ESO by far has a much more refined PvP system in terms of fortresses. I don't think theres much question there as GW2 unfortunately failed to fully realize their system and as such didn't play the sieges up to 'snuff' of what they could be. Still, they have the same general idea behind them.
First, let me start off with something, If you doubt I've played GW2, you can simply look at my sig, Or you can go to the Ranger Forums and ask who Xsorus is (I'm the creator of one of the most power solo builds in the game, and the best Ranger build in the game even today)
Now with that said, Let me explain the difference between the two games.
1A - GW2 Currently has a pretty shit down system in place, While this isn't that bad for the SPvP part of the game, or the PvE part as you have to make up for the lack of having a trinity healing class (Everyone has heals, so naturally everyone can rez) this method doesn't work great in WvW, in fact its complete shit. Not only does it vastly reward outnumbering your opponent, It makes often killing people outside keeps pointless...Because they can simply be ressed by everyone..So unless the Smaller number in the keep manages to instantly wipe enough people of the large force outside the keep,There is no way for them to win. The Keep/Tower will be taken in the end. Then you get into the general down skills themselves being woefully uneven compared to each other (Some classes having stealth/ports) while other classes are just free stomps. This adds up to an ending theme in GW2, of rewards greater numbers.
1B - ESO doesn't have this, You die...you're dead... Players can use soul stones to eventually res you, But they're not easy to get..You also can't use them in combat from what I remember.
2A. - GW2 Zerging, Anet over rewards Zerging currently, in nearly every form of the game its frankly better to have more numbers. WXP for example is not spread between people who did damage to the target in small bits, For example..In daoc..If I was fighting a 1v1 on my Valkyrie, and I won the fight, I would get about 2-3k RPs for killing a target, However if I was on my valkyrie with my 8 man, and we killed someone solo, We're talking around 200 RPs...If DAOC used GW2 WXP system, Everyone in the group would of gotten 2k RPs for zerging that guy down. So zerging is always more profitable in GW2 then soloing. AOE is limited to 5 people in this game, Which means the number one tactic in Anet for Zerging is grouping up a huge mass of players and cleaving while following the command.. This is why most Piss Poor zerg guilds are 25 mans (not 5 mans or a single group like DAOC, nope.. that would be to hard for them) of nothing but Warriors/Gaurdians/Ele's/Necros with the occasional Thief. The only way to actually stop a ball like this is, to build a bunch of Arrow Carts which then cause those said players to complain.
2B. ESO small mans can actually take on larger numbers quite easy, as while every class can heal, you do need dedicated healers. So when running into Premade groups Larger Pug Zergs will have more trouble then before. Factor in Downing someone means they're dead and all a Small Man has to do is wipe enough people to put the numbers closer into their Odds.
3A. In GW2, Zergs are just as fast as Small Mans, With the way Buffs work in GW2, Its very easy for everyone in the zerg to get Swiftness, That means the zerg isn't slow. DAOC didn't work this way, as you had specific Speed Classes like Skalds/Bards/Minstrels that made a Zerg a slow moving target for fast moving 8 mans. This is a problem in a Mass PvP game as you want to break up the zerg as much as possible so numbers won't be overwhelming.
3A. In ESO everyone can get mounts, However Mounts take time to cast to get on to chase someone down... You also cannot mount in combat, Which means chasing people can be a pain because of this..however there is a special PvP skill line anyone can take, with the Rapid Maneuvers ability that is basically a Speed Buff for everyone around ya, that also makes you ignore roots/snares. This will be a primary ability to have in PvP... Because this is what Small Mans will be using for moving around the map, Not Mounts. It Remains to be seen if Zergs Adopt it.
4A. GW2 Combat and Controls is actually one of the thing I do give it better then currently than ESO, GW2 controls very well, and the combat is very fluid. Dodging is easy, your abilities work easily enough, It just plays good in this regard.
4B. ESO combat feels different from GW2, Its not that it is floaty, Its that it plays like an Elder Scrolls game, and Elder Scrolls never had good combat, Dodging for example...I can Dodge and Block in ESO, Blocking feels perfectly fine..However the second I go to Dodge in ESO without having enough stamina, My character comes to a full stop...That's incredibly annoying. Setting up the controls also is a pain in the ass in general, Because it kinda works out how DCUO was...Which works better if you had maybe a controller I think..Since I've always used a Mouse and N52 Pad I've found this type of control scheme to be pretty shitty, As I tend to use my Mouse to Move in general (Mouse 1 moves forward, Mouse 2 Backwards, the Left and Right key on N52 Strafes Left and Right) But since in ESO that's your Main Attack I have to move that over to the N52 pad to make it work..Its a very annoying system in general.
5A. The one thing i'll say about Gw2 currently is on even with ESO is Character Development, While Builds come and go in Gw2 from Nerfs and Buffs, it has a pretty decent build system for making unique characters. Though Most Characters usually come down to 3 Types of Builds in general, Glassy Power, Tanky Power, Tanky Condition. it still is pretty interesting how it works.
5B. The Trinity is back in ESO, Which is debatable on how it works. I know a lot of classes can heal without being the Healer, But if you want to keep a group up to prolonged assault you want a Dedicated one. I am disappointed that Tanks didn't have a Guard ability like Warhammer Online and SWTOR though, as I thought that was one of the best things that came from WAR. Build Wise I thought the game was going to end up being Poor when I first heard about only a 5 slot toolbar, But since its really 12 Slots (2 ultimates, 10 regular abilities, 2 weapons) I was actually more relieved, Not to mention the Morph's and such actually bring a whole new way of creating builds.
6A GW2 Maps are in general dog shit, They're small and they tend to focus people to zerg, the new EOTM map a lot of us roamers were hoping was going to be a roamer type map, has turned into nothing but a giant Karma farm for zergs..
