truely enjoy helping my fellow players. I DO NOT put huge markups on DROPS. Damn thing didnt cost me anything so why should I sell it for 5 billionkagillionfofillion buttnuggets? SWG did a GOOD thing (only one really) They put a price cap on items. I think EVERY item in the game should have a max sell value. If they would do this then the run away economies would stop as well a majority of online gold buying.
ok I have heard people say that they see no reason why a person shouldnt have everything right out of the box... True story that just happend a few days ago in wow.
I have a level 59 warrior in World of Warcraft. I was asked to join a group and did so. We were going into an Instanced Dungeon called Stratholme. We had a level 60 Paladin, a 59 Warrior(me) a level 57 Priest, 2 Rogues 57+ In the second group we had a mage, a druid and another warrior. 8 man raid group. Well everything was fine at first but then the $#!+ hit the fan and we all got wiped. Ok it happens some times so we go back, after this happens for the 3rd! Time we start figuring out the Paladin isnt using hardly any of his abilities and is do ZERO backup heals when the other healers are dying.
Turns out the Paladin was a 16 year old whos uncle had bought him a level 60 Paladin with Epic Mount and Tons of epic or rare items. He had been playing for 2 days and didnt know crap about how to play.
So Im sorry but the whole idea of getting everything right out of the box is BS cry baby crap from people who have no desire to truely experiance the game, they just want the world on a stick with no darn clue what to do with it when they get it.
(rant off, sorry couldnt hold that one in.)
http://world5.monstersgame.co.uk/?ac=vid&vid=59148058
Jimmy is so right.
The ONLY game I've found to be FUN and not a grindage boring stuff was Guild Wars.
What I did?
log into guild wars
LFG mission
start mission
next mission
next mission
next mission
next mission
The game has a path.
I just keep going forward and forward, MEANWHILE my character was being developed. Getting items in the process, and buying skills in the new areas. I was having fun PLAYING, not an MMO, but it could be... seriously. The only downfall is that only monks could heal and they were somewhat hard to get in a group, since once a monk said "lfg" I'd never get him into my party (I played a ranger, the overplayed good-looking gimped class)
And the missions weren't boring 4 hours long stuff... some were hard and required strategy, I just really felt like I was doing something since the beginning and kept going forward.
A pity that GW is not an MMO.
So why the damn soprise? Instant gratification = 21 century logic.
This is todays culture folks. "I want it all and i want it now!" Young generation grew up on MTV where they experience 1 whole story in 2 minutes at least 100 times a day. They are bombarded by visual stimuli and information.
Instant gratification is not their wish - it is their need. God knows that they can not stay focused for more than 3 minutes. Reading a book is a nightmare for them , even comics are under 20 pages.
Ever wondered why every other kid today suffers from hyperactivity ?
In MMORPG kids try to finish the game in minimum possible time (and yes this is one of the reasons why we have end game today)This is their only goal , to play a game that takes year to reach high levels - i think this would kill them.
And in the mean time we old blokes still belive in old eastern proverb
"It is not your goal that is important , but the way you pass to get there."
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
don't forget education systems are extremely different now days and the standards for EVERYTHING are being raised every year. New books are written, sometimes better than old ones... new movies are made, sometimes better than old ones...
If they're not better than the past, then why play it?
That's why WoW succeeded. It was all the other games just more polished and in shorter time so that anyone could play it and have fun until they reached the end. It wasn't trying to lie to you by having you play the same game just for an entire year in length. If you wanted to play more, you could create a new character.
Jimmy,
What is the point of your question, "So what if you're really determined but you have neither time nor skill?" If you do not have the time to play MMORPG's to get better and when you do find a moment to play and you find that you are not skilled at it, isn't your effort better put into a different aspect of your life. MMORPG's for the most part cost money every month, and you are telling me that someone should go out and pay for the game then $10-15/mo. on something they do not even have the time to get their monies worth out of? If you have money to waste this doesn't apply, but most people I know do not have money to waste.
I am not saying this from an elitest point of view, this comes from a realistic point of view. Take me and the game of golf. In general I am a very competitive person, I played sports all my life and played baseball through college (and still do), but I never had the time to play golf (even though I wanted to and my firends did) and I still don't. Would it make sense for me to purchase me to purchase clubs then a memeber ship to the course? I would get to the course finally at some point when I had extra time then I would see other people being successful but not me because I have never had the chance to spend time on it. Me being competitive as I am would start getting upset, not at other people, but at myself for sucking so bad. Not really what I would consider a good use of my time. Why should I keep paying my membership if my game is bad and I do not have the time to improve it even though I really want to?
Your question becomes irrelavent once a person chooses to start making time to do something, then they will be able to improve, just like I would be able to if I put more time in on a golf course. This all ties back into the instant gratification aspect in that most people want to be good right away and will quit anyways before being willing to put in the time, therefore rendering our conversation mute. I would have to say a person who is more "need-it-now" will have on average less determination than someone who has a more "delayed gratification" personality.
BTW Elitist do suck
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
THis is how i like to think of it
WoW was an atom bomb, and it exploded and blew everything out of the water. But now A bunch of people are quitting WOW, tons of people
There are just so many more replacing them it dosent matter, but for the rest of us the games are adding things to expand there nets and catch as much of the Fallout as they can.
A new term has showd up on eq2 forums, people saying WoWerquest or WoWification, but alot of the things they are doing are not bad or dming down, there like nice little bonuses.
But i hope they dont go any further or i might get upset, im sure the rest of you know what im talking about.
But basicly We are all under the wow shadow, but the dust is beging to settle and we are now in nuclear winter
The new EQ2, better than ever befor !
don't click this link...
