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Let's Talk RPG
NobleNerd
Member UncommonPosts: 759
In my many years as a gamer I have played my fair share of RPGs. Then I was introduced to this growing world of MMOs back during the days of FFXI, DAoC, EQ, EQ2 and my RPG world began to change. New possibilities were on the horizon where I not only could have a few friends over for a D&D play through, but could have whole Guilds/Linkshells involved in my world of RPG!
Over the years I have had a blast with MMOs and the chances of roleplaying with massive amounts of people, but over the last few years it seems more and more of the RPG element is fading from the MMO worlds and it has been replaced with an element of greed.
Now instead of creating engaging worlds that encourage people to play as their character in a lore rich world, we are offered environments that encourage you to spend real cash in their invasive cash-shops! Developers treat lore, factions and the rest of the world as an opportunity to increase their bottom line instead of engaging worlds that encourage people to stay for months and enjoy their character development.
I am looking forward to a few up and coming titles for the single fact that there are some who have seen this trend and are attempting to get back to the RPG of it all. I believe I am on the verge of even supporting one of them (of which I usually do not do often) on Kickstarter.
So, to get back to the original thought of my post.......
What games of old do you remember for encouraging RPG? Give me a brief story of your most memorable time. Let's talk RPG.......
Comments
Well said.
I'm beginning to think the only answer is for people to create their own worlds like in the D&D days. Developers are most interested in making as much money as possible. I don't believe they care that much about the worlds they create.
I've been pretty lazy about making my own game. It's a lot of work and time to invest, but I'm thinking of getting started. This is probably the best time because there are a lot of tools available to make game creation easier for indie types and small groups of people.
I don't see large corporations changing their ways. In the 90s MMORPGs were a new fad. They were made by Pen and Paper players for Pen and Paper players or computer geeks that spent most of their time on computers.
There are some parts of this I do agree on, however I think you're generalizing the genre. Most MMORPGs (and mind you've I've been around for quite a bit too) that feature these ' cash shops ' are either F2P or only offer cosmetics, which doesn't really affect the gameplay too much in my opinion. Actually, there aren't any F2Ps out there (from the start, not older games that used to be P2P and transitioned to F2P) that I haven't seen without a cash shop, and as unfortunate as it is, those developers I feel are interested just in the money, while delivering very little content, or even content that gives it more of an adventurous feel, but rather new clothes or another plethora of pets that give you 100x inventory space, etc.
That aside, I did enjoy some of the older ones, such as Ultima, or even shadowbane, what a rush! I don't even think I was old enough to abide by the ToS, goodness. It hasn't been mentioned yet, but I'm sure it will be mentioned sooner or later, WoW. Well, Vanilla WoW at least, logging in didn't seem like logging in, it seemed as if you had awakened in another world, part of this epic story , chiseling away at the enigma which is your destiny..
Well, that's how it seemed to me at least. I mean, I didn't even have to join a RP server or anything, everything just clicked. Fast forward to present day, we've had MMORPGs come and go, some died, some ressurected as is the cycle of our genre, and through it all, I have one thing I feel that was missing from them. The ability to actually write the game's history, or at least partake in it.
'What are you talking about, you had quests and storylines to follow, didn't you?'
That's true, however, I want to have a MMO where for example, we have ' The Great battle of X ', and after the great battle, there's craters, etc in the ground, people have died, generals lost, cities burned, all of these tragic things, only until they're respawned. What's the point in that? If we fight a war, I want to take off from where the war left off. If the orcs were wiped out during that great raid of the 7th era, the orcs should be well, wiped unless there was some way to bring them back, but the only way would be to seek out ways of ancient necromancy, instead of the developers having entire control over the story, I'd love for the players to have a hand in it.
I know there's a lot to consider, and I know it's not that easy, but a boy can dream, right?
Oh, also, Everquest Next seems to have some pretty promising concepts..
Can't wait!
The silent voice within one's heart whispers the most profound wisdom.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That is exactly right. Anyone who considers any computer game to be an RPG has never played a real RPG. They are not and never have been a decent replacement for sitting around a table. The biggest hallmark of the RPG is freedom. Freedom to do what you want, when you want to do it. Freedom to go left when the game clearly wants you to go right. Freedom not to go at all if you want. This freedom simply is not possible in a computer-run world. The computer has no flexibility. It can't allow you to do something outside of it's programming. It couldn't back when Final Fantasy started calling itself an RPG, it can't do it now.
These are RPGs in name only, a pathetic and pale shadow of what actual RPGs are.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
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There were never any roleplayers, there were people playing a game while typing in a silly voice. Try again.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
"The one true Scotsman..."
