Freedom of choice

Lord.Bachus · February 2014

While i really love the classtree system, there is one thing disturbing me... espescially for PvE... (Its an opinion so i could be wrong, never got past level 15)

I get this feeling that Dragon knights will allways be the best tanks... sure other classes will be acceptable to good tanks... but Dragon knights are so far the only class that has the tools to really excell in tanking

Same goes for healing, templars have such an advantage of being able to heal withouth a healingstaff, its not funny anymore.. which allows then to use a second weapon to do a bit of damage when needed and still having strong healing.

There is one thing i can see ... thats a Templar selfhealing tank.. but that might lack the crowdcontroll to perform his tanking job..

And in a PvP environment i can see many many advantages of Nightblades better stealth... doing things like being a stealth healier and such... but in PvE, they will never be the great healer people want to have at their side in instances and adventure zones

Balkin31 · February 2014

I think this was the mindset behind creating the classes, to give the game an MMO trinity so most players would be somewhat familiar with their roles in the game!

During the beta I played mostly by NOT choosing any class skills and found myself a bit weak, more experimentation is needed though to see if maybe I can supplement guild skills (mage, fighter, undaunted) and still be ok!

askdaboss · February 2014

I kind of agree... Still, I think they will wait to see how the "meta" evolves before making any drastic changes though. There might be a few surprises build-wise once the floodgates are open, I am looking forward to this (people doing the most unlikely builds, and pulling it off).

[Deleted User] · February 2014

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arieste · February 2014

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

templars have such an advantage of being able to heal withouth a healingstaff, its not funny anymore.. which allows then to use a second weapon to do a bit of damage when needed and still having strong healing.

But then by that logic a nightblade would have an advantage to be able to DPS with abilities while wielding a healing staff for healing.

I do get your overall concern, but i think we'll need to see just how much benefit there is for "specialization". It's pretty obvious that the specializing in a class that has heals AND weapon that has heals will result in highest heals. But whether such specialization will be beneficial is not known. Perhaps having a healer that has weaker heals but is harder to kill (maybe DK + resto staff) will actually be better because of mass AoEs than a squishy healer that can do huge heals.

In most games, specialization = win, so your thought process makes sense. But i think there are quite a few options beyond just class-skills in ESO that might make for interesting hybrid builds.

Personally, i plan to play a bow-nightblade based on stealth/dps, but my with healer as my secondary role. I'll see how i can leverage nightblade for heals.

Lord.Bachus · February 2014

Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

templars have such an advantage of being able to heal withouth a healingstaff, its not funny anymore.. which allows then to use a second weapon to do a bit of damage when needed and still having strong healing.

But then by that logic a nightblade would have an advantage to be able to DPS with abilities while wielding a healing staff for healing.

I do get your overall concern, but i think we'll need to see just how much benefit there is for "specialization". It's pretty obvious that the specializing in a class that has heals AND weapon that has heals will result in highest heals. But whether such specialization will be beneficial is not known. Perhaps having a healer that has weaker heals but is harder to heal (maybe DK + resto staff) will actually be better because of mass AoEs than a squishy healer that can do huge heals.

In most games, specialization = win, so your thought process makes sense. But i think there are quite a few options beyond just class-skills in ESO that might make for interesting hybrid builds.

Personally, i plan to play a bow-nightblade based on stealth/dps, but my with healer as my secondary role. I'll see how i can leverage nightblade for heals.

Not really... because there will be no stamina based DPS abbilities avaialble for use with the healing staff... and you will want to save the magica for healing and not spoil it on DPS ing

Pyatra · February 2014

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

templars have such an advantage of being able to heal withouth a healingstaff, its not funny anymore.. which allows then to use a second weapon to do a bit of damage when needed and still having strong healing.

But then by that logic a nightblade would have an advantage to be able to DPS with abilities while wielding a healing staff for healing.

