"WoW should've reached 20mil subscribers by now. If they followed the WotLK formula we would've been there 2 expansions ago."
Nah. I used to think like you and I still think LFR was a mistake. But what you have to remember is that WoW's growth is related to it expanding into new markets - and not drawing a bigger market share in the States and Europe.
Nope.
WoW should be at 20mil in MoP. Just some serious bungles destroyed that chance.
Remember, John Romero? Well, Ghostcrawler had his John Romero moment, when he explained to people who pay Blizzard their paychecks, that they have to "l2p".
That is not a sound way to increase market share, by telling those seeking entertainment THEY have to be their own entertainmnt!!!
See the results?
That's how to lose not only subs, loyalty in a product.
Well, I do hope Blizzard is learning that success isn't taking advantage of their gravy train, or being so arrogant the train will be there forever when their employees troll their employers.
Most people pre-WotLK didn't raid. It wasn't until WotLK was easy to raid (devs wanted players to see the LK ending story) with the 30% nerf that players went to ICC like junkies. It was the best time not only in raiding in WoW, how many raided NORMAL 25m raids.
It showed that Blizzard knew the winning formula, but to this very day stubbornly tries to stick to EQ concepts, and thus in 2 expansions killed not only raiding itself (bye bye 25mans -- shared raid lockouts were b-a-d), the population too. As end-game IS funneled toward raids, even though most would prefer to NOT raid (they'd dungeon run or farm battlegrounds). The devs want to concentrate on building raids, but on average 20% only raid Normal/Heroics. MoP there's no dungeons past the 5.0.1-5.1, we have scenerios, yet nothing for the 80% to gear up upon via activities players PREFER to do.
It was all nerfed to justify development on LFR, a LFR that was suppose to be FLEX. To get more folks to raid itself. -_-
When that Blizzard dev insulted the 80% of their player base by calling the gear they earned "welfare", it's how things began to decline. Just like Ghostcrawler's "l2p" blog post created the sharpest sub drop in WoW's history -- THE VERY NEXT DAY. Devs have no business insulting players play styles all because they enjoyed the AWFUL raid environments.
80% like dungeons and battlegrounds. Make 80% for dungeons and battlegrounds -- and sew the lips of catty devs. Arrogance is not how to run a business, access and meaningful activity tailored to that 80% IS.
WoW should've reached 20mil subscribers by now. If they followed the WotLK formula we would've been there 2 expansions ago.
Wotlk is not defined by ICC, you are focusing on a tree while being lost in the woods.
Not that i would disagree much overall, but the process started earlier (healing change during bc comes to mind, vanilla raiders could tell you stories about bc ), wotlk was another brick in the wall of the devs obsession on finding the most costeffective system to hook the greatest possible amount of people on, in this GC was probably just more bold than the previous people in charge.
For the first time even non-raiders felt the futility of tiers and content updates.
I kinda feel bad for finding the "l2p" part amusing, cause there were huge discussions AT THE BEGINNING of wotlk, where it was inconcievable to bc players that raids could get any easier, thus they were expecting a monstrous backlash from the new raid heroes once the raids or any content gets harder as the only direction left. Well, you could say that they were surprised at first
If the wotlk system would stay in place the best that would be achieved would be those 11.5m subs the game was stuck during the whole expansion. But i guess these days it would be seen as a positive thing, eh?
Flame on!
EDIT: almost forgot the mandatory paladin jab: How's it bubblin' these days?
To be truly successful for a persistent world there has to be some themepark activity to offer people some purpose. Dailies are usually how it's done. It offers some structure in an otherwise directionless game.
So yes, 80 sandbox / 20 themepark is a good ratio. Plenty of creativity, with a nudge to give purpose to even login for the day.
I doubt that will be successful in today's world. I would say to be truly successful, don't make new "traditional" MMORPGs. Make MOBA, or online ARPG, or some shooter with some MMO elements are all better choices.