We have to distinguish between RP and RPG. The most flexible, dynamic RP experiences are certainly the ones you describe. The RPG genre of video and computer games has never been about that kind of RP. But they are still RPGs, because relative to other video/computer games, they are far more focused on playing a role, on the player inhabiting a character, than is the norm in the industry.
The technology simply doesn't exist yet to replicate the power and flexibility of a good DM in a PnP game. On the flip side though, if you're honest about it, most dungeon masters aren't actually that good. The plus side of computer RPGs is that they can have a far greater degree of consistency and quality control compared to the PnP experience. Sometimes you have to choose between quality and freedom.
They are a different kind of RPG, just like JRPGs are a different genre from normal computer RPGs. None of them are "pathetic shadows," they are just alternative experiences shaped based on what is possible in their respective mediums. Without the development of true AI, a computer RPG will never be as flexible as PnP. But on the flipside, PnP will never have the visual or auditory appeal possible in a cRPG. It will rarely or never have the depth and polish level on the narrative that is possible in a cRPG. It will pretty much always have jarring visual and auditory dissonance between the players you are seeing around the table, and who the characters they are playing are supposed to be. There are pros and cons in every type of RPG, it isn't a case of one being the "true" RPG and others being false.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
My most memory RPG moments were probably in Everquest. I was a big fan of the Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms books. I often would role play characters I liked. I was a big fan of Tanis Half Elven and Drizzt Do Urden. My role playing didn't often include other people though. It was more in my mind. I didn't use it when talking to others in MMOs. It was more about the experience of coexisting with others in a Forgotten Realms style world.
Boats were an interesting experience. There were a lot of bugs with the boats. When you zoned sometimes you would be dropped off then boat into the water and have to wait for the boat to come back. I think it was 15 minutes to a half hour wait. It was worse if you somehow fell off the boat in between continents. All you had was sense direction to help you locate one of the few islands in a large mass of water. If you died in the ocean it would be difficult to get your corpse back as they were really deep and really dark. It still was fun to see people drop off the boat when zoning lol.
My first experience was starting in Surefall Glade and trying to get through the tunnel to Qeynos hills in the pitch dark. It wasn't an easy task. Hunting around in blackburrow was amazing as well. There were always people bringing trains to the zone. You would have to zone out and zone back in. I brought a number of trains myself when I got adds.
The wood elf/high elf and orc hill/crushbone areas were popular. The newbie zones were usually packed with people trying to kill rats/bats/orc pawns. In crushbone everyone wanted to get the crushbone tunic lol. I remember farming orc belts and turning them in for reputation, a little exp, and a crappy item. There was a zone named lesser faydark I believe where I would spend hours camping the Orc Camps as a Druid. I would use harmony to reduce their agro and pull them one at a time. Sometimes it was difficult to recover before the respawns. I often had to share the camp with other people as it was popular and a source of fine steal weapons that were worth a lot of money.
I hunted in the east/west commlands as well. There was a shadow knight that killed my many times with his fear kiting. There was a hill giant that would sneak up on you and one or two shot you. The snakes in the area could poison you which could mean a long down time or death. Befallen is one of the nastier dungeons. I went in with a group a few times and lost hours worth of exp grinding. I'll admit that was a little frustrating. Sometimes I thought I wouldn't get the corpse back at all. There were all manner of false floors to fall through and necros that would fear kite you through the whole place. There were always a lot of people in the commanlands. I would trade items in the tunnel of ro all the time.
I remember camping the giant hill. I'm not sure the name of the zone anymore, but most people camped it for cash when they got to high levels.
I tried many times to camp for the fungi tunic and did successfully camp for the jboots (had to wait in line for a long time).
Running from qeynos to freeport was a difficult task for a low level player. You could go through the maze and runnyeye or you could go through highpass. Neither were easy to get through as a low level. You had to have a lot of luck. I remember dying there a number of times and having to run back again. It took hours sometimes because the karana's were so large.
The Nexus was pretty memorable when it came out. Most people would go there to get KEI for increased mana regeneration. It was usually packed to the limit.
There is more than that and most of it doesn't sound very role play like, but it was a lot of interaction with other people in the game. It wasn't always fun, but it was pretty memorable.
I guess that depends on how you define role playing. I didn't role play, but I felt like I was unintentionally playing a role in a fantasy world. There were villain's, hero's, and people just existing in the world. I don't think you necessarily need to role play in order to role play. It's more about the interaction between people in the world. If interaction is forced people will take on roles of some sort. I actually think making up a whole back story for characters and trying to play them out can end up ringing a lot more hallow then just jumping in and interacting with people.
When I talk about role play in MUDs I wasn't talking about making up a back story and play them out, more about play according to the role you are supposed to be in the world setting (e.g. In the MUD I played I am a citizen of a city state that loves freedom and chaos, and I would elect player officials in the city state that are hard liners against a city state that preach order and good. I would try to sneak into the church organization and steal their plans to further my guild's interest (which believes in chaos and secrecy etc). You don't get this kind of immersion in playing MMOs, the only ones come close in immersion are pesudo immersions in EVE or realm/server pride in DAOC/GW2 etc.