6B. ESO's map is hilariously big, and opens room up for small manning in the game..Which is something I enjoyed a lot. Its probably the size of EOTM/Borderland maps/EB combined.... It is a virtual copy of DAOC's New Frontiers, except no water and no agramon in the middle (Cyrodil instead)
7A. GW2 Performance, at the start of the game large scale pvp in Gw2 was awful, You had culling and zerging was laggy as shit, They've since removed Culling but Zerging is still laggy as shit, and trust me when I say its not the computer, I currently run an i7-4820k 3.7 MHZ computer, 16 Gigs of DDR3 Ram, and 2 760GtX sli together on a 840 Pro Samsung SSD drive. I can get up to around 70 people, and then you start to feel the churn of lag, if it runs into anything else its a bloody laggy mess.
7B. Zero Lag, and i mean that..Zero in ESO....ESO PvP is honestly the best performing large scale pvp i've seen in a game to date..There is no lag ....I could have 200 people on my screen, and see them all.. and experience nothing in terms of an FPS drop..I had a constant 60+ no matter what I did in that game...
GW2 WvW is a match ...a fight between two servers for a specific limited time.
ESO is like the frontier in DAOC. but larger.The fighting on your instance/server NEVER ends.it is a true war.The fight is between 3 factions....not two servers like GW2.
Is it just me, or did "Shadanwolf" just put his foot in his mouth?
Everyone who even just logged into WvW once in GW2 knows there are 3 factions.
While we are speaking of feet in mouths, There is only one player faction in GW2.
There are 3 factions in ESO. Those 3 factions will wage war in Cyrodiil
In GW2 that 1 faction on 3 different servers will wage war on sever maps.
Faction is excually a correct term for GW2 when it comes to WvW. Because there are no Servers in GW2, they are called Worlds, hence the name World vs World vs World or short WvW.
In ESO a movement buff exists aswell. It is one of the special PvP support skills. It is a buff which improves the speed of players for i think 21 seconds. There are offensive and support pvp skills.
But since you have only a skill list with 5 abilities for each of your two weapons you need to think abou it if it is really needed.
First, let me start off with something, If you doubt I've played GW2, you can simply look at my sig, Or you can go to the Ranger Forums and ask who Xsorus is (I'm the creator of one of the most power solo builds in the game, and the best Ranger build in the game even today)
Now with that said, Let me explain the difference between the two games.
1A - GW2 Currently has a pretty shit down system in place, While this isn't that bad for the SPvP part of the game, or the PvE part as you have to make up for the lack of having a trinity healing class (Everyone has heals, so naturally everyone can rez) this method doesn't work great in WvW, in fact its complete shit. Not only does it vastly reward outnumbering your opponent, It makes often killing people outside keeps pointless...Because they can simply be ressed by everyone..So unless the Smaller number in the keep manages to instantly wipe enough people of the large force outside the keep,There is no way for them to win. The Keep/Tower will be taken in the end. Then you get into the general down skills themselves being woefully uneven compared to each other (Some classes having stealth/ports) while other classes are just free stomps. This adds up to an ending theme in GW2, of rewards greater numbers.
1B - ESO doesn't have this, You die...you're dead... Players can use soul stones to eventually res you, But they're not easy to get..You also can't use them in combat from what I remember.
2A. - GW2 Zerging, Anet over rewards Zerging currently, in nearly every form of the game its frankly better to have more numbers. WXP for example is not spread between people who did damage to the target in small bits, For example..In daoc..If I was fighting a 1v1 on my Valkyrie, and I won the fight, I would get about 2-3k RPs for killing a target, However if I was on my valkyrie with my 8 man, and we killed someone solo, We're talking around 200 RPs...If DAOC used GW2 WXP system, Everyone in the group would of gotten 2k RPs for zerging that guy down. So zerging is always more profitable in GW2 then soloing. AOE is limited to 5 people in this game, Which means the number one tactic in Anet for Zerging is grouping up a huge mass of players and cleaving while following the command.. This is why most Piss Poor zerg guilds are 25 mans (not 5 mans or a single group like DAOC, nope.. that would be to hard for them) of nothing but Warriors/Gaurdians/Ele's/Necros with the occasional Thief. The only way to actually stop a ball like this is, to build a bunch of Arrow Carts which then cause those said players to complain.
2B. ESO small mans can actually take on larger numbers quite easy, as while every class can heal, you do need dedicated healers. So when running into Premade groups Larger Pug Zergs will have more trouble then before. Factor in Downing someone means they're dead and all a Small Man has to do is wipe enough people to put the numbers closer into their Odds.
3A. In GW2, Zergs are just as fast as Small Mans, With the way Buffs work in GW2, Its very easy for everyone in the zerg to get Swiftness, That means the zerg isn't slow. DAOC didn't work this way, as you had specific Speed Classes like Skalds/Bards/Minstrels that made a Zerg a slow moving target for fast moving 8 mans. This is a problem in a Mass PvP game as you want to break up the zerg as much as possible so numbers won't be overwhelming.
3A. In ESO everyone can get mounts, However Mounts take time to cast to get on to chase someone down... You also cannot mount in combat, Which means chasing people can be a pain because of this..however there is a special PvP skill line anyone can take, with the Rapid Maneuvers ability that is basically a Speed Buff for everyone around ya, that also makes you ignore roots/snares. This will be a primary ability to have in PvP... Because this is what Small Mans will be using for moving around the map, Not Mounts. It Remains to be seen if Zergs Adopt it.
4A. GW2 Combat and Controls is actually one of the thing I do give it better then currently than ESO, GW2 controls very well, and the combat is very fluid. Dodging is easy, your abilities work easily enough, It just plays good in this regard.