I do get your overall concern, but i think we'll need to see just how much benefit there is for "specialization". It's pretty obvious that the specializing in a class that has heals AND weapon that has heals will result in highest heals. But whether such specialization will be beneficial is not known. Perhaps having a healer that has weaker heals but is harder to heal (maybe DK + resto staff) will actually be better because of mass AoEs than a squishy healer that can do huge heals.

In most games, specialization = win, so your thought process makes sense. But i think there are quite a few options beyond just class-skills in ESO that might make for interesting hybrid builds.

Personally, i plan to play a bow-nightblade based on stealth/dps, but my with healer as my secondary role. I'll see how i can leverage nightblade for heals.

Not really... because there will be no stamina based DPS abbilities avaialble for use with the healing staff... and you will want to save the magica for healing and not spoil it on DPS ing

Fighters, thieves, and dark brother hood I believe will be stamina based.

BadSpock · February 2014

The racial traits I have seen make it pretty clear cut what race/class combos are "best optimized" for min/maxers.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but you are going to see a LOT of Wood Elf Night Blade archers and Nord Dragon Knight 2H'ers etc.

Pyatra · February 2014

Originally posted by BadSpock
The racial traits I have seen make it pretty clear cut what race/class combos are "best optimized" for min/maxers.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but you are going to see a LOT of Wood Elf Night Blade archers and Nord Dragon Knight 2H'ers etc.

Till they hit the soft caps. You can easily perfect any roll with 3/4. For example my character:

Beta Character build.

Level 18
Restoration Staff
Heavy Armor
Sorceror
Altmer
Crafting: Level 6-8, Alchemy, Enchanting, Clothier.
Crafting: Level 10-11, Blacksmithing, Woodworking
Crafting: Level 23, Provisioning
Altmeri Dominion

I was keeping up with softcaps through gear on magicka/M Regen even though I went Heavy Armor. I was a beast in PVP, running charges with the melee groups, throwing CC and Crystal Shards everywhere. Top line AoE heals that also buffed DEF, AoE CC, Crystal single target death, Mage Light to improve crit % and not get ganked by ninjas, and the anti-magic bubble for the ultimate. If I would have found a second really good resto staff I would have used my second skill set.

Also while Null field is nice, when I get Meteor I will drop Crystal shards off my main weapon and put the Support line bubble in. Second set will keep some self heals but be DPS. Any way, long story short you have a bit of leeway when making your build.

SpottyGekko · February 2014

Originally posted by BadSpock
The racial traits I have seen make it pretty clear cut what race/class combos are "best optimized" for min/maxers.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but you are going to see a LOT of Wood Elf Night Blade archers and Nord Dragon Knight 2H'ers etc.

Lol, I fully expect that at least 50% of the Cyrodiil population at any given moment will be Wood Elf NightBlade archers !

I also suspect that those that take the time to theorycraft and test combo's will be richly rewarded. The range of options is just too great to result in 2 or 3 "ultimate builds".

arieste · February 2014

Originally posted by BadSpock
you are going to see a LOT of Wood Elf Night Blade archers

Who're all going to suck compared to Khajit nightblade archers because they took the Wood Elf XP bonus instead of the Khajit's crit bonus. 8D

Anyhow.. i'm just bitter than Argonians (who're supposed to be scouts) are going to be tanks due to racials. I like Argonians, but hate tanks

BadSpock · February 2014

How many skill points do you get?

I guess I don't understand the build making system all too well.

Pyatra · February 2014

If you hit everything in PVE and snag the sky shards in Cyrodiil 300+ skill points. But that includes the 50+ and 50++ areas.

BadSpock · February 2014

Originally posted by Pyatra
If you hit everything in PVE and snag the sky shards in Cyrodiil 300+ skill points. But that includes the 50+ and 50++ areas.

So how many skill points to "max out" the 10 skills on your two bars due to weapon swap, including all your passives and armor passives and racial passives etc.?

HighMarshal · February 2014

Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Pyatra
If you hit everything in PVE and snag the sky shards in Cyrodiil 300+ skill points. But that includes the 50+ and 50++ areas.

So how many skill points to "max out" the 10 skills on your two bars due to weapon swap, including all your passives and armor passives and racial passives etc.?