To be truly successful for a persistent world there has to be some themepark activity to offer people some purpose. Dailies are usually how it's done. It offers some structure in an otherwise directionless game.
So yes, 80 sandbox / 20 themepark is a good ratio. Plenty of creativity, with a nudge to give purpose to even login for the day.
I doubt that will be successful in today's world. I would say to be truly successful, don't make new "traditional" MMORPGs. Make MOBA, or online ARPG, or some shooter with some MMO elements are all better choices.
How would that be "successful", considering us old time gamers are still alive and playing more "traditional" games.
Are cards gone?
Is checkers gone?
Is Monopoly gone?
Nope. They're successful because people like to play those games, just like gamers will enjoy more "traditional" MMORPGs. Dad can show his son the beauty of them, as well.
To be truly successful for a persistent world there has to be some themepark activity to offer people some purpose. Dailies are usually how it's done. It offers some structure in an otherwise directionless game.
So yes, 80 sandbox / 20 themepark is a good ratio. Plenty of creativity, with a nudge to give purpose to even login for the day.
I doubt that will be successful in today's world. I would say to be truly successful, don't make new "traditional" MMORPGs. Make MOBA, or online ARPG, or some shooter with some MMO elements are all better choices.
How would that be "successful", considering us old time gamers are still alive and playing more "traditional" games.
Are cards gone?
Is checkers gone?
Is Monopoly gone?
Nope. They're successful because people like to play those games, just like gamers will enjoy more "traditional" MMORPGs. Dad can show his son the beauty of them, as well.
Does cards cost millions of dollars to implement? Does checkers? Does Monopoly? The only reason there new versions popping up every 3 days is because all it takes to a card game is a nerd with his computer for a week.
Look at Blizz. They essentially scraped titan, the "true" MMO, and spend their money doing a card game, a MOBA. I would say that given their sales record, they know the game industry better than you and me.
To be truly successful for a persistent world there has to be some themepark activity to offer people some purpose. Dailies are usually how it's done. It offers some structure in an otherwise directionless game.
So yes, 80 sandbox / 20 themepark is a good ratio. Plenty of creativity, with a nudge to give purpose to even login for the day.
I doubt that will be successful in today's world. I would say to be truly successful, don't make new "traditional" MMORPGs. Make MOBA, or online ARPG, or some shooter with some MMO elements are all better choices.
How would that be "successful", considering us old time gamers are still alive and playing more "traditional" games.
Are cards gone?
Is checkers gone?
Is Monopoly gone?
Nope. They're successful because people like to play those games, just like gamers will enjoy more "traditional" MMORPGs. Dad can show his son the beauty of them, as well.
Does cards cost millions of dollars to implement? Does checkers? Does Monopoly? The only reason there new versions popping up every 3 days is because all it takes to a card game is a nerd with his computer for a week.
Look at Blizz. They essentially scraped titan, the "true" MMO, and spend their money doing a card game, a MOBA. I would say that given their sales record, they know the game industry better than you and me.
Well, Nari, now you see the intrinsic problem with video games. And why it's an finite resource that won't survive long-term. Because the cost will make it eventually too cost prohibitive to produce.
Occam's Razor applies to economics, too.
Can't eat through games for eternity, Nari. There's a limit.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 WoW is the most stable, content-rich themepark MMO on the market and it will remain that way for a long time.
One of the many big issues WOW is facing is the nonexistance of competition amongst players and guilds.
Want to boost your guild progression? Add more days/hours in the week raiding...
Want to boost your PvP rating to Glad? Oh...wait, you can't cuz you need to be the right class with the right comp and find the right players and avoid facing certian teams due to the rock/paper/scissor system in place.
Just ask what players are doing now since they released 5.2 content in September? See the responses...
P.S: Star Craft and Half Life 1 with Counter Strike were the last non MMORPG games I played long term. So that being said I have not played any MOBA, RTS, FPS, or a card game since I was fortunate enough to truly experience epic MMORPG's and what they can do.
