People can say what they want but by design the game will be zerg when it comes to taking major objectives. Sure small groups can take small objectives but if they allow 10 people to take a keep or a gate or anything over a resource sized sight how will people react? Obviously in the middle of the night with the right siege it might be possible wih zero human defense, but even then they have talked about 'down time' capping.
Anyone that wants to see how this will work really doesnt have to look further than GW2, I dont know why people dont get that. Sure during PEAK PEAK hours, and weekends, if everyone can get in, you might play the design as people will think it is going to be all the time. But the other 18 or so hours of the (week)day its going to be people running around looking to do what they can with the amount of people they have. If they cant do anything with several small groups then they will all be 'forced' to join up to do something 'worthwhile'.
Everyone always looks at these things under the perfection microscope. Where there are the exact same amount of people in the map all day everyday. That isnt realistic, and has shown to be unrealistic forever.
There will be a main zerg when there are a lot of people on, these games always degenerate to that. Whether they will be effective or not is another story. But I suspect they will. When there arent a lot of people on and smaller groups are spinning their wheels they will require help. Whether one wants to play the semantics game and call that a zerg is debatable. But if they have restrictions on how many people or siege weapons or how ever they plan on 'protecting' objectives during down time, then it will require a large force If they dont have any restrictions then it makes the whole capturing stuff fairly moot. Because then whom ever can field the most people during the off times has the distinct advantage. Again look no further than GW2 and how the NA servers were openly recruiting Oceanic guilds, and just how much hat effected how well that server did and how badly the server the oceanic guild did after they left.
People have his picture in their head and unfortunately it isnt reality. What people see now is the 'best' case scenario, at least in terms of player numbers all being in there simultaneously. Because its a closed test and everyone is clamoring to get in there, and everyone is online at the same time more or less, and its a WEEKEND test. When the game goes live those weekdays (after people go back to work after taking their vacations just to play the game at release) will become less and less populated, and as one or two sides become dominant, that third side will feel less and less inclined to go in at all.
Thats how these things degenerate, and rather quickly usually. When PvP is the main focus of the game it surely needs a better hook than "its RvRvR". It needs balance, which is yet to be seen even with only 4 mirror classes per realm. It needs to make sure there isnt rampant 'ninja' taking of major objectives including scrolls. But it also needs to maintain a semblance of 'fair' play for people who play at weird hours of the day. And there is more but those are the biggies and what are going to be hard to fulfill.
Originally posted by djazzy large scale pvp is always a zerg, in every single game. This won't be any different
I have to agree with this.
I'm tired of people defining zerg as just killing! In any situation, real life or gaming, when you get a bunch of individuals together to kill each other that is what they do. The term should be stricken from the gaming terms list! Perfect example is GW2 where haters didn't like the game so they stacked the term onto how bad the "zerg" is. Every game I have played this is the norm.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
People can say what they want but by design the game will be zerg when it comes to taking major objectives. Sure small groups can take small objectives but if they allow 10 people to take a keep or a gate or anything over a resource sized sight how will people react? Obviously in the middle of the night with the right siege it might be possible wih zero human defense, but even then they have talked about 'down time' capping.
People will react however they react. Yes it will take more than four people to take a keep, but that's how it should be. If they take it overnight, who cares? Go take it back.
Anyone that wants to see how this will work really doesnt have to look further than GW2,
There are huge differences between GW2 and ESO for 3 faction PVP. I'll just point out two. One is in ESO the map is all one connected thing. In GW2 there are 4 regions that are considered separate from each other in terms of objectives. This separates the playerbase and encourages factions to only go to which one is the 'winning' side. Second point in ESO it's a megaserver where GW2 does server vs. server battle. This affords a great deal more flexibility with ESO than GW2. Although, I don't think the system will be perfect - it will undoubtedly be better than the GW2 setup.
Everyone always looks at these things under the perfection microscope. Where there are the exact same amount of people in the map all day everyday. That isnt realistic, and has shown to be unrealistic forever.
Again Megaserver.
There will be a main zerg when there are a lot of people on,
There will probably be a few.
People have his picture in their head and unfortunately it isnt reality. What people see now is the 'best' case scenario, at least in terms of player numbers all being in there simultaneously. Because its a closed test and everyone is clamoring to get in there, and everyone is online at the same time more or less, and its a WEEKEND test. When the game goes live those weekdays (after people go back to work after taking their vacations just to play the game at release) will become less and less populated,
Again Megaserver.
which is yet to be seen even with only 4 mirror classes per realm.