4B. ESO combat feels different from GW2, Its not that it is floaty, Its that it plays like an Elder Scrolls game, and Elder Scrolls never had good combat, Dodging for example...I can Dodge and Block in ESO, Blocking feels perfectly fine..However the second I go to Dodge in ESO without having enough stamina, My character comes to a full stop...That's incredibly annoying. Setting up the controls also is a pain in the ass in general, Because it kinda works out how DCUO was...Which works better if you had maybe a controller I think..Since I've always used a Mouse and N52 Pad I've found this type of control scheme to be pretty shitty, As I tend to use my Mouse to Move in general (Mouse 1 moves forward, Mouse 2 Backwards, the Left and Right key on N52 Strafes Left and Right) But since in ESO that's your Main Attack I have to move that over to the N52 pad to make it work..Its a very annoying system in general.
5A. The one thing i'll say about Gw2 currently is on even with ESO is Character Development, While Builds come and go in Gw2 from Nerfs and Buffs, it has a pretty decent build system for making unique characters. Though Most Characters usually come down to 3 Types of Builds in general, Glassy Power, Tanky Power, Tanky Condition. it still is pretty interesting how it works.
5B. The Trinity is back in ESO, Which is debatable on how it works. I know a lot of classes can heal without being the Healer, But if you want to keep a group up to prolonged assault you want a Dedicated one. I am disappointed that Tanks didn't have a Guard ability like Warhammer Online and SWTOR though, as I thought that was one of the best things that came from WAR. Build Wise I thought the game was going to end up being Poor when I first heard about only a 5 slot toolbar, But since its really 12 Slots (2 ultimates, 10 regular abilities, 2 weapons) I was actually more relieved, Not to mention the Morph's and such actually bring a whole new way of creating builds.
6A GW2 Maps are in general dog shit, They're small and they tend to focus people to zerg, the new EOTM map a lot of us roamers were hoping was going to be a roamer type map, has turned into nothing but a giant Karma farm for zergs..
6B. ESO's map is hilariously big, and opens room up for small manning in the game..Which is something I enjoyed a lot. Its probably the size of EOTM/Borderland maps/EB combined.... It is a virtual copy of DAOC's New Frontiers, except no water and no agramon in the middle (Cyrodil instead)
7A. GW2 Performance, at the start of the game large scale pvp in Gw2 was awful, You had culling and zerging was laggy as shit, They've since removed Culling but Zerging is still laggy as shit, and trust me when I say its not the computer, I currently run an i7-4820k 3.7 MHZ computer, 16 Gigs of DDR3 Ram, and 2 760GtX sli together on a 840 Pro Samsung SSD drive. I can get up to around 70 people, and then you start to feel the churn of lag, if it runs into anything else its a bloody laggy mess.
7B. Zero Lag, and i mean that..Zero in ESO....ESO PvP is honestly the best performing large scale pvp i've seen in a game to date..There is no lag ....I could have 200 people on my screen, and see them all.. and experience nothing in terms of an FPS drop..I had a constant 60+ no matter what I did in that game...
Thanks this is a good list. Yeah down state in WvW and the WXP system really makes small team vs big zerg difficult. I don't like trinity though as i like to solo/duo roam, so if that's really important in ESO pvp that's a downer. I do wonder about the pros and cons of a really large map though, if there are not enough small objectives to get small teams to meet, wandering the large wilderness with a small chance to find fights can get boring.
6A GW2 Maps are in general dog shit, They're small and they tend to focus people to zerg, the new EOTM map a lot of us roamers were hoping was going to be a roamer type map, has turned into nothing but a giant Karma farm for zergs..
6B. ESO's map is hilariously big, and opens room up for small manning in the game..Which is something I enjoyed a lot. Its probably the size of EOTM/Borderland maps/EB combined.... It is a virtual copy of DAOC's New Frontiers, except no water and no agramon in the middle (Cyrodil instead)
6A - That's your opinion. I like GW2 Maps - there size means i don't need to spend 30 minutes runing around looking for a fight. There is always action in GW2.
6B - While the map is big, so are the number of players - i believe the only thing you will be abel to achieve with your small group after a month or so is to Gank PvErs and Soloers. GW2 was the same, it started as a small team - Guild groups - and turned in to Zerg over time. - the reason for that is the lack of collision system between characters.
If you want to expereince a Small-Medium type Guild PvP ( from 10 to 50-60 Players ) - i suggest you look at ArcheAge - they have a collision system in place which will prevent players from stacking in to Zergs that you see in GW2. And it's an Open World PvP - Sandbox/Themepark MMORPG. - Russians seem to be loving it - and thouse guys like to PvP.
Ok, one thing everyone has forgotten is one word, FUN!
You can all talk about ESO, Wildstar, GW2, WOW and all the other games out there, but what it all comes down to in the end is FUN!.
All these features that seems soooooo cool in ESO and the hype of the pvp calling this the next DAOC like many games before.
All talk about zergfest or not which is best, everybody hates Zerges but MANY ppl play GW2 so that don't add up. Maybe just maybe some ppl love a good zergfest were 100s of ppl clash into each other and just slaughter as many as you can just to die and then ress fast run as hell and try killing everyone again.
And all of you who say there is no tactics in GW2 you are wrong cause I play on one of the shittiest servers there is with some of the worst commanders known to man but when this one commander logs on we win everything, and no were not the biggest zerg out there this commander uses lots and lots of tactics.
We never just charge, we have scouts, we hide from a bigger threat just to attack them all at the right moment and then we crush them.
We send out fake attacks on castles and attack on the otherside, everything he does has a thought into it he is like the Sun Zu of GW2 and we love him.
I am not saying that GW2 is better then ESO cause that has to be something for everyone to discover for themselves and compairing them is always wrong I think. There are different flavors for everything in this world so why not mmos.
I am sure ESO will do fine and turn out to be a great game and I am also sure that all you DAOC fans out there who praises this game so much, half of you will hate it after awhile cause it's just a hype so far, what it turns out to be remains to be seen.
Warhammer was unbalanced but I still loved the pvp many ppl will argue that the game sucked and yes for all of them it did but not for me.
What it all comes down to in the end is FUN and if you don't have it then it doesn't matter how great the game is made cause you won't play it anyway.
Good luck all you ESO fans and I hope you have fun.