As for playing a role in a fantasy world with villans and heros etc, again I would rather go play a single player game like skyrim than MMOs, where the immersion is constantly broken by the stupid chats in the world...
I see what you mean. I don't often read the back story for a game I'm playing. Even in the 90s I didn't really do that. I read some books I enjoyed a lot, but reading the back story for games was usually fairly boring. I'd rather jump in and make up my own as I go. I considered that role playing. I guess it wasn't according if you say I didn't role play according to the game lore.
You can't really roleplay in MUDs either because there are rules and expectations on how to "win" the game. There is no freedom. Now granted, I did play completely social text-based games where there was no combat, no levels, no rules and there you could roleplay because you did have the kind of freedom required to do so.
It really makes no sense trying to roleplay in an MMO, any more than it makes sense trying to roleplay Master Chief in Halo.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I guess my expectation of roleplay isn't normal, because I have little issue doing so in an MMORPG.
In such context, roleplay for me is the relationship of puppeteer (player) and puppet (character) bringing life to the character in a virtual world environment as provided by a game. The character has its own personality and ambitions.
One of my characters is Boomar. He's a muscle bound Draenei hunter who is quite vain in regards to his appearance, very sexist in his interaction with others, secretly very self conscious about his man-tools (or lack thereof), very eager to help others (driven by his own inflated self-opinion), and despite all his macho bravado very much a small child as his inner-self.
He's great fun to play with friends and makes for some quite entertaining interaction with their characters. I never roleplay with outsiders since they seldom understand how I play, and often confuse my character's personality with my own.
If this isn't roleplay, I guess I need another name for it.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/comments
So lets put our money where our mouths are and donate to Brad's project eh? Lets put some money behind this and show developers that our audience who still wants real RPGs in this genre still exist!
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
This. MMOs are not about RP for many. It is about combat, and progression. Personally i don't RP.
Good post, OP. Unfortunately the MMO genre has been "invaded" by the achievement crowd, or "content locusts", who play an MMORPG like they would play a facebook game, just to increase some virtual value on their virtual paperdolls.
Ultima Online is and will probably always remain my epitome of a real MMO Role Playing Game. I am proud to say I was an active member of the Europa shard roleplaying community for many years, and never again I expect to find such vibrant and varied community in any MMO. I hope I will, but given the focus of the genre currently, it's highly unlikely to ever happen. It's not about playing a role and living in a virtual world anymore. It's about killing stuff and getting upgrades.
Sad.
Yes .. but sad or not is just a matter of perspective.
Killing stuff and getting upgrades are fun for me.
Good for you. It just has nothing to do with roleplaying anymore. It's just hack & slash.
I do RP, just not in MMOs. That's not what they're built for. They never have been, they never will be and as far as I'm concerned, you can't really do much actual roleplaying in an MMO. You can play make-believe, you can type in odd ways, you can act a certain way, but you cannot actually roleplay a character, they're still avatars designed for playing a specific game a specific way.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I really disagree with this, I'll agree that they're never properly built for roleplay, but It's entirely possible and great fun to do.
The great thing about roleplay is that It's only limited by your imagination, and if you feel roleplay is not possible within a MMO, you're simply limiting yourself.
I've had great fun roleplaying in MMO's just I've had fun doing so in a P&P game of D&D, and while having a dungeon master enhances the experience, I'll participate in online/mmo roleplay for years to come, even if the product i utilize wasn't meant for it.
The communities exist, they're living proof.
I don't if I would call PnP the only "true" RPG's, but that's where I started and I will say that I never have (and never will) consider a free form open world part of an RPG. Back in my D&D days, it was about campaigns and while we were encouraged to be free and interact with things, there was never a sense of "oh, well I'll just ditch my party because I'm just going to stay behind and open up an ale housed because this is open world!"
It was always about me and my mates, fighting our way through an arduous journey.
OP is right, computer games that came after PnP do not reinforce RP, and squeeze out imagination and freedom of choice which are the most important mechanics of PnP. Computer games supply the framework, and since there is no framework for the activity being an RP Game (you don't have to do so, and most people wont) the result is that whatever the game has to offer in its most concrete (on the screen) form is what is important.
No one cares what the King in the next land has done, or what happened to the farmers of the northern county, etc. All that matters is the stat grind and item acquisition.
When I ran PnP I acted as a countering force against min maxing either by veto and discouragement, or by simply allowing them to have that power and then using the same level of force in opposition. In order for that to work in MMORPGs that would need to be the culture from day one in production, but they cant do that because they are dealing with customers, not voluntary players.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011