The first MMO I played was SWG, played from launch until the NGE. Prior to that I played mostly rpg's like Zelda, Final Fantasy etc. along with FPS like doom quake etc. I still remember the first time I logged into SWG not really knowing what to expect. I loaded into the world and struck up a random conversation with someone looking for people to help form a guild. Before I knew it we were running around towns and recruiting people. After a few hours we had around 20 people. We set up a meeting in a cantina to organize, decide classes and what role we wanted our guild to play in the world. Fast forward a few weeks later and we are helping our members get xp, money, setting up factories, crafting our own gear and trying to figure out where we were going to place our future city.
It became a second home to me and the only game I played for years. Things like setting up camp and discussing how we would take down our first krayt dragon for a half hour before we actually attempted it was where the fun was. Getting into a disagreement with another guild and fighting it out in the middle cornet was where the fun was. The grinding, quests and bugs were all secondary to the social aspects. Things I could not get out of a single player rpg or fps.
Fast forward to today:
I log into a certain beta, and instead of being greeted by other players trying to sell their wares, guild recruiting or just chit chatting. I'm immediately thrust Into quest grinding and 4 hours later I'm still doing the same thing. No one is really talking to each other other than random people talking on world chat. I'm mindlessly going from quest to quest just grinding along for no reason other than I want to hit the level cap. I see other players doing the same thing but that's pretty much the end of the interaction.
From what I read on these forums the current state of MMO's is grinding a game until your bored and then move onto the next one this usually takes 3 months. Going from WOW to SWTOR to ESO and on and on. Basically the same as playing single player games you blast through the content and move on to the next game.
MMO's have turned into the exact opposite of what got me playing them in the first place.
From what I read on these forums the current state of MMO's is grinding a game until your bored and then move onto the next one this usually takes 3 months. Going from WOW to SWTOR to ESO and on and on. Basically the same as playing single player games you blast through the content and move on to the next game.
MMO's have turned into the exact opposite of what got me playing them in the first place.
Pretty much.
Do you play single player games? If so, just change the label from "MMORPG" to "single player RPG", then you can enjoy them.
If i can enjoy a MMO as a single player game, why should i care about the label?
From what I read on these forums the current state of MMO's is grinding a game until your bored and then move onto the next one this usually takes 3 months. Going from WOW to SWTOR to ESO and on and on. Basically the same as playing single player games you blast through the content and move on to the next game.
MMO's have turned into the exact opposite of what got me playing them in the first place.
Pretty much.
Do you play single player games? If so, just change the label from "MMORPG" to "single player RPG", then you can enjoy them.
If i can enjoy a MMO as a single player game, why should i care about the label?
You really have no clue.
Changing the label doesn't change the experience. People tend to enjoy a wide range of entertainment, so obviously classification is an important factor. This boils down to why libraries don't shelve random books wherever the hell they want.
You're being made a fool by the industry's current marketing manipulation movement, and you're making some bizarre attempt at leading the manipulated cavalry on this site and god knows what others.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
From what I read on these forums the current state of MMO's is grinding a game until your bored and then move onto the next one this usually takes 3 months. Going from WOW to SWTOR to ESO and on and on. Basically the same as playing single player games you blast through the content and move on to the next game.
MMO's have turned into the exact opposite of what got me playing them in the first place.
Pretty much.
Do you play single player games? If so, just change the label from "MMORPG" to "single player RPG", then you can enjoy them.
If i can enjoy a MMO as a single player game, why should i care about the label?
For god sakes freaking Elder Scrolls Online is about to come out!!! Elder.Scrolls.Online!!! And it's just another generic theme park game!!!! It's a travesty on every level, another SWTOR.
Have we become so used to mediocrity that we pretend this is ok buy saying "well...I just pretend I'm playing a single player game, grind through the levels and leave". In what universe is this acceptable? It's sad.
MMO games is the only PC platform that is growing.
Most games got sent to console and while we get big names like Skyrim and Starcraft they as well are on consoles.