This isn't how the skill system in ESO works. You're not locked into four mirrored classes like Warhammer Online. Not even close.
Originally posted by djazzy large scale pvp is always a zerg, in every single game. This won't be any different
I have to agree with this.
I'm tired of people defining zerg as just killing! In any situation, real life or gaming, when you get a bunch of individuals together to kill each other that is what they do. The term should be stricken from the gaming terms list! Perfect example is GW2 where haters didn't like the game so they stacked the term onto how bad the "zerg" is. Every game I have played this is the norm.
I see a difference between the term zerg and mindless zerg.
There isn t much I liked about ESO, that said, the biggest reason, DAOC had organized zergs, and GW2 was just a mindless zerg, was class roles and how they played out in RvR. GW2 just simply can t offer that to the extent DAOC did. Who knows whether ESO can.
Magaserver isnt the answer to everything. I am also pretty sure there will be NA server, Euro Server and maybe even a third Asian/Oceanic server. I doubt very highly it will be like EVE where there is one world wide server for anyone and everyone who plays the game.
But there WILL be different campaigns which for all intents and purposes will in fact be just like GW2. So while everyone who chooses a specific campaign will be on the same portion of the mega server, both PvE AND PvP it still allows certain demographic and geographic 'manipulation' to take place. Because you proactively choose your campaign (server) therefore as people get the 'system' down they will figure out which campaign to join and who to 'recruit' to maximize the issues I talked about.
Before people throw the 'megaserver' card around remember it isnt everyone playing on the same server. People will be phased and grouped with people based on a series of things. More than likely the first being the questionnaire on what type of player you are. But once you get to choose a PvP world that all sort of changes, because then youre going to be locked into that campaign (world) for the duration of that fight.
What is really going to be interesting seeing if they have to cap certain campaigns due to inability to get them all on the same server. Or if they just have a campaign list and people join the one they want on a first come first serve basis. Which again will be a logistical nightmare as people reach level cap, start PvPing 'full time' and then when the campaigns reset some guild mates arent online and they get shut out of the campaign their guild is playing on.
Every game that tried to do this had issues. You cant localize a worldwide game with players in 24 time zones. "mega server" or no "mega server". Because there is no way no how they will get 500K people into one map of Cryodil. Just how many phases of Cryodil they will have is still a mystery.
Greatest PvP too date for me was DAoC and I was there from the start. RvR in DAoC started as a zerg fest but tactics came over time. People getting to know each other. Guilds forming and finding ways to beat zergs with the tools we were given took time. Even after all that developed, people would still make zerg teams but with 1/3 the numbers we had tactics too take them out if you were with the right group that knew how too work together.
All games that have PvP in the scale DAoC or ESO does, will have zergs. Its time and the community that makes then invalid.
I hope so... Standing outside a keep defended by an enemy army with a hundred realm mates at my back feels a whole hell of a lot more epic than, "hey let's take this 8-man and cap as many towers behind enemy lines as possible then vanish once there is even a hint of resistance, even though we all know they'll be turned back during the night."
In this case, the experience is far more rewarding than the result. Even if you have small roaming groups, you KNOW that 90% of the time they're going to be ganking solo'ers trying to run towards the action. Oh, yeah... That's much more fulfilling >.>
I hope the community relegates a certain out-of-the-way portion of the map to multi-faction duels like we had in DAoC.
Im wondering about how this 3 faction pvp all fighting in the middle will turn out. I like to pvp but what i dont like is to zerg pvp, I use to love battles with groups over hunting spots and such in open world games, but when i tried GW2 with 3 areas fighting in one it was just a giant zerg fest. and thats not really for me.
Just looking for any info or opinions on how this might work out.
and also i see they have keeps? are these kind of like warhammer keeps that will just be flip flopped over and over? or do you actually own the keep for awhile?
I laugh when I hear people talk like this. There is room for Zerging in all PvP MMO's, if you get a dedicated good size group. It is inevitable. If you don't like it then I am afraid there is no PvP MMO games for you. Maybe try some FPS.
Oh and choose your battles wisely
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Its inevitable to face zerg type gameplay in a PvP game. Its apart of war. Great example, look at the military. We dont send 1 guy over to a country, we send an entire force when going into a war. Its just the nature of it and itll happen in games as well. Its smart if you think about it. Strength in numbers.
The whole PvP system in this game is fundamentally flawed, as I alluded to before.