If you took every skill and passive in a line, it should take 20 points to max it out. Lets say that for some reason you used a weapon line on one hotbar and all the class skills on the other one. Add 11 more for the armor passives if you only used one type of armor, then you have 51 points used. Most likely it will be less than that or possibly more depending on how you build.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

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SpottyGekko · February 2014

Originally posted by HighMarshal
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Pyatra
If you hit everything in PVE and snag the sky shards in Cyrodiil 300+ skill points. But that includes the 50+ and 50++ areas.

So how many skill points to "max out" the 10 skills on your two bars due to weapon swap, including all your passives and armor passives and racial passives etc.?

If you took every skill and passive in a line, it should take 20 points to max it out. Lets say that for some reason you used a weapon line on one hotbar and all the class skills on the other one. Add 11 more for the armor passives if you only used one type of armor, then you have 51 points used. Most likely it will be less than that or possibly more depending on how you build.

I know you get lots of SP from assorted dungeons, quests and other things, but 300+ SP sounds a bit high to me. Not impossible, just an open question. Don't forget that it takes 3 skyshards to yield a single SP, so around 106 SP is the max you can get from shards.

HighMarshal · February 2014

This is based on conjecture, assumptions and hearsay so take it with a grain of salt. Anymore than that and its bad for you!

+49 from levels

+106 from 320 Skyshards

+16 from dungeons (I have read somewhere that you get one from the first time you do an instanced group dungeon.

+6 from master dungeons (assuming the above is correct)

+50 from PvP ranks (Heard each ranks gives a skill point and that there are 50 of them)

+10-20 from quests and items or such (big guess here for the number of them)

= 237-250 points

Arataki · February 2014

From my experience as a closed beta tester, that isn't the case OP so you can stop worrying

As tanking is more about not dying and CC, three of the four 'classes' do very well with it. That being DK, Templar and Sorc. The Nightblade will probably have to work at it and be careful with morphs, but with the Shadow line increasing passive health and getting bonus magic resistance and armor coming out of stealth, they can pull it off adequately for the leveling dungeons.

The "best" heals for their magicka/hp ratio is the Restoration staff, which everyone can slap on. Nightblades are second best, provided you morph right and plan your character out. Templar heals are VERY costly, but hard hitting. Burst healers with not a lot of staying power if they try to heal just with their class abilities.

And you already know everyone can stealth, with the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild skill lines, I don't think Nightblades will have the monopoly on temporary invisibility for very long.

The freedom of choice is there, you just need to look twice at it.

arieste · February 2014

Originally posted by Arataki
<good info>

You seem like you know your shit, so i'll ask you the couple of questions i have about skills:

- Does it look to you like Argonian Racials are geared totally toward tanking? (+incoming heals, +max hp, +resistance)

- Also, do you happen to know (i've asked before, with no luck) if the 2.5s duration of Shadow Cloak invisibility enough to get off a bow sneak attack? I tried this a bunch of times in beta, but without any combat feedback i couldn’t tell if I was getting a sneak attack or just a regular bow attack. Since the attack took almost the entire 2.5 seconds to execute, was very hard to tell.

jidakra · February 2014

I can already tell you that DragonKnights will not be the best tanks in every scenario.

A Nightblade going siphoning + evasion, running sword&shield will probably end up being the best tank when it comes to survivability and tanking a single boss. Insane selfheal and survivability against both physical and magical damage. Only issue is holding aggro against groups of monsters.

Templar will be the best healer in terms of raw healingpower. Who is to say endgame PvE is designed around the necessity to heal a single target very hard? Maybe you will have bossmechanics where you need maximum amount of dps-output to race some sort of Enrage-timer with only minimal amounts of healing needed that can be provided by a hybrid?

PvP is definitely not about raw healing, at least small-scale pvp. Everyone who played WoW knows about the power of a healer who can assists in bursting and crowdcontrolling (Disc-priests).

