Originally posted by Jemcrystal Okay, I see both sides but I land on in favor of porting to dungeons/instances. Reason is there are far more dungeons in games than there ever was. Getting there, well...
I disagree. I wonder how many dungeons EverQuest is up to these days. With their 20th expansion in 15 years, they are up to 375 zones. Many of these zones have dungeons in them. I wish I had a solid number, but trying to find an "EQ dungeon listing" or a "comparison of dungeon lists in MMOs" through Google got me nowhere. They had a whole expansion mainly about dungeons called "Lost Dungeons of Norrath" (LDoN), where dungeons started to get instanced.
I think most MMOs today (recent releases) have maybe a couple of handfuls of dungeons (this is my speculation, not fact), WoW haveing a few more than that due to longevity. I don't have the solid numbers to back up my statement, but I have a feeling that EQ would put any other newer MMO to shame in number of dungeons in the game.
Looking at Allakhazam's zone listing, trying to recall which zones were dungeons, I am up to ~40 through the Vellious (2nd) expansion. There are still 18 more expansions to look through The thing that struck me while looking is that these dungeons were not JUST dungeons. They usually had quests associated with them, and/or quests within them. Also, there is a HUGE amount of variety in these dungeons. I don't think there is a recent MMO that can dare to compare with these numbers, though I could very well be wrong here.
What I am saying is that today's MMOs do NOT have a massive amount of dungeons. Not in comparison, at least. I don't buy the "There are so many dungeons!" excuse.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I strongly dislike it, so much it makes me feel certain games have become unplayable partly due to said feature. If they only found you a group it would be okay, but somehow when the travel is taken away, the game becomes a sort of dungeon clearing fest all of a sudden. It really doesn't feel like it belongs in the genre.
What I am saying is that today's MMOs do NOT have a massive amount of dungeons. Not in comparison, at least. I don't buy the "There are so many dungeons!" excuse.
I agree. I don't need any excuse to like instance porting to dungeons beyond .. walking again and again to the same place is tedious and not fun .. for me.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal Okay, I see both sides but I land on in favor of porting to dungeons/instances. Reason is there are far more dungeons in games than there ever was. Getting there, well...
I disagree. I wonder how many dungeons EverQuest is up to these days. With their 20th expansion in 15 years, they are up to 375 zones. Many of these zones have dungeons in them. I wish I had a solid number, but trying to find an "EQ dungeon listing" or a "comparison of dungeon lists in MMOs" through Google got me nowhere. They had a whole expansion mainly about dungeons called "Lost Dungeons of Norrath" (LDoN), where dungeons started to get instanced.
I think most MMOs today (recent releases) have maybe a couple of handfuls of dungeons (this is my speculation, not fact), WoW haveing a few more than that due to longevity. I don't have the solid numbers to back up my statement, but I have a feeling that EQ would put any other newer MMO to shame in number of dungeons in the game.
Looking at Allakhazam's zone listing, trying to recall which zones were dungeons, I am up to ~40 through the Vellious (2nd) expansion. There are still 18 more expansions to look through The thing that struck me while looking is that these dungeons were not JUST dungeons. They usually had quests associated with them, and/or quests within them. Also, there is a HUGE amount of variety in these dungeons. I don't think there is a recent MMO that can dare to compare with these numbers, though I could very well be wrong here.
What I am saying is that today's MMOs do NOT have a massive amount of dungeons. Not in comparison, at least. I don't buy the "There are so many dungeons!" excuse.
I don't enjoy the insta-porting mechanics, personally, but I remember why they're there.
Trying to lead a raid through Siren's Grotto in EQ1 was the most frustrating thing ever. Having sixty or seventy competent people waiting around at Temple of Veeshan for the better part of two hours while rogues and necromancers recovered corpses because the other thirty-some-odd people couldn't remember the way through the zone was just... argh.
And it only got worse with later expansions, even with the porting stones in Plane of Knowledge. Getting people through Omens of War zones was a nightmare of epic proportions. When the World of Warcraft beta finally had the NDA drop and everyone found out that there were meeting stones and raid instances you didn't have to spend two hours clearing trash in every day, and actually saved your progress, they were pretty happy. I don't recall anyone NOT being happy about that.
Long-term side-effect has obviously been the degeneration of the greater MMO community, at least on the PvE side of things. So I'm not sure the trade was worth it, but I remember why it was made and I remember thinking it was a wonderful idea at the time.
Here's the thing: convenience is being overdone. Its been a huge slippery slope, I am telling you.