You cannot have PvE and PvP elements existing on the same map and expect everyone to have the same goals, and when the goals are achieved based on the PvP being 100% of the results it will never work.
Not to mention how the populations will be imbalanced and how some people will not be getting into Cyrodiil because one faction 'quits'.
Cyrodiil has a 2000 person limit. BUT if only 100 Ebonhart guys are in the map then that limits what Aldemari and Daggerfall can put in there. might sound 'great' for 'balance' but tell that to people who want to play, or want access to their guild store.
Trust me PvP is going to have an extreme backlash once the particulars of the system are seen in action.
They will more than likely try to change some of it after launch but we all know how those changes generally turn out.
But will it be a zerg? Of course it will. When you have premade and pre existing bullseyes on a map that require X amount of players to defeat how can it not? Its like one of those math problems we all had when we were younger. If Billy can paint a house in 4 hours alone, and Susie can paint a house in 6 hours alone and tommy can paint a house in 4 hours alone how long with it take them and 300 of their friends to zerg Cryodill? Come on you all remember that one.
Originally posted by Gravarg By zergfest if you mean just masses of people running around killing everyone then I hope not. I think it will be more like DAoC, with organized massive battles over towns, keeps, resources, etc.
"Organized."
*Runs for the hills.*
I don't want some pathetic dweeb micromanaging my gameplay.
I like how some people are saying: No, it won't be a Zerg fest, because organized group beats zerg all the time.
How often do you expect to have organized groups in solo-centric MMORPG like TESO?
TESO is one of those games where I think the pug (everyone not in said group) will meet up to destroy any pre-conceived group. That's why I 1/2 want to play it. To watch the organized groups get over run by pugs.
But then, the fun of the game will be gone soon as the zealousness of the group is done. To each their own I suppose.
I like how some people are saying: No, it won't be a Zerg fest, because organized group beats zerg all the time.
How often do you expect to have organized groups in solo-centric MMORPG like TESO?
TESO is one of those games where I think the pug (everyone not in said group) will meet up to destroy any pre-conceived group. That's why I 1/2 want to play it. To watch the organized groups get over run by pugs.
But then, the fun of the game will be gone soon as the zealousness of the group is done. To each their own I suppose.
Considering this and your previous post above about "dweebs" I have to wonder what organized PVP, if any, you have ever played... you sound very much like a "new age" solo MMO player.
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Im wondering about how this 3 faction pvp all fighting in the middle will turn out. I like to pvp but what i dont like is to zerg pvp, I use to love battles with groups over hunting spots and such in open world games, but when i tried GW2 with 3 areas fighting in one it was just a giant zerg fest. and thats not really for me.
Just looking for any info or opinions on how this might work out.
and also i see they have keeps? are these kind of like warhammer keeps that will just be flip flopped over and over? or do you actually own the keep for awhile?
I laugh when I hear people talk like this. There is room for Zerging in all PvP MMO's, if you get a dedicated good size group. It is inevitable. If you don't like it then I am afraid there is no PvP MMO games for you. Maybe try some FPS.
Oh and choose your battles wisely
Not really maybe some players groups, small instance groups of 5 or so, pvp hunting parties. But nothing like an RVR zerg.. He doesnt have to play an FPS, he can just not play a DAOC clone, so as long as he doesnt play GW2, gravy. Sure some people do enjoy the Zerg, but thats because you can get by without any real skill spamming AOE hotkeys in a Zerg. So its really pvp for the unskilled, you cannot really blame him for wanting to avoid that for some more meaningful pvp.
Im wondering about how this 3 faction pvp all fighting in the middle will turn out. I like to pvp but what i dont like is to zerg pvp, I use to love battles with groups over hunting spots and such in open world games, but when i tried GW2 with 3 areas fighting in one it was just a giant zerg fest. and thats not really for me.
Just looking for any info or opinions on how this might work out.
and also i see they have keeps? are these kind of like warhammer keeps that will just be flip flopped over and over? or do you actually own the keep for awhile?
I laugh when I hear people talk like this. There is room for Zerging in all PvP MMO's, if you get a dedicated good size group. It is inevitable. If you don't like it then I am afraid there is no PvP MMO games for you. Maybe try some FPS.
Oh and choose your battles wisely
Not really maybe some players groups, small instance groups of 5 or so, pvp hunting parties. But nothing like an RVR zerg.. He doesnt have to play an FPS, he can just not play a DAOC clone, so as long as he doesnt play GW2, gravy. Sure some people do enjoy the Zerg, but thats because you can get by without any real skill spamming AOE hotkeys in a Zerg. So its really pvp for the unskilled, you cannot really blame him for wanting to avoid that for some more meaningful pvp.
