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Hardcore death penalty is vital to this games success
Vhayne
Member UncommonPosts: 632
This has been discussed a lot over the years and I want to discuss it a bit more. I want to emphasize how important it is to have a hardcore death penalty in an mmo such as this.
Talking about the development of Pantheon excites many of us, because it's a throwback to the days of old EQ, and for those of that played, that's a memory that we long to return to. A feeling of excitement, danger, and community.
That's the entire point of a hardcore death penalty (risk of losing your gear, losing experience (although I feel losing your level isn't necessary), and being "naked" trying to get back to your body. These things, people like to pick and choose what they like about it, and then want to throw away the others.
The entire point of all of these things is to promote DANGER! Without danger, we return to a world of WoW, or any other mmo that has been made in the past 10 years. You just do not feel a sense of accomplishment when doing anything in them. Sure you get a nice twinge of a warm feeling when you take down Onyxia for the first time. But was it really dangerous?? Anyone can do it, given the level and enough times to try.
Everquest. It was SCARY just going into Befallen!! Low level dungeons. Want to go solo?? You have balls of steel. If you and your group were of the level to gain experience from the mobs there, made it to the bottom, and camped out some of the named mobs there for a chance at good loot, you felt great! You were doing something special. Something that without those friends of yours, you would not have been able to do alone. Why couldn't you do it alone, or at least try? Because of the danger involved.
You were at risk of losing SO much if you took that chance. But even still, some of us DID risk it. SOLO. And we succeeded! And the feeling from that is what made EQ so special in our hearts.
Yes, dying at the bottom of a dungeon sucked. Because that meant that you and your friends (or you alone) had to seek help in getting back to you body to get all of your stuff back, and gain some exp back with a rez if you were lucky. But it also made you become reliable on others for help. And due to this, it made you BEHAVE in a kind way, for if you did not, and were an ass, you weren't going to get any help due to your reputation as a jerk. (This builds community).
The design of EQ and it's "features" were not planned to effect you this way. I honestly believe it was simply an attempt to get you to spend more time in the game and therefore be forced to continue to fork over the monthly fee to accommodate the necessary time. But these "features" are what were are missing from todays games! This is what builds community, and dedication to a game.
I think I heard Brad say in one of the videos that the death penalty wouldn't require corpse runs. This disappoints me a lot. Because without such danger comes decreased excitement, rewards, and reliance upon others. I hope that this will change, but it won't unless everyone wakes up to what was important in EQ (even though we all cursed it during the day), and gets vocal and lets the Pantheon team know that the game NEEDS this to succeed.
Comments
+1 for corpse runs
If not that, they need to find another way to make death sting equally as much.
Nothing gets your adrenaline pumping like a genuine fear of death.
You have absolutely nailed it. The sense of danger. Real danger. Losing your corpse with all your items deep in a dungeon makes you take cautions that, when you succeed, provides an incredible sense of accomplishment.
Camping mobs in lower guk with a group that is just barely able to tackle the content, barely scraping by every fight... that's the feeling I want again. Risk = reward, but hard content alone with no risk does not equal the same thing. This is key.
You had it right with EQ, Brad. Corpse runs sucked. Everyone hated having to get your corpse back when you were naked. But that's the thing that made EQ so great. Not the corpse runs themselves, but the fear of corpse runs. It made you play better, pay more attention, seek better people to play with, and forced you to learn to play your character to the best of your ability so you could build a positive reputation for yourself in the community. The idea that "if you fail, your group fails", is a very powerful position to be in, and bestows great responsibility to a player when there is something painful to be lost (time, exp, levels, gear), especially when it takes the group you failed to get your corpse and get you back in the game. It makes you think very hard about every action you take, and fosters good group play - which is your self-stated goal with Pantheon.
Since you have clearly stated that you are going after a target audience that desires this kind of game play, you should proceed without compromise and give us not just a challenge, but a distinct fear of failure. Put the proper mechanics in place for us to succeed, and make failure hurt. This, combined with a long journey, will keep players engaged and coming back month after month. As a long time EQ player, this is what keeps me coming back.