I learned not to wait until the next MMORPG and just focus on picking the best of what's available that I can see myself enjoy in the long run.
There is a complete world of board games out there that give an incredible personal interaction with meaty mechanics and gameplay, instead of a role a dice to move and you need move that determined number of spaces.
Play stuff like Descent 2.0, Level 7 Omega protocol (not the horrible level 7 escape), Pandemic, Defenders of the Realm, Cosmic Encounter, Mage Knight Board Game, Ghost Stories, etc,
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Doesn't mean we won't get great games in the category though. Just most likely not with 50million+ budgets.
That is totally fine with me. I don't like oldschool MMORPGs anyway.
In fact, i thought people here are for innovation, not going back to tried and old ideas. I, for one, would like to try new games like Destiny, then any rehashed of failed ideas.
Well, Nari, now you see the intrinsic problem with video games. And why it's an finite resource that won't survive long-term. Because the cost will make it eventually too cost prohibitive to produce.
Yeh .. so? I don't need to play any video games long term. It is not like i am running out of entertainment if all MMOs die tomorrow.
Well OP it is a huge opinionated question because what i or you consider a REWARD to yoru character can be totally different.
I can without question tell you that FFXI has the MOST varied content of any game.EQ2 might have the most quests but that is ONE type of content.
As for satisfaction again that can be varied opinions,some feel a tough accomplishment is satisfaction,some might feel a hand out is satisfaction or a sense of accomplishment.
I know a very large portion of FFXI's content is very hard,so you SHOULD feel a sense of accomplishment.Weather that is overdone or considered a grind is not the issue,it is still very tough and gives you that satisfaction when completed.Aside from FFXI ,i never got that big feeling of accomplishment,most games feel very generic in that you have the right level and gear you are auto win,to me that is no accomplishment but more so expected.
In FFXI for example,you could study/watch videos for days of a fight,go get the best gear,perfect level and still lose very quickly.What makes it even more crazy is that a FULL 6 man group could lose to a fight another player might solo and all could have the same gear and same level.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 WoW is the most stable, content-rich themepark MMO on the market and it will remain that way for a long time.
One of the many big issues WOW is facing is the nonexistance of competition amongst players and guilds.
Want to boost your guild progression? Add more days/hours in the week raiding...
Want to boost your PvP rating to Glad? Oh...wait, you can't cuz you need to be the right class with the right comp and find the right players and avoid facing certian teams due to the rock/paper/scissor system in place.
Just ask what players are doing now since they released 5.2 content in September? See the responses...
P.S: Star Craft and Half Life 1 with Counter Strike were the last non MMORPG games I played long term. So that being said I have not played any MOBA, RTS, FPS, or a card game since I was fortunate enough to truly experience epic MMORPG's and what they can do.
I learned not to wait until the next MMORPG and just focus on picking the best of what's available that I can see myself enjoy in the long run.
What are you blathering about lol? There's plenty of competition among players and guilds. That's why there's progression races every tier. The smaller guilds get in on the competitive spirit even if they're months behind server first (on ED anyhow.) Yes, if you play more, you'll probably progress faster, but that goes for pretty much every video game that has ever existed.
You can get to Glad as pretty much anything if you and your partners are actually good. And why do you need to get Glad in the first place? Is it the only title that matters? Do titles matter at all? I really don't think so. Every single class in the game has at least one Glad viable spec, so there's really no excuse as to why you can't compete with players/guilds. Hell, there's world PVP pretty much nightly on ED, and there's always a competitive spirit.
I'm guessing players did 5.3 and 5.4 since 5.2 came out. People are probably going to continue to do SoO or participate in the new PVP season coming up. Or maybe if they're burned out on SoO and don't feel like competing in the new season they'll take a break. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
Your OP was asking for a themepark that offers the most amount of content and is the most stable. My answer is still WoW.
You can get to Glad as pretty much anything if you and your partners are actually good. And why do you need to get Glad in the first place? Is it the only title that matters? Do titles matter at all? I really don't think so.