Are you suggesting that DAoC is pvp for the unskilled?
I mean, it's always going to be about "who's blob is bigger."
If you want epic, back and forth "even" and/or "fair" battles, you need to structure them and restrict how many people each side can bring and give them set objectives and "win" conditions.
This is why Battlegrounds were even made in MMOs in the first place!
The epic, story worthy fights are few and far between in open world PvP, the myth that such epicness is common place is the lie that keeps open world PvP alive, for the 1/10 times you play something amazingly awesome happens.
That 1/10 is enough for some, but not for a lot of people.
Hence, again, the popularity of arena style and/or battleground style PvP.
"Always bring more fighters" is the tried and true open world PvP strategy in MMOs. The real-world examples of having better technology or better skills/tactics aren't as applicable in the MMO space, despite what people may try and convince you to believe.
If you REALLY wanted to make "realistic" warfare, the side with the most $ would have the best equipment/tech and the best training, and/or be able to hire the most soldiers, but that'd be P2W which is bad for MMOs.
And then the dominate side would "win" and wipe the floor with their enemies, and reign supreme as a superpower for the majority of the game's life, unless infighting and such broke up the big superpower and allowed the little foes to band together and slowly nibble them down or wait for them to collapse under their own weight.
But eventually another rich/populated superpower would take over again and it's all just a cycle.
That's what EvE is, for the most part.
Is it fun? For some...
But most people like the fair fight, like the underdog winning.
But even that is dependent on finite resources, which video games don't have because it's all just respawning code.
Are you suggesting that DAoC is pvp for the unskilled?
DAoC was even worse than the usual large scale PvP, because of it's utterly imbalanced crowd control. And as usual, it was zerg vs zerg with very little strategy involved.
Actually the crowd controll was what made it fun.... Because dps and healing where for once not the main ingredients... Crowd controll was the single thing that brought emotions to the game... And offered well trained teams a huge advantage. Yes it was overpowered... But then my healer with all its crowd controll and healing could not kill a lvl 1 rat solo... But in a group, he turned intoo a beacon.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Are you suggesting that DAoC is pvp for the unskilled?
DAoC was even worse than the usual large scale PvP, because of it's utterly imbalanced crowd control. And as usual, it was zerg vs zerg with very little strategy involved.
That doesn't make it worse. You needed teammates to have your back and strategy before you engaged. Something that all PVP should be about.
Sadly too many people want to be Rambo instead and that's what makes PVP suck.
Comments
People can say what they want but by design the game will be zerg when it comes to taking major objectives. Sure small groups can take small objectives but if they allow 10 people to take a keep or a gate or anything over a resource sized sight how will people react? Obviously in the middle of the night with the right siege it might be possible wih zero human defense, but even then they have talked about 'down time' capping.
Anyone that wants to see how this will work really doesnt have to look further than GW2, I dont know why people dont get that. Sure during PEAK PEAK hours, and weekends, if everyone can get in, you might play the design as people will think it is going to be all the time. But the other 18 or so hours of the (week)day its going to be people running around looking to do what they can with the amount of people they have. If they cant do anything with several small groups then they will all be 'forced' to join up to do something 'worthwhile'.
Everyone always looks at these things under the perfection microscope. Where there are the exact same amount of people in the map all day everyday. That isnt realistic, and has shown to be unrealistic forever.
There will be a main zerg when there are a lot of people on, these games always degenerate to that. Whether they will be effective or not is another story. But I suspect they will. When there arent a lot of people on and smaller groups are spinning their wheels they will require help. Whether one wants to play the semantics game and call that a zerg is debatable. But if they have restrictions on how many people or siege weapons or how ever they plan on 'protecting' objectives during down time, then it will require a large force If they dont have any restrictions then it makes the whole capturing stuff fairly moot. Because then whom ever can field the most people during the off times has the distinct advantage. Again look no further than GW2 and how the NA servers were openly recruiting Oceanic guilds, and just how much hat effected how well that server did and how badly the server the oceanic guild did after they left.
People have his picture in their head and unfortunately it isnt reality. What people see now is the 'best' case scenario, at least in terms of player numbers all being in there simultaneously. Because its a closed test and everyone is clamoring to get in there, and everyone is online at the same time more or less, and its a WEEKEND test. When the game goes live those weekdays (after people go back to work after taking their vacations just to play the game at release) will become less and less populated, and as one or two sides become dominant, that third side will feel less and less inclined to go in at all.