There's a fine line where convenience and immersion are at a good balance. I think World of Warcraft almost reached that balance in it's early days. Today is when convenience is being overdone throughout most of the genre though.
Yep.. that slippery slope started years ago when Blizzard and others caved into the lobby gamer.. They couldn't be bothered with weight encumbrance issues.. Nor could they be bothered with food and drink requirements.. Naturally that lead into travel discomfort and LFD button.. Then you add in little things like respec, re this.. or re that.. From where I sit, this has effected the PvE game to where everything is being homogenized into one small pool, with instant gratification..
Mixed. I recall the days of utter frustration at waiting an hour or more for PUG members to get their shit together and get to the instance...only to have them blurb 'soz can't mother calling me for dinner'<logout> after 5 minutes of getting there. At least with instant instance porting you got the whole thing done before turds could leave you in the lurch or it wasn't such a big deal if they did. However, it is obviously a HUGE immersion killer and rapidly sapped instances of any expeditionary feeling whatsoever, making them feel about as adventurous as popping down to the shops to get milk. At a push I'd say it was a bad thing overall as even with frustrating time wastery of having to get to the instance entrance, if you make things too easy, the game ultimately dies in your mind anyway.
Its a mixed bag for me, On one hand i sure do appreciate the ability to just get going with my group, on the other getting to the dungeon was part of the challenge. It kind of take something away from the game though, and pulls people from the world.
I guess overall i am against it, while i wont be turned off from a game if it does port me there, i do appreciate the journey more than the end.
If being able to skip exploration destroys the reason to explore, then that game's exploration sucked in the first place. Games with good exploration give you a reason to go out and explore other than "it's on the way to a dungeon".
As far as being able to port to instances, maybe not directly inside but somewhere close is cool with me. Getting a group and clearing the zone takes enough time and is enough of a challenge without having to worry about getting there. Again, if your game doesn't provide enough challenge in clearing the instance itself, then THAT is what needs to be fixed, not making some kind of additional grind just to get to the zone.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Instant porting to instances is one of worst thing ever happened to this genre, especially if it's done in a game menu. It might work in an action game but not in an mmorpg.
Queueing belongs to lobby games and they are not mmorpgs.
I am not fond of it either because it is asocial, especially combined with an LFG tool that is game-wide. If you come across people you really enjoyed playing with but are from a different server, you will most likely never see them again. You can't blacklist stupid players and force them to be nicer. It negates class abilities that could port people from A to B. But also, it is just a little TOO convenient. In other words, people have gone from one extreme, to another, and then back again.
People used to complain that they would have to wait, sometimes for a long time, to form a group for a tank or for a healer. So some things were thrown in to streamline the process: making more hybrid characters that are viable to spread out core abilities, making it easier to get to the dungeon, etc. However, it is so easy now to get to the dungeon (since you get there instantly) now all you do is wait around in a city for your queue to pop. How is that any different from waiting around for a healer/tank to become available like in the old games? I don't know about you guys, but I feel that waiting around in a city, lobby, whatever is extremely boring. I would rather go down a well-trodden path with my group to get to the dungeon, and perhaps aggro mobs or PvP along the way.
If all you want is a combat lobby, then they're great. I personally like to explore dungeons in context of the world and lore -- I want to know where they are and why I am going there. What I really hate are the random dungeon runs, where you queue up and are planted in a random dungeon with a bunch of random people -- I see games actually rewarding random dungeons over doing regular ones (looking at you, WoW) -- that's extreme Disneylandification.
I understand why people like them -- they are strapped for time, etc. etc. and it is possible to simply avoid them and find a good guild or friends to group with people of like mind.
What I advocate is a middle ground, an LFG tool that understands location. It would help you find groups in the vicinity/location of the dungeon you are near in the world. Once that's done, let the party group and talk to each other and do the actual travel to the dungeon. On top of that add selections that allow you to pick the type of run you want -- gear hunt, roleplay, casual, speed run, etc.
If you force me to play a game with instances I'd say I like it. Instances are a pox on the genre though. Forming the dungeons into content meant for a full group and only a full group is just bad for the game. In the old days you could take a friend and go tool around in a dungeon and just avoid the nastier spots. You could form a group organically because you didn't need a full balanced group to do the entrance mobs in the dungeon. Heck you could even solo a few spots in each dungeon while you wait for friends to log on. GW2 as an example has basically ruined dungeons completely for me, they are no fun at all. WoW at least had the normal dungeon mobs toned down where a group of 2 or 3 can progress somewhat at level even if it isn't efficient.