Elephant in the room.
Piracy.
Freelancer: Good game. I wonder what sales were like? Everyone stole it.
The only game type that is somewhat immune to piracy on the PC platform is? MMO, account based games. It's true, many games sold as MMO should be single player games. They would make good single player games but because single player PC games are off the grid until companies can figure out how to stop people from stealing their stuff? We get them as MMO games and I have a pretty good idea what one I am getting when I see the game. A piracy protected Single player or a true MMO. I buy accordingly.
I also bought Freelancer. Maybe more people should have. We wouldn't have the fog of war we have now.
You're being made a fool by the industry's current marketing manipulation movement, and you're making some bizarre attempt at leading the manipulated cavalry on this site and god knows what others.
Exaggerate much? These guys spend 100's of million of dollars to give us a good gaming experience. If they could just manipulate people they would just reskin Vanguard and call it a day. Of course 90% of this site would be happy with that - or so they imagine.
Even if these games play fairly close to a mediocre single player - the ability to play them with a real life friend really opens things up.
For example i didn't particularly like GW2. But playing it with my g/f is alot more fun. We can take down champions, we can grab stuff in WvW and so on and so forth. It's just much better experience. These games try their best to make the single player experience as interesting as possible but the reality of MMOs being there for everyone works against them to some extent.
Hate on these modern games if you like - but I guarantee that MOST of them when played with friends are actually pretty fun. The big difference is that most people bring their friends rather then socialize via the game.
Exaggerate much? These guys spend 100's of million of dollars to give us a good gaming experience. If they could just manipulate people they would just reskin World of Warcraft and call it a day.
Fixed that for you. Why would they reskin Vanguard when they can make more money copying WoW?
Even if these games play fairly close to a mediocre single player - the ability to play them with a real life friend really opens things up.
For example i didn't particularly like GW2. But playing it with my g/f is alot more fun. We can take down champions, we can grab stuff in WvW and so on and so forth. It's just much better experience. These games try their best to make the single player experience as interesting as possible but the reality of MMOs being there for everyone works against them to some extent.
Nothing wrong with that but sounds like you would be just as happy with a single player RPG with optional co-op. I'm sure more of those will be coming out. I've already seen some.
... and we have better games today. I get that you don't like what we have today .. but certainly we have more options.
Wow, this is so overly simplistic that it isn't even worth responding.
Suffice to say that a game like SWG had all those features combined -with a higher degree of depth and a better integration among systems - and many, many more than those.
People that suggest that modern MMORPGs are more evolved in any way, shape or form simply don't know what they're talking about. They are just the same ol' skinner's box mechanics behind a layer of presentation and a lot of marketing.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
You can argue that older games had more depth and player created content. However they had a serious gap in story, quests and a slew if other features.
MMOs have changed they are appealing to that 40 year Old with a job and a few hours to play people that want more developer driven content and interesting storylines.
I think there is room for both in this market but that many people have forgotten just how terrible some of the old things were 3 - 5 minute health regen I mean come on....
Companies are going after the largest player base and that is the one that has no time for pure Sandbox games.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 You can argue that older games had more depth and player created content. However they had a serious gap in story, quests and a slew if other features.
MMOs have changed they are appealing to that 40 year Old with a job and a few hours to play people that want more developer driven content and interesting storylines.
I think there is room for both in this market but that many people have forgotten just how terrible some of the old things were 3 - 5 minute health regen I mean come on....
Companies are going after the largest player base and that is the one that has no time for pure Sandbox games.
Sure, because in a game like SWG I could log-in for a hour, do some pvp or some missions. Or perhaps, I could log-in for just 30mins to deploy my harvester and change the decoration of my house. Or maybe I could just log-in for 45mins and play some music in the cantina. More or less the same with UO or AC.
I say this because implying Sandbox is more time intensive is one of those fallacies that the ones that promote or rationalize over-simplistic designs are obsessed in perpetuating.