Thats how these things degenerate, and rather quickly usually. When PvP is the main focus of the game it surely needs a better hook than "its RvRvR". It needs balance, which is yet to be seen even with only 4 mirror classes per realm. It needs to make sure there isnt rampant 'ninja' taking of major objectives including scrolls. But it also needs to maintain a semblance of 'fair' play for people who play at weird hours of the day. And there is more but those are the biggies and what are going to be hard to fulfill.
The best thing to reduce zerging is friendly fire. I would be shocked if they have friendly fire in this game though.
I'm also hoping that Cyro is quite large. Much larger than GW2 WvW. That would help in the game not feeling like an instanced arena.
I have to agree with this.
I'm tired of people defining zerg as just killing! In any situation, real life or gaming, when you get a bunch of individuals together to kill each other that is what they do. The term should be stricken from the gaming terms list! Perfect example is GW2 where haters didn't like the game so they stacked the term onto how bad the "zerg" is. Every game I have played this is the norm.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I see a difference between the term zerg and mindless zerg.
The campaign system is hard locked to a set number of players.
This means each campaign will only hold a maximum of say 900 players which means they can balance around 300v300v300.
Is this zergy? Sure, I guess some might see it like that.
Magaserver isnt the answer to everything. I am also pretty sure there will be NA server, Euro Server and maybe even a third Asian/Oceanic server. I doubt very highly it will be like EVE where there is one world wide server for anyone and everyone who plays the game.
But there WILL be different campaigns which for all intents and purposes will in fact be just like GW2. So while everyone who chooses a specific campaign will be on the same portion of the mega server, both PvE AND PvP it still allows certain demographic and geographic 'manipulation' to take place. Because you proactively choose your campaign (server) therefore as people get the 'system' down they will figure out which campaign to join and who to 'recruit' to maximize the issues I talked about.
Before people throw the 'megaserver' card around remember it isnt everyone playing on the same server. People will be phased and grouped with people based on a series of things. More than likely the first being the questionnaire on what type of player you are. But once you get to choose a PvP world that all sort of changes, because then youre going to be locked into that campaign (world) for the duration of that fight.
What is really going to be interesting seeing if they have to cap certain campaigns due to inability to get them all on the same server. Or if they just have a campaign list and people join the one they want on a first come first serve basis. Which again will be a logistical nightmare as people reach level cap, start PvPing 'full time' and then when the campaigns reset some guild mates arent online and they get shut out of the campaign their guild is playing on.
Every game that tried to do this had issues. You cant localize a worldwide game with players in 24 time zones. "mega server" or no "mega server". Because there is no way no how they will get 500K people into one map of Cryodil. Just how many phases of Cryodil they will have is still a mystery.
Greatest PvP too date for me was DAoC and I was there from the start. RvR in DAoC started as a zerg fest but tactics came over time. People getting to know each other. Guilds forming and finding ways to beat zergs with the tools we were given took time. Even after all that developed, people would still make zerg teams but with 1/3 the numbers we had tactics too take them out if you were with the right group that knew how too work together.
All games that have PvP in the scale DAoC or ESO does, will have zergs. Its time and the community that makes then invalid.
I hope so... Standing outside a keep defended by an enemy army with a hundred realm mates at my back feels a whole hell of a lot more epic than, "hey let's take this 8-man and cap as many towers behind enemy lines as possible then vanish once there is even a hint of resistance, even though we all know they'll be turned back during the night."
In this case, the experience is far more rewarding than the result. Even if you have small roaming groups, you KNOW that 90% of the time they're going to be ganking solo'ers trying to run towards the action. Oh, yeah... That's much more fulfilling >.>
I hope the community relegates a certain out-of-the-way portion of the map to multi-faction duels like we had in DAoC.
This imho is essential ! (If friendly fire had been in the game WAR-bomber groups wouldn't have been possible)
Does anybody know if Friendly Fire in Cyrodil is in??
(And ... do we have a Darkness Falls equivalent? An important secondary objective might help to disperse large zergs)
From what I read, IIRC, yeah there is friendly fire
PS I didn't play PVP during the stress test so this isn't from personal experience
I laugh when I hear people talk like this. There is room for Zerging in all PvP MMO's, if you get a dedicated good size group. It is inevitable. If you don't like it then I am afraid there is no PvP MMO games for you. Maybe try some FPS.