Like when? This is WoW, any achieve matters. o.O
Did you see how many Glads were on Emberstorm before December 17? A whole battlegroup essentially on the bottom (think only Whirlwind was worse) because the difficulty in finding groups in the first place.
I tried it out with oQueue, and trying to get even 1800 rating wasn't so much about skill, as trying to find groups that weren't looking to be CARRIED. Reach 1700, and it becomes not so much what you know, than who you know to transcend higher. It's like EQII with raid guilds controlling access to raids.
Furthermore, the guild system destroyed the 25mans, because in WoW 10mans were for guilds and friends, and 25mans were for pickups on anything but the largest servers. Raid locks didn't help, too.
WoW has the content, yes. But WoW is not without it's own problems.
Comments
Nope.
WoW should be at 20mil in MoP. Just some serious bungles destroyed that chance.
Remember, John Romero? Well, Ghostcrawler had his John Romero moment, when he explained to people who pay Blizzard their paychecks, that they have to "l2p".
That is not a sound way to increase market share, by telling those seeking entertainment THEY have to be their own entertainmnt!!!
See the results?
That's how to lose not only subs, loyalty in a product.
Well, I do hope Blizzard is learning that success isn't taking advantage of their gravy train, or being so arrogant the train will be there forever when their employees troll their employers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4LTmWo8JJA&list=PLcGIuI4WAGLqQj3lvNjbwiWUAp1jFqxvk
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Wotlk is not defined by ICC, you are focusing on a tree while being lost in the woods.
Not that i would disagree much overall, but the process started earlier (healing change during bc comes to mind, vanilla raiders could tell you stories about bc
), wotlk was another brick in the wall of the devs obsession on finding the most costeffective system to hook the greatest possible amount of people on, in this GC was probably just more bold than the previous people in charge.
For the first time even non-raiders felt the futility of tiers and content updates.
I kinda feel bad for finding the "l2p" part amusing, cause there were huge discussions AT THE BEGINNING of wotlk, where it was inconcievable to bc players that raids could get any easier, thus they were expecting a monstrous backlash from the new raid heroes once the raids or any content gets harder as the only direction left. Well, you could say that they were surprised at first
If the wotlk system would stay in place the best that would be achieved would be those 11.5m subs the game was stuck during the whole expansion. But i guess these days it would be seen as a positive thing, eh?
Flame on!
EDIT: almost forgot the mandatory paladin jab: How's it bubblin' these days?
I doubt that will be successful in today's world. I would say to be truly successful, don't make new "traditional" MMORPGs. Make MOBA, or online ARPG, or some shooter with some MMO elements are all better choices.
How would that be "successful", considering us old time gamers are still alive and playing more "traditional" games.
Are cards gone?
Is checkers gone?
Is Monopoly gone?
Nope. They're successful because people like to play those games, just like gamers will enjoy more "traditional" MMORPGs. Dad can show his son the beauty of them, as well.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Does cards cost millions of dollars to implement? Does checkers? Does Monopoly? The only reason there new versions popping up every 3 days is because all it takes to a card game is a nerd with his computer for a week.
Look at Blizz. They essentially scraped titan, the "true" MMO, and spend their money doing a card game, a MOBA. I would say that given their sales record, they know the game industry better than you and me.
Oldschool MMORPGs are a niche now.
Doesn't mean we won't get great games in the category though. Just most likely not with 50million+ budgets.
Well, Nari, now you see the intrinsic problem with video games. And why it's an finite resource that won't survive long-term. Because the cost will make it eventually too cost prohibitive to produce.
Occam's Razor applies to economics, too.
Can't eat through games for eternity, Nari. There's a limit.
Conservation is the key.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
One of the many big issues WOW is facing is the nonexistance of competition amongst players and guilds.
Want to boost your guild progression? Add more days/hours in the week raiding...