In games where they don't balance the game around a full group you can spend time in a dungeon while waiting to form a group and not be bored, you can still accomplish things. When you take the instance path you pretty much bog the game down into must be in full group to have fun in which case forming that full group and getting to the dungeon in the most efficient way possible becomes important.
I like it. Before WoW implemented it I remember wasting time trying to get a group together. Then trying to get to the damn dungeon only to have some ass hat leave right as everyone was making to the entrance. Now maybe if they had an Auto group thing and did not teleport you had to run that would be ok (provide a Warlock summon type ability was available.)
I have never seen it done since but there was a time when locations and POIs were a part of economy. In UO we had rune stones and they were blank until a player with the proper skill would mark a location on the rune stone. Then players would cast a very basic recall spell on that stone a teleport to that location.
I have always felt that was the best system as one could sell full rune books filled with various locations and players could set ther own spots. It worked really well for everyone but it also encouraged exploration for those who wanted it and insta travel for thos who didnt and trade yes trade for those who wanted that as well. Good stuff!
Although I am very interested in the geometry of worlds, I actually have no strong preference for one method of moving around over another ... UO, WoW, DDO, EvE ... they all made sense to me within the context of the games.
But does it matter? They'll keep on doing this anyway.
Because more people like it than those who don't. It is really about preferences of the majority.
Personally i won't play a game without instant porting .. but hey ... i did not demand devs to cater to my preferences. If they do, who am i to argue? I will just enjoy it.
But does it matter? They'll keep on doing this anyway.
They'll keep doing it because the overwhelming majority of players want it. However, if you don't like it, the solution is easy, just don't use it. Feel free to walk everywhere. Is there a real problem here?
Nah they should have only included the current LFG system on pve servers or rp servers not on the pvp one.
They should even only tweak pvp servers for pvp content wise when it comes to stats on gear or on players.
They should do the same for pve servers. Raiders should not have anything to say when it comes to stats fo rgear or players on pvp servers and same applies the other way around.
LFG system should only be teleporting players at start of a map and not inside dungeons on pvp servers. Current system is designed for pve servers not pvp servers. But again you have all the raiders on pvp servers talking like they know more then the pvp players what a joke.
The more accessible and stimulating mmorpg's become the more people play them. Gone are the days of hardcore gamers doing corpse runs, running for 15 mins through aggro zones to meet up with a group who is waiting for them guiding them through the process. Nope it's fast food nowadays. In and out, feel good at first, but stomach ache later.
But does it matter? They'll keep on doing this anyway.
They'll keep doing it because the overwhelming majority of players want it. However, if you don't like it, the solution is easy, just don't use it. Feel free to walk everywhere. Is there a real problem here?
I understand what you mean, but it simply doesn't work that way.
You can ignore features and mechanics in a single player game. But it won't work in MMOs for many reasons.
I miss the social interaction, but waiting on people to fly across half an hour of terrain or more is boring, for those who actually showed up and were there, it is just watching tv or playing other games time.
Much like, I miss the lack of out of combat mana regen/health on Everquest, used to take like half an hour to regen mana, and the entire raid had to sit and wait. That wasn't really fun for anyone, but meditating sure did cause conversations for the time you had to spend sitting and waiting!
Blizzard took away "Have Group will Travel", however did that support social communities? No! They use warlocks to summon, or people make the entire raid wait for them to get there! There aren't really any fun conversations like their used to be, because they took away challenge and made games a hotbar rotation of spam key clicking. You can't have a conversation, when people are busy mashing buttons, you have to slow down combat, and make spells / abilities on a long cast timer/few abilities mostly auto attack like Everquest 1.
That is why people talked on Everquest 1, there wasn't any spell haste focus, there wasn't any mana regen (clarity 1 and 2 sucked, there was no in combat mana regen flowing thought for the most part, and there were no AA's at the start), and there were pure melees (rogue, monk, warrior) who didn't do much of anything 'cept a few abilities and auto attack!
Raid bosses always get perma camped by the same raiding guild, they are pointless, unless you put a lock-out timer and force that guild to quit killing them, the same guild killed Avatars for over 6 months on Everquest 2, no other guild had a change to learn the encounter, because after they wiped it was fair game for the other guild to take it. How is designing raid content for only 1 guild worth developer time and resources? It isn't. They are better off designing instances that thousands of guilds can enjoy, instead of only 1 guild,.
However, there should be elite group mobs and content that can't be soloed, just not raid bosses. Elite bosss rare names that were epic x 2 used to hang out in Thundering Steppes on Everquest 2. People had to group up and make raids for that water bubble rare and this other rare with a lot of adds that would path around near the entrance to ruins of varsoon.