Funny enough, the games that have been traditionally more time-intensive are those themeparks that are based on skinner's box and treadmill mechanics (with the subsequent power creep). But well, we all know that if you repeat the same fallacy 100s of times it may appear as true to the ignorant and the fool.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
And accomplish what on your toon in SWG overall I played that game at launch and everything was a time sink, run a mission wait 10 minutes for a shuttle run 30 minutes to find the right spot.....
In any game you can just hang out for 45 minutes and do minor tasks for someone with 4 - 5 hours a week progression in a game like SWG is long and not all that entertaining.
I left SWG because if I am gonna spend 45 minutes in a cantina I may as we'll do that with my friends at the bar. That's my opinion you think otherwise great find your game. There are millions more players that think the exact opposite as you do and that's the market most companies are after.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 And accomplish what on your toon in SWG overall I played that game at launch and everything was a time sink, run a mission wait 10 minutes for a shuttle run 30 minutes to find the right spot.....
In any game you can just hang out for 45 minutes and do minor tasks for someone with 4 - 5 hours a week progression in a game like SWG is long and not all that entertaining.
I left SWG because if I am gonna spend 45 minutes in a cantina I may as we'll do that with my friends at the bar. That's my opinion you think otherwise great find your game. There are millions more players that think the exact opposite as you do and that's the market most companies are after.
As much as I love boozing around with my pals, it doesn't provide with an alternative in the context of a Role Playing Game - where the point, precisely, is to have a recreation of a world in the context of a particular lore where the players create their own story and narratives.
But I accept that you don't like RPG and prefer a directed experience, fair enough. And this is the exact reason many of us are saying MMORPGs shouldn't try to cater everyone and should do focus on segments of the public, even the minorities - which usually are going to be there on the long run, not like the majority that usually jumps to the next shiny thing after a couple of months.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
137 million and in the top 10 earning f2p games in the world last year....doesn't sound like you have any idea what you're talking about.
Just to add to that .. they still have 500k subs (as much as Eve) and that is another $90M ... so the game made $227M in 2013. In fact, it made back the total production cost in less than a year ... i would say it is a huge financial success.
It made profit sure, but it's a farcry from success story when you consider the fanbase SW has.
On the topic: you people need count in how much internet has grown since 2004, comparing sub numbers then and now is silly. Also, WoW made MMOs mainstream.
I spent plenty of time in Cantinas and it was more people socializing than role playing unless you were on a RP server.
I also understand that you wan a niche game that's fine he question that I always ask is why would companies invest lots of money in Niche games when they consistently fail or don't turn the profit the companies want . There is no reason for them to make those games.
Personally I think three is a happy medium somewhere in between as there are some great ideas and systems that have been abandoned.
MMORPGs need innovation not a return to the past of more niche games I don't think there is enough money available to develop a AAA quality niche game that will make the money required to justify it being developed and released with the polish we are now accustomed to.
If a publisher did want to invest hundreds of millions in a niche game the upfront box price and sub cost May price it out if the market.
The genre does need a breath of fresh air a like what WoW brought in 10 years ago.
Originally posted by Zaiel12 There is a high demand for a quality MMO that is old school and unforgiving. Attempts at it have been shit though, so that market goes smaller. You do not need to put massive amounts of money, and polish into a game for it to be successful. Gaming as a whole is going towards this indie movement. MMOs will have some glory in the indie market, but that will require a small development core that is truly dedicated to the game, and not the cash it generates (Im looking at you AV). MMOs were never intentionally made to be a huge money generator. It just so happened that WoW became larger then anyone could have imagined, so the bar was set there. I mean despite Call of Duty making billions on the FPS market there is still quality FPS games coming out left and right. Development on an MMO is completely different then and FPS but the point is you don't need to copy one recipe to be a success or even aim so high to be the number one game out there. Developers need to set the par the community within it raises, not the preset standards on the genre based on a ten year old behemoth.