Want to boost your PvP rating to Glad? Oh...wait, you can't cuz you need to be the right class with the right comp and find the right players and avoid facing certian teams due to the rock/paper/scissor system in place.
Just ask what players are doing now since they released 5.2 content in September? See the responses...
P.S: Star Craft and Half Life 1 with Counter Strike were the last non MMORPG games I played long term. So that being said I have not played any MOBA, RTS, FPS, or a card game since I was fortunate enough to truly experience epic MMORPG's and what they can do.
I learned not to wait until the next MMORPG and just focus on picking the best of what's available that I can see myself enjoy in the long run.
Please don't play Monopoly.
There is a complete world of board games out there that give an incredible personal interaction with meaty mechanics and gameplay, instead of a role a dice to move and you need move that determined number of spaces.
Play stuff like Descent 2.0, Level 7 Omega protocol (not the horrible level 7 escape), Pandemic, Defenders of the Realm, Cosmic Encounter, Mage Knight Board Game, Ghost Stories, etc,
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
That is totally fine with me. I don't like oldschool MMORPGs anyway.
In fact, i thought people here are for innovation, not going back to tried and old ideas. I, for one, would like to try new games like Destiny, then any rehashed of failed ideas.
Yeh .. so? I don't need to play any video games long term. It is not like i am running out of entertainment if all MMOs die tomorrow.
Well OP it is a huge opinionated question because what i or you consider a REWARD to yoru character can be totally different.
I can without question tell you that FFXI has the MOST varied content of any game.EQ2 might have the most quests but that is ONE type of content.
As for satisfaction again that can be varied opinions,some feel a tough accomplishment is satisfaction,some might feel a hand out is satisfaction or a sense of accomplishment.
I know a very large portion of FFXI's content is very hard,so you SHOULD feel a sense of accomplishment.Weather that is overdone or considered a grind is not the issue,it is still very tough and gives you that satisfaction when completed.Aside from FFXI ,i never got that big feeling of accomplishment,most games feel very generic in that you have the right level and gear you are auto win,to me that is no accomplishment but more so expected.
In FFXI for example,you could study/watch videos for days of a fight,go get the best gear,perfect level and still lose very quickly.What makes it even more crazy is that a FULL 6 man group could lose to a fight another player might solo and all could have the same gear and same level.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What are you blathering about lol? There's plenty of competition among players and guilds. That's why there's progression races every tier. The smaller guilds get in on the competitive spirit even if they're months behind server first (on ED anyhow.) Yes, if you play more, you'll probably progress faster, but that goes for pretty much every video game that has ever existed.
You can get to Glad as pretty much anything if you and your partners are actually good. And why do you need to get Glad in the first place? Is it the only title that matters? Do titles matter at all? I really don't think so. Every single class in the game has at least one Glad viable spec, so there's really no excuse as to why you can't compete with players/guilds. Hell, there's world PVP pretty much nightly on ED, and there's always a competitive spirit.
I'm guessing players did 5.3 and 5.4 since 5.2 came out. People are probably going to continue to do SoO or participate in the new PVP season coming up. Or maybe if they're burned out on SoO and don't feel like competing in the new season they'll take a break. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
Your OP was asking for a themepark that offers the most amount of content and is the most stable. My answer is still WoW.
Like when? This is WoW, any achieve matters. o.O
Did you see how many Glads were on Emberstorm before December 17? A whole battlegroup essentially on the bottom (think only Whirlwind was worse) because the difficulty in finding groups in the first place.
I tried it out with oQueue, and trying to get even 1800 rating wasn't so much about skill, as trying to find groups that weren't looking to be CARRIED. Reach 1700, and it becomes not so much what you know, than who you know to transcend higher. It's like EQII with raid guilds controlling access to raids.
Furthermore, the guild system destroyed the 25mans, because in WoW 10mans were for guilds and friends, and 25mans were for pickups on anything but the largest servers. Raid locks didn't help, too.
WoW has the content, yes. But WoW is not without it's own problems.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.