What kills overland grouping/rare name epics however, is the mentor system. It is so overpowering that a max level can show up and solo it . Even if they had rare spawn names a level 95/100 could solo it, so what is the fun in that? Mentoring down only does so much, they still tend to be 20 times stronger than an actual low level is.
Comments
I think most MMOs today (recent releases) have maybe a couple of handfuls of dungeons (this is my speculation, not fact), WoW haveing a few more than that due to longevity. I don't have the solid numbers to back up my statement, but I have a feeling that EQ would put any other newer MMO to shame in number of dungeons in the game.
Looking at Allakhazam's zone listing, trying to recall which zones were dungeons, I am up to ~40 through the Vellious (2nd) expansion. There are still 18 more expansions to look through
The thing that struck me while looking is that these dungeons were not JUST dungeons. They usually had quests associated with them, and/or quests within them. Also, there is a HUGE amount of variety in these dungeons. I don't think there is a recent MMO that can dare to compare with these numbers, though I could very well be wrong here.
What I am saying is that today's MMOs do NOT have a massive amount of dungeons. Not in comparison, at least. I don't buy the "There are so many dungeons!" excuse.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The Weekly Wizardry blog
I agree. I don't need any excuse to like instance porting to dungeons beyond .. walking again and again to the same place is tedious and not fun .. for me.
so very true!
+1
Here's the thing: convenience is being overdone. Its been a huge slippery slope, I am telling you.
There's a fine line where convenience and immersion are at a good balance. I think World of Warcraft almost reached that balance in it's early days. Today is when convenience is being overdone throughout most of the genre though.
The Weekly Wizardry blog
Its a mixed bag for me, On one hand i sure do appreciate the ability to just get going with my group, on the other getting to the dungeon was part of the challenge. It kind of take something away from the game though, and pulls people from the world.
I guess overall i am against it, while i wont be turned off from a game if it does port me there, i do appreciate the journey more than the end.
If being able to skip exploration destroys the reason to explore, then that game's exploration sucked in the first place. Games with good exploration give you a reason to go out and explore other than "it's on the way to a dungeon".
As far as being able to port to instances, maybe not directly inside but somewhere close is cool with me. Getting a group and clearing the zone takes enough time and is enough of a challenge without having to worry about getting there. Again, if your game doesn't provide enough challenge in clearing the instance itself, then THAT is what needs to be fixed, not making some kind of additional grind just to get to the zone.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Instant porting to instances is one of worst thing ever happened to this genre, especially if it's done in a game menu. It might work in an action game but not in an mmorpg.
Queueing belongs to lobby games and they are not mmorpgs.
I am not fond of it either because it is asocial, especially combined with an LFG tool that is game-wide. If you come across people you really enjoyed playing with but are from a different server, you will most likely never see them again. You can't blacklist stupid players and force them to be nicer. It negates class abilities that could port people from A to B. But also, it is just a little TOO convenient. In other words, people have gone from one extreme, to another, and then back again.
People used to complain that they would have to wait, sometimes for a long time, to form a group for a tank or for a healer. So some things were thrown in to streamline the process: making more hybrid characters that are viable to spread out core abilities, making it easier to get to the dungeon, etc. However, it is so easy now to get to the dungeon (since you get there instantly) now all you do is wait around in a city for your queue to pop. How is that any different from waiting around for a healer/tank to become available like in the old games? I don't know about you guys, but I feel that waiting around in a city, lobby, whatever is extremely boring. I would rather go down a well-trodden path with my group to get to the dungeon, and perhaps aggro mobs or PvP along the way.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
If all you want is a combat lobby, then they're great. I personally like to explore dungeons in context of the world and lore -- I want to know where they are and why I am going there. What I really hate are the random dungeon runs, where you queue up and are planted in a random dungeon with a bunch of random people -- I see games actually rewarding random dungeons over doing regular ones (looking at you, WoW) -- that's extreme Disneylandification.
I understand why people like them -- they are strapped for time, etc. etc. and it is possible to simply avoid them and find a good guild or friends to group with people of like mind.
What I advocate is a middle ground, an LFG tool that understands location. It would help you find groups in the vicinity/location of the dungeon you are near in the world. Once that's done, let the party group and talk to each other and do the actual travel to the dungeon. On top of that add selections that allow you to pick the type of run you want -- gear hunt, roleplay, casual, speed run, etc.