Yes and Darkfall is perfect example of how those "quality old school and unforgiving mmo" fail these days. when people like you decide to ganbang new players as soon as they are out of safe zone and day by day people leave; people like you go on and say it's developers fault for not making a "quality" mmo and "not listening to player base" when in truth they did a wonderful job giving players a vast world to play with and a lot more that the "giant wow" don't even provide but still it failed. why? because people like you who wants old school unforgiving mmo kills it. you are severely minority, it is high time you and people like you stop playing mmo and play fps instead. bye bye.
out of arguments so you resort to personal attacks ?
care to point out another game similar to Darkfall ? or any other game where your griefing complain is valid ? also if you complain that PvP happens in a hardcore PvP game then you picked the wrong game.
basicaly I do agree with the OP. I tried to play a few modern games (DDO, Rift, GW1 ...) and none held much appeal. they are quest driven gear grinds. apart from GW1 and partial Rift, there was nothing interesting in the character development process. each of those games has a little extra on the gear grind, but it;s either minor or not complete. there are quite a lot of people waiting for a game that does a few things correctly while having at least some freedom and world appeal in it.
the most ironic thing is, to an MMORPG veteran (and I don't mean a hardcore player, just somebody used to the games) most of the modern games lack the most fundamental part ... RPG. I am sick of playng a role that was forced on me by the devs (personal story that I did not create, just picked from predefined options does not work).
Originally posted by Fenrir767 You can argue that older games had more depth and player created content. However they had a serious gap in story, quests and a slew if other features. ?????
MMOs have changed they are appealing to that 40 year Old with a job and a few hours to play people that want more developer driven content and interesting storylines.
I think there is room for both in this market but that many people have forgotten just how terrible some of the old things were 3 - 5 minute health regen I mean come on....
Companies are going after the largest player base and that is the one that has no time for pure Sandbox games.
To your point of having a story.. I'm dead set against a MMORPG having linear storylines.. When I play games like Dragon Age, or Diablo 3, I have no issues with them having a story.. Myself and a small group progress thru the story AS the content and reason to play.. However, when I log on to games like original EQ, vanilla WoW, I do not want to be strong armed into following a linear path.. I want the freedom to do what I want to do without being pushed from behind..
As to the comment of "room for both".. I used to think that, but after seeing and playing most of the games recently I don't believe that is true anymore.. It is just too costly to appease and finance two different games operating under the same roof.. Hybrid games as you imply end up not satisfying anyone.. Instead of getting a A+ rated game focused on PvE sandpark, we end up with a game that gives us C+ rated PvE, PvP and Storylines.. As the old saying goes.. You can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time.. BUT you can't please all of the people all of the time.. And that I believe is what devs are trying to do.. C+ games with hype will get people liking it for a short time, but eventually the hype wears off, the honeymoon is over and people will cancel and leave C rated games..
Not sure why you comment about sandbox games.. Your implication is that sandbox isn't casual enough? I find that flawed.. A sandbox IMO just means you have more freedom then a linear progression game like Rift and SWTOR.. There is nothing wrong with logging into a sandbox game, play for 15 minutes and log off.. Every game I have played since 1999 has has issues that I liked and disliked, and could easily be corrected or enhanced IF the devs made changes to my liking..
I do agree with that last sentence which I addressed already in a round about way.. Companies are trying to go for the LARGE player base and to them that is "ALL" gamers, not just a sub-niche group.. Is it possible for Ford or GM to design a vehicle that goes 0-100 in 6 seconds, hauls 1 ton, seating for 7, 45mpg fuel in less then $20,000? NO NO and NO.. It's impossible to target everything on consumer wants.. Each time companies like GM and Ford design a new product they are not trying to build a car that pleases everyone.. You have to make a hard choice on WHO gets your love, and live with it.. Cause if you don't, you won't survive very long
there is alot of good points to both sides of the arguments here, but in the end the only thign i know for sure is this, all my faverite MMOs beside WoW are gone and thats the only reason i stopped playing them all the new ones i just cant seem to enjoy for more then a few months ( and i only stopped playing WoW due to all the griefing if not for the players its a great game)
heck the only MMO like game i keep going back to currently is a neverwinter nights 2 server.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 And old MMORPGs that lack of story left many players feeling like there was nothing to do bored. Not everyone finds creating a personal story fun.
