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Let's talk Stealth (PVP)
Hrotha
Member UncommonPosts: 821
So what do we know so far?
We have Crouch for every class. Whichs radius is increased if you are a Khajiit or a Wood Elf and wear Medium Armor. It is the only stealth feature that is varying by day and night and also in which position you approach an enemy player. It is more efficient during night. The "Eye" icon shows how well hidden you are. Closed to turning fully invis, about to open means that you are entering an area of exposure and fully open: You are detected.
Aside of that we have abilities that meld you completely with your surroundings.
- We have Shadow Cloak from the Shadow tree of the Nightblade. Providing stealth for 2.5 seconds.
- We have Consuming Darkness from the Shadow tree. Ultimate, granting 'Slip Away' Invisibility for 12 seconds.
- We have Bat Swarm morphed into Clouding Swarm from the (World) Vampire tree. Invisibility for 5 seconds.
Utility that provide bonuses to Stealth:
- Dark Veil (passive) from the Shadow tree. Increases duration of Shadow abilities by 15%.
- Veiled Strike morphed into Concealed Weapon from the Shadow tree. Passively increases stealthed movement speed by 15% while slotted.
- Improved Sneak (passive) from the Medium Armor tree. Decreases the detection area size by 5% and cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
- Dark Stalker (passive) from the (World) Vampire tree. Increases movement speed while sneaking and allows player to enter stealth more quickly at night.
- Stealthy Bosmer / Khajiit racial. Improve Stealth radius by 3 meters. Increases damage done while stealthed by 9%.
Reserverd for future information about Crouch. Edit: Done.
Comments
I think if your a smart stealther, and can judge how the people you are watching react, it will be hard for them to see you, i love the Line of sight in this game, from the small group of friends pvping and stealthing together during the beta, it was a blast to stay hidden, and easy for me, and i was only level 15 nightblade, not hardly specced or passive set up yet..
I am going night blade, khajit, with bow, medium armor, so full on stam, mobility, stealth. So if it was easy for me to stay hidden without perks, i cannot imagine with them. as well as speed and damage increases... Let alone we get some nasty end game gear with some beast bonuses on weapons and armor.. im excited to see my character end game.
So how does Crouching work in PvP as you have experienced it? Could you stay hidden .. like real Invisibility? Or how did it work out? How did you you see other players crouching?
And in what terms did you experience LoS? Are you untargetable when crouching and out of combat?
Well first thing first. Crouch = Sneak in ES games.
Tons and tons of people have experienced PVP and used sneak. Just like the other ES games if you are sneaking and the eye is closed, you are not detected. If they eye is open they see you. Sneaking in ESO is line of sight and range based. If someone is on top of you they are going to see you. If they have modifiers/spells to detecting sneak, they are going to see you earlier if they have line of sight.
Trying to stay off to the side or behind the person you are sneaking around is the key to going undetected. There are times in pvp where I was detected, but the enemy was facing away from me... So I was able to slip back into sneak and still never be spotted.
The skills that classes have - like Shadow Cloak, is not Sneak. Those are classified as invisibility and while you are invisible you are 100% undetectable, that is why the duration on those is so short.
In PvP, you stay hidden as long as you are
a) Far away from your target
b) Behind your target
c) Not in line of sight of your target
The bonuses provided by passives are very strong, they make it so that you can be a lot closer in scenario a) and c) and a extends b) to almost being at the side of you target without getting revealed.
Extra damage provided by an attack from stealth is 100%. This attack cannot crit. Bonus-damage is only provided if you attack target from side or back, stealth-attack from the front does not give the bonus-damage.
Also, Shadow Cloak does not provide stealth, but Invisibility. That is a stronger version of stealth. You get all bonuses that stealth gives you, on top of being only visible if your opponent has magelight activated. You can also crouch while invisible and run out of range or behind line of sight, so you are back in stealth when the duration ends.
Magelight counters both stealth and invisibility, but takes up a very precious abilityslot.
You could stay hidden. Even in the open. It was easy to spy and scout.
Even though I'm used to the Elder Scrolls stealth system, I've got to say in ESO, playing almost exclusively in 3rd person view, it threwme a bit. I'm so used to seeing my character fade to a semi-transparent dark model when I sneak in other MMOs that I was having a hard time believing that the enemy couldn't see me.
i even put in some feedback that I wanted to fade-out when I was sneaking, but I doubt they'll change it since it's part of the ES look they're going for.
you just have to test the limits yourself in PVP to believe it, but you really are stealthed.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
But how does Crouching then work if for some reason you approach another player from the front? Are you stealthed until you enter a radius of detection, which is shaped like a bit " V ", where the bottom tip of this " V " represents the character's sight facing towards the broader part?
Picturing Commandos for example, like on this picture where the guard is facing south.
To sum this up: Can I get a yes on "Crouching while undetected (eye closed) is equal to complete invisibility" when you stay out of this area?
Edit: Yes, it would be only helpful if ontop of the eye - just for additional clarity add an effect over a succesful stealthed character, for the player only to see. For example a slight transparency.