If you force me to play a game with instances I'd say I like it. Instances are a pox on the genre though. Forming the dungeons into content meant for a full group and only a full group is just bad for the game. In the old days you could take a friend and go tool around in a dungeon and just avoid the nastier spots. You could form a group organically because you didn't need a full balanced group to do the entrance mobs in the dungeon. Heck you could even solo a few spots in each dungeon while you wait for friends to log on. GW2 as an example has basically ruined dungeons completely for me, they are no fun at all. WoW at least had the normal dungeon mobs toned down where a group of 2 or 3 can progress somewhat at level even if it isn't efficient.
In games where they don't balance the game around a full group you can spend time in a dungeon while waiting to form a group and not be bored, you can still accomplish things. When you take the instance path you pretty much bog the game down into must be in full group to have fun in which case forming that full group and getting to the dungeon in the most efficient way possible becomes important.
I vote against instant dungeon portings.
But does it matter? They'll keep on doing this anyway.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
I have never seen it done since but there was a time when locations and POIs were a part of economy. In UO we had rune stones and they were blank until a player with the proper skill would mark a location on the rune stone. Then players would cast a very basic recall spell on that stone a teleport to that location.
I have always felt that was the best system as one could sell full rune books filled with various locations and players could set ther own spots. It worked really well for everyone but it also encouraged exploration for those who wanted it and insta travel for thos who didnt and trade yes trade for those who wanted that as well. Good stuff!
Although I am very interested in the geometry of worlds, I actually have no strong preference for one method of moving around over another ... UO, WoW, DDO, EvE ... they all made sense to me within the context of the games.
Simple .. just rename the genre ... problem solved.
Because more people like it than those who don't. It is really about preferences of the majority.
Personally i won't play a game without instant porting .. but hey ... i did not demand devs to cater to my preferences. If they do, who am i to argue? I will just enjoy it.
They'll keep doing it because the overwhelming majority of players want it. However, if you don't like it, the solution is easy, just don't use it. Feel free to walk everywhere. Is there a real problem here?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Nah they should have only included the current LFG system on pve servers or rp servers not on the pvp one.
They should even only tweak pvp servers for pvp content wise when it comes to stats on gear or on players.
They should do the same for pve servers. Raiders should not have anything to say when it comes to stats fo rgear or players on pvp servers and same applies the other way around.
LFG system should only be teleporting players at start of a map and not inside dungeons on pvp servers. Current system is designed for pve servers not pvp servers. But again you have all the raiders on pvp servers talking like they know more then the pvp players what a joke.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
I understand what you mean, but it simply doesn't work that way.
You can ignore features and mechanics in a single player game. But it won't work in MMOs for many reasons.
I miss the social interaction, but waiting on people to fly across half an hour of terrain or more is boring, for those who actually showed up and were there, it is just watching tv or playing other games time.
Much like, I miss the lack of out of combat mana regen/health on Everquest, used to take like half an hour to regen mana, and the entire raid had to sit and wait. That wasn't really fun for anyone, but meditating sure did cause conversations for the time you had to spend sitting and waiting!
Blizzard took away "Have Group will Travel", however did that support social communities? No! They use warlocks to summon, or people make the entire raid wait for them to get there! There aren't really any fun conversations like their used to be, because they took away challenge and made games a hotbar rotation of spam key clicking. You can't have a conversation, when people are busy mashing buttons, you have to slow down combat, and make spells / abilities on a long cast timer/few abilities mostly auto attack like Everquest 1.
That is why people talked on Everquest 1, there wasn't any spell haste focus, there wasn't any mana regen (clarity 1 and 2 sucked, there was no in combat mana regen flowing thought for the most part, and there were no AA's at the start), and there were pure melees (rogue, monk, warrior) who didn't do much of anything 'cept a few abilities and auto attack!
Raid bosses always get perma camped by the same raiding guild, they are pointless, unless you put a lock-out timer and force that guild to quit killing them, the same guild killed Avatars for over 6 months on Everquest 2, no other guild had a change to learn the encounter, because after they wiped it was fair game for the other guild to take it. How is designing raid content for only 1 guild worth developer time and resources? It isn't. They are better off designing instances that thousands of guilds can enjoy, instead of only 1 guild,.
However, there should be elite group mobs and content that can't be soloed, just not raid bosses. Elite bosss rare names that were epic x 2 used to hang out in Thundering Steppes on Everquest 2. People had to group up and make raids for that water bubble rare and this other rare with a lot of adds that would path around near the entrance to ruins of varsoon.
What kills overland grouping/rare name epics however, is the mentor system. It is so overpowering that a max level can show up and solo it . Even if they had rare spawn names a level 95/100 could solo it, so what is the fun in that? Mentoring down only does so much, they still tend to be 20 times stronger than an actual low level is.