I don't particularly agree with a lot of the recent posts about instant-gratification being a new phenomenon.
When I played a MUD called DragonRealms, it was available only through the GenIE service. It was later added to AOL and it's 50some population grew to 100some players. AOL went from a per minute connection cost to an unlimmited plan. The population exploded. This is 1995 / 1996 and us established players got real fed up with the griefing, crying, and 'gimmie! gimmie! gimmie!' attitudes.
The instant-gratification existed then. Around 1997 (first time I found out about it, may have been going on sooner) the first characters started going-up for sale in hidden backrooms. Characters, equipment, gold, you name it. It couldn't be stopped. People didn't want to play for 5 years to get a decent character, so they purchased it from someone that knew how to run scripts so that the characters were training 24x7.
Instant-gratification isn't new. As has been mentioned, it may be due to people that were introduced to MMORPGs through WOW or some other game moving on to something new, but this mentality has always existed and many established players who have been around for years have this mentality (as can be seen when they start new games or new characters and have the same attitude).
I've known quite a few people (I work with some of them!) who start new characters and start looking for handouts, even in games like EverQuest where they have multiple 60+ level characters! It's not a phenomenon that is new, and it's certainly not just kids that do it. My co-workers are in their 30s and like me, have played multiple games, have families, etc. I don't know why they do it, but they do and it's not just them - online buddies in guilds and such that I know where at least 25 years old have done this too.
I think if a poll were run that caught a variety of players from different games asking if they have ever, would ever, or will again ask for handouts and such in a very annoying way, the results would be pretty high (30% to 48% is my guess) of people who have or will do this.
Regards,
Gabriel
8hammer8 wrote:
Your question becomes irrelavent once a person chooses to start making time to do something, then they will be able to improve, just like I would be able to if I put more time in on a golf course
Okay, I'll admit to being real snippy in my reply. My real problem has more to do with the design of MMORPGs. For starters, these aren't exactly "pick up and play" games. MMORPGs suffer from the same problem that arcade fighting games had almost a decade ago. As long as you got in on the game within the first week it came out and played it against other people for 4+ hours a day over the course of several months, then you could compete. This cut out casual gamers completely. This even cut out a few hardcore gamers that played a large variety of games rather than focusing on just one at a time. MMORPGs are EXACTLY like this.
I consider myself a very skilled player when it comes to FPS and fighting games. To me, MMORPGs don't really reward skillful play so much as the time invested in the game. This is poor design. If I can't play the game for 30 minutes or less a day (or learn it in less than 10 minutes) and improve in some way, then the game has some real problems.
Current MMORPGs are kinda like Diablo 2 stretched out over thousands of hours. Kill, loot, level, rinse, and repeat. The gaps in advancement are paced in such a way to keep you playing for no other reason than to level up. What these "instant gratification" people want, is less time farming and gathering, and more time playing the game. A good example would be the quests in EQ that required you to be a certain level before you could do them. This meant that you had to go and farm mobs for hours before you could actually enjoy the games content. You may feel differently, but I think that's a pretty shitty excuse for gameplay. Pace the game correctly and have tons of content available and you won't have as much of a problem with begging. Although, there will always be some that want something for nothing. Hence all the cheats and trainers floating around the net.
I for one vote for tougher games with more complexity.
Not easy-mode free ride handholding
I agree with you about some similiarities between MMO's and the fighting games like the original StreetFighter back in the day. I remember popping in a few quarters then going against kids that could barely see over the controls and getting owned all over the screen. Hell, I remember beggers back then..."Hey man, can I borrow a quarter, I did not get any lunch money from my Mom." A similarity between the two though is the time needed to put in order to dominate someone else. This only counts of course for those who's sole purpose of playing games is to be able to brag about being the best or that they have the leet gear.
But you do have to realise that there is an exact opposite arguement against FPS's that you have against MMO's. There are going to be those gamers that do not have the twitch muscle control to be succesful in games like CS or Halo and they will say the game is of poor design because no matter how much time they put in, they can not get any better. In the end people will gravitate towards those games they find easy to play or they will put in the time and effort to get better at ones they struggle with. It is when they do not want to put in the time and they struggle that the beggars really come out though.
Most Diablo2 and WoW type MMO's are designed to sink your time, but you know that going into it. If a company charges you a monthly fee then they have to be able to A) hold your interest
give enough content to continue to explore C) give you high level options. With your EQ example, there should be plenty of content to go through before trying to get to the content you are not allowed access to and by the time you finish that then you should be ready for it. Some people see it as a goal and it drives them to get to that point, others see it as an obstacle to complain about. Respond or react are a persons only two choices when faced with a decision.
The instant gratification crowd either do not have goals or their only goal is to look the most leet asap, no matter how they get there. It has nothing to do with lack of content. They have the same amount of content as those who are happy with the game and are not begging. Leveling gives some people a sense of accomplishment, which is honestly why I like Guild Wars...it is not about levels...it is about putting your build, individual or team, up against someone elses. While I will not put Guild Wars specifically in the MMO category (CORPG ..yes) you get my point.
Take the time to enjoy the journey and the end rewards are just that much sweeter
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
Lol, yes, and they've been there for about 4 years now. They're called 12 to 15 year olds. They started showing up in Ultima Online in mass around 2003, with the release of the shiney and overpowered new items in Age Of Shadows. Unfortunately, the game has gone more and more in their favor, with the average age of players dropping like the 2002 stock market. Now, developers for UO are giving away very powerfull items almost for free. With what would take alot of skill, a powerfull character, and 60 hours to obtain in the past, even better items can be obtained in only 2 hours now.
Constantly lowering age = constantly lowering standards and quicker gratification.