I agree with what you are saying, It shows "Hidden" in the most obvious places, middle of an open area and you are watching a ton of enemy players run across the field.. your thinking to yourself "How do they not see me"
I managed to get really close to people in the open, even in front of my target by about 20 meters. I am using a bow, so i dont need to get that close to my target, with the worry that they turn around and see me. But i have had it happen to where im stalking someone and gonna gank them, and they have a stealthed buddy with them and gank me instead.. very smart tactics.
But if i jump someone, and it is a one on one fight, the odds of them beating me are slim, and thats only low level pvp, so i dont know about end game, alot of the pvp videos are Keep sieges, and waves of enemies, not one on one
*edit*
Hrothra, to answer your question, yes it is a V shaped cone in front of them, the distance varies depending on darkness, and visability. Also your stealth skill and stuff like that.
Then this is truly an outstanding Stealth system. Hands down. Looking very much forward to it.
Yes it truly is. I know it well from past TES games but I was just wondering how it plays out with actual Players. Especially them in 3rd person.
I am wondering if addons are going to mess up stealth in PvP.
I think I could potentially make an addon where you did a quick 360 and it 'marked' any stealth location that sort of flash appeared even if it was not useful for the human eye. Once you mark some just keep doing it in a tighter arc until fully revealed.
Now anyone can do that 360 move and people will probably start to seriously practice it, but an addon may potentially allow you do it way way faster than would be actually be useable by the human eye, ie. full spin in under and second while moving, play a sound when something blips etc.
This was my thinking exactly. I think if ESO wanted to polish the game a bit .....your character would fade a bit...providing you with some visual clue stealth was in effect.
I'd go the exact opposite, you should never have any clue whether you are actually stealthed. Not unless you learn telepathy.
Part of tension of stealth is the object of you attention can always be sandbagging. We should not take out the target's ability to sandbag and fake you the fuck out of your jock.
It feels like the stealth in DAoC a bit, i loved it
@OP where did you get the info about the vampire skills, have you a link for me please?
http://eldersouls.com/elder-scrolls-online/skills
World section.
so every1 has basic stealth ,and Medium armor and shadow have improved stealths passives right?
zergfest or stealth battles ?
I hope they have it in mind, in beta i saw many people go in stealth a whole group with healer and tanks was camping in stealth
.
@gestallt11 thanks alot!
Everyone can stealth to one degree or another and everyone can cast magelight (reveal all stealth AND invis in a 12m radius + extra crit).
Extremely doubtful.
Extremely probable. See what I did there?
Do you have a reason for this? Some reason the addon API can't do this or something?
Think about the most addon friendly game that currently exists, which is WOW.
They do not allow you to control your character with addons (movement). Only bots (illegal) can do that. Ever seen an addon that makes you spin around and auto target stealthed Rogues in WoW? I sure haven't.
WOW also has a macro system that can be used to compliment addons. ESO does not.
There also is no function in ESO to mark a target.
Also people go back into sneak just as quickly as you spotted them (instantly) if you spin away or they move away. A sneaking character can literally "blip" into detection range and then back out of detection range in under a second.
Addons need to be kept in check. They aren't here to play the game for you nor do they need to give game breaking advantage to another person. Thankfully nothing in your idea is plausible.
From the mouth of Zenimax
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What kind of addons will be supported by the game?
Maria Aliprando, one of ESO devs, has confirmed that the UI of the game is fully modable for LUA scripting. That means, if you have enough knowledge you can create different tools such as Damage Meters, Healing Over Time meters, tools for crafters, raiders and other useful programs.
Some ESO fans think that it will be possible to add their own items like armor or weapon using LUA but it’s misleading. Any addon for an MMO game is a tool with limited possibilities. It can modify UI or track, collect, analyze or show information. But it does not add new objects or items into the game itself. For example a Crafting add-on may display different advise for crafters or collect statistics about your crafting activity, but, it can’t add new types of ore or a new recipe into the game. You may only create programs that modify UI or collect, analyze and display different data.
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With the way the game handles stealth I am not sure it could even tell a sneaking player was spotted. You just visually see them and then aim your target cursor and attack them. It might be able to tell a sneaking player that someone saw them, but they already have that feedback through the eye icon on the screen.
The player can do the turning, the addon can do the detection. The advantage of the addon is that it would allow the player to spin almost instantly using a large/fast mouse sweep yet still detect people via markers and sounds. All it need to do is paint a health bar at the last location it "saw" some one.
You don't need know precisely where they are, detect then soon enough by doing it often and they simply will not be able to move out of the way of your next sweep fast enough.
An addon should allow you to do this fast enough that no one will ever sneak up on you if you do it regularly. Since the idea would be that a player simply sweeps his mouse in an extremely fast 360 you just form a habit of doing it regularly and you are pretty much gonna find just about anyone and then triangulate on the second pass.
First pass gives you the general direction. Second sweep you face them. Do it fast enough and they have no chance to move out of LOS. The whole point of the addon is to let you do a first pass without even bothering to use your eyes and almost instantly be able to get to the second pass with enough precision to get them in LOS. Since you can rotate thousands of times faster than they can move and the only real limit is what your eye can actually see, having the add on do the "seeing" by painting a health that does disappear make this easily possible.