// Beelze
Ohh ps if all of you had sooooooo much fun in DAOC and its the greatest game ever made, why don't you just play it? Hell why doesn't everyone play it if it's so good? Hell why don't anyone play it anymore?
I think the only real difference between the two is that in GW2, skill trumps gear. Now I don't know for sure, but from what I'm reading about ESO is that it has a standard MMO mechanic of gear grind/progression. If that's true then in ESO, gear will trump skill. Some people like to depend on their gear for advantage, and others prefer to depend on their skill. I know which I prefer and will be playing the game that suits me more.
Originally posted by boxsnd Both are aimed to casual players. Both are about mindless zerging and taking empty keeps (PvDoor, PvGuards). ESO has better optimization but a way worse combat system. Both have uninteresting PvP progression. ESO's zones feel too empty (way too large compared to the people that it can handle).
You said the "Z" word.
Go watch this video 20 times and report back...we'll wait
You use this video to argue there will be no zerg in this game. But 20ish people against one 1 or maybe 2 defenders here or there is still a zerg and I can still see this becoming 40/50+ people smashing everything
Many people are leaving out the biggest fault of WvW. It is mostly the same now as it was at launch besides a few cheap additions. Anet puts the majority of their resources into the Living Story. They release a insignificant WvW update every now and then just so they can say that they aren't entirely ignoring WvW. The one big WvW addition they have added, Edge of the MIsts, just had to be attached to the living story. They treat WvW like the redheaded step child.
On the other hand, I get the impression that AvA is important to Zenimax. It seems like an AvA player won't be a second class citizen like a WvW player is in GW2.
All of that is said to say that I can live with AvA not being perfect at launch. WvW certainly wasn't, and many of the major bugs it had were only recently fixed. The fact Zenimax views AvA as a very important part of the game, that is equal with all other parts of the game, is enough for me to rate it above WvW.
EDIT: The WvW season structure and the new tournament structure demonstrate that all they care about is encouraging players to swap servers so that they can rack in money from the fees. They want nothing more than to introduce schemes that draw in money.
Originally posted by boxsnd Both are aimed to casual players. Both are about mindless zerging and taking empty keeps (PvDoor, PvGuards). ESO has better optimization but a way worse combat system. Both have uninteresting PvP progression. ESO's zones feel too empty (way too large compared to the people that it can handle).
You said the "Z" word.
Go watch this video 20 times and report back...we'll wait
You use this video to argue there will be no zerg in this game. But 20ish people against one 1 or maybe 2 defenders here or there is still a zerg and I can still see this becoming 40/50+ people smashing everything
I agree, this is nothing more then a zergfest, it looks exactly like GW2 but with different graphics, using this video to prove there is no zergfest in ESO is just funny. If Anet were to lock the zoom in and out on your char you couldn't even see any difference execpt that the animations are worse in ESO.
So if you wanna play this game with a sub the ESO is your game and if you don't wanna pay any sub then GW2 is your game
Many people are leaving out the biggest fault of WvW. It is mostly the same now as it was at launch besides a few cheap additions. Anet puts the majority of their resources into the Living Story. They release a insignificant WvW update every now and then just so they can say that they aren't entirely ignoring WvW. The one big WvW addition they have added, Edge of the MIsts, just had to be attached to the living story. They treat WvW like the redheaded step child.
Ah yes, that's why they just released a complete, huge new WvW area.
Yes, I mentioned that in my post.
A. It is attached to the Living Story because Living Story is all they care about.
B. GW2 launched more than a year ago. This is the first major WvW update they've released since then while they've released a plethora of content for other game modes.
Many people are leaving out the biggest fault of WvW. It is mostly the same now as it was at launch besides a few cheap additions. Anet puts the majority of their resources into the Living Story. They release a insignificant WvW update every now and then just so they can say that they aren't entirely ignoring WvW. The one big WvW addition they have added, Edge of the MIsts, just had to be attached to the living story. They treat WvW like the redheaded step child.
Ah yes, that's why they just released a complete, huge new WvW area.
Yes, I mentioned that in my post.
A. It is attached to the Living Story because Living Story is all they care about.
B. GW2 launched more than a year ago. This is the first major WvW update they've released since then while they've released a plethora of content for other game modes.
You forget to mention the addition of ranks and of WvW character progression, along with the many other improvements made in almost every patch.
If you wanted to give the example of a game which treats PvP like the "redheaded step child", you should have used e.g. LOTRO, which has the same single PvP map since its release in 2007, 7 years ago. Maybe you just don't have enough experience to know when a game really treats a feature like a negligible option.
Let's see what Bethesda/Zenimax have added to ESO in a year or so, with their unique PvP zone.
It is definitely mentioned if you read carefully. I said insignificant updates have been added. Ranks are insignificant and should have been there at launch. I cannot give them credit for eventually adding progression to a game mode that they originally released with absolutely no progression. The ranks should have been there at launch. Minor Improvements are insignificant and expected.
After more than a year, Edge of the Mists, is the first really major content release on par with all of the other major updates that other game modes have received. You can dance around that all you want, but there is no getting away from it. WvW is Anet's lowest priority.
Don't get me wrong. I play WvW regularly and I like it to an extent. My combined WvW rank between 3 toons is over 600. However, I am not going to blindly act like it is perfect. Anet neglects WvW in favor of Living Story heavily. They put more time and resources into the Living Story. Their major WvW update, just had to be attached to the Living Story.
EDIT:
Also, I did play LOTRO for a while. I exclusively played Monster Play for a very long time. I loved my Warg. I was okay with Monster Play. In it's time, Monster Play was a decent game mode. It is certainly true that they neglected it big time in the long run. The amount of potential that they wasted is staggering. While Decent, Monsterplay could have been great.
Originally posted by Torvaldr I'm curious to see how balancing out 3 fixed factions will work out. Will phasing happen in RvR? Since it's a megaserver and limited seats to pvp zone, will the spin up another instance of the zone for additional people to play in?