What I am trying to say is, hybridbuilds always have some sort of place in PvP. When it comes to PvE, it lies within the hands of the designers to create bossmechanics that create encounters where a healer with crowdcontrol or damageabilites is the best choice for the group.

Edit: The 2.5 seconds are, by default, not enough to get off a fully charged sneakattack with the bow. However, there are passives that increase the duration as well as skills and passives that increase your attackspeed, which makes it possible to get it off.

arieste · February 2014

Originally posted by jidakra
Edit: The 2.5 seconds are, by default, not enough to get off a fully charged sneakattack with the bow. However, there are passives that increase the duration as well as skills and passives that increase your attackspeed, which makes it possible to get it off.

Finally, an answer! So, it's doable with the duration increase! My path is now clear

Arataki · February 2014

Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Arataki

You seem like you know your shit, so i'll ask you the couple of questions i have about skills:

- Does it look to you like Argonian Racials are geared totally toward tanking? (+incoming heals, +max hp, +resistance)

- Also, do you happen to know (i've asked before, with no luck) if the 2.5s duration of Shadow Cloak invisibility enough to get off a bow sneak attack? I tried this a bunch of times in beta, but without any combat feedback i couldn’t tell if I was getting a sneak attack or just a regular bow attack. Since the attack took almost the entire 2.5 seconds to execute, was very hard to tell.

The Argonian racials are interesting, about the only thing I would definitely assign to 'tanking' is the incoming heals. The resistance is kind of odd, it's mostly poison/disease isn't it? Can't say I've noticed too much of that in dungeons. Sounds more like a PvP passive to me. And they have the wacky ass Restoration staff expertise and EVERYONE can use more HP. Everyone. Like, when it comes to CC, keeping yourself alive from random mechanics is as much your responsibility as the tank's.

It's pretty easy to hit the armor and health regen cap, especially early on. So if anything it makes medium/light armor tanking with an Argonian a bit easier than it would otherwise be. At 50, tanks don't have ungodly amounts of health. 2k, 2.5? 3% on top of that isn't much when you think about it

Knotwood · February 2014

The skills you use, will be the skills you level up, as with all ES games, you have to use it to get strong in it. If you don't use it, then your going to be weak in it. Keep that in mind.

arieste · February 2014

Originally posted by Knotwood
The skills you use, will be the skills you level up, as with all ES games, you have to use it to get strong in it. If you don't use it, then your going to be weak in it. Keep that in mind.

I noticed that in the weekend beta. Think i'm going to keep 1 skill from each class line + 1 weapon skill on the hotbar when i'm soloing, just to make sure i'm using them and getting everything levelled.

Does one need to use the armor active skill in order to level up armor? Or does it level on getting hit like in Skyrim?

Eighteen16 · February 2014

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
While i really love the classtree system, there is one thing disturbing me... espescially for PvE... (Its an opinion so i could be wrong, never got past level 15)

I get this feeling that Dragon knights will allways be the best tanks... sure other classes will be acceptable to good tanks... but Dragon knights are so far the only class that has the tools to really excell in tanking

Same goes for healing, templars have such an advantage of being able to heal withouth a healingstaff, its not funny anymore.. which allows then to use a second weapon to do a bit of damage when needed and still having strong healing.

There is one thing i can see ... thats a Templar selfhealing tank.. but that might lack the crowdcontroll to perform his tanking job..

And in a PvP environment i can see many many advantages of Nightblades better stealth... doing things like being a stealth healier and such... but in PvE, they will never be the great healer people want to have at their side in instances and adventure zones

Having played both DK and Templar tanks to 15 in beta, I don't see any particular advantage that DK has. Templar has major damage reduction ultimate, magic shields that absord damage and heal you, evasion, great aoe, low cost inturupts and a large variety of healing to choose from. Both classes have a lot of tanking tools, which of them is better will largely depend on how their magika usage compares at lvl 50. NB and Sorc on other hand are extremely limited in abilities for a tank to use, if Zenimax really wants all classes to be viable at everything they'll have to be rebalancing the classes all the time.

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