Give us a game without compromises, hand-holding, and a real fear for our characters in the game world, and you will build community, and a base of players that will stick with your game for years and years.
For this to work, all pieces of this puzzle have to be built perfectly: Community, proper mechanics, player reputation, fear of failure, pain if you do fail (time, exp, levels, or gear loss), defined rolls, and a real need for those rolls, and last but not least, quality content. For example, if you put a "dungeon finder" in this game as we've seen in WoW and other titles, it will negate the need for a good reputation and hurt community, which in turn lessens the importance of the other pieces of the puzzle. The game then because a task, a chore, a treadmill, a carrot on a stick.
Build it with care, Brad, and don't wimp out: Give us something to fear.
Corpse runs confirmed, today in the reddit AMA!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=usfiAsWR4qU#t=7
Many people will have an epileptic seizure over this news............. I can tell you that.
90% of MMO players never experienced a game with Corpse Run and will avoid this game like the plague.
Which is a pity, because Corpse Run add something special to a MMO, and it's an integral part of building a Social game.
Personally, that's the kind of feature I am looking for in a game.
Long live to Corpse Run!
Dying in MMO should be something you want to avoid at all cost.
That being said, i don't like a system where you're in danger to lose everything you carried in death. Corpse runs, exp loss, item degradation or similar concept is enough and required. No zerging in PvP, please.
And no, hardcore death penalty is not vital to this game's success, as long as there are some consequences when you die. The pros in game design outweights lots of cons, even the not-so-hardcore death penalty, if they so decide.
Ehmm...allright. if you say so.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
That will be their loss then.
I hope they will stick to their guns and deliver the game THEY want to create... not try to please everyone ending up with a watered down version of their vision, that may bring more sale in the first place, but that will quickly be put aside and forgotten like most new titles.
That's my hope for those kind of kickstarter... because most big studios are not taking any risks now, something that the genre really needs... at least imo. I hope we get more niche game like that and CU, so everyone can find it's place.... (yeah, I know... )
I expect a mechanism like in Vanguard.
Which had corpse runs, but you could also admit failure and accept a monetary penalty instead.
Also Vanguard allowed to soulbind gear to yourself, which meant all your stuff would stay on you after death. That made corpse runs a LOT easier, obviously.
I think Lineage 2 is a good example why too harsh death penalties are a bad idea, too.
No death penalty means you dont care about dying at all.
Too harsh penalties mean you never take a risk. Which is a dull kind of gaming indeed.
Again, thats why I want a death penalty like it was in Vanguard. You definitely had a penalty, but it wasnt TOO overly harsh.
"90% of MMO players never experienced a game with Corpse Run and will avoid this game like the plague".
- from a neutral perspective there seems to be a contradiction here regarding game success
I've got no problem with item drops and corpse runs if it is like UO where the gear is easily replaced due to crafting.
If the gear is acquired primarily through drops and there exists gear and gear+5 and gear+10, corpse runs and item drops are unacceptable.
I'd risk a corpse run for a silver sword or something +1 in UO, most of the time, unless I had a few extra in the bank, but I'd rarely risk a corpse run for basic plate or my inventory of Magery mats.
Definitely do a corpse run if I dropped trying to get out of a successful Liche dungeon run and was loaded up with gold!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/747862?ref=dash
Hardcore death penalty, I hope those who wanted something like this but have not pledged yet do so now.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
A partial or full loot system is the way to go for sandbox games.
Look at Runescape, darkfall, mortal online, ultima online and what else?
XP loss is the worse thing ever. You cannot collect your exp once you reach the cap so you end up constantly having to work for it the movement you die. With gear drop, you can either retrieve what you dropped or you can collect/craft a bunch of items to replace what you're currently wearing. Death still matters that way, but it does not force you to grind every single time you die with a loot drop system.
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