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Thoughts on eve-style ffa pvp?
Stupersting
Member Posts: 31
Hey guys. Its pretty easy to see after a few months here that most people hate open world pvp.
So how do you feel about the sectioned-pvp?
systems similar to eve and highsec..
EDIT: Decided to clarify this question, the old questions are below if interested.
Would you play a game that had open-ffa-pvp areas if you didn't have to enter them, but doing so would give you a bit of an advantage over players who choose to play ONLY in the safe zone? You would be able to go back and forth.
Further more, would you be more inclined to play if the dangerous zone discouraged random killing for no reason?
Example: The more kills you get, the more risk you take, until eventually (Probably after a lot of kills) you would be almost guaranteed to lose any fight. This way players would be careful about who they plan on attacking.
Old questions:
Pro-ffa pvpers, would you still play a game if only certain sections were ffa pvp?
Anti-ffa pvpers, would you play a game where part of the world is ffa pvp, but others safe? How would this have to be implemented for you to consider playing it?
Examples: FFA pvp only: in areas where rare mats/spawns can be found/ only areas that aren't required to progress/wilderness areas/ non-quest areas/ ect.
Second question:
If you were to play a game, would you be ok with the "risk" players (Playing in pvp areas) having advantages over people playing it safe (Example: Faster leveling/better chance to get rare mats? Or would you only play if it didn't add any benefit.
Comments
Yup of course that system wouldn't just work in any game, but if a game was designed around it, would you be ok with that?
Although out of curiosity, what DOES make it work in eve? In your opinion.
Nope.
If EvE was a PvE game, I don't believe WoW would've been as successful.
All that complex crafting gone to waste by the very population that doesn't appreciate it, and even detests the very thing that makes their PvP possible.
I look at games like EvE with PvP, and think this: he that kills the golden egg, shouldn't benefit from the eggs.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I want to be in control of the choice to PVP or not. So I prefer systems that allow that playstyle. I think that EVE manages that reasonably well, except for their PVE being fairly dull. Still, they seem to have an ok iteration of that style. I am actually looking forward to WoD, as I think they'll do an interesting job of handling it, and the PVP seems to fit the setting pretty well.
I personally don't care if folks get some advantages from going into the PVP zones. Risk-Reward and all that.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Well, the looting and item destruction is intimately tied in with the whole FFA PvP bit in EVE. Shit wouldn't matter if shit didn't actually matter. Like you suggested in your OP, CCP set it up so the areas with no rules as far as pvp goes are worth more in terms of income than the "safer" places, but that line has kind of been blurred with incursions and the truesec system devaluing much of null. Still though, there are benefits to a player leaving the "safe" areas. The biggest thing is that you have shit worth fighting for beyond the ship you're flying at the moment, you can find yourself fighting for your home or to evict someone from theirs. Things were fairly stable for a good stretch in recent years but then Test, one of the larger alliances in the game, lost their space to goons et al. when they couldn't be assed to actually bring numbers to the fleets of their allies. I ramble but things got exciting again when people woke up from their naps.
In addition to other things working for the pvp the pvp works for other things. All the ship and item destruction that happens makes the economy possible for both crafters and market bots, and a few market traders as well. It's not perfect but it's all linked to form a functioning whole at least.
Trying to shoehorn it into another game would be tough, raiders in a gear-treadmill game wouldn't appreciate it so much if half their drops got blown up when they wiped or got ganked, but if you're going to transplant anything then having a reason to fight for something would add a lot of content to any game. The problem there lies with coming up with a mechanism other than full loot/destruction to keep attackers from just respawning their way to victory.
Thanks for your feedback, everyone! Interesting to hear what everyone thinks
The choosing is exactly what im getting at with this system. If you don't want to pvp, you don't have to enter the pvp zones, however players that DO will get some extra bonuses for the risk.
That's really not an appropriate or desirable behavior to reward players for, IMO. If players who PvP get inherent benefit in terms of loot they steal from their victims, shouldn't you be rewarding the players who refrain from PvPing for making the non-greedy, non-socially toxic choice?
I'm fine with rewarding people who want to PvP in a socially appropriate place, meaning where it doesn't harm anyone who doesn't want to PvP. You want to have a PvP arena where the winner of every match gets gold or loot from the game as a prize, that's great. You want to have consensual-only PvP out in the world that players have to opt into, that's also fine. But I won't play a game where it's possible for someone to kill me an rob my body just because I had the audacity to think that as a non-PvP player I had the right to go try to gather some rare crafting mats. *eyeroll*
There are a few things you should understand though about how it actually works in EVE.