Oh and choose your battles wisely
The whole PvP system in this game is fundamentally flawed, as I alluded to before.
You cannot have PvE and PvP elements existing on the same map and expect everyone to have the same goals, and when the goals are achieved based on the PvP being 100% of the results it will never work.
Not to mention how the populations will be imbalanced and how some people will not be getting into Cyrodiil because one faction 'quits'.
Cyrodiil has a 2000 person limit. BUT if only 100 Ebonhart guys are in the map then that limits what Aldemari and Daggerfall can put in there. might sound 'great' for 'balance' but tell that to people who want to play, or want access to their guild store.
Trust me PvP is going to have an extreme backlash once the particulars of the system are seen in action.
They will more than likely try to change some of it after launch but we all know how those changes generally turn out.
But will it be a zerg? Of course it will. When you have premade and pre existing bullseyes on a map that require X amount of players to defeat how can it not? Its like one of those math problems we all had when we were younger. If Billy can paint a house in 4 hours alone, and Susie can paint a house in 6 hours alone and tommy can paint a house in 4 hours alone how long with it take them and 300 of their friends to zerg Cryodill? Come on you all remember that one.
I like how some people are saying: No, it won't be a Zerg fest, because organized group beats zerg all the time.
How often do you expect to have organized groups in solo-centric MMORPG like TESO?
"Organized."
*Runs for the hills.*
I don't want some pathetic dweeb micromanaging my gameplay.
Discuss. Reason. Society.
Become a Dragon. Take your world back.
TESO is one of those games where I think the pug (everyone not in said group) will meet up to destroy any pre-conceived group. That's why I 1/2 want to play it. To watch the organized groups get over run by pugs.
But then, the fun of the game will be gone soon as the zealousness of the group is done. To each their own I suppose.
Discuss. Reason. Society.
Become a Dragon. Take your world back.
Considering this and your previous post above about "dweebs" I have to wonder what organized PVP, if any, you have ever played... you sound very much like a "new age" solo MMO player.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Not really maybe some players groups, small instance groups of 5 or so, pvp hunting parties. But nothing like an RVR zerg.. He doesnt have to play an FPS, he can just not play a DAOC clone, so as long as he doesnt play GW2, gravy. Sure some people do enjoy the Zerg, but thats because you can get by without any real skill spamming AOE hotkeys in a Zerg. So its really pvp for the unskilled, you cannot really blame him for wanting to avoid that for some more meaningful pvp.
Are you suggesting that DAoC is pvp for the unskilled?
Isn't it always a zerg fest?
I mean, it's always going to be about "who's blob is bigger."
If you want epic, back and forth "even" and/or "fair" battles, you need to structure them and restrict how many people each side can bring and give them set objectives and "win" conditions.
This is why Battlegrounds were even made in MMOs in the first place!
The epic, story worthy fights are few and far between in open world PvP, the myth that such epicness is common place is the lie that keeps open world PvP alive, for the 1/10 times you play something amazingly awesome happens.
That 1/10 is enough for some, but not for a lot of people.
Hence, again, the popularity of arena style and/or battleground style PvP.
"Always bring more fighters" is the tried and true open world PvP strategy in MMOs. The real-world examples of having better technology or better skills/tactics aren't as applicable in the MMO space, despite what people may try and convince you to believe.
If you REALLY wanted to make "realistic" warfare, the side with the most $ would have the best equipment/tech and the best training, and/or be able to hire the most soldiers, but that'd be P2W which is bad for MMOs.
And then the dominate side would "win" and wipe the floor with their enemies, and reign supreme as a superpower for the majority of the game's life, unless infighting and such broke up the big superpower and allowed the little foes to band together and slowly nibble them down or wait for them to collapse under their own weight.
But eventually another rich/populated superpower would take over again and it's all just a cycle.
That's what EvE is, for the most part.
Is it fun? For some...
But most people like the fair fight, like the underdog winning.
But even that is dependent on finite resources, which video games don't have because it's all just respawning code.
Actually the crowd controll was what made it fun.... Because dps and healing where for once not the main ingredients... Crowd controll was the single thing that brought emotions to the game... And offered well trained teams a huge advantage. Yes it was overpowered... But then my healer with all its crowd controll and healing could not kill a lvl 1 rat solo... But in a group, he turned intoo a beacon.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
That doesn't make it worse. You needed teammates to have your back and strategy before you engaged. Something that all PVP should be about.
Sadly too many people want to be Rambo instead and that's what makes PVP suck.