You'll be a part of a "Campaign", and there will be multiple campaigns.
Each Campaign will support about 2,000 people in it, so that's where the queue is coming from, if you can't get it, it's because the Cyrodil zone is full. This means there won't just be one emperor, but rather one emperor per campaign.
I'm curious to see what happens a month after launch when 1 faction is completely dominating the other 2. Faction pride no longer exists in my opinion so i expect rerolls to the winning teams before there's any chance of the 2 weaker ones teaming up.
The entire point of a 3 faction system is for balance but I've seen enough of today's player base to know better. They don't want competition. They want to win.
Originally posted by Alders I'm curious to see what happens a month after launch when 1 faction is completely dominating the other 2. Faction pride no longer exists in my opinion so i expect rerolls to the winning teams before there's any chance of the 2 weaker ones teaming up.The entire point of a 3 faction system is for balance but I've seen enough of today's player base to know better. They don't want competition. They want to win.
You do realize that there are multiple campaigns, right? There is not just one Cyrodil and one Emperor for the entire game. Each campaign will have winners and losers, so instead of people re-rolling, I think it's possible you'll see people switch campaigns. Still faction pride, still keep the same character, just leave the fight you are in.
It's essentially the same impact, but over time, these things do generally even out.
Originally posted by Alders I'm curious to see what happens a month after launch when 1 faction is completely dominating the other 2. Faction pride no longer exists in my opinion so i expect rerolls to the winning teams before there's any chance of the 2 weaker ones teaming up.
The entire point of a 3 faction system is for balance but I've seen enough of today's player base to know better. They don't want competition. They want to win.
You do realize that there are multiple campaigns, right? There is not just one Cyrodil and one Emperor for the entire game. Each campaign will have winners and losers, so instead of people re-rolling, I think it's possible you'll see people switch campaigns. Still faction pride, still keep the same character, just leave the fight you are in.
It's essentially the same impact, but over time, these things do generally even out.
Doesn't that sort of make the entire campaign meaningless?
Originally posted by rodingo I think the only real difference between the two is that in GW2, skill trumps gear. Now I don't know for sure, but from what I'm reading about ESO is that it has a standard MMO mechanic of gear grind/progression. If that's true then in ESO, gear will trump skill. Some people like to depend on their gear for advantage, and others prefer to depend on their skill. I know which I prefer and will be playing the game that suits me more.
This is untrue
GW2 Build (Which includes Gear) trumps skill, You can be the most amazing Guardian in the world, I will absolutely shit on you two ways from sunday with a BM Bunker Ranger...Same with You going say Power Based Ranger... BM Bunker will shit on ya, Hell Even looking at a BM Bunker vs Shout build Ranger (using the same gear, but slightly different build) resulted in BM Bunker being the better spec when fighting each other. (BM Bunker kills Shout Rangers Pet, Shout Ranger dies right afterward)
Originally posted by rodingo I think the only real difference between the two is that in GW2, skill trumps gear. Now I don't know for sure, but from what I'm reading about ESO is that it has a standard MMO mechanic of gear grind/progression. If that's true then in ESO, gear will trump skill. Some people like to depend on their gear for advantage, and others prefer to depend on their skill. I know which I prefer and will be playing the game that suits me more.
This is untrue
GW2 Build (Which includes Gear) trumps skill, You can be the most amazing Guardian in the world, I will absolutely shit on you two ways from sunday with a BM Bunker Ranger...Same with You going say Power Based Ranger... BM Bunker will shit on ya, Hell Even looking at a BM Bunker vs Shout build Ranger (using the same gear, but slightly different build) resulted in BM Bunker being the better spec when fighting each other. (BM Bunker kills Shout Rangers Pet, Shout Ranger dies right afterward)
This is true. GW2 goes further than most games in promoting Skill, but build and profession are much more important.
Originally posted by Alders Originally posted by BaikalOriginally posted by AldersI'm curious to see what happens a month after launch when 1 faction is completely dominating the other 2. Faction pride no longer exists in my opinion so i expect rerolls to the winning teams before there's any chance of the 2 weaker ones teaming up.The entire point of a 3 faction system is for balance but I've seen enough of today's player base to know better. They don't want competition. They want to win.
You do realize that there are multiple campaigns, right? There is not just one Cyrodil and one Emperor for the entire game. Each campaign will have winners and losers, so instead of people re-rolling, I think it's possible you'll see people switch campaigns. Still faction pride, still keep the same character, just leave the fight you are in.It's essentially the same impact, but over time, these things do generally even out.
Doesn't that sort of make the entire campaign meaningless?
I'm not sure how you figure that.
What I can figure though, is that you posted your initial opinion without any kind of fundamental knowledge of what the PvP system is in ESO. No offense intended, but an opinion without the basic info is bound to have a couple of flaws.
While you can "guest" in another campaign, you can't carry over benefits, and you cant non-stop change campaigns until you find one that you like either.
I'm curious to see what happens a month after launch when 1 faction is completely dominating the other 2. Faction pride no longer exists in my opinion so i expect rerolls to the winning teams before there's any chance of the 2 weaker ones teaming up.
The entire point of a 3 faction system is for balance but I've seen enough of today's player base to know better. They don't want competition. They want to win.
Everyone is curios to see how the game will be at higher levels in pvp and pve. Everything else are just speculations from armchair generals.
I'm curious to see what happens a month after launch when 1 faction is completely dominating the other 2. Faction pride no longer exists in my opinion so i expect rerolls to the winning teams before there's any chance of the 2 weaker ones teaming up.
The entire point of a 3 faction system is for balance but I've seen enough of today's player base to know better. They don't want competition. They want to win.
Congratulations for pointing out an issue that has existed in every mass pvp game ever made.
If everyone re-rolls to one side then they will have to wait in a long queue to get into pvp.
Its usually only the solo bandwagoners who will jump ship and end up clogging up the queue for the actually skilled players.
Also some people like playing as the underdogs and never having to worry about running out of targets.