Consumers have voted with their dollars and the more dev driven story model is currently what people are looking for.
I don't think so.. You could take a survey on WoW and I would bet that 70% have NO clue about the lore and stories.. If you removed all of WoW's story stuff, people will still play it because of it's casual mechanics.. BTW.. I'm one of the 70% that is clueless about WoW's stories and lore.. I zerged thru the quest content like a hot knife thru butter.. I had 6 maxed toons all in raid gear when I cancelled.. If it wasn't for friends I would of never of lasted as long as I did.. As for SWTOR and RIFT.. I lasted 3 months of each with a maxed toon.. Taking an Alt back thru the same junk I just did with my main was mind numbing..
I target Sandboxes as not being casual friendly as in my experience they tend to not be. However if there have been some then I stand corrected most sandboxes tend to require more time than I think the average MMO gamer has these days.
I disagree about hybrids not being a valid game format I just think that we have yet to see one designed that can succeed as the elements are developed not pin conjunction. MMORPGs need a new type of design.
Rydeson. You use WoW as an example and cite a non existent survey and generalize from your experience okay.....
SWTOR had 2 million people buy it and okay it for the lore and story unfortunately they were not able to maintain that experience.
WoW has a great many people that played it and still play it because it's Warcraft and blizzard and love the lore and history guess what I am one of those players.
You can possibly say that 70% of power gamers don't give a crap about WoWs lore etc us that true for its massive casual player base that's highly debatable and not provable without facts.
Greatest issue with any discussion on these forums is the complete lack of acceptance of differing opinions all I see from that post is its line that for me so it must be true...
As an indie dev who programmed MMOs in 2004 and in 2014, it is now so much easier to make MMO software today then before.
I suspect we will continue to see dozens of new MMO like games every year.
Specifically:
1. Cloud hosting is very cheap. I can host a single processor Game Server + SQL Database for 80'ish $ a month. When the game comes out, we can scale quickly (adding CPU/Memory/VMs/DB size).
2. Unity 3d. Fantastic client tools and asset store.
137 million and in the top 10 earning f2p games in the world last year....doesn't sound like you have any idea what you're talking about.
Just to add to that .. they still have 500k subs (as much as Eve) and that is another $90M ... so the game made $227M in 2013. In fact, it made back the total production cost in less than a year ... i would say it is a huge financial success.
It made profit sure, but it's a farcry from success story when you consider the fanbase SW has.
On the topic: you people need count in how much internet has grown since 2004, comparing sub numbers then and now is silly. Also, WoW made MMOs mainstream.
Financial success is financial success. You can always claim that it does not get everyone who has ever watched SW to play .. but so what .. it makes lots of money ... MORE than most MMOs .. and certainly all the sandboxes.
Final Fantasy XIV is fairly awful on consoles. Even though the PS4 is equally to a mediocre computer - I don't think its going to be thrilling enough on consoles to be a breath of fresh air. Consoles just suck too much. The controller is just an awful way to play MMOs.
Comments
The first MMO I played was SWG, played from launch until the NGE. Prior to that I played mostly rpg's like Zelda, Final Fantasy etc. along with FPS like doom quake etc. I still remember the first time I logged into SWG not really knowing what to expect. I loaded into the world and struck up a random conversation with someone looking for people to help form a guild. Before I knew it we were running around towns and recruiting people. After a few hours we had around 20 people. We set up a meeting in a cantina to organize, decide classes and what role we wanted our guild to play in the world. Fast forward a few weeks later and we are helping our members get xp, money, setting up factories, crafting our own gear and trying to figure out where we were going to place our future city.