The first is there is no safe space. Anyone can be attacked anywhere so long as they're undocked. It's just that in high security space the attackers will lose their ships. Basically it boils down to math, I have to figure out the likely value in isk of what you will drop, then figure out how much damage you'll need to pop if you've got the common fit for your ship and then just bring enough guys in enough ships to do that damage before help for you shows up in the form of the space police. If the value of isk you'll drop is more than the cost of ships required to kill you, the trigger will get pulled on the gank gun. If the ganker is competent, anyone can be killed anywhere in anything.
The second thing is that PvP is pretty much consensual in the rest of EVE. There are enough systems in the game that if you understand and use them you can be as safe in nullsec as you are in highsec. Between bookmarks, your directional scanner, local channel showing everyone in system, intel channels keeping you informed of what's up and your map showing fairly timely statistics of ship/pod destruction you shouldn't get caught ass-out in non consensual pvp. Also scouts. Wormholes get a little more exciting with a lack of local channel showing everyone in the system but scouts on holes do the same job. With all that the game becomes a matter of convincing the other guy they should take the fight or just catching out people who don't use the tools available to them.
These things too play a part in making EVE work. If i'm going to play a game where I'm putting shit on the line by venturing into the part of the map that says "Here there be Dragons," I'm going to damn well want some options where I can play smart and reduce risk somewhat. I don't need to eliminate risk altogether, but I need some systems that would work for me to let me yoink something in your backyard and then moonwalk victoriously back home because I had my shit together.
Thank you for your feedback! I can see where you are coming from, but I think you took what I said wrong.
The rare mat was just a random example off the top of my head and personally I would agree that having it only available to pvpers would be very annoying.
What I was getting at by advantage was more things like: In the safe zone I can get 10 exp every minute, whereas in the pvp zone I can get 11. Or in the safe zone I can find 20 of x mat every 5 minutes, but in the pvp zone I can find 22.
By having items ONLY available to pvpers would ruin the entire idea around it. It would force PVE only players to enter if they wanted the item. Everything possible in a pvp zone would be possible in a safe zone, only in pvp it would be slightly easier/faster/better.
That was directed at sun, sorry I hit the wrong button, reply instead of quote :P
Seems like you want more of a social engineering experiment than an RPG. Does it not make sense to you that if there are valuable resources that that is what people are going to fight over and that will make those areas dangerous? It has nothing to do with rewarding the *player* for doing something, it is rewarding the *character* for taking a risk. There's a huge difference.
Same reason I believe scamming within the game should be totally allowed and even encouraged. If you're a scammer or a d-bag pirate who takes my resources by force it's not something you the player are doing to me, it's something your character is doing to my character.
Thanks for your feedback! I have only played eve for a very short amount of time (The whole space/ship theme isnt my kind of game) and am only going off what I have researched and heard people say about it. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. I have to agree with what you said concerning, as you put it, having your shit together. Players should be able to plan for the circumstances that they are going in to. Since players would knowingly be entering a dangerous zone they would be able to "plan" for it. Watch the maps, have defences or an escape plan set up, things like that.
As a working example of someone that normally plays PvE games;
I'm currently subbed to EVE (again) and enjoying it a lot. I would never even consider playing something like Mortal Online of Darkfall Online or any of the other FFA PvP Full Loot games.
The standard arguments that these games offer a "real world" experience because you can attack anyone at any time are pure BS. This argument completely ignores things like Law Enforcement and Judicial Systems.
EVE offers those systems in High Sec. It doesn't stop the determined ganker and if you choose to hang a "kill me" sign on your neck you will likely find someone willing to oblige but for the most part it's safe enough.
If you're feeling brave enough to venture out into the less safe areas there are rewards for doing so. I've spent plenty of time in 0.0 over my EVE career but it doesn't feel like those other FFA games, because it's a choice you've made to put yourself out there.
A lot of these FFA sandboxes could learn a lesson from CCP and get themselves much better numbers if they'd just take the time to develop some proper criminal systems.
It's the whole Risk vs Reward thing. Unfortunately most FFA sandboxes offer too high a risk for virtually no reward and that's why I generally can't be arsed with them.
Then again I'm of the opinion that MMO's in general are probably the worst possible genre to include PvP in. You have class imbalances, level imbalances, faction/population imbalances and it's just not suitable for a level playing field. If I feel the urge to PvP I generally fire up some FPS title, because it's a much better genre for PvP.
Thanks for your replies, all of you. Yes eve already has a system like this so its nothing new, but it would give people more options for this type of game.
And yeah exactly, just because you don't kill players doesn't mean you wouldn't get any reward from going to pvp. Going and getting what you want, and getting away would be a win in my book as well.
Finally, thanks for your input! You pretty much described the type of system I am trying to create! As for the pvp sentiment itself, I enjoy pvp in mmo's much more than FPS because of the diversity, but that's all personal opinion anyways
EvE shoots itself in the foot too often in lowsec.
Removed gravametric sites that required probe scanning, removing the most viable mining method lowsec. Now days a wolf only needs his directional scanner to go to those same mining sites.