I'm curious to see what happens a month after launch when 1 faction is completely dominating the other 2. Faction pride no longer exists in my opinion so i expect rerolls to the winning teams before there's any chance of the 2 weaker ones teaming up.
The entire point of a 3 faction system is for balance but I've seen enough of today's player base to know better. They don't want competition. They want to win.
Congratulations for pointing out an issue that has existed in every mass pvp game ever made.
If everyone re-rolls to one side then they will have to wait in a long queue to get into pvp.
Its usually only the solo bandwagoners who will jump ship and end up clogging up the queue for the actually skilled players.
Also some people like playing as the underdogs and never having to worry about running out of targets.
I think the key, as a player, is to stick with a rock solid Guild that has a good leader. If you can manage that, it won't matter which server you're on, you'll still have fun and you'll still get things accomplished in RvR. Most of the whiners typically get stuck in PUGs (with no rhyme or reason, other than to randomly swing their axes or sling their fireballs) all day.
Originally posted by rodingo I think the only real difference between the two is that in GW2, skill trumps gear. Now I don't know for sure, but from what I'm reading about ESO is that it has a standard MMO mechanic of gear grind/progression. If that's true then in ESO, gear will trump skill. Some people like to depend on their gear for advantage, and others prefer to depend on their skill. I know which I prefer and will be playing the game that suits me more.
This is untrue
GW2 Build (Which includes Gear) trumps skill, You can be the most amazing Guardian in the world, I will absolutely shit on you two ways from sunday with a BM Bunker Ranger...Same with You going say Power Based Ranger... BM Bunker will shit on ya, Hell Even looking at a BM Bunker vs Shout build Ranger (using the same gear, but slightly different build) resulted in BM Bunker being the better spec when fighting each other. (BM Bunker kills Shout Rangers Pet, Shout Ranger dies right afterward)
My reference to gear is based on the various tiers normally seen with raids or pvp seasons in most other MMOs. Your argument is on gear/stat selection which isn't the same as gear tiers. I agree and know what you are saying, but it's not what I'm talking about.
Comments
First, let me start off with something, If you doubt I've played GW2, you can simply look at my sig, Or you can go to the Ranger Forums and ask who Xsorus is (I'm the creator of one of the most power solo builds in the game, and the best Ranger build in the game even today)
Now with that said, Let me explain the difference between the two games.
1A - GW2 Currently has a pretty shit down system in place, While this isn't that bad for the SPvP part of the game, or the PvE part as you have to make up for the lack of having a trinity healing class (Everyone has heals, so naturally everyone can rez) this method doesn't work great in WvW, in fact its complete shit. Not only does it vastly reward outnumbering your opponent, It makes often killing people outside keeps pointless...Because they can simply be ressed by everyone..So unless the Smaller number in the keep manages to instantly wipe enough people of the large force outside the keep,There is no way for them to win. The Keep/Tower will be taken in the end. Then you get into the general down skills themselves being woefully uneven compared to each other (Some classes having stealth/ports) while other classes are just free stomps. This adds up to an ending theme in GW2, of rewards greater numbers.
1B - ESO doesn't have this, You die...you're dead... Players can use soul stones to eventually res you, But they're not easy to get..You also can't use them in combat from what I remember.
2A. - GW2 Zerging, Anet over rewards Zerging currently, in nearly every form of the game its frankly better to have more numbers. WXP for example is not spread between people who did damage to the target in small bits, For example..In daoc..If I was fighting a 1v1 on my Valkyrie, and I won the fight, I would get about 2-3k RPs for killing a target, However if I was on my valkyrie with my 8 man, and we killed someone solo, We're talking around 200 RPs...If DAOC used GW2 WXP system, Everyone in the group would of gotten 2k RPs for zerging that guy down. So zerging is always more profitable in GW2 then soloing. AOE is limited to 5 people in this game, Which means the number one tactic in Anet for Zerging is grouping up a huge mass of players and cleaving while following the command.. This is why most Piss Poor zerg guilds are 25 mans (not 5 mans or a single group like DAOC, nope.. that would be to hard for them) of nothing but Warriors/Gaurdians/Ele's/Necros with the occasional Thief. The only way to actually stop a ball like this is, to build a bunch of Arrow Carts which then cause those said players to complain.
2B. ESO small mans can actually take on larger numbers quite easy, as while every class can heal, you do need dedicated healers. So when running into Premade groups Larger Pug Zergs will have more trouble then before. Factor in Downing someone means they're dead and all a Small Man has to do is wipe enough people to put the numbers closer into their Odds.
3A. In GW2, Zergs are just as fast as Small Mans, With the way Buffs work in GW2, Its very easy for everyone in the zerg to get Swiftness, That means the zerg isn't slow. DAOC didn't work this way, as you had specific Speed Classes like Skalds/Bards/Minstrels that made a Zerg a slow moving target for fast moving 8 mans. This is a problem in a Mass PvP game as you want to break up the zerg as much as possible so numbers won't be overwhelming.
3A. In ESO everyone can get mounts, However Mounts take time to cast to get on to chase someone down... You also cannot mount in combat, Which means chasing people can be a pain because of this..however there is a special PvP skill line anyone can take, with the Rapid Maneuvers ability that is basically a Speed Buff for everyone around ya, that also makes you ignore roots/snares. This will be a primary ability to have in PvP... Because this is what Small Mans will be using for moving around the map, Not Mounts. It Remains to be seen if Zergs Adopt it.
4A. GW2 Combat and Controls is actually one of the thing I do give it better then currently than ESO, GW2 controls very well, and the combat is very fluid. Dodging is easy, your abilities work easily enough, It just plays good in this regard.