It became a second home to me and the only game I played for years. Things like setting up camp and discussing how we would take down our first krayt dragon for a half hour before we actually attempted it was where the fun was. Getting into a disagreement with another guild and fighting it out in the middle cornet was where the fun was. The grinding, quests and bugs were all secondary to the social aspects. Things I could not get out of a single player rpg or fps.
Fast forward to today:
I log into a certain beta, and instead of being greeted by other players trying to sell their wares, guild recruiting or just chit chatting. I'm immediately thrust Into quest grinding and 4 hours later I'm still doing the same thing. No one is really talking to each other other than random people talking on world chat. I'm mindlessly going from quest to quest just grinding along for no reason other than I want to hit the level cap. I see other players doing the same thing but that's pretty much the end of the interaction.
From what I read on these forums the current state of MMO's is grinding a game until your bored and then move onto the next one this usually takes 3 months. Going from WOW to SWTOR to ESO and on and on. Basically the same as playing single player games you blast through the content and move on to the next game.
MMO's have turned into the exact opposite of what got me playing them in the first place.
Pretty much.
Do you play single player games? If so, just change the label from "MMORPG" to "single player RPG", then you can enjoy them.
If i can enjoy a MMO as a single player game, why should i care about the label?
You really have no clue.
Changing the label doesn't change the experience. People tend to enjoy a wide range of entertainment, so obviously classification is an important factor. This boils down to why libraries don't shelve random books wherever the hell they want.
You're being made a fool by the industry's current marketing manipulation movement, and you're making some bizarre attempt at leading the manipulated cavalry on this site and god knows what others.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
For god sakes freaking Elder Scrolls Online is about to come out!!! Elder.Scrolls.Online!!! And it's just another generic theme park game!!!! It's a travesty on every level, another SWTOR.
Have we become so used to mediocrity that we pretend this is ok buy saying "well...I just pretend I'm playing a single player game, grind through the levels and leave". In what universe is this acceptable? It's sad.
MMO games is the only PC platform that is growing.
Most games got sent to console and while we get big names like Skyrim and Starcraft they as well are on consoles.
Elephant in the room.
Piracy.
Freelancer: Good game. I wonder what sales were like? Everyone stole it.
The only game type that is somewhat immune to piracy on the PC platform is? MMO, account based games. It's true, many games sold as MMO should be single player games. They would make good single player games but because single player PC games are off the grid until companies can figure out how to stop people from stealing their stuff? We get them as MMO games and I have a pretty good idea what one I am getting when I see the game. A piracy protected Single player or a true MMO. I buy accordingly.
I also bought Freelancer. Maybe more people should have. We wouldn't have the fog of war we have now.
Exaggerate much? These guys spend 100's of million of dollars to give us a good gaming experience. If they could just manipulate people they would just reskin Vanguard and call it a day. Of course 90% of this site would be happy with that - or so they imagine.
Even if these games play fairly close to a mediocre single player - the ability to play them with a real life friend really opens things up.
For example i didn't particularly like GW2. But playing it with my g/f is alot more fun. We can take down champions, we can grab stuff in WvW and so on and so forth. It's just much better experience. These games try their best to make the single player experience as interesting as possible but the reality of MMOs being there for everyone works against them to some extent.
Hate on these modern games if you like - but I guarantee that MOST of them when played with friends are actually pretty fun. The big difference is that most people bring their friends rather then socialize via the game.
Fixed that for you. Why would they reskin Vanguard when they can make more money copying WoW?
Nothing wrong with that but sounds like you would be just as happy with a single player RPG with optional co-op. I'm sure more of those will be coming out. I've already seen some.
Wow, this is so overly simplistic that it isn't even worth responding.
Suffice to say that a game like SWG had all those features combined -with a higher degree of depth and a better integration among systems - and many, many more than those.
People that suggest that modern MMORPGs are more evolved in any way, shape or form simply don't know what they're talking about. They are just the same ol' skinner's box mechanics behind a layer of presentation and a lot of marketing.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
MMOs have changed they are appealing to that 40 year Old with a job and a few hours to play people that want more developer driven content and interesting storylines.