Exploration sites are way more profitable in 0.0, and the removal of combat from them meant that the lightest and smallest ships that grant bonuses to hacking+archeology had no reason to be in lowsec. Since they're small+cheap+very very manueverable(real purpose of the ship being a 0.0 scout+hound).
The entire align time+warp timer design discourages prey from using larger ships(IE: more lootable) in lowsec due to the entire "insane choke point" design of stargates. Further more in low sec it's very very hard to die if you're actually attentive and know your environment. Likewise that same design requires too high of an attention span, for the reward of near sure safety(that is only needed once or twice an hour), and with economic rewards that just aren't worth it.
Blatently there isn't enough low sec that is prey friendly. Far too many pipes, and short branches. further more the branches are poorly designed(purposefully) with only having one interesting aspect. It's interesting for exploration, mining, missions, or ratting meaning a multipurpose corp that has their own security for mining is forced to bring their forces to a system that is boring for their security and interesting for miners or vice versa.
The map interface does very very little to aid the prey when they're actually a target(IE PvE op, mining op, or similar), it maybe means you need one less scout alt or similar when traveling. However when it comes to the hunter it will nearly instantly tell them where some kind of OP is happening and where.
EvE strongly encourages different builds for PvE and PvP. it's just a small concentration tax when designing a load out in safe areas. In PvP areas it pretty much removes the option of even fighting if you wanted to. There is very little reason for a PvP game to completely remove the option of fighting from someone, it's a mostly stupid design. especially when you can get the same content 4 mins away at only a little bit smaller reward level, probably at a greater one since you aren't stopping your content for safety.
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Null sec is just dumb.
You have timer after timer that does nothing but encourage big numbers to a fight.
Also safer than lowsec. You're just going to have a few extra costs of doing bussiness to participate in OPs. and Of course won't always get to do what you want.
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Wormhole space it literally designed around "lets think of the most nerfed experiance we can, and call it a frontier instead".
They didn't even bother to fix PoS-es so that it's actually viable for corps to be a little less paranoid about the people they work with. Instead they're just making a new type of player structure(years late) and hoping everyone looks the other way.
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edit: of course there's high sec. but then if you're only going to play there there are far better MMOs that offer the same thing if you're mostly doing combat and production stuff. If you're doing trade level stuff still can't really be beat in the "traditional MMO" but there are better browser games for that.
To be honest I've played far harsher games than EvE when it comes to PvPer(Haven and Hearth with perma death, Wurmonline with virtually no safe storage). and the shear silliness when it comes to favoring the wolf over everything else is too annoying in EvE.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Thoughts? Yeah. It has various shortcomings. People try to seem hardcore but everyone's a coward, and hardly anyone engages unless they are absolutely sure they can win. This leads to paranoia and a rather boring metagame. Wait till you experience it yourself.
Sooner or later the bad outweigh the good. Again.
...but don't mind me, I only got pulled back in because of friends...
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Thanks for the feedback guys.
It seems to me the main issue you bring up is lack of reward vs risk, as well as making it hard/rare to engage in a decent fight (Not super bias towards the attacker)
If they reward vs risk system was balanced out, would you consider it a good system, or would you rather pvp just be removed all together?
What?
Null-sec is infinitely better than low-sec. I can't believe anyone would want to live in low-sec. No bubbles, no bombs, no siege.. By all means, use a Slave Set, your pod is safe. Pimp out your ship while you're at it. Be ready to jump to high-sec tho. Can't risk getting into a real fight.
Low-sec is basically easy-mode PvP.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
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Haven and Hearth had a brillent system(now have some new system I haven't looked at yet).
When it came to leveling core stats(strength/dex/whatever) where based on eating crafted items. Other abilities where based on LP that you got from any action and could be invested in any way(same as EvE's time system but you played to earn skill points).
If you performed a crime you left scents. trespassing only told someone that you where there and did nothing, crimes like theft let them track you while logged in, crimes like assault let them track you to where you logged off, crimes like murder(perma death style) let them track you to where you made your home and summon your character for them to kill(of course leaving the scent of murder behind).
This meant that a criminal could still do whatever they wanted but that they could be punished if someone got off their butt and did something. Basically if someone was a criminal for the sake of being a criminal their character would not last very long(IE how it really works in RL). If someone was a criminal because that bastard stole a chicken or insulted someone's honor, the community would rarely get involved(IE: how it works in RL).
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In EvE even the methods to encourage someone to do something(IE bounty system) are laughable. When I got a bounty I used it as a brag rights, hell my own corp would put bounties on each other. EvE doesn't really have a way for a carebear to really get off their butt and do something, and keep it done(switch to PvPer ships and kill them, just to have them come back in less than 10 mins).
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Thanks for all the replies, and I will take a look at DAOC.
Keep the opinions coming
I will pass on any ffa pvp games.