4B. ESO combat feels different from GW2, Its not that it is floaty, Its that it plays like an Elder Scrolls game, and Elder Scrolls never had good combat, Dodging for example...I can Dodge and Block in ESO, Blocking feels perfectly fine..However the second I go to Dodge in ESO without having enough stamina, My character comes to a full stop...That's incredibly annoying. Setting up the controls also is a pain in the ass in general, Because it kinda works out how DCUO was...Which works better if you had maybe a controller I think..Since I've always used a Mouse and N52 Pad I've found this type of control scheme to be pretty shitty, As I tend to use my Mouse to Move in general (Mouse 1 moves forward, Mouse 2 Backwards, the Left and Right key on N52 Strafes Left and Right) But since in ESO that's your Main Attack I have to move that over to the N52 pad to make it work..Its a very annoying system in general.
5A. The one thing i'll say about Gw2 currently is on even with ESO is Character Development, While Builds come and go in Gw2 from Nerfs and Buffs, it has a pretty decent build system for making unique characters. Though Most Characters usually come down to 3 Types of Builds in general, Glassy Power, Tanky Power, Tanky Condition. it still is pretty interesting how it works.
5B. The Trinity is back in ESO, Which is debatable on how it works. I know a lot of classes can heal without being the Healer, But if you want to keep a group up to prolonged assault you want a Dedicated one. I am disappointed that Tanks didn't have a Guard ability like Warhammer Online and SWTOR though, as I thought that was one of the best things that came from WAR. Build Wise I thought the game was going to end up being Poor when I first heard about only a 5 slot toolbar, But since its really 12 Slots (2 ultimates, 10 regular abilities, 2 weapons) I was actually more relieved, Not to mention the Morph's and such actually bring a whole new way of creating builds.
6A GW2 Maps are in general dog shit, They're small and they tend to focus people to zerg, the new EOTM map a lot of us roamers were hoping was going to be a roamer type map, has turned into nothing but a giant Karma farm for zergs..
6B. ESO's map is hilariously big, and opens room up for small manning in the game..Which is something I enjoyed a lot. Its probably the size of EOTM/Borderland maps/EB combined.... It is a virtual copy of DAOC's New Frontiers, except no water and no agramon in the middle (Cyrodil instead)
7A. GW2 Performance, at the start of the game large scale pvp in Gw2 was awful, You had culling and zerging was laggy as shit, They've since removed Culling but Zerging is still laggy as shit, and trust me when I say its not the computer, I currently run an i7-4820k 3.7 MHZ computer, 16 Gigs of DDR3 Ram, and 2 760GtX sli together on a 840 Pro Samsung SSD drive. I can get up to around 70 people, and then you start to feel the churn of lag, if it runs into anything else its a bloody laggy mess.
7B. Zero Lag, and i mean that..Zero in ESO....ESO PvP is honestly the best performing large scale pvp i've seen in a game to date..There is no lag ....I could have 200 people on my screen, and see them all.. and experience nothing in terms of an FPS drop..I had a constant 60+ no matter what I did in that game...
Faction is excually a correct term for GW2 when it comes to WvW. Because there are no Servers in GW2, they are called Worlds, hence the name World vs World vs World or short WvW.
In ESO a movement buff exists aswell. It is one of the special PvP support skills. It is a buff which improves the speed of players for i think 21 seconds. There are offensive and support pvp skills.
But since you have only a skill list with 5 abilities for each of your two weapons you need to think abou it if it is really needed.
Thanks this is a good list. Yeah down state in WvW and the WXP system really makes small team vs big zerg difficult. I don't like trinity though as i like to solo/duo roam, so if that's really important in ESO pvp that's a downer. I do wonder about the pros and cons of a really large map though, if there are not enough small objectives to get small teams to meet, wandering the large wilderness with a small chance to find fights can get boring.
6A - That's your opinion. I like GW2 Maps - there size means i don't need to spend 30 minutes runing around looking for a fight. There is always action in GW2.
6B - While the map is big, so are the number of players - i believe the only thing you will be abel to achieve with your small group after a month or so is to Gank PvErs and Soloers. GW2 was the same, it started as a small team - Guild groups - and turned in to Zerg over time. - the reason for that is the lack of collision system between characters.
If you want to expereince a Small-Medium type Guild PvP ( from 10 to 50-60 Players ) - i suggest you look at ArcheAge - they have a collision system in place which will prevent players from stacking in to Zergs that you see in GW2. And it's an Open World PvP - Sandbox/Themepark MMORPG. - Russians seem to be loving it - and thouse guys like to PvP.
Ok, one thing everyone has forgotten is one word, FUN!
You can all talk about ESO, Wildstar, GW2, WOW and all the other games out there, but what it all comes down to in the end is FUN!.
All these features that seems soooooo cool in ESO and the hype of the pvp calling this the next DAOC like many games before.
All talk about zergfest or not which is best, everybody hates Zerges but MANY ppl play GW2 so that don't add up. Maybe just maybe some ppl love a good zergfest were 100s of ppl clash into each other and just slaughter as many as you can just to die and then ress fast run as hell and try killing everyone again.
And all of you who say there is no tactics in GW2 you are wrong cause I play on one of the shittiest servers there is with some of the worst commanders known to man but when this one commander logs on we win everything, and no were not the biggest zerg out there this commander uses lots and lots of tactics.
We never just charge, we have scouts, we hide from a bigger threat just to attack them all at the right moment and then we crush them.
We send out fake attacks on castles and attack on the otherside, everything he does has a thought into it he is like the Sun Zu of GW2 and we love him.
I am not saying that GW2 is better then ESO cause that has to be something for everyone to discover for themselves and compairing them is always wrong I think. There are different flavors for everything in this world so why not mmos.
I am sure ESO will do fine and turn out to be a great game and I am also sure that all you DAOC fans out there who praises this game so much, half of you will hate it after awhile cause it's just a hype so far, what it turns out to be remains to be seen.
Warhammer was unbalanced but I still loved the pvp many ppl will argue that the game sucked and yes for all of them it did but not for me.
What it all comes down to in the end is FUN and if you don't have it then it doesn't matter how great the game is made cause you won't play it anyway.
Good luck all you ESO fans and I hope you have fun.