I think there is room for both in this market but that many people have forgotten just how terrible some of the old things were 3 - 5 minute health regen I mean come on....
Companies are going after the largest player base and that is the one that has no time for pure Sandbox games.
Sure, because in a game like SWG I could log-in for a hour, do some pvp or some missions. Or perhaps, I could log-in for just 30mins to deploy my harvester and change the decoration of my house. Or maybe I could just log-in for 45mins and play some music in the cantina. More or less the same with UO or AC.
I say this because implying Sandbox is more time intensive is one of those fallacies that the ones that promote or rationalize over-simplistic designs are obsessed in perpetuating.
Funny enough, the games that have been traditionally more time-intensive are those themeparks that are based on skinner's box and treadmill mechanics (with the subsequent power creep). But well, we all know that if you repeat the same fallacy 100s of times it may appear as true to the ignorant and the fool.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
In any game you can just hang out for 45 minutes and do minor tasks for someone with 4 - 5 hours a week progression in a game like SWG is long and not all that entertaining.
I left SWG because if I am gonna spend 45 minutes in a cantina I may as we'll do that with my friends at the bar. That's my opinion you think otherwise great find your game. There are millions more players that think the exact opposite as you do and that's the market most companies are after.
As much as I love boozing around with my pals, it doesn't provide with an alternative in the context of a Role Playing Game - where the point, precisely, is to have a recreation of a world in the context of a particular lore where the players create their own story and narratives.
But I accept that you don't like RPG and prefer a directed experience, fair enough. And this is the exact reason many of us are saying MMORPGs shouldn't try to cater everyone and should do focus on segments of the public, even the minorities - which usually are going to be there on the long run, not like the majority that usually jumps to the next shiny thing after a couple of months.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
It made profit sure, but it's a farcry from success story when you consider the fanbase SW has.
On the topic: you people need count in how much internet has grown since 2004, comparing sub numbers then and now is silly. Also, WoW made MMOs mainstream.
I also understand that you wan a niche game that's fine he question that I always ask is why would companies invest lots of money in Niche games when they consistently fail or don't turn the profit the companies want . There is no reason for them to make those games.
Personally I think three is a happy medium somewhere in between as there are some great ideas and systems that have been abandoned.
MMORPGs need innovation not a return to the past of more niche games I don't think there is enough money available to develop a AAA quality niche game that will make the money required to justify it being developed and released with the polish we are now accustomed to.
If a publisher did want to invest hundreds of millions in a niche game the upfront box price and sub cost May price it out if the market.
The genre does need a breath of fresh air a like what WoW brought in 10 years ago.
out of arguments so you resort to personal attacks ?
care to point out another game similar to Darkfall ? or any other game where your griefing complain is valid ? also if you complain that PvP happens in a hardcore PvP game then you picked the wrong game.
basicaly I do agree with the OP. I tried to play a few modern games (DDO, Rift, GW1 ...) and none held much appeal. they are quest driven gear grinds. apart from GW1 and partial Rift, there was nothing interesting in the character development process. each of those games has a little extra on the gear grind, but it;s either minor or not complete. there are quite a lot of people waiting for a game that does a few things correctly while having at least some freedom and world appeal in it.
the most ironic thing is, to an MMORPG veteran (and I don't mean a hardcore player, just somebody used to the games) most of the modern games lack the most fundamental part ... RPG. I am sick of playng a role that was forced on me by the devs (personal story that I did not create, just picked from predefined options does not work).
Consumers have voted with their dollars and the more dev driven story model is currently what people are looking for.
To your point of having a story.. I'm dead set against a MMORPG having linear storylines.. When I play games like Dragon Age, or Diablo 3, I have no issues with them having a story.. Myself and a small group progress thru the story AS the content and reason to play.. However, when I log on to games like original EQ, vanilla WoW, I do not want to be strong armed into following a linear path.. I want the freedom to do what I want to do without being pushed from behind..
As to the comment of "room for both".. I used to think that, but after seeing and playing most of the games recently I don't believe that is true anymore.. It is just too costly to appease and finance two different games operating under the same roof.. Hybrid games as you imply end up not satisfying anyone.. Instead of getting a A+ rated game focused on PvE sandpark, we end up with a game that gives us C+ rated PvE, PvP and Storylines.. As the old saying goes.. You can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time.. BUT you can't please all of the people all of the time.. And that I believe is what devs are trying to do.. C+ games with hype will get people liking it for a short time, but eventually the hype wears off, the honeymoon is over and people will cancel and leave C rated games..
Not sure why you comment about sandbox games.. Your implication is that sandbox isn't casual enough? I find that flawed.. A sandbox IMO just means you have more freedom then a linear progression game like Rift and SWTOR.. There is nothing wrong with logging into a sandbox game, play for 15 minutes and log off.. Every game I have played since 1999 has has issues that I liked and disliked, and could easily be corrected or enhanced IF the devs made changes to my liking..
I do agree with that last sentence which I addressed already in a round about way.. Companies are trying to go for the LARGE player base and to them that is "ALL" gamers, not just a sub-niche group.. Is it possible for Ford or GM to design a vehicle that goes 0-100 in 6 seconds, hauls 1 ton, seating for 7, 45mpg fuel in less then $20,000? NO NO and NO.. It's impossible to target everything on consumer wants.. Each time companies like GM and Ford design a new product they are not trying to build a car that pleases everyone.. You have to make a hard choice on WHO gets your love, and live with it.. Cause if you don't, you won't survive very long
there is alot of good points to both sides of the arguments here, but in the end the only thign i know for sure is this, all my faverite MMOs beside WoW are gone and thats the only reason i stopped playing them all the new ones i just cant seem to enjoy for more then a few months ( and i only stopped playing WoW due to all the griefing if not for the players its a great game)
heck the only MMO like game i keep going back to currently is a neverwinter nights 2 server.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
I don't think so.. You could take a survey on WoW and I would bet that 70% have NO clue about the lore and stories.. If you removed all of WoW's story stuff, people will still play it because of it's casual mechanics.. BTW.. I'm one of the 70% that is clueless about WoW's stories and lore.. I zerged thru the quest content like a hot knife thru butter.. I had 6 maxed toons all in raid gear when I cancelled.. If it wasn't for friends I would of never of lasted as long as I did.. As for SWTOR and RIFT.. I lasted 3 months of each with a maxed toon.. Taking an Alt back thru the same junk I just did with my main was mind numbing..
I disagree about hybrids not being a valid game format I just think that we have yet to see one designed that can succeed as the elements are developed not pin conjunction. MMORPGs need a new type of design.
SWTOR had 2 million people buy it and okay it for the lore and story unfortunately they were not able to maintain that experience.
WoW has a great many people that played it and still play it because it's Warcraft and blizzard and love the lore and history guess what I am one of those players.
You can possibly say that 70% of power gamers don't give a crap about WoWs lore etc us that true for its massive casual player base that's highly debatable and not provable without facts.
Greatest issue with any discussion on these forums is the complete lack of acceptance of differing opinions all I see from that post is its line that for me so it must be true...
As an indie dev who programmed MMOs in 2004 and in 2014, it is now so much easier to make MMO software today then before.
I suspect we will continue to see dozens of new MMO like games every year.
Specifically:
1. Cloud hosting is very cheap. I can host a single processor Game Server + SQL Database for 80'ish $ a month. When the game comes out, we can scale quickly (adding CPU/Memory/VMs/DB size).
2. Unity 3d. Fantastic client tools and asset store.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
Financial success is financial success. You can always claim that it does not get everyone who has ever watched SW to play .. but so what .. it makes lots of money ... MORE than most MMOs .. and certainly all the sandboxes.
Yeh .. may be Destiny will be that ...