// Beelze
Ohh ps if all of you had sooooooo much fun in DAOC and its the greatest game ever made, why don't you just play it? Hell why doesn't everyone play it if it's so good? Hell why don't anyone play it anymore?
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
You use this video to argue there will be no zerg in this game. But 20ish people against one 1 or maybe 2 defenders here or there is still a zerg and I can still see this becoming 40/50+ people smashing everything
Many people are leaving out the biggest fault of WvW. It is mostly the same now as it was at launch besides a few cheap additions. Anet puts the majority of their resources into the Living Story. They release a insignificant WvW update every now and then just so they can say that they aren't entirely ignoring WvW. The one big WvW addition they have added, Edge of the MIsts, just had to be attached to the living story. They treat WvW like the redheaded step child.
On the other hand, I get the impression that AvA is important to Zenimax. It seems like an AvA player won't be a second class citizen like a WvW player is in GW2.
All of that is said to say that I can live with AvA not being perfect at launch. WvW certainly wasn't, and many of the major bugs it had were only recently fixed. The fact Zenimax views AvA as a very important part of the game, that is equal with all other parts of the game, is enough for me to rate it above WvW.
EDIT: The WvW season structure and the new tournament structure demonstrate that all they care about is encouraging players to swap servers so that they can rack in money from the fees. They want nothing more than to introduce schemes that draw in money.
I agree, this is nothing more then a zergfest, it looks exactly like GW2 but with different graphics, using this video to prove there is no zergfest in ESO is just funny. If Anet were to lock the zoom in and out on your char you couldn't even see any difference execpt that the animations are worse in ESO.
So if you wanna play this game with a sub the ESO is your game and if you don't wanna pay any sub then GW2 is your game
Yes, I mentioned that in my post.
A. It is attached to the Living Story because Living Story is all they care about.
B. GW2 launched more than a year ago. This is the first major WvW update they've released since then while they've released a plethora of content for other game modes.
It is definitely mentioned if you read carefully. I said insignificant updates have been added. Ranks are insignificant and should have been there at launch. I cannot give them credit for eventually adding progression to a game mode that they originally released with absolutely no progression. The ranks should have been there at launch. Minor Improvements are insignificant and expected.
After more than a year, Edge of the Mists, is the first really major content release on par with all of the other major updates that other game modes have received. You can dance around that all you want, but there is no getting away from it. WvW is Anet's lowest priority.
Don't get me wrong. I play WvW regularly and I like it to an extent. My combined WvW rank between 3 toons is over 600. However, I am not going to blindly act like it is perfect. Anet neglects WvW in favor of Living Story heavily. They put more time and resources into the Living Story. Their major WvW update, just had to be attached to the Living Story.
EDIT:
Also, I did play LOTRO for a while. I exclusively played Monster Play for a very long time. I loved my Warg. I was okay with Monster Play. In it's time, Monster Play was a decent game mode. It is certainly true that they neglected it big time in the long run. The amount of potential that they wasted is staggering. While Decent, Monsterplay could have been great.
You'll be a part of a "Campaign", and there will be multiple campaigns.
Each Campaign will support about 2,000 people in it, so that's where the queue is coming from, if you can't get it, it's because the Cyrodil zone is full. This means there won't just be one emperor, but rather one emperor per campaign.
I'm curious to see what happens a month after launch when 1 faction is completely dominating the other 2. Faction pride no longer exists in my opinion so i expect rerolls to the winning teams before there's any chance of the 2 weaker ones teaming up.
The entire point of a 3 faction system is for balance but I've seen enough of today's player base to know better. They don't want competition. They want to win.
You do realize that there are multiple campaigns, right? There is not just one Cyrodil and one Emperor for the entire game. Each campaign will have winners and losers, so instead of people re-rolling, I think it's possible you'll see people switch campaigns. Still faction pride, still keep the same character, just leave the fight you are in.
It's essentially the same impact, but over time, these things do generally even out.
Doesn't that sort of make the entire campaign meaningless?
This is untrue
GW2 Build (Which includes Gear) trumps skill, You can be the most amazing Guardian in the world, I will absolutely shit on you two ways from sunday with a BM Bunker Ranger...Same with You going say Power Based Ranger... BM Bunker will shit on ya, Hell Even looking at a BM Bunker vs Shout build Ranger (using the same gear, but slightly different build) resulted in BM Bunker being the better spec when fighting each other. (BM Bunker kills Shout Rangers Pet, Shout Ranger dies right afterward)
This is true. GW2 goes further than most games in promoting Skill, but build and profession are much more important.
Doesn't that sort of make the entire campaign meaningless?
I'm not sure how you figure that.
What I can figure though, is that you posted your initial opinion without any kind of fundamental knowledge of what the PvP system is in ESO. No offense intended, but an opinion without the basic info is bound to have a couple of flaws.
While you can "guest" in another campaign, you can't carry over benefits, and you cant non-stop change campaigns until you find one that you like either.
Everyone is curios to see how the game will be at higher levels in pvp and pve. Everything else are just speculations from armchair generals.
It's a video game, not a book on philosophy.
Congratulations for pointing out an issue that has existed in every mass pvp game ever made.
If everyone re-rolls to one side then they will have to wait in a long queue to get into pvp.
Its usually only the solo bandwagoners who will jump ship and end up clogging up the queue for the actually skilled players.
Also some people like playing as the underdogs and never having to worry about running out of targets.
I think the key, as a player, is to stick with a rock solid Guild that has a good leader. If you can manage that, it won't matter which server you're on, you'll still have fun and you'll still get things accomplished in RvR. Most of the whiners typically get stuck in PUGs (with no rhyme or reason, other than to randomly swing their axes or sling their fireballs) all day.
My reference to gear is based on the various tiers normally seen with raids or pvp seasons in most other MMOs. Your argument is on gear/stat selection which isn't the same as gear tiers. I agree and know what you are saying, but it's not what I